go the eating disorders, yay!

[rioters bloc]

i've only just today been exposed to the 'joy' that is pro-ana/pro-mia websites. ana is a cutesy nickname for 'anorexia', likewise mia is for 'bulimia'. this is perhaps one of the scariest phenomenons i have encountered in a while.

about 1% of people suffer from anorexia nervosa, the majority of which are womyn [although the male percentage is increasing rapidly]. it's a serious mental illness, and has the highest rate of morbidity of any psychiatric disease. as well as this, eating disorders are responsible for 32% of suicides every year.

apparently there are hundreds of these pro-ana websites around. they provide tips on drastic weight loss including what chemicals to take if you want to throw up [for bulimia], how to cope with taking large amounts of laxatives, and even offering merchandise for sale such as anorexia bracelets so members can recognise each other outside of cyber space. they produce 'thinspiration' - mainly photos of stickthin models.

i guess what's most scary about this is that the entire thing is glamourised as a kind of 'lifestyle choice'. they have things like 'anas creed'/'anas rules'/'anas testament' - it's really creepy:

Ana's creed

* I believe in CONTROL, the only force mighty enough to bring order to the chaos that is my world.
* I believe that I am the most vile, worthless and useless person to ever have existed on the planet, and that I am totally unworthy of anyone's time and attention.
* I believe that other people who tell me differently are idiots. If they could see how I really am, then they would hate me almost as much as I do.
* I believe in PERFECTION and strive to attain it.
* I believe in salvation through trying just a bit harder than I did yesterday.
* I believe in bathroom scales as an indicator of my daily successes and failures.
* I believe in hell, because I sometimes think that I am living it.
* I believe in a wholly black and white world, the losing of weight, recrimination for sins, abnegation of the body and a life ever fasting.

Psalm

Strict is my diet. I must not want. It maketh me to lie down at night hungry. It leadeth me past the confectioners. It trieth my willpower. It leadeth me into the paths of alteration for my figure's sake … Before me is a table set with green beans and lettuce. I filleth my stomach with liquids. My day's quota runneth over. Surely calorie and weight charts will follow me all the days of my life, and I will dwell in the fear of scales forever.

taken from: https://www.cpyu.org/Page_p.aspx?id=77251 [a resource about pro-ana websites]

and here are some 'tips' they give. it's fucking scary, at first i thought it was a joke...and then i realised that they were dead serious.

Ana tips

* Eat in front of a mirror naked.
* Wear nail polish to hide the discolouring in your nails from lack of nutrients.
* Take anti heartburn pills if you're really hungry. They neutralize the acid that builds up and makes you hungry.
* Keep a bin near you when you eat. If you feel you are going to over eat, throw the rest of the food away.
* Wear a rubber band around your wrist, snap it against your skin when you're tempted to eat.
* Every calorie counts. When you're sitting, shake your leg, tap a pencil, never stop moving.
* If you're binging, don't swallow the food, spit it out.
* Clench your butt all the time. Guys like a nice ass and you burn calories too.
* Use your mind. Think about what the food would look like in your stomach after you've eaten it.
* Sabotage your food. Adding too much salt etc works great.
* Pinch all your fat and see how disgusting it is and then you'll think that if you eat you'll just add more to it.
* Obesity is disgusting. Remember that.
* Thinspiration is your best friend. You think you've lost weight? Trust me you haven't. Just check out the models online and you'll realise that.
* Live by the scales. It's right and you're FAT.
* Keep in mind - If your skinny friend eats a lot, that DOES NOT mean that you can do the same.
* Learn to love that empty feeling in your stomach. Trust me you'll feel repulsed when it starts getting full again.
* If you're hungry, spin around until you feel queasy.
* When you get hunger pains, curl up in a ball. It really helps them go away.

Mia tips

* Purge in your room if you can, this will lesson the suspicion of you going to the bathroom all the time.
* Put a few pieces of toilet paper in the toilet before you purge, this will stop the water from splashing back in your face.
* Right before you leave for the bathroom tell whoever you're with you have something in your eye and you need to go to a mirror, when you come back it'll explain the red eyes if you get them after you purge.
* Foods such as pudding, bananas, ice-cream, milkshakes, and anything else soft or smooth are easily purged.
* Let a Tums dissolve in your mouth to neutralize the acid.
* Mix a teaspoon of mustard and water together, and drink it right before you purge. It makes it easier to throw up.
* Hide a large cup in the bathroom and use it to measure how much you've purged.

[LSD]

These've been around for quite some time.

As someone who's known quite a few people that have suffered from eating disorders, I find these kind of "communties" to be incredibly scary. I've even managed to shut down a couple of them over the years, but, as is to be expected, new ones always spring up.

It's not surprising that something like this would happen, though. When you suffer from a perceptual disorder like an ED in which your conception of the world is so fundamentally warped, it is inevitable that, given the opportunity, you will be drawn to others who share it.

When you've become convinced that the world is conspiring to destroy you, finding someone who agrees with you is very appealing.

The anonymity and ease of the internet has only facilitated this kind of communication, which was otherwise quite risky as there is a constant fear with EDs about discovery.

The real danger here is that, anorexics especially, will forge relationships among themselves and pull away from the stablizing influence of society. Not to mention, of course, that those questioning their disorder are now able to rationalize it as a "lifestyle".

[RebelOutcast]

That is fucking scary, why the hell is someone turning a serious mental illness into some sort of cult/religion? Why the hell would someone glamourise it as a lifestyle choice?
Someone needs to write to the ISP responsible for hosting sites like that and see if they can get them shutdown or organise a petition to shut them down.
Do these people realise that these illnesses have led people to commit suicide in despair when they realise they can't loose any more weight? Or even that the illness itself can lead directly to death from malnourishment?
People taking advantage of people's weaknesses makes me feel fucking sick and yet they wonder why I have very little faith in the human race.

