Is Socialism failing?

[CCCPneubauten]

Today in class I was told by my philosophy teacher that socialism is failing, and he gave good evidence about France and Germany and Sweden to show that they are going down the tubes...any rebutals?

Thanks

[YKTMX]

Well, just a little one: those countries aren't socialist!!

All those countries run a specific, more equitable form of capitalism - but still capitalism.

[CCCPneubauten]

But still, the general feeling is that socislism can't/couldn't work. I just need some evidence that it could. I would consider Sweden socialist, or close to it, wouldn't you?

[Guerrilla22]

Well your teacher doesn't know what he's talking about. Last time I checked France and Germany weren't socialist. Sweden isn't either, they're considered to be reformed socilaist, which is not the same as USSR or Cuban socialism. Also Sweden is in a lot better shape than the uS. They have the world's highest standard of living. The US is going downhill, if anything. It's economy has been struggling for the last 5 years and the dollar recently hit like a 30 year low in value.

[bolshevik butcher]

Well i think that venezuela is progressing towards socialism and that's being a run away success just now.

[NE_Liberal]

Sweden is a Social Democracy. Sweden also has the highest standard of living in the world. It also donates a large portion of its national revenue to humanitarian aid(around 1%), while america is around .1%. So in that sense your teacher is wrong some socialist ideals(nationalized health care) are alive and well. It seems like when a socialist idea gets adopted it is no longer called socialist, because it is such a bad word in mainstream politics.

On the other hand, there has yet to be a successful complete command economy, like the USSR. Even Cuba is not a complete command economy.

These issues aren't black and white like many people think they are.

[bcbm]

On the other hand, there has yet to be a successful complete command economy, like the USSR. Even Cuba is not a complete command economy.

Is a command economy neccessary for socialism/communism?

[Hiero]

Since you have got that cleared up, you shouldn't view things in failing or succeding and think that is final. The class struggle is a long struggle which can go either way. In former socialist countries industry was in private hands, then it was placed in public hands and now it is in private hands.

The transformation from private to public happens in a shorter period, but when it goes back to private it takes a longer time.

So you can't assume that once socialism is reversed it is reversed for ever, nor should anyone be disheartened when this happens.

[Guest1]

A planned economy is necessary for any longterm economic redistribution.

Only a planned economy can gather all the resources necessary and direct them towards reinventing the social system and eliminating poverty, hunger, homelessness and waste.

[Zingu]

France and Germany Socialist? Haha...funny.


They're Social Demcractic, Capitalism with a human face.

[NE_Liberal]

Originally posted by black banner black [email protected] 15 2005, 01:31 AM

On the other hand, there has yet to be a successful complete command economy, like the USSR. Even Cuba is not a complete command economy.

Is a command economy neccessary for socialism/communism?
Can you explain to me how Socialism/comunism would work without a command economy?

[The Grey Blur]

Today in class I was told by my philosophy teacher that socialism is failing, and he gave good evidence about France and Germany and Sweden to show that they are going down the tubes...any rebutals?
I don't think you're gonna get an answer on this comrade. I can sympathize with you; you posted a question and it seems to have degenerated into a row completely unrelated to your question...*sigh*...c'est la vie en RevLeft...

Anyway....I think you should check out the 'Highschool Commie Guide' thread in a certain forum - it's a brilliant teacher vs. student thread...got most of my debate ideas of it...

BTW (how could I forget?) - www.redstar2000papers.com

[Janus]

No socialist theory isn't failing, it's being adopted by the capitalists in order to appease the masses. However, socialism is decaying as can be seen by North Korea and Cuba. Perhaps this is due to corruption, greed, a lack of dynamic leadership, or all these factors. After all communism looks perfect on paper, it's just that in practice the human factor corrupts and damages it to a degree. The problem is that many people are unable to think abstractedly about the good of the community and therefore, are unable to believe in the terms cooperation and equality. Unless major changes are made to address these problems, much of the world will remain oppressed and under the heel of capitalism and poverty.

[bcbm]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2005, 02:05 PM

Can you explain to me how Socialism/comunism would work without a command economy?
What exactly do we mean by command economy, state-controlled?

And I wasn't trying to counter you, I was actually curious.

