Did Fidel Betray Che in Bolivia?

[Severian]

It seems like there's another thread on this every month or so, because of the persistant rumor that there was a falling-out between Castro and Guevara, or that Castro didn't do everything he could to support Che's guerrilla in Bolivia.

First of all, there's no evidence of any major political disagreement between Castro and Guevara. Differences of emphasis, maybe. It's sometimes suggested that Guevara was critical of the USSR and Castro wasn't, but in fact Castro also criticised Soviet policies in a number of mid-60s speeches.

Second, the Cuban government was heavily involved in supporting the guerilla effort in Bolivia. Cuban intelligence supplied the passports that Che and others travelled on, a large number of Cubans participated as guerillas, etc.

Third, Che never expressed any dissatisfaction with Castro or the support he received from the Cuban government. Not even in his private diary, which has been published, so anyone can read it. Not in any conversation with any of the other guerillas.

Guess who's the origin of the claim that he did express dissatisfaction with Castro? One of Che's murderers, CIA agent Felix Rodriguez. He claimed that Che seemed to him "bitter over the Cuban dictator's lack of support for the Bolivian incursion...." Yeah, right, Che's going to confide something with his captors something that he never confided in any of his comrades or in his diary. What BS.

The rumors, originating with Rodriguez, have circulated ever since, spread by enemies of the Cuban revolution and of everything that Che Guevara stood for. The New York Times, for example. Here's a letter to the NYT - which the NYT refused to print in full - explaining in detail why an NYT article on this was purest BS. Link to letter (http://www.themilitant.com/1995/5947/5947_14.html)

Fourth, it's sometimes said that the Cuban government failed to rescue Che once the guerillas got into trouble. What were they supposed to do, drop an army of paratroopers?

One excellent book that definitively debunks this rumor and others: Conflicting Missions by Piero Glijeises. It's a history of Cuban foreign policy, including Africa and Latin America. It's so massively well-documented - with declassified papers from a dozen countries - that it received the Ferrell Prize from the Society for Historians of American Foreign Relations even though it's not mostly about U.S. foreign relations.

BTW, it's interesting to note how little conflict there has been within the core leadership of the Cuban Revolution. I'm sure there have been disagreements, but they have been resolved amicably. The Cuban Revolution, unlike some others, has never eaten its children.

The main leaders of the guerillas in the Sierra are all still leaders of the Cuban Communist Party today - with the sole exceptions of Camilo Cienfuegos, killed in a plane crash, and Che Guevara, murdered by a CIA agent and the Bolivian military dictatorship.

The guerilla effort was betrayed - by the leadership of the Bolivian Communist Party, and especially its principal leader Mario Monje. They promised support and withdrew it at the last moment. Che describes this in detail in his Bolivian Diary.

Here's the one thread where somebody actually attempted to argue this rumor was true. (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=32414&hl=castro)

[Colombia]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2004, 05:08 PM
BTW, it's interesting to note how little conflict there has been within the core leadership of the Cuban Revolution. I'm sure there have been disagreements, but they have been resolved amicably. The Cuban Revolution, unlike some others, has never eaten its children.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but after Batista was ousted and all was said and done didn't Castro imprison the leaders of the 26th of July movement so as to avoid confrontation.

Again I'm not to sure if what I'm saying is right so correct me.

[Severian]

The only thing I know of that could be referring to would be the arrest of Huber Matos, a second-tier military commander...he wasn't arrested preemptively, though, but after he turned against the revolution.

[leftist resistance]

Comrade Severian,if that rumour ever surface again tell them that when che wrote his farewell letter,Cuba(Castro included) was saddened.Castro even personally tried to persuade him to stay.If there was ever a feud between them,why would Che be given the highest rank?

HASTA SIEMPRE COMMODANTE!

[Severian]

There's another variant of the rumors that surfaces from time to time on these boards, and I wanted to put a response up here.

The claim is that Che supported the Chinese side of the Chinese-Soviet split, and that this led to conflict with Fidel. Nobody's been able to point to any statement by Che where he expressed such a view, and I've found one that definitely contradicts it.