[LSD]

People taking advantage of people's weaknesses

THis isn't a matter of people setting up "pro-anna" websites to make money or somesuch. This is about anorexics trying to create safe communities for themselves, since they've cut themselves off from the world.

Unfortunately, the people making these sites are just as sick as the people they're hurting by doing so.

That's the nature of the disease.

[Yazman]

Well, I must say that people out there without the disorder as such who simply think "hm, I think I want to "go" or "be" anorexic now" really get me down. The fact such communities exist is a little scary.

Having grown up around it and having been raised by an anorexic person I do believe that LSD is right in some of what he has said here, although I am strongly opposed to those who think they can simply "get" or "take on" anorexia. It is quite a sick thing to do.

[encephalon]

I'm not sure how effective these websites really are. I can tell you from personal experience that anorexia has deep rooted psychiatric problems that aren't a simple matter of reading a web site.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2005, 06:39 PM
I'm not sure how effective these websites really are. I can tell you from personal experience that anorexia has deep rooted psychiatric problems that aren't a simple matter of reading a web site.
I think, however that pro-anorexia websites make such a condition acceptable or even desirable in the mind if the sufferer.

[rioters bloc]

Originally posted by Lysergic Acid [email protected] 12 2005, 02:42 AM
These've been around for quite some time.
yeah, from what ive read they peaked around 2000-2002 and their popularity is fast decreasing, particularly because a lot of the sites are being shut down.

at school, they taught us a lot about eating disorders, showed us movies and documentaries about them, gave us books to read which documented lives of ED sufferers. and after every class/movie/book, i had a very strong desire to become anorexic and hated myself because i knew that i wouldn't have the willpower to be able to. even though i knew how devestating the effects were [i was in hospital for some time for another illness and next door was the ward for anorexia nervosa suffers, 2 of the 11 girls i met there have since died :(] i still badly wanted to become anorexic. it's so strange, i thought i must be a freak - the more i found out about how bad it was the more i wanted to be skinny like the girls in the movies even tho i personally didnt find them at ALL attractive. after speaking to other girls in my class about it, turned out that a lot of them felt the same way. bizarre. and dangerous.

[encephalon]

I think, however that pro-anorexia websites make such a condition acceptable or even desirable in the mind if the sufferer.

True. I guess it would serve as a kind of sub-culture where their behavior is accepted. Still, I find it highly unlikely that it would make any converts of those who aren't already anorexic or bulemic.

Also, most anorexics will deny the fact that they're anorexic.. it's one reason why they first have to be able to admit it before they can deal with the problem.

[which doctor]

I once saw a TV special on anorexia and it talked quite a bit about these pro-ana websites. I find it very disgusting that people fall into this horrible disease. And anorexia is NOT attractive at all. I like a little more meat on my women.

[rioters bloc]

Originally posted by Fist of [email protected] 12 2005, 03:44 PM
I like a little more meat on my women.
ditto.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Do these sorts of things ("eating disorders") exist in the third world, or is it strictly a first world phenomenon?

[RebelOutcast]

I think it could just be a developed world thing.

[Gura]

and here are some 'tips' they give. it's fucking scary, at first i thought it was a joke...and then i realised that they were dead serious.
I thought some of them were jokes at first too.

I think it's mostly just a First-World disease. A lot of people in the Third-World know how important food is. http://www.addictions.net/default.aspx?id=16

[Dark Exodus]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2005, 09:32 PM
A lot of people in the Third-World know how important food is.
It's nothing to do with knowing how important food is, its simply that thin women, or incredibly thin women aren't seen as attractive in the 3rd world, since food is more scarce thin people are more common.

Being fat in a 1st counrety displays a lack of self-control, this is something both genders find unattractive. Being fat in the 3rd world may even be a positive quality, a sign of wealth or power.

This varies greatly from place to place I'm sure.

The cultural and societal pressures exerted by the media as well as normal people are at least part of the reason for anorexia/bulemia. Though I'm no psychologist.

[Arca]

That's...

Just...

Plain weird.

[Commie Rat]

ED's are not "diseases" they are mental conditions set up by the conditions of the world around the sufferer, they think they are disgusting brought on by low-self-esteem by thinking that the stick thin thing is 'good' and that they need to be this attractive slut that all the guys like. its fucking bullshit.

all sympathies to those who suffer from this, your beautiful, every one of you

[our_mutual_friend]

That is just plain disgusting

This is a disorder, not something that can be played on. Horrible horrible bastards. People who suffer from this should NOT be taken advantage of and their thoughts even more "twisted" on these awful websites. They should be helped, thats what people spend their time doing and then all hard work is undone if they see these HORRIBLE things.

I know someone who is severely bullimic. She's afraid of being put in a clinic. It's more likely that she'd go downhill if she was. Im pretty much the closest friend shes got. She scares the hell out of me and Im so worried about her sometimes. I have no idea what would happen if she saw one of these websites. She also self-harms. Is that played on too??

Quite a few of the people I know have been tempted by these things, hell, even I have. These indescribable websites should be shut down. So angry.

And it is a very developed (haha) world thing. Why would people who have little food and face famine want to make themselves physically attractive by making themselves thin? Healthiness for them is shown in curves. Seeing such anorexically thin models in the media helps no one either. It just shows you something to aspire to that you shouldnt become.

[Hiero]

they think they are disgusting brought on by low-self-esteem by thinking that the stick thin thing is 'good' and that they need to be this attractive slut that all the guys like

I don't think this is the cause and alot of academics are the same. This doesn't explain why a little percentage of females do this and the larger percent don't. It also doesn't explain why boys do it. Large percentage of girls do want to losse wait and may even diet, most are consumed by the ideas of pop culture body images, yet most don't go to the extreme of eatin disorders.