[JKP]

For inquiries on communist economies please read this.

http://www.redstar2000papers.com/theory.ph...rt_from=&ucat=& (http://www.redstar2000papers.com/theory.php?subaction=showfull&id=1083202823&archive=&cnshow=headlines&start_from=&ucat=&)

And regarding North Korea, they are not communist. It's just insulting to relate communism with a dictatorship.

Communism, is a free and democratic society and has no state.

[Stonewall]

Sweden is reformed socialism [social capitalism] and it's working very well. Not only does Sweden have one of the most equitable and most prosperous economies in the world, it also is one of the most technologically advanced [with among the world’s highest spending on scientific R&D in proportion to Gross Domestic Product] and it has among the world’s most educated and productive workforce. With an unemployment rate of 5.4%, they have an unemployment rate lower than the EU average and the United States [the alternative measures of underutilization of labor: http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.t12.htm indicates the U.S.A. has an unemployment rate of 8.7%! Sweden’s standard of measuring unemployment is more transparent and honest their our own “official” unemployment rate 5.0%. Sweden’s official rate is calculated like our U6. In addition, Sweden, while being the wealthiest country in the world, manages to turn a trade surplus and a fiscal budgetary surplus [while the U.S. has a trade deficit that’s breaching 7% of GDP and a budgetary deficit that’s over 4.1% of GDP]. Their 10 year treasury bond yielded 3.29% on November 2, 2005 vs. our own rate of 4.6% and while our personal savings rate is negative [Americans are withdrawing more from their savings accounts than they’re depositing], Swedish citizens have a strongly positive rate of savings.

[Stonewall]

Your philosophy teacher is an idiot like my sociology professor [he claims the death penalty is “ok” even if innocent people die - “collateral damage” - and that the death penalty discourages murder - like people really “think about the consequences” before they kill somebody]. He also says it’s proper to “legislate morality”, we did it since our country’s founding. He’s a total retard and doesn’t have factual data to back his claims up.

[Wanted Man]

How are France and Germany socialist at all? French people are only allowed to choose between the right-wing liberal Chirac, and the closet nazi Le Pen. Also, the German SPD isn't exactly socialist.

[Stonewall]

The German SPD is cool =)

[Jimmie Higgins]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14 2005, 08:41 PM
Today in class I was told by my philosophy teacher that socialism is failing, and he gave good evidence about France and Germany and Sweden to show that they are going down the tubes...any rebutals?

Thanks
As other people have pointed out, these countries are "social-democratic" not socilaist.

Ironically, France and Germany, have been instituting neo-liberal "de/reforms" and cutting social programs since the 90s (not sure about sweeden) and so, if anything is failing, it's neo-liberalism.

[RaiseYourVoice]

Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2005, 11:38 AM
The German SPD is cool =)
You're kidding right? The SPD USED to be a workers party but isnt for decades now, they were under chancelor schroeder just another way to oppress working class and help big business, they just put into effect pro-capital reforms and justified them by being "unavoidable". In germany voting SPD, CDU, Greens or FPD makes close to no difference for the class struggle.

Also the SPD is not willing to join forces with left wing organisations or the left party, actually they are spreading lies about the left to keep the workers quite. Nothing much "socialist" about them.

Back to topic:

Socialism isnt being practised in germany or france, it's privatisation and neo-liberalism, sweden on the other hand is working quite well. So the only thing failing is neo-liberalism and cappie crap, tell you teacher to stop spreading lies and best make him look stupid in front of the class, thats best thing to do with propaganda cappies

[Stonewall]

The SPD is still the most progressive party in Germany and is still working to maintain and preserve the German welfare state.

[*PRC*Kensei]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14 2005, 08:41 PM
Today in class I was told by my philosophy teacher that socialism is failing, and he gave good evidence about France and Germany and Sweden to show that they are going down the tubes...any rebutals?

Thanks
???

there IS no socialsm in those country's, capitalism is failing !!!

philosophy teachers always tend to blaim socialism for evrything. including my teacher, but he know me :P , and my reaction ;)

and remember: Socialism WILL safe us.

[norwegian commie]

I would consider Sweden socialist, or close to it, wouldn't you?