It's from his famous "Message to the Tricontinental", one of his last general public statements. Here's what Che actually thought about the Chinese-Soviet split:


When we analyze the isolation of the VietNamese we are overcome by anguish at this illogical moment in the history of humanity. U.S. imperialism is guilty of aggression. Its crimes are immense, extending over the whole world. We know this, gentlemen! But also guilty are those who at the decisive moment hesitated to make VietNam an inviolable part of socialist territory-- yes, at the risk of a war of global scale, but also compelling the U.S. imperialists to make a decision. And also guilty are those who persist in a war of insults and tripping each other up, begun quite some time ago by the representatives of the two biggest powers in the socialist camp.

Let us ask seeking an honest answer: Is VietNam isolated or not, as it tries to maintain a dangerous balancing act between the two quarreling powers?
Emphasis added.
source (http://www.seeingred.com/Copy/2.3_che_tricont.html)

As on most other issues, this is basically similar to the ideas expressed by Fidel, in this March 1965 speech for example:

Without a doubt, the South Vietnamese people and the people of North Vietnam are suffering all this and suffering it in their own flesh, because there it is men and women who die, in the south and in the north, victims of the shrapnel and Yankee bombings. They do not have the slightest hesitancy in declaring that they intend to continue to carry all that out because not even the attacks against North
Vietnam have resulted in overcoming the divisions in the bosom of the socialist family.

And who can doubt that this division is encouraging the imperialists? Who
can doubt that a united front against the imperialist enemy would have made
them hesitate--would have made them think a little more carefully before
launching their adventurist attacks and their increasingly more brazen
intervention in that part of the world?
source (http://www1.lanic.utexas.edu/la/cb/cuba/castro/1965/19650314)

[Big Boss]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but after Batista was ousted and all was said and done didn't Castro imprison the leaders of the 26th of July movement so as to avoid confrontation.

Again I'm not to sure if what I'm saying is right so correct me.

As the comrade Severian pointed out, you might be referring to the Hubert Matos affair. He piloted a B-26 bomber over Havana to suposedly "spread leaflets against Castro". That same airplane was the one droping bombs over some other provinces, destroying sugar plantations and houses all together. Ask yourself: If Hubert Matos is a "loyal comrade of the Revolution" then why in the blue hell was he piloting an American made B-26 over Havana?

This incident happened when Che was working as president of the National Bank. The bomber piloted by Matos dangerously passed over the National Bank building and everybody inside (including Che) threw themselves to the ground for protection. The airplane was so close that Che clearly identified Matos as the pilot!!

O yeah, one more thing. In an interview of Aleida Guevara (daughter of Che) the interviewer asked her the same question discused here. She replied that if Che was in ill terms with uncle Fidel (that's what the children of Che call him since he helped to raise them) then why would he leave his most precious treasure (his children) with him to take care for?

[Red Rebel]

Castro didn't want Che to go to Bolivia so soon. He wanted others to start a camp and Che to wait a few months.

Castro also could not give Che help unless he wanted to risk a war with Bolivia and her ally the US. Who would attack Cuba and the USSR would respond to Cuba's aide. So Castro couldn't really help Che with supplies unless he wanted to risk war.

I believe that the Chairman of the Bolivian Communist Party was mainly to blame.

[Wanted Man]

Severian my man, I commend you for sticking so much effort into refuting all that bullshit of those useful idiots of the CIA. Hat's off!

[fernando]

In Jon Lee Anderson's book it mentions that the radio Che used in Bolivia got damaged after some battle, which was the reason why communication with Havana became practically impossible.

Felix Rodriguez is somebody you could not appoint as a very accurate source, I watched this interview with him that he mentions how he had a friendly chit chat with Che and how they hugged each other before he had Guevara executed. However the Bolivian captain present there claims that no such thing happened, mentioned that Che would never hug a gusano.

[Red Rebel]

In Jon Lee Anderson's book it mentions that the radio Che used in Bolivia got damaged after some battle, which was the reason why communication with Havana became practically impossible.

Once Che was in Bolivia he did not contact Havana. But the broken radio did hurt his communication with other guerrila members.

[Big Boss]

I don't know about you guys but I think that the russians had something to do with his death also. I look around and see if I can find some proof of this.

[Janus]

I believe that the Soviets certainly criticized Castro's sponsorship of guerrilla activity in Latin America. Their primary reason was that these Cuban sponsored groups undermined Soviet influence by competiting with the Latin American communist groups favored by the USSR. So it may be possible that the USSR had a part in preventing the Bolivian Communist Party from assissting and cooperating with Che's group. This lack of aid hampered Che's operations in Bolivia to a degree.