It's interesting in Anthropolgy this year we did a bit on Western body images, so we did a bit on anorexia. We watched a documentory from the 80s i think. It was interesting because alot of what the girls had to say was similair to what these sites say. I think that now with the ability of interenet these people have formed together and starting to turn it into a sub culture.

[Commie Rat]

Just becasue some of them dont go the full mile doesn't mean that it is not a pleausable casue.

Boys do it oftenly because obeisty is not masculine

hey i've even thought of it!

[che's long lost daughter]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2005, 10:52 AM
Do these sorts of things ("eating disorders") exist in the third world, or is it strictly a first world phenomenon?
Yes they do exist in my country, which is third world

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Yes but those have arissen in the last 10-20 years no?

In the Dominican Republic it's all but unheard of.

[our_mutual_friend]

In Britain things like bullimia and annorexia were more openly common, or at least diagnosed as a disorder around the late 70s, 80s.
Read - "second star to the left" (cant remember who by)
Since this time its all become more openly "acceptable" and more common.

You wouldnt really think that boys would have this kind of disorder, or even consider it. It's normally girls who you see as being insecure and worrying about body image all the time. But then again there is a lot of 'macho' behaviour which could easily make males feel insecure. Is this a main cause, does anyone know?

[rioters bloc]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2005, 11:30 PM
You wouldnt really think that boys would have this kind of disorder, or even consider it. It's normally girls who you see as being insecure and worrying about body image all the time. But then again there is a lot of 'macho' behaviour which could easily make males feel insecure. Is this a main cause, does anyone know?
from my [limited] knowledge, the pressure on men is not to become 'skinnier' per se but to be more muscular. so whereas with womyn you see an emphasis on not eating food and doing cardiovascular exercises such as walking running etc, with men you see them trying to gain as much muscle as possible by doing toning exercises [weights and what not] while not eating. at first the fat does convert to muscle, but there is rarely much weight loss [as muscle weighs more than fat] and this generally makes the sufferer become even more insecure and eat even less.

pretty much, they want to remain skinny [ie not have any body fat] but still be toned.

[rioters bloc]

and yes, to answer your question, i would imagine the increase in male sufferers of anorexia is due to the increasing sexualisation of men in advertising and in the general media, which leads to a desire among more and more men to be more toned and 'manly' in order to be considered hot.

which is shit.

some people use such stuff to point out that there is increasing equality between the sexes because now men are being objectified too. which is apparently meant to be a good solution to patriarchy :/

obviously though, neither sex should be objectified.

[ComradeOm]

Would that be classified as a disease as well? I'm aware that men have become far more self conscious of their bodies in the past decade (hell even I've started going to the gym on a semi regular basis) but I can't think of anyone... stupid (I can't think of another word) enough to think that you can become "buff" by not eating.

This is a new one for me :blink:

[rioters bloc]

Originally posted by [email protected] 29 2005, 08:06 AM
Would that be classified as a disease as well? I'm aware that men have become far more self conscious of their bodies in the past decade (hell even I've started going to the gym on a semi regular basis) but I can't think of anyone... stupid (I can't think of another word) enough to think that you can become "buff" by not eating.

This is a new one for me :blink:
ye, it's a disease - it also falls under anorexia.

i was in hospital for a coupla weeks a few years ago and the ward next to my room was the anorexia one. mostly girls but there was one boy there, he was only about 16. it was awful, he committed suicide.. so did two of the girls..

[Commie Rat]

When i think disease i think a virus or something detached from you as a person - a kind of forgine invader- and thus something i would not associate with anorexia

so the question i pose is where do we draw the line between mental and physical illness?

[LSD]

When i think disease i think a virus or something detached from you as a person - a kind of forgine invader

That would be the definition of pathogen; the definition of disease is far more broad.


Originally posted by Disease
A disease is any abnormal condition of the body or mind that causes discomfort, dysfunction, or distress to the person affected or those in contact with the person.


so the question i pose is where do we draw the line between mental and physical illness?

In many cases, we don't.

With recent developments in neurology, it is becoming more and more clear that the "line" between the brain and the mind is nonexistant. The mind is the brain, and hence is, itself, a physical entity. Accordingly, any disease of the mind is also a disease of the brain and hence physical.

Therefore while it is still useful, from a research perspective, to quantify diseases, in terms of treatment, it largely doesn't matter on which side of the "line" something falls, just so long as effective treatment can be administered.

Major Depressive Disorder, for instance, is simultaneously a disease of the "mind" and of the body. It is typically treated with both psychotherapy and psychopharmacology and both are highly effective.

So there is no need to draw any "lines".

[Commie Rat]

Interesting thatnks for clearing that up LSD

[TC]

This thread is such fascist B.S.


If people want to be really f'ing thin, there is nothing f'ing wrong with it and no one has any right to tell them what they are or are not allowed to do with their bodies!


Pro-Ana websites act as support groups for people affected by the issue, they aren't trying to 'recruit' anyone into a lifestyle, they're just trying to help other people like them cope with it better. They help people who are going to do it anyways, do it with better nutrition to stay in better health. Clinically anorexic BMI levels are not dangerious in of themselves especially if accompanied by proper nutrition and hydration. For instance, if you actually went to these sites, they give advice on how to avoid hurting yourself by doing things improperly and in a dangerious way.


Given that obesity is, after smoking, the most lethal "lifestyle choice" along with smoking (http://healthgate.partners.org/browsing/browseContent.asp?fileName=75143.xml&title=Deaths%20Attributed%20to%20Obesity%20Are%20O n%20the%20Rise), and that calorie restriction is actually the only proven way to extend maximum life (http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/science/jan-june05/aging_2-28.html), the fact that people think they have the right to pathologies people who compulsively restrict calories but not those who compulsively over-eat makes no sense.