WTF no, the sosial democracy is a completly different matter!
they are better than the all-over cappies, but can not be called socialists!
Norway too have social democrats in gouverment now after the election.
would you call norwy socialists? its a fucking long way to it! (besides the only way to intrroduce socialismin norway is a military coup :lol: , and that would be overthroun pretty fast)

You gotta read a bit moore about the socialist ideas and compare it to sweden.
i cant say its anything close

plus sweden is actually funtioning good.
at least for the winning sides of society, aint no dictatorship of the proletariat there!

[NE_Liberal]

Originally posted by black banner black gun+Nov 17 2005, 12:54 AM--> (black banner black gun @ Nov 17 2005, 12:54 AM)
[email protected] 16 2005, 02:05 PM

Can you explain to me how Socialism/comunism would work without a command economy?
What exactly do we mean by command economy, state-controlled?

And I wasn't trying to counter you, I was actually curious. [/b]
Yes, as in state controlled. On the way to communism(no government), at least for a while the economy must be state run according to socialists/communists.

[NE_Liberal]

Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2005, 06:31 AM
Sweden is reformed socialism [social capitalism] and it's working very well. Not only does Sweden have one of the most equitable and most prosperous economies in the world, it also is one of the most technologically advanced [with among the world’s highest spending on scientific R&D in proportion to Gross Domestic Product] and it has among the world’s most educated and productive workforce. With an unemployment rate of 5.4%, they have an unemployment rate lower than the EU average and the United States [the alternative measures of underutilization of labor: http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.t12.htm indicates the U.S.A. has an unemployment rate of 8.7%! Sweden’s standard of measuring unemployment is more transparent and honest their our own “official” unemployment rate 5.0%. Sweden’s official rate is calculated like our U6. In addition, Sweden, while being the wealthiest country in the world, manages to turn a trade surplus and a fiscal budgetary surplus [while the U.S. has a trade deficit that’s breaching 7% of GDP and a budgetary deficit that’s over 4.1% of GDP]. Their 10 year treasury bond yielded 3.29% on November 2, 2005 vs. our own rate of 4.6% and while our personal savings rate is negative [Americans are withdrawing more from their savings accounts than they’re depositing], Swedish citizens have a strongly positive rate of savings.
Good Post! Even more troubling in America is the rate of UNDEREMPLOYMENT. This is a real product of unchecked capitalism. This is lower wages and no benefits because workers can not gain full time status. This puts a HUGE hurt on lower and middle classes, and makes large corporations very wealthy.

[DisIllusion]

Good Post! Even more troubling in America is the rate of UNDEREMPLOYMENT. This is a real product of unchecked capitalism. This is lower wages and no benefits because workers can not gain full time status. This puts a HUGE hurt on lower and middle classes, and makes large corporations very wealthy.

If we let capitalism run unchecked, we'd still be owning slaves. And yeah, what do the corporations care if they're hurting the middle and lower classes, they're "expanding profits".

[London Communist]

Today in class I was told by my philosophy teacher that socialism is failing, and he gave good evidence about France and Germany and Sweden to show that they are going down the tubes...any rebutals?

Like YouKnowTheyMurderedX said, France, Sweden and Germany are NOT socialist.

France and Germany would NOT even classify as 'social democratic' anymore.

Whether Sweden is 'going down the tubes' is very much open to debate, I mean the US economy, or US society for that matter is hardly in a era of confidence, prosperity or optimism.

I can see from your post that you are relatively new to the different concepts and ideologies that make up the political Left, but don't be fooled that 'social democracy' has ANYTHING to do with socialism, communism, anarchism or any other proper egalitarian and liberationist ideology.

Your 'philosophy teacher' seems to be an ignoramus and a reactionary shit who is in need of some much needed education himself, as his level ignorance would shame even a child.

Did anyone in your class challenge this nonsense that your 'teacher' ranted on about?

If a student/s did show disagreement with your 'teacher' then I suggest you talk to them and work on a clear rebuttal of the reactionary drivel of your 'teacher'.

Here are a few points Ill give you to help you put your counter-opinion to your co-called 'teacher':

*Socialism and/or communism means that ALL property ownership is in the hands of the people who work on it (a factory being run by the workers who work there). Socialism and/or communism is NOT having a FEW industries owned by the state and the rest owned by private companies, which is the system in operation in ALL European countries.