[Nicky Scarfo]

One of the shop stewards in my union sez so, therefore, yes Fidel did whack Che. :)

[Raul]

Fidel did not betray Che. That is just what the capitalist say to make the communist look bad. Che Guevara was the one who decided to leave Cuba because he wanted to help other nations in need. People say Castro saw Che as a threat, but it was Che who decided to leave Cuba. If he was a real threat, he wouldn't of left Cuba to go to Africa. It was actually Fidel Castro who invited Che back to Cuba. If Castro saw Che as a rival, he would of just left Che in Africa.

[OneBrickOneVoice]

I think Che left Cuba because he saw where it was going. He realized that Fidel was becoming a Soviet puppet, and Che didn't like that.

[anomaly]

Castro didn't actively betray Che, but in Anderson's book, Castro seems to realize that Bolivia is a hopeless cause. But he can't really stop Che from going.

[Red Rebel]

So it may be possible that the USSR had a part in preventing the Bolivian Communist Party from assissting and cooperating with Che's group.

The USSR had no (maybe a little) influence in Latin America. But I do agree that the lack of aid from Bolivia itself hammpered the movement (and as Castro said Cuba couldn't aid Che without risking a war with Bolivia).


He realized that Fidel was becoming a Soviet puppet

Castro was not a Soviet puppet. If he was he wouldn't of had a relationship (diplomatic) with China.

[Lebanese Revolution]

Hello,

This is my first post in this forum. I am a new member from Lebanon.

Let us admit, and Che is my idol, that Che did commit some mistakes in Bolivia. The revolution that was carried in Cuba can't be exported exactely in the same manner to other countries. Each country has its unique circumstances. In Cuba the masses were against Batista and helped the rebels unlike in Bolivia.

To me Che did a mistake in hurrying up with the revolution in Bolivia..he should have waited.

No Castro didn't betray him.

[Karl Marx's Camel]

Guevara felt 'betrayed' by Castro

LA PAZ, Bolivia - Cuban revolutionary hero Ernesto "Che" Guevara
spoke bitterly of comrade-in-arms Fidel Castro in his final hours,
according to a never-before-revealed account of the eve of his
execution. "Fidel betrayed me," he told his captors.

Guevara, caught and executed by Bolivian army troops in 1967 as he
tried to export Cuba's revolution, also surrendered a diary to Bolivian
officer Jaime Niño de Guzman in which he rendered a fiery communist
manifesto for all of South America.

"We make our voices heard for the first time," one entry in the
handwritten journal declared. "We have to reach all the corners of this
continent with the echo of our cry for rebellion.

"We rise today having exhausted all possibilities of a peaceful fight to
show through our example the road to follow."

Niño de Guzman, a retired air force general newly named Bolivia's
ambassador to Austria, spoke to The Associated Press on Thursday.

While he has talked publicly previously about his role in Guevara's last
days, the interview marked the first revelation of some of the
revolutionary's final words - and of an exchange of gifts between the
two men, captor and captive.

Three decades later, Guevara is revered as a revolutionary hero in
Cuba and remains a mythic figure across Latin America, where his
bearded likeness can be seen on everything from T-shirts to truck
mudguards.

Niño de Guzman met the Argentina-born Guevara on Oct. 9, 1967,
after the guerrilla leader had been injured and captured by Bolivian
troops at Quebrada Vado del Yeso, 435 miles southeast of La Paz.

Then a helicopter pilot, Niño de Guzman was sent to the village where
Guevara and other survivors of the guerrilla band were being held.

He met the guerrilla in a small room, surrounded by Bolivian soldiers.
He lit Guevara's pipe for him, and the two struck up a conversation.

According to Niño de Guzman, Guevara told his captors he had
favored starting a guerrilla front in Peru instead of Bolivia - but came to
Bolivia on Castro's insistence.

Guevara also complained that support from Cuba and from the Bolivian
Communist Party broke down early in his ill-fated guerrilla campaign
here.

More than once, the defeated revolutionary declared: "'Fidel betrayed
me."'

"Nearly all of Guevara's actions and words amounted to a wish to die,"
Niño de Guzman recalled. He quoted Guevara as telling him: "I'm worth
more dead than alive to you and Fidel."

A Cuban-born CIA agent also tried to talk to Guevara, Niño de
Guzman said.

Guevara spat at the man, saying, "I don't talk to traitors."

Niño de Guzman said he gave Guevara some tobacco, and the
wounded guerrilla took a brown-covered booklet out of his boot and
gave it to him.