But its not the health issues that bother people...its the audacity of these girls to want control over their own bodies, their own apperance (an apperance that as has been pointed out, is not especially desirable to most men), their own reproductive capabilities (it seems to horrify people that annorexic girls often stop menstrating...i've never understood why thats such a bad thing).


Part of why people are so intent on shutting down these pro-ana sites is the same reason why every time you hear about a kidnapping or disappearence in the news, its always a young, pretty, white female, and stories about the disapperance older, unnattractive, non-white, males are never reported. Its because annorexia primarily effects young pretty white girls and whats left of patriarchal social values including that found within so called radical feminism feels a much greater need to exhert paternalistic control over this population then any other in society. This isn't to say that young white females are the most oppressed, far from it, but they're the most frequently targets of paternalism. Society, and not just men but adult women, and even their peers influenced by the same attitude, has this sense that this population of people has to be protected, looked out for, and is generally incapable of doing it on their own; its in some ways an extension of fetishizing virginity where they wanted their daughters to remain 'innocent' of knowlege of their physicality. Open discussion of wanting to be skinny, just like mothers who get upset if their little girls use makeup "too young", similarly evokes in conservative minded people (whether they know it or not) the same feeling of wanting to protect these girls innocence (and ignorance.).


When the christian right wants to stop premarital sex, its not really about caring what guys do, its about not wanting to allow their daughters to have sex, about being horrified of the idea of it. Same with abortion often being restricted in teenagers, abortion "works" as an issue for the right cause they love the idea of keeping their teen girls from having sex, they love the idea of getting to control their bodies and they love the idea that they're incapable of making decisions for themselves about their own bodies.

I've never seen a campaign targeting websites that offer help in men doing heavy body building, which also produces a body type not especially attractive to most women and not especially associated with good health, that also has obsessive qualities...but since they're adult men doing it, no one has a problem with them trying to look the way they want.


Anorexic communities feel under attack becuase THEY ARE under attack. They're under attack by the people who want to censure what they write, to shut down their communities to prevent people like them from finding and connecting with other people like themselves. They feel under attack because they know that if they're under 18 the risk of their parents shipping them off to some "treatment facility" or mental instition until they've been "cured" (read: psychologically if not physical tortured, imprisioned, doped up, and forcefed,) and confess their sins (oh i mean "come to terms with their illness", thats the politically correct term for it). Everyone i know whose been forced into treatment for eating disorders has gone in a lot more sane, socially functional, relatively self esteeming, and emotionally stable, then they've come out. It really does destroy a lot of people and the threat of it is used to terrify people. They know that even if they're over the age of majority, that since society condemns it they'd be humiliated, people would watch what they're eating, feel an almost parental obligation to make sure they're 'taking good enough care of themselves' as if they're incapable of doing it themselves, and generally feel the right to invade these people's privacy.

In fact, if anorexia, or rather, wanting to be "underweight", weren't so stigmatized, there wouldn't be any pro-ana communities, any identifying red wristbands, any 'pro-ana' or 'pro-mia' culture at all, because they would instead simply be able to talk about it openly without fear of repression. The same way guys can talk about going to the gym openly without being told that they have an unhealthy obsession with their bodies or that their need for control over them is pathological.


For all of the advertising that supposedly glorifies thinness, it is unthinkable to openly find it desirable, whereas its not only acceptable but encuraged to prefer the opposite. While the media loved to rag on Calista Flockhart for being "too skinny" and speculate if she had an "eating disorder", pointing out pictures from angles designed to make her look boney and undesirably thin, it would be unthinkable for the same media to make the opposite comments that say, Oprah, is too fat, needs to lose weight, must have some psychological problems causing compuslive overeating. If the movie "Real Woman Have Curves" was instead called "Real Women Have Visible Hip Bones" and portrayed a white teenage girls acceptance of her underweight body as a positive and self-affirming thing, it would have been the the target of protests from people both on the christian right and the 'feminist' "left." No, actually, it simply could never have been produced in the first place.


For that matter, how many people would freak if they heard a very skinny girl say "i'm comfortable and proud of my body and weight and don't want to change my diet" while at the same time, having a positive reaction if the same statement were made by a somewhat overweight girl, or for that matter a boy, or an adult over 30 years old. Clearly from the health statistics its not a matter of skinny girls just having the problems when its overweight adults who are sheading years of their lives, its rather the attitude to which these different populations are treated. The same way that its historically been acceptable for aristocratic men to take many mistressess and sleep around but that women of the same class were required to maintain their virginty until marriage and then only sleep with one man, when he felt like it of course.

Or how about the "I like to see a little more meat on women" type comments made by guys in this thread? If the opposite comments were made on the thread in the commie club concerning women's lib, i'd predict that the same people who want to shut down ana sites would be calling for the poor guy who prefers skinny girls to be restricted or banned for sexism!

Wanting to shut down pro-ana sites is no different then wanting to shut down planned parent-hood, both are organizations that empower people to safely do what they want to with their own bodies, and both are under attack from social-conservatives.




Thin is Beautiful!


...now how many people were automatically offended by that statement without thinking about why?

[RebelOutcast]

This thread is such fascist B.S.

No it's not, we personally aren't acting to shut down these sites or restrict peoples freedom of speech.


If people want to be really f'ing thin, there is nothing f'ing wrong with it and no one has any right to tell them what they are or are not allowed to do with their bodies!

We're not saying people shouldn't be "really f'ing thin", just trying to stop the perpetuation of the idea that being stick thin is good and the right way to be, although we're not saying it isn't good and the right way to be. Nor are we telling people what to do with their bodies.


Pro-Ana websites act as support groups for people affected by the issue, they aren't trying to 'recruit' anyone into a lifestyle, they're just trying to help other people like them cope with it better. They help people who are going to do it anyways, do it with better nutrition to stay in better health.