*The means of production (the method and system by which goods are produced and distributed) are owned by certain individuals (capitalists/owner classes) at the expense of the MAJORITY of individuals (workers/proletarians). This IS the system in operation in ALL European countries.

*Social security, the welfare state, free healthcare/education existing in a country with a capitalist economy, does NOT mean that country is socialist. The welfare state is there simply to keep those who LOSE OUT under capitalism from going into such LOW levels of poverty that they would start to REVOLT.

*HIGHLIGHT THE MANY FAILINGS OF US SOCIETY, A FREE MARKET CAPITALIST ONE WITH LITTLE AND NEAR NOTHING IN A WELFARE STATE!

*Americas DEEP levels of poverty, homelessness, unemployment, low paid work, ack of porper union representation for workers, attack on civil rights.

*The MANY recent corporate scandals in America; Halliburton, Enron, Martha Stewart and the Conrad Black share holding scandal.

*I take it your 'teacher' decided to have a go at France with their recent urban revolts in Paris and other places? If so, remind your 'teacher' of the Los Angeles revolt of April 1992, which was MORE violent than the Paris revolt of 2005.

The rantings of a reactionary fool of a 'teacher' may seem petty and best ignored, but 'teachers' and the 'education' system under capitalism serve as tools to construct conformist mindsets in young people, to turn them into passive consumers and unquestioning wage slaves.

It is vital, for yourself and for the other students at your school/college, that you RESIST the ruling class ideology that the 'education' system and their 'teachers' enforces upon young people.

Revolution and class warfare are a day to day process that have MANY more years ahead, before the oppressed and the working class attain their victory.

Fighting for the battle of ideas and the battle of minds is a CRUCIAL element in the process of revolution.

That means countering the so-called 'logic' and 'truths' that reactionary 'teachers' enforce on all of us.

[Stonewall]

While I believe genuine socialism to be an ideal, most employees don’t have the knowledge, experience and expertise to manage a business. Most workers know nothing regarding business administration, financial accounting, investing in capital equipment, machines and so forth.

In addition, workers will oppose anything that goes against their interests. Had we had socialism, personal computers would never have been incorporated into offices, as many secretaries and office workers lost their jobs. Steel manufacturing wouldn’t be as automated as it is today, as had we been operating under worker’s socialism, the steel industry would resemble the 1950’s. As technology and innovation are a threat to a job position, workers would oppose it at every turn. Worker control of the means of production would be inefficient, technologically regressive and would lead to a stagnation of living conditions.

In addition, profit serves a purpose. Profit is the difference between production cost and price sold. Profit has an important purpose and that purpose is to increase production by building new factories, stores, offices and distribution centers, funding scientific research, investing in technology and innovation and in making production more efficient through automation and mechanization. Unfortunately, private businesses waste a significant portion of profits by distributing them among millionaire and billionaire shareholders that do nothing. That is why capitalism is oppressive, that reason in and of itself.

Worker’s ownership and control would eliminate profit, as all profit would be distributed among workers [it’s in their best interests]. However, by eliminating profit, it might be in the worker’s short term interest, but it’s against their long term interest.

However, state ownership of the means of production and the commanding heights, assuming it’s relatively independent of political and bureaucratic influence, would be capable of transforming the entire economy, creating one that’s more prosperous, humane, equitable, efficient and productive. Instead of hundreds of billions of dollars in “profit” being paid out to shareholders shifting money around on their etrade.com accounts, that capital could be used for scientific research, profit sharing bonuses for employees, investment in expansion and investment in automation and technology.

In addition, cooperation is more competitive than competition. One reason for corporate mergers is that they create “synergy” [merging two similar businesses in a similar industry eliminates redundancy, integrates operations, liberates information flow and knowledge and leads to a reduction in administration]. Nationalizing the commanding heights, or at least particular industries that are failing [like the automotive industry], would unleash unprecedented synergy and would allow for proper planning, expansion, innovation and efficiency. This is assuming political and bureaucratic influence is minimized and managers and administrators are hired strictly based on merit and knowledge.

For example, wage difference aside, Wal Mart is the most competitive retailer in the world. Wal Mart could afford to pay employees the same as Publix and Albertson’s and still offer lower prices. Sam’s could pay workers the same as Costco and allow employees to unionize, while still offering lower prices than Costco. By merging, integrating, sharing and spreading Wal Mart technique, technology, etc., the entire retail industry would be far more productive and efficient, saving consumers tens of billions of dollars and providing workers with a living wage.