When Guevara's skeleton was exhumed last year from its unmarked
grave in Bolivia for a hero's burial in Cuba, with Castro presiding,
scraps of the tobacco were still in his jacket pocket.

The booklet was Guevara's proclamation to Latin Americans, and Niño
de Guzman disclosed its existence for the first time. He said he hadn't
wanted to release it until now.

After Guevara was shot by order of the army high command, Niño de
Guzman flew the body to its first burial site. He showed the AP photos
of the bloodied corpse, many of which had been published before.

In the diary, Guevara acknowledged the risk of his work: "Our lives will
be the witnesses of the seriousness of the struggle we have taken on
that will only end with victory or death."

"We declare ourselves anti-imperialist fighters," he wrote, and repeated:
"Victory or death."

By The Associated Press

http://www.latinamericanstudies.org/cuba/guevara.htm

[Red Rebel]

LA PAZ, Bolivia - Cuban revolutionary hero Ernesto "Che" Guevara spoke bitterly of comrade-in-arms Fidel Castro in his final hours, according to a never-before-revealed account of the eve of his execution. "Fidel betrayed me," he told his captors.[QUOTE]

There were so many mixed reports coming from the soldiers that day. Its hard to take anything from that day a 100% proof.

Also what could Castro do? Declare war on Bolivia?

[Red Rebel]

LA PAZ, Bolivia - Cuban revolutionary hero Ernesto "Che" Guevara spoke bitterly of comrade-in-arms Fidel Castro in his final hours, according to a never-before-revealed account of the eve of his execution. "Fidel betrayed me," he told his captors.[QUOTE]

There were so many mixed reports coming from the soldiers that day. Its hard to take anything from that day a 100% proof.

Also what could Castro do? Declare war on Bolivia?

[Red Rebel]

LA PAZ, Bolivia - Cuban revolutionary hero Ernesto "Che" Guevara spoke bitterly of comrade-in-arms Fidel Castro in his final hours, according to a never-before-revealed account of the eve of his execution. "Fidel betrayed me," he told his captors.[QUOTE]

There were so many mixed reports coming from the soldiers that day. Its hard to take anything from that day a 100% proof.

Also what could Castro do? Declare war on Bolivia?

[Severian]

Originally posted by Red [email protected] 12 2006, 01:02 PM
The USSR had no (maybe a little) influence in Latin America.
I'm sorry, what?

The USSR's influence over the official Communist Parties worldwide was tremendous. At times, total.

Whether they called up the Bolivian Communist Party and told them what to do, I doubt. But that they encouraged the whole reformist line of reliance of the national bourgeoisie...is certain.

[Severian]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2006, 08:25 AM
(pasted article)Guevara felt 'betrayed' by Castro

LA PAZ, Bolivia - Cuban revolutionary hero Ernesto "Che" Guevara spoke bitterly of comrade-in-arms Fidel Castro in his final hours, according to a never-before-revealed account of the eve of his execution. "Fidel betrayed me," he told his captors
(Emphasis added.)

Which is exactly what I said in the first post in this thread.

The origin of this slander is Guevara's murderers.

If anyone chooses to believe what they say, and not what Guevara said in his diary and everywhere else....that's your problem.

[Si Pinto]

The origin of this slander is Guevara's murderers.


If Hubert Matos is a "loyal comrade of the Revolution" then why in the blue hell was he piloting an American made B-26 over Havana?


if Che was in ill terms with uncle Fidel (that's what the children of Che call him since he helped to raise them) then why would he leave his most precious treasure (his children) with him to take care for?

Three really good points, I don't believe for a second that Fidel wanted Che dead, I just don't buy that.

They had disagreements, of course they did, basically down to the fact that Fidel wanted to cement his victory in Cuba, but Che was anxious to take the Revolution forward.

Read Che's farewell letter to Fidel just before he left to go to the Congo, he is clearly making that point, i.e. You have what you want, but I have other battles to fight.

You don't right adoring poetry about someone you hate! Read Che's poems about Fidel.

The CIA will stop at nothing to defeat 'it's' enemies and that includes making up bullshit stories about people they've killed...bastards :angry:

[CUBA LIBRE]

Well i think that Castro did not betray Guevara in Bolivia but i'm 100% sure that those people from C.I.A. are idiots and murders and ............