None of the pro-anorexia or pro-bullemia sites I've seen are acting as support groups for people with a mental illness, all the ones I've seen are there to tell people that it's ok to be bullemic/anorexic and that being anorexic/bullemic is good for you.


Clinically anorexic BMI levels are not dangerious in of themselves especially if accompanied by proper nutrition and hydration. For instance, if you actually went to these sites, they give advice on how to avoid hurting yourself by doing things improperly and in a dangerious way.

But many of these sites don't give advice on how to stay properly nourished and hydrated, and many of the things they tell you to do are actually dangerous, such as the doing things in secrecy part, what happens if someone chokes to death while "purging" because no one was around to help them?


Given that obesity is, after smoking, the most lethal "lifestyle choice" along with smoking, and that calorie restriction is actually the only proven way to extend maximum life, the fact that people think they have the right to pathologies people who compulsively restrict calories but not those who compulsively over-eat makes no sense.

Calorie restriction isn't the only way to extend your lifespan, infact there is research to show that people who compulsively restrict their calorie intake actually have shorter life spans. Moderate exercise helps as does eating healthily; eating proper, balanced meals is certain to make sure that your body has the resources to maintain itself.
Compulsively over-eating and compulsively under-eating are caused by totally different things, over-eating can be caused by physiological and psychological problems, whereas anorexia and bullemia are caused purely by psychological problems, I.E; personal image problems, self-esteem problems. the treatments for the two types of disorders are totally different.


But its not the health issues that bother people...its the audacity of these girls to want control over their own bodies, their own apperance (an apperance that as has been pointed out, is not especially desirable to most men), their own reproductive capabilities (it seems to horrify people that annorexic girls often stop menstrating...i've never understood why thats such a bad thing).

It's proven that these girls want to be stick thin because they believe that's what society demands of them, when you only every seen thin people on TV and in advertisements is it surprising that weaker willed people will succumb to the imagery of capitalism? When the world around you is seemingly obesessed with being pleasing to the eye, and that being "beautiful" and thin are the only way you can get anywhere in life is it surprising that people with weaker minds will conform to these images?


Part of why people are so intent on shutting down these pro-ana sites is the same reason why every time you hear about a kidnapping or disappearence in the news, its always a young, pretty, white female, and stories about the disapperance older, unnattractive, non-white, males are never reported.

Don't know about anyone else but I often hear about people going missing and the on-going searches for them even if they are, "older, unnattractive, non-white, males".


Its because annorexia primarily effects young pretty white girls and whats left of patriarchal social values including that found within so called radical feminism feels a much greater need to exhert paternalistic control over this population then any other in society. This isn't to say that young white females are the most oppressed, far from it, but they're the most frequently targets of paternalism.

You only ever hear about anorexia affecting, "young pretty white girls" because that's who the media believe their target audience will most sympathise with.
Sorry but I found the rest of this statement to be incoherent.


Society, and not just men but adult women, and even their peers influenced by the same attitude, has this sense that this population of people has to be protected, looked out for, and is generally incapable of doing it on their own; its in some ways an extension of fetishizing virginity where they wanted their daughters to remain 'innocent' of knowlege of their physicality.

Symptoms of a patriarchal society, yadda yadda yadda......


Open discussion of wanting to be skinny, just like mothers who get upset if their little girls use makeup "too young", similarly evokes in conservative minded people (whether they know it or not) the same feeling of wanting to protect these girls innocence (and ignorance.).

It's partly ignorance that drives these girls to want to be skinny, as well as the imagery used by capitalists to get them to buy their products.
Kids shouldn't be using make-up, they don't need it, make-up is actually bad for your skin and the environment, mind you I don't think anyone needs it, why should we focus on aesthetics? Because the television tells us to?


When the christian right wants to stop premarital sex, its not really about caring what guys do, its about not wanting to allow their daughters to have sex, about being horrified of the idea of it. Same with abortion often being restricted in teenagers, abortion "works" as an issue for the right cause they love the idea of keeping their teen girls from having sex, they love the idea of getting to control their bodies and they love the idea that they're incapable of making decisions for themselves about their own bodies.

It's actually natural for parents to want to protect their children, especially their daughters, after all, you only need one male to inseminate hundreds of females, females are after all the ones that bear the child. Although the christian right capitalises on this instinct.


I've never seen a campaign targeting websites that offer help in men doing heavy body building, which also produces a body type not especially attractive to most women and not especially associated with good health, that also has obsessive qualities...but since they're adult men doing it, no one has a problem with them trying to look the way they want.

I don't see how this is relevant, but I have seen advertising that targets men who want to build up their body, no one has a problem with men body building and no one has a problem with them not building their body.
People don't have a problem with women wanting to be "beautiful", but people tend to criticise those who don't, society is shallow after all.


Anorexic communities feel under attack becuase THEY ARE under attack. They're under attack by the people who want to censure what they write, to shut down their communities to prevent people like them from finding and connecting with other people like themselves.

Again these sites are under attack because they're not beneficial to peoples health, they're actually detrimental.


They feel under attack because they know that if they're under 18 the risk of their parents shipping them off to some "treatment facility" or mental instition until they've been "cured" (read: psychologically if not physical tortured, imprisioned, doped up, and forcefed,) and confess their sins (oh i mean "come to terms with their illness", thats the politically correct term for it).

Less of the hyperbole please, don't exaggerate or sensationalise.


Everyone i know whose been forced into treatment for eating disorders has gone in a lot more sane, socially functional, relatively self esteeming, and emotionally stable, then they've come out. It really does destroy a lot of people and the threat of it is used to terrify people. They know that even if they're over the age of majority, that since society condemns it they'd be humiliated, people would watch what they're eating, feel an almost parental obligation to make sure they're 'taking good enough care of themselves' as if they're incapable of doing it themselves, and generally feel the right to invade these people's privacy.