However, a certain amount of competition is needed to provide a reason for accountability, continued innovation and continued improvement. If all industry were state controlled, it’d be like an AT&T monopoly, there’d be no competition and no need to innovate, no need to offer lower prices and no need to increase productivity and efficiency. That’s why the private sector should be allowed to compete with the public sector.



My idea would be to;

[1]. Nationalize the entire energy industry to secure adequate supply, affordable pricing and ecological sustainability, while providing for innovation in renewable sources that could end up being cheaper than traditional methods [fusion, nuclear, solar, hydrogen fuel cells, etc.]. This would also allow for improving energy efficiency, increasing ethanol use in gasoline and reducing our reliance on Middle Eastern petroleum. In addition, petroleum, natural gas, heating oil and coal should be priced by market supply and demand conditions, not by speculative investors on the Mercantile Exchange.

[2]. Nationalize the entire insurance industry, which would generate an enormous synergy by abolishing redundancies and reducing the administrative burden [as well as eliminating the need for insurance companies that insure insurance companies]. This synergy, combined with making the industry non-profit, would represent a significant savings for consumers.

[3]. End unemployment insurance and pass legislation guaranteeing everyone the right to a full time job. It doesn’t make sense to pay a person for doing nothing and it doesn’t make sense to allow such labor to go underutilized. It’s also inhumane and socially wrong, as it [unemployment] deprives individuals of hope and a sense of purpose.

[4]. Reduce the Pentagon [we spend over $500 billion a year on defense, more than China, Russia, the European Union, former Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia, North Korea and South Korea combined] to $100 billion and bring all our troops from Europe and South Korea home. Defense means defense and there’s no need for offense, unless first attacked. Use the $400 billion in savings to provide universal health insurance coverage.

[5]. Make employers that employ over one hundred employees pay a minimum wage of $8.75 an hour and index that minimum wage with changes in the Consumer Price Index. Allow each employee two weeks paid vacation, one week paid sick leave and a maximum workweek of 35 hours [unless the employee makes a choice to work longer hours]. Compensation should be equalized between men and women working in the same career.

[6]. Tax all income [including dividends, unless they‘re reinvested] between $250,000 and $10,000,000 should be taxed at 60%. All income above $10,000,000 should be taxed at 80%. End the taxation of capital gains and tax brokerage accounts only when withdrawals are made [so instead of paying a tax when you sell shares, you’d be paying a tax when you withdrew money from the brokerage account]. Capital withdrawals exceeding $20,000 within a one year period should be taxed at 60% and withdrawals above $500,000 in a single year should be taxed at 80%. Use revenue raised from such tax reform to; end regressive sales and excise taxes, end property taxes, abolish tuition fees for college students and to provide universal child care for working parents. Begin taxing interest income the same as capital withdrawals [you wouldn’t pay a tax on interest earned until withdrawals were made from certificates of deposit and savings accounts]. Savings withdrawals could be exempted for those withdrawing less than $10,000 in a single year, while being taxed at a regular personal income tax rate on anything above $10,000. To prevent bracket creep, index all brackets with the Consumer Price Index. Abolish the corporate income tax, cause profits are positive as long as they’re being used for investment in expansion, workforce training, scientific research and capital investment. The problem with “profits” is that much is paid out to wealthy shareholders, which is a gross misuse of financial resources. By taxing “capital withdrawals”, this problem is solved.

[7]. Bring major change to the World Bank, International Monetary Fund and the World Trade Organization so that issues of ecological sustainability and social justice are represented. Forgive third world countries [those with a per capita GDP of under $10,000] of obligations owed to the World Bank and International Monetary Fund. Restructure the North American Free Trade Agreement in a manner beneficial to Mexico’s working class and levels the playing field between the U.S. and Mexico. Stop trading with China unless they consider improving human rights, revaluing the Yuan, complying with U.S. patents and copyrights and providing a minimum standard for workers.