I hate U.S.A. and everybody who are in contact with BUSHSHIT. :cuba: :cuba: :cool: :rolleyes:

[Physco Bitch]

[COLOR=blue]Why are people still making up such lies? Why would Fidel want Che to die? I know how people might hope that trying to blame Fidel for Che's death may put a black mark over the Cuban leaders head.The question remains that if fidel did have che killed off why would he keep his memory alive in the hearts and minds of not only his people- in the hearts and minds of his supporters all around the world. Of course i could be mistaken - but i seriously (and hope) that it is a punch of serious lies :ph34r:

[Red Rebel]

I'm sorry, what?

The USSR's influence over the official Communist Parties worldwide was tremendous. At times, total.

1. Speaking in terms of Latin American countries, the USSR has little control over what happened ther.
2. Speaking of the CP's, they had about half control. The other half would be Maoists and supporters of the PRC.

Sorry for not being clear.

[Severian]

Responding to that last post by Red Rebel.

To bring this back to the original topic of the thread, and of the discussion:

It was the Bolivian CP which betrayed Che - promising to support him, and then withdrawing its support. That was a pro-Moscow party, full stop. Whether or not they got a specific order from Moscow, that betrayal reflects the Moscow-dictated overall political line.

And incidentally: in Latin America and worldwide, when the pro-Moscow and pro-Beijing elements split - Moscow got a lot more than half of the CPs, and Beijing a lot less!

At least one of the pro-Beijing groups in Bolivia, IIRC, did join Che's guerilla. As did a number of people from the Bolivian CP - all the people it had assigned to join or aid the guerilla attempt, stuck with it despite the Monje's orders.

[Red Rebel]

Moscow got a lot more than half of the CPs, and Beijing a lot less!

Of course I don't have the book where I got the information with me... but do you have a link (not saying your wrong, I'm just intrested)?


At least one of the pro-Beijing groups in Bolivia, IIRC, did join Che's guerilla.

Guevara didn't recruit 1 person in Bolivia. Also there were only about 5 Bolvians in the guerrillas.

[*~ReD aPpLE~*]

i wasnt born when the actual even happened and i have not read an much literatures as most people in this forum may had read, yet having read all the posting in this thread ihave drawn a humble but sensible conclusion a young girl like me is capable of understanding.

first, it just doesnt makes sense for castro to to cement a path towards guevara's death.

second, whoever, designed the story that el che disclosed to his executioners that catro betrayed him is a scheme of a no brainer. they should have thought of a plot more convincing than present day soap opera.

[Severian]

Red Apple, that sounds like plain good sense.


Originally posted by Red [email protected] 27 2006, 10:54 PM

Moscow got a lot more than half of the CPs, and Beijing a lot less!

Of course I don't have the book where I got the information with me... but do you have a link (not saying your wrong, I'm just intrested)?
Not offhand. But it should be pretty obvious. Think for a moment about the large CPs in the world. How many were pro-Moscow? Almost all.



At least one of the pro-Beijing groups in Bolivia, IIRC, did join Che's guerilla.
Guevara didn't recruit 1 person in Bolivia. Also there were only about 5 Bolvians in the guerrillas.

No, 29 Bolivians fought in the guerilla. Compared to 18 Cubans and 3 Peruvians. That's from counting the list of combatants on page 432 of the Bolivian Diary (1994 Pathfinder Press edition, which has a lot of supplementary information.)

But that's all a drift. What I was thinking of (now that I've dug out my copy of the Diary): Moises Guevara and 11 of his comrades joined the guerillas. Moises Guevara had been part of the pro-Beijing Communist Party of Bolivia (Marxist-Leninist), but had been expelled.

The pro-Moscow and pro-Beijing parties behaved similarly, really: both parties promised support and didn't come through. In both cases a number of their members joined anyway - it's just that in the second case the split happened earlier.

[hajduk]

i think there is possibility that Fidel betray Che becouse he is very jelous on Che becouse of Che carisma...you see Fidel was kid of a man who own whole Cuba and father of Fidel didnt want to accept Fidel like his own child until Fidel get 18.... and Che was born in common family in Argentina so there is big possibility that Fidel deep in his own soul actualy didnt liked Che becouse his not from Cuba,becouse he came from nice common family from Argentina and family of Che liked Fuser a lot...and Fidel came from connection beetwen his mother who was a servant on mansion of Fidels father so i think actuly that Fidel rise revolution in Cuba only becouse he hate that fact that his father actualy didnt liked him so mutch

[Karl Marx's Camel]

Che was betrayed by Mario Monje, the USSR and a few peasants.