I don't know where you live in the world but I know from personal experience that medical professionals are loathe to institutionalise people, they'll only do it if the person in question is a risk to themself or the people around them, institutions are the least healing places, "home is where the heart is".


In fact, if anorexia, or rather, wanting to be "underweight", weren't so stigmatized, there wouldn't be any pro-ana communities, any identifying red wristbands, any 'pro-ana' or 'pro-mia' culture at all, because they would instead simply be able to talk about it openly without fear of repression. The same way guys can talk about going to the gym openly without being told that they have an unhealthy obsession with their bodies or that their need for control over them is pathological.

Eh, the reason it's stigmatised because it's a mental disorder, mental disorders on the whole are stigmatised.


For all of the advertising that supposedly glorifies thinness, it is unthinkable to openly find it desirable,

I hear women and men openly discussing it almost everyday, it also seems that it's women who do it the most.


whereas its not only acceptable but encuraged to prefer the opposite. While the media loved to rag on Calista Flockhart for being "too skinny" and speculate if she had an "eating disorder", pointing out pictures from angles designed to make her look boney and undesirably thin, it would be unthinkable for the same media to make the opposite comments that say, Oprah, is too fat, needs to lose weight, must have some psychological problems causing compuslive overeating.

I've seen/heard people criticising celebrities for being overweight, I'm guessing you're in the states so you may not have heard about Vanessa Phelps, but she was openly criticised in glamour magazines for being overweight, as has Charlotte Church.


If the movie "Real Woman Have Curves" was instead called "Real Women Have Visible Hip Bones" and portrayed a white teenage girls acceptance of her underweight body as a positive and self-affirming thing, it would have been the the target of protests from people both on the christian right and the 'feminist' "left." No, actually, it simply could never have been produced in the first place.

Probably, Capitalism is all about aesthetics afterall, and no one likes a gaunt shadow of a person, a movie with that title would probably not have sold well.


For that matter, how many people would freak if they heard a very skinny girl say "i'm comfortable and proud of my body and weight and don't want to change my diet" while at the same time, having a positive reaction if the same statement were made by a somewhat overweight girl, or for that matter a boy, or an adult over 30 years old. Clearly from the health statistics its not a matter of skinny girls just having the problems when its overweight adults who are sheading years of their lives, its rather the attitude to which these different populations are treated. The same way that its historically been acceptable for aristocratic men to take many mistressess and sleep around but that women of the same class were required to maintain their virginty until marriage and then only sleep with one man, when he felt like it of course.

This is just turning into a skewed feminist rant, the real problem is actually capitalism not men, capitalism promotes patriarchal society because it's the status quo, trying to change the status quo could be damaging to profit.


Or how about the "I like to see a little more meat on women" type comments made by guys in this thread? If the opposite comments were made on the thread in the commie club concerning women's lib, i'd predict that the same people who want to shut down ana sites would be calling for the poor guy who prefers skinny girls to be restricted or banned for sexism!

This made me laugh, I hope that people in the CC respect other people's opinions and views and that a scenario like this wouldn't happen.


Wanting to shut down pro-ana sites is no different then wanting to shut down planned parent-hood, both are organizations that empower people to safely do what they want to with their own bodies, and both are under attack from social-conservatives.

Yes, "social-conservatives" attack both organisations, but they're not the only ones to attack them, people attack them for different reasons, this is just a skewed leftist-feminist rant.


Thin is Beautiful!

Thankyou for perpetuating another irritating capitalist ideal, I was hoping that you'd be enlightened enough to see the real cause of this problem rather than just ranting about how women should be able to do what they want to do, Thankyou for embodying everything about feminists that annoys me.

I hope everyone has the intelligence to ignore TragicClowns opinion because of her political statement, "I support [Capitalist] Western pop culture.".

[LSD]

If people want to be really f'ing thin, there is nothing f'ing wrong with it and no one has any right to tell them what they are or are not allowed to do with their bodies!

Clearly you have no understanding of the nature of Anorexia Nervosa as a disease. This isn't a matter of "choosing" to be "thin", anorexics are unable to recognize natural body states and their perception of self and identify is entirely warped.

Are you suggesting that those suffering from major depressive disorder by "allowed" to kill themselves at will, or should we attempt to treat them first.

This post-modern rejection of illness is so fucking tired. The mind isn't "seperate" from the body, it is a human organ and as such can get sick. Anorexia Nervosa is a depressive obsesessive-compulsive autism spectrum disorder, most likely related to gene-linked seratonin production.

More than a quarter of Anorexics will attempt to kill themselves and almost half of anorexic deaths are due to suicide. This is not a question of a "lifestyle", it is a question of a disease.

Like the Christian right, you are claming that everything is a "choice" and people must "pay for their mistakes". Anorexics shouldn't be helped if they're dieing, as most of them are, it's "their own damn fault".

How progressive. <_<


Pro-Ana websites act as support groups for people affected by the issue, they aren&#39;t trying to &#39;recruit&#39; anyone into a lifestyle

No, they are just providing triggers for those atttempting to heal themselves as well as providing encouragement for those suffering to continue to suffer.

And, by the way, the fact that you admit that anorexia is not a "lifestle" belies your claim that it&#39;s a "choice".


Clinically anorexic BMI levels are not dangerious in of themselves

Anorexia is the most deadly psychological diease. As a disorder it is, after all, characterized by compulsive starvation.

How you can see this as "not dangerous" is beyond me.


Given that obesity is, after smoking, the most lethal "lifestyle choice" along with smoking, and that calorie restriction is actually the only proven way to extend maximum life, the fact that people think they have the right to pathologies people who compulsively restrict calories but not those who compulsively over-eat makes no sense.

Of course it does.