[10]. Nationalize the entire automotive industry, refinance automotive industry debts and obligations by issuing Treasury Bonds [which offer a lower rate of interest than corporate bonds] to save money, incorporate company pension plans under Social Security and provide more investment in researching alternatives and increasing fuel efficiency for U.S. cars and trucks. An enormous amount of synergy would be created by merging U.S. automotive operations [eliminating redundancies, sharing information and technology, integrating operations and cutting administrative expenses]. The new automotive powerhouse would still have competition coming from European, South Korean and Japanese automotive makers, so there’s still a strong incentive to innovative, improve efficiency and reduce prices.

[11]. Require that banks and lending institutions lend 1/3 [33.33%] of their “real estate” and mortgage loans to Habitat for Humanity and the Department of Housing & Urban Development at zero interest for construction of affordable housing. Restructure the Housing & Urban Development to offer tenants the opportunity to own their own home/apartment by taking on a no interest mortgage.

[12]. Make publicly traded corporations conduct Initial Public Offerings for distribution of shares among employees until employees own 25% of shares outstanding. Employees would hold these shares in their Individual Retirement Accounts and should be prevented from selling shares until reaching the age of sixty five. This would allow each employee to accumulate hundreds of thousands of dollars in their IRA. Combined with social security, this would provide an adequate pension for all retirees.

[13]. Replace the Congressional and Presidential system with a Parliamentary System rooted in Proportional Representation, abolish the Electoral College, reduce the voting age to 16 and provide increased public financing for campaigns while placing stricter limits on private donations. Make Civics classes mandatory for all children, teenagers and college students and make those classes interesting and progressive.

So there you have it;

1. A living wage of $8.75 an hour indexed with the cost of living.
2. A maximum workweek of 35 hours with pay for 40.
3. 2 weeks paid vacation and 1 week paid sick leave per year.
4. Compensation equalization between men and women.
5. Fair trade that protects workers and is ecologically sustainable.
6. Debt relief for Africa, Asia, Eastern Europe and Latin America.
7. Quality affordable housing for all Americans.
8. Universal health care & universal education from birth to death.
9. Full employment and the right to a full time job.
10. Affordable energy that's ecologically sound, efficient transport and cheaper insurance.
11. A strong increase in economic growth [surge in savings and investment, leading to lower borrowing costs for business investment] and a more productive and efficient economy.
12. A reduction in economic injustice and inequality.
13. Universal child care for working parents.
14. No more regressive sales, property and excise taxes.
15. Partial employee ownership of their employer and a living pension in old age.
16. A true democracy that's of the people, by the people and for the people.

[Stonewall]

Also, to solve the problem stated and to allow employees to contribute to increased productivity, efficiency, innovation and profitability, business administration and economics classes should be mandatory for all workers. These classes wouldn’t be in-depth, but would at least give everyone a basic understanding of administrating a business. As time progresses, more ownership could be transferred to the workers.

[NE_Liberal]

That is a lot of the same stuff I believe in Stonewall. However I believe that Nuclear power is the way we should go. Along with replacing natural gas with solar heating to heat homes. I also do not agree with ethanol, at least for now it is just as harmful to the environment and more costly to produce than oil. We could also never depend on it solely. We do not have enough land to grow the corn.

[Stonewall]

Genetic engineering and modification has made agriculture more productive with less land. Ethanol has been found cleaner than gasoline and it‘s cheaper than gasoline is right now. I think switching in favor of ethanol [increasing ethanol’s share in gasoline] would reduce emissions, make gas cheaper than it currently is, lessen our dependence on Middle Eastern countries and provide a powerful stimulus to rural economies and communities.

[NE_Liberal]

The ONLY reason ethanol is cheaper is because it is so heavily subsidized. Did you read the recent Cornell Study on ethanol? I will try and dig it up. In short it concluded that ethanol right now produces negative net energy. Meaning that it takes more energy than it produces. At this point in time it is simply less efficient than pumping the black stuff out of the ground. Maybe that will change. But for now I will not put ethanol in my car when the governement is heavily subsidizing an innefficient form of energy. And I am from Nebraska! Go figure.

[Fidelbrand]

CCCPneubauten,

your philosophy teacher should pack his bag and go shit on the street. He is either hiding the truth that leftist/socialist ideas are burgeoning on a global basis OR he is just simply ignorant on what socialism is.

btw, what do you think of our replies?