I doubt the Cuban government betrayed Che, we should remember Castro got Che out of Congo and wanted him to use Cuba as a staging ground for expeditions.

While we are at it, the Cuban regime have misused his image.

[BIG BROTHER]

I'm glad I've read this thread, I never knew about all this evidence that shows the probabily that Castro didn't betray Che.

[Lenin II]

Isn't it odd how the same man who murdered Che also insisted in his testimony that he begged for his life by saying, "I am worth much more to you alive?" And now, in this article, suddenly he is quoted as saying the opposite! "I am worth much more dead to you and Fidel."

Please.

Like Guevara, I have no interest in talking with traitors. These men are traitors to their people and the working class. I will not listen to a word they say, for it is all the poisonous barbs of lies! As Che himself said, "We should never trust imperialism at all! Not ONE IOTA!"

[BIG BROTHER]

Lennin II, I kinda lost your point, so do you think Fidel did betray him, or no?

[Red_Mackem]

Castro would never betray a Comrade that had helped him win the Revolution in Cuba. It was Che's Military Tactics that let defeated him. Revolutions are not just started in the Countyside with the Peasants, in Bolivian case it was more Urban Warfare.

[Lenin II]

Lennin II, I kinda lost your point, so do you think Fidel did betray him, or no?
No, I don't. I'm saying these men are class traitors, liars and murderers and we should not listen to a goddamn thing that rolls off their pitiful bourgeoisie tongues.

[BIG BROTHER]

No, I don't. I'm saying these men are class traitors, liars and murderers and we should not listen to a goddamn thing that rolls off their pitiful bourgeoisie tongues.

ok, I got you now comrade. Yes indeed we should contribute to end this bourgeoisie lie, I belive whenever we can, we tell the truth about Che's death.

[Comandante Guevara]

If Fidel felt any kind of threat from Che,as i read in a post, he would not give him any important role in the Revolution. He probably would not even go to Cuba inside "Granma" from Mexico. This are all capitalists BS.
Maybe Fidel can answer in this thread and give us his personal point of view? :D

[comrade stalin guevara]

comrade che is a true communist he dedicated his life to the cuban revolution he and castro always worked there diffrences out long live guevara stalin2

[CHEtheLIBERATOR]

No Fidel did not.The only betrayers were the Bolivian communist party that was closer to moscow than the people and sold him out to the KGB who in turn sold him out to the CIA who captured him and his guerillas.Only the communist party is to blame.Hypocritical sniches

[Dosoftei]

No,guys i think Castro did betray Che in Bolivia,because for Che its to simple todie like that.Being captured because his weapon had broken.It isnt hes stile.

[Che_shall_Live]

I believe that Fidel did not conspire directly in letting go of Che. He didn't ask for it but also didn't oppose it. He was too scared of losing Cuba. I believe that the Soviets and the Americans did a complete deal after the missile crises: Soviets withdraw the missiles, they give way to capture Che, Cuba is protected from any invasion, no missiles in Turkey. The US gets the missiles out from Cuba, gets a strong hand on the Latin backyard, Che is out, Fidel is controlled.
Obvious.

[Charles Xavier]

Fidel had no reason to betray Che, Che renounced his citizenship of Cuba and went to the Sierra of Bolivia.

[PRC-UTE]

No Fidel did not.The only betrayers were the Bolivian communist party that was closer to moscow than the people and sold him out to the KGB who in turn sold him out to the CIA who captured him and his guerillas.Only the communist party is to blame.Hypocritical sniches

the evidence supports this scenario.

I don't know of any evidence Fidel betrayed Che.

and though Che has been more useful in some ways dead than alive, there's no way Fidel or anyone else could have predicted that his martyrdom would have such an effect. let alone imagine Che's face plastered on every feckin variety of consumer product imaginable lol.

[Kassad]

Way too many fucking Che Guevara avatars...

From what I've read on factual analysis, Guevara believed in spreading the people's warfare to other oppressed states, whereas it seemed Fidel Castro was more content and insistent on modernizing Cuba into a socialist community. I don't think Castro had any reason to betray Guevara and the material means Guevara had of igniting revolutionary fervor across Latin America were not plausible. It was incredibly irrational to plunge into Bolivia after success in Cuba, especially when Guevara's intellect could have been used in a much more logical manner, but I don't think Castro conspider to kill him because of said ideology. There's no factual evidence to suggest anything to the contrary.