Obessity only kills more because it is so prevalent. As a matter of per capita statistics, anorexia is far more dangerous than obesity is. Not to mention that eating is a natural human instinct. Overeating largely occurs due to genetic factors and the prevalence and availability of high calorie foods.

Anorexia, on the other hand, is a psychological disorder characterized by a complete warping of body image and identity. 20% of anorexics will die due to the disease, that&#39;s 1 in 5.

And, besides, this isn&#39;t a matter of "calorie restriction", it&#39;s a matter of self-starvation, it&#39;s a matter of anxiety, depression, suicide, starvation, and cognitive warping.

I know fat people and I know former anorexics. There is no question as to who suffers more.


But its not the health issues that bother people...its the audacity of these girls to want control over their own bodies, their own apperance

:rolleyes:

Oh, grow up.

I&#39;ve worked at eating disorder clinics where the entire management staff was female. In fact, around here anyways, almost all eating disorders are staffed by women. It isn&#39;t really a "prostigious" position for male doctors.

And, by the way, how do you explain male anorexia and the societal objection to it? It isn&#39;t as common, no doubt, but it certainly exists. Are these men victims of patriarchal domination? Are they "oppressed" because of their gender?

If this is all a "conservatice conspiracy against women" then why are men almost twice as likely to die from anorexia? Why are full5 5% of anorexic cases male?

And, by the way, whatever happened to your claim in the other thread that sexism "didn&#39;t exist" in an institutional form in the first world? Are you now revising that to say it only exists in the APA? :lol:


I&#39;ve never seen a campaign targeting websites that offer help in men doing heavy body building, which also produces a body type not especially attractive to most women and not especially associated with good health, that also has obsessive qualities

Who gives a fuck what&#39;s "attractive", the point is that body-building is not likely to result in death, anorexia is.

QED.


Everyone i know whose been forced into treatment for eating disorders has gone in a lot more sane, socially functional, relatively self esteeming, and emotionally stable, then they&#39;ve come out.

Well, I don&#39;t know where you live, but I can testify to precisely the opposite.

Of course, neither of our personal anecdotes are worth an ounce of salt, so let&#39;s look at the cold statistics which show that, post-treatment, Anorexics are healthier, happier, and live longer. Without treatment, they have a twenty percent chance of death.

hmmm.. tough choice.


In fact, if anorexia, or rather, wanting to be "underweight", weren&#39;t so stigmatized, there wouldn&#39;t be any pro-ana communities, any identifying red wristbands, any &#39;pro-ana&#39; or &#39;pro-mia&#39; culture at all, because they would instead simply be able to talk about it openly without fear of repression.

This isn&#39;t an issue of "repression", it&#39;s an issue of treatment. Anorexia isn&#39;t "stigmatized", it&#39;s merely identifed as the disease that it is.

I don&#39;t know what your training in psychology is, but from what you&#39;ve written so far, it would appear to be horribly lacking.


For all of the advertising that supposedly glorifies thinness, it is unthinkable to openly find it desirable

:lol:

Surely you&#39;re joking&#33;

"unthinkable to find [thinness] openly desirable"? :lol: :lol:

Who are considered the "hottest" women today? What&#39;s their BMI?

I don&#39;t know on what standard you&#39;re judgiing, but people like Angelina Jolie and Paris Hilton and Jessica Simpson, they&#39;re thin.

How many men consider Oprah to be "hot"?


For that matter, how many people would freak if they heard a very skinny girl say "i&#39;m comfortable and proud of my body and weight and don&#39;t want to change my diet"

If she was healthy, I honestly woudn&#39;t give a damn.

There are many people who are naturally skinny, there are others who maintain a healthy low weight through calorie reduction. As long as they are not starving themselves, I have no problem.

If they are putting their lives at risk, then I do. It doesn&#39;t mean that I have the right to interfere, but if someone is killing themselves I&#39;m not going to "shut up" about it. And if they are doing so because their brain is sick and they are unable to resist unhealthy urges, then I will do my damndest to get them help.

It&#39;s called human respect.

[bed_of_nails]

How many men consider Oprah to be "hot"?


I personally dont find most models to be attractive, but I must admit that I definately dont find Oprah attractive either.

[RebelOutcast]

This topic seems to be dead, but don&#39;t you find it scary that these sites have used religious lexicon in their content, words like psalm and creed?

[DisIllusion]

I think that anorexia and bulimia are definitely first-world problems. How many people starving in third-world countries can afford to lose nourishment by starving themselves or throwing it up?

But on the other hand, they aren&#39;t bombarded by advertisements portraying "hot" women as being horribly skinny.

I guess it&#39;s all a question of your culture&#39;s value system. If that is true, our culture&#39;s value system is seriously fucked up.

[Qwerty Dvorak]

VERY fucking scary :unsure:

[bed_of_nails]

I feel I should add that my girlfriend (who has modeled before) does not have an eating disorder, just an abnormally fast metabolism. She eats all the time in front of me.

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2005, 02:10 AM
They help people who are going to do it anyways, do it with better nutrition to stay in better health. Clinically anorexic BMI levels are not dangerious in of themselves especially if accompanied by proper nutrition and hydration. For instance, if you actually went to these sites, they give advice on how to avoid hurting yourself by doing things improperly and in a dangerious way.
Wait a minute, TC.
Anorexia is an intrinsically harmful dietary habit. These sites promote and defend deadly eating disorders.

Nobody is condemning anyone for helping people achieve a thin appearence. We&#39;re condemning people for defending the mentally psychotic notion that it&#39;s good to starve yourself.

[Jazzratt]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2005, 07:10 AM
This thread is such fascist B.S.
No it fucking well isn&#39;t.


If people want to be really f&#39;ing thin, there is nothing f&#39;ing wrong with it and no one has any right to tell them what they are or are not allowed to do with their bodies&#33; It&#39;s not about being really fucking thin, it&#39;s a medical disorder. It goes beyond being &#39;thin&#39; and taking in dangerously low amounts of nutrients.