[Che_shall_Live]

Kassad,
i have to agree with you that going to Bolivia was a strategic mistake from Che. Though i'm supporter of Che but i'm not irrational. It was a mistake going into the middle of a country that has different social and political status of that in Cuba. The main difference was that in Cuba the people were with the Revolution and wanted Batista out, while in Bolivia it was not the case. So was the case in Congo where Che also faced a failure.
But..in Bolivia Che found out that many equipment and weapons that Castro provided him and his men with were useless. Rifles, radio telecommunications, etc...it was obvious that the US and the USSR wanted his head especially after his attack on the Soviet Union in the Alegeria. Castro didn't oppose Che's elemination because he too doesn't want a competator in Cuba and elsewhere. Imagine Che was alive till now..where would Castro be.
Che was a man who didn't fall for the "glories" of power and authority. Che was pure and honest in his struggle. Was Castro honest to the revolution as Che was? well the years that followed didn't show that.

[Charles Xavier]

Kassad,
i have to agree with you that going to Bolivia was a strategic mistake from Che. Though i'm supporter of Che but i'm not irrational. It was a mistake going into the middle of a country that has different social and political status of that in Cuba. The main difference was that in Cuba the people were with the Revolution and wanted Batista out, while in Bolivia it was not the case. So was the case in Congo where Che also faced a failure.
But..in Bolivia Che found out that many equipment and weapons that Castro provided him and his men with were useless. Rifles, radio telecommunications, etc...it was obvious that the US and the USSR wanted his head especially after his attack on the Soviet Union in the Alegeria. Castro didn't oppose Che's elemination because he too doesn't want a competator in Cuba and elsewhere. Imagine Che was alive till now..where would Castro be.
Che was a man who didn't fall for the "glories" of power and authority. Che was pure and honest in his struggle. Was Castro honest to the revolution as Che was? well the years that followed didn't show that.

Cuba is definitely developed on honest socialist principles. Please wake up conspiracy theorist.

The Cuban revolution never ate its children. W

Why would there be any power threat by Che? Che could have stayed in Cuba but instead he went on to Bolivia, and renounced his citizenship, how would he be a power threat to Castro?

And why would Castro oppose Che Guevara in power, Che did a lot of good work to develop socialism in Cuba.

[TC]

What a bullshit thread, it screams a thought pattern along the lines of: "I don't want to associate with dirty commies like Fidel that the bourgeois press says bad things about but I do want to associate myself with that rockstar romantic figure Che, so wouldn't it be convenient if they were really political enemies rather than Che being a loyal follow of Fidel?? hmm"

Its that kind of opportunism that poisons the left.

[Nakidana]

It was incredibly irrational to plunge into Bolivia after success in Cuba, especially when Guevara's intellect could have been used in a much more logical manner, but I don't think Castro conspider to kill him because of said ideology.

In hindsight it was irrational, but the experience in Cuba probably convinced Che that it could be done. Correct me if I'm wrong but things didn't exactly look good after the Granma landing in Cuba. The guerrillas were scattered, wounded and outnumbered. Still, they carried through. Probably Che thought the same could happen in Bolivia.

I think one of the main errors Che committed in Bolivia was that he kept on going. When I was reading the Bolivian Diary I kept thinking to myself: "Okay, now they're definitely fucked, why doesn't Che pull out?". It's like Che didn't even think of pulling out when the guerrillas were starved and drinking their own urine! He should've tried to pull out when he discovered their stash had been found.

As for his intellect being used in a more logical manner, I don't think Che ever really wanted to be in government. Well, maybe if it was in Argentina. He had always been an outsider, in Cuba, in Congo and in Bolivia. What Che really wanted was to see a revolution in his homeland and that's why he kept on going.

Also there is the fact that he renounced his citizenship and all. Going back to Cuba as a loser must've seemed worse than death.

Fernando Diego García argues the same thing in "Che: Images of a Revolutionary". In fact he states that Fidel read out Che's farewell letter to ensure his own survival, and that the reading came as "a severe blow to Che. The public reading of the letter marked the moment of his [Che's] disenchantment with power". Che also said that the public reading resulted in him being viewed as a "foreigner who was in touch with Cubans" by compañeros in Congo. Castro said he had read the letter to counter the rumours about Che's disappearance and to fight back "orthodox pro-Soviets".

My point is I don't think Che had wanted the letter to be read out in that way and that it further pressured Che to continue the struggle in Bolivia. Not that Fidel "betrayed" Che by reading it out, in fact he sent numerous messages to Che in which he said he would welcome Che's return, it was just an unintended consequence.

[chiren]

We know for a fact that the french philosopher Regis Debray (who was in bolivia for an interview with Che), was the one who actually supplied the information about Ernesto Guevara that led to his capture and death by the CIA (felix Rodriguez gave the order to the bolivian Mario Theran), Regis Debray had a deal with the bolivan army that; the press would not be informed about the fact that he told the army about the whereabouts of Ernesto Guevara. He later became an advisor of Francois Mitterand the french president(81-88)(2001.docu.sacrificio,atmo,erikgandini)

[Wanted Man]

What a bullshit thread, it screams a thought pattern along the lines of: "I don't want to associate with dirty commies like Fidel that the bourgeois press says bad things about but I do want to associate myself with that rockstar romantic figure Che, so wouldn't it be convenient if they were really political enemies rather than Che being a loyal follow of Fidel?? hmm"

Its that kind of opportunism that poisons the left.
I liked the guy who argued that Fidel betrayed Che, because Che's actual death was "not his style". Indeed, Che's style would have been to put on his Superman cape, overthrow the Bolivian regime, and get revenge on all the "USSR puppets" who "betrayed him"...

[h9socialist]

I wouldn't put a helluva lot of trust in an Associated Press report from that period. This is the first time I've seen any report that Loyola Guzman was at La Higuera on the day Che was killed. There was a school teacher named Cortez who claimed to be there, (and claims to have spoke to Felix Rodriguez that day) but beyond his Comrade Willi and another guerrillero (whose name escapes me) I know of no one else from the revolutionary movement at La Higuera on the day Che was killed -- and they died before Che. However, the Bolivian junta was keen to put out a lot of disinformation in those days to avoid embarrassment. I have read several of Che's biographies, including Jon Lee Anderson's, and I've never read that Loyola Guzman was at La Higuera on October 9, 1967. If I'm wrong I will be contrite, but that AP report is not credible.

[Nakidana]

I wouldn't put a helluva lot of trust in an Associated Press report from that period. This is the first time I've seen any report that Loyola Guzman was at La Higuera on the day Che was killed. There was a school teacher named Cortez who claimed to be there, (and claims to have spoke to Felix Rodriguez that day) but beyond his Comrade Willi and another guerrillero (whose name escapes me) I know of no one else from the revolutionary movement at La Higuera on the day Che was killed -- and they died before Che. However, the Bolivian junta was keen to put out a lot of disinformation in those days to avoid embarrassment. I have read several of Che's biographies, including Jon Lee Anderson's, and I've never read that Loyola Guzman was at La Higuera on October 9, 1967. If I'm wrong I will be contrite, but that AP report is not credible.

Aren't you mixing her up with the Bolivian officer Jaime Niño de Guzman? If I'm reading the wrong AP article then please bear with me, but Loyola Guzman seems to have been a member of the ELN. AFAIK every member of the ELN brought to La Higuera was executed (Che, Willy and Chino), but she's still alive.

[one10]

Felix Rodriguez is by no means a reliable source.

His uncle was the minister of public works during Fulgencio Batista's regime in Cuba, his entire family exiled with the success of the Cuban Revolution.

He then joined the Anti-Communist Legion created by the ruthless Dominican dictator Rafael Trujillo.

Felix Rodriguez has a history of being an advocate of oppressive and brutal dictatorships and is clearly an anti-communist.

Anything that comes out of his mouth is utter bullshit. He along with Huber Matos lead the pack of anti-castro propagandists here in Miami.

[Old Bolshie]

The former Cuban guerrilla DanielAlarcón Ramirez who fought with Che in Cuba and Bolivia makes a similar claim. He states that Fidel betrayed Che Guevara under Moscow instructions which is not to hard to believe since Cuba had become total dependent on USSR at this point. Would Fidel put his relationship with the soviets at risk because of his friendship with Che Guevara?

It is well known that Che was a hamper to the Soviet Union and this was confirmed when the Bolivian Communist Party refused to help Che or have any sort of connection with him under Moscow instructions since they initially pledged support for him.

[Dear Leader]

It was Bolivian communists that sold out CHe, afaik.