Pro-Ana websites act as support groups for people affected by the issue, they aren&#39;t trying to &#39;recruit&#39; anyone into a lifestyle, they&#39;re just trying to help other people like them cope with it better.
Why not just stop them, after all they are MALNOURISHED, for fuck&#39;s sake.


They help people who are going to do it anyways, do it with better nutrition to stay in better health. Clinically anorexic BMI levels are not dangerious in of themselves especially if accompanied by proper nutrition and hydration. For instance, if you actually went to these sites, they give advice on how to avoid hurting yourself by doing things improperly and in a dangerious way. You cannot get to an anorexic BMI level without losing out on nutrition.


Given that obesity is, after smoking, the most lethal "lifestyle choice" along with smoking (http://healthgate.partners.org/browsing/browseContent.asp?fileName=75143.xml&title=Deaths%20Attributed%20to%20Obesity%20Are%20O n%20the%20Rise), and that calorie restriction is actually the only proven way to extend maximum life (http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/science/jan-june05/aging_2-28.html), the fact that people think they have the right to pathologies people who compulsively restrict calories but not those who compulsively over-eat makes no sense. No one is saying we should shovel pie into our faces, we&#39;re just advocating not eating one apple a week.



But its not the health issues that bother people...its the audacity of these girls to want control over their own bodies, their own apperance (an apperance that as has been pointed out, is not especially desirable to most men), their own reproductive capabilities (it seems to horrify people that annorexic girls often stop menstrating...i&#39;ve never understood why thats such a bad thing). You&#39;re fucking wrong there. It&#39;s not about women at all, being that blokes can suffer from anorexia and bulimia. Any argument from a feminist position is therfore null. Try again you fucking nut. You can control your reproductive system with the pill as well.



Part of why people are so intent on shutting down these pro-ana sites is the same reason why every time you hear about a kidnapping or disappearence in the news, its always a young, pretty, white female, and stories about the disapperance older, unnattractive, non-white, males are never reported. Its because annorexia primarily effects young pretty white girls and whats left of patriarchal social values including that found within so called radical feminism feels a much greater need to exhert paternalistic control over this population then any other in society.
What if you recognise that blokes suffer from it and still don&#39;t support it because it&#39;s a bloody stupid thing to do to yourself. There&#39;s no way you can possibly argue it&#39;s about "pretty white girls" What you don&#39;t seem to recognise that whilst the majority of anorexia sufferers are female, not all are pretty or white.



This isn&#39;t to say that young white females are the most oppressed, far from it, but they&#39;re the most frequently targets of paternalism. Society, and not just men but adult women, and even their peers influenced by the same attitude, has this sense that this population of people has to be protected, looked out for, and is generally incapable of doing it on their own; its in some ways an extension of fetishizing virginity where they wanted their daughters to remain &#39;innocent&#39; of knowlege of their physicality. Open discussion of wanting to be skinny, just like mothers who get upset if their little girls use makeup "too young", similarly evokes in conservative minded people (whether they know it or not) the same feeling of wanting to protect these girls innocence (and ignorance.). This would be a good argument, were any of us getting shocked about women doing it, rather than people doing it.



When the christian right wants to stop premarital sex, its not really about caring what guys do, its about not wanting to allow their daughters to have sex, about being horrified of the idea of it. Same with abortion often being restricted in teenagers, abortion "works" as an issue for the right cause they love the idea of keeping their teen girls from having sex, they love the idea of getting to control their bodies and they love the idea that they&#39;re incapable of making decisions for themselves about their own bodies. Neither premarital sex, nor abortion are medically stupid things to do.


I&#39;ve never seen a campaign targeting websites that offer help in men doing heavy body building, which also produces a body type not especially attractive to most women and not especially associated with good health, It is fucking associated with good health, it emphaisis healthy diet and plenty of exrcise. Most body builders eschew booze and cigs. Most body builders eat sensible amounts of food, usually trying to get as many nutrients and so on.

that also has obsessive qualities...but since they&#39;re adult men doing it, no one has a problem with them trying to look the way they want. Don&#39;t go near any naked flames with that huge starwman - most people recognise that everyone can suffer from anorexia.



Anorexic communities feel under attack becuase THEY ARE under attack. They&#39;re under attack by the people who want to censure what they write, to shut down their communities to prevent people like them from finding and connecting with other people like themselves. They feel under attack because they know that if they&#39;re under 18 the risk of their parents shipping them off to some "treatment facility" or mental instition until they&#39;ve been "cured" (read: psychologically if not physical tortured, imprisioned, doped up, and forcefed,) and confess their sins (oh i mean "come to terms with their illness", thats the politically correct term for it). They should be under fucking attack, they&#39;re being unhealthy. Also, what is empowering about

* I believe that I am the most vile, worthless and useless person to ever have existed on the planet, and that I am totally unworthy of anyone&#39;s time and attention.


Everyone i know whose been forced into treatment for eating disorders has gone in a lot more sane, socially functional, relatively self esteeming, and emotionally stable, then they&#39;ve come out. Really the ones I&#39;ve known have gone in utterly nuts and come out &#39;normal enough&#39;.

It really does destroy a lot of people and the threat of it is used to terrify people. They know that even if they&#39;re over the age of majority, that since society condemns it they&#39;d be humiliated, people would watch what they&#39;re eating, feel an almost parental obligation to make sure they&#39;re &#39;taking good enough care of themselves&#39; as if they&#39;re incapable of doing it themselves, and generally feel the right to invade these people&#39;s privacy. Would treating people for depression or alcholism be threatening or destructive? An invasion of privacy? Are you pro-alcho?


In fact, if anorexia, or rather, wanting to be "underweight", weren&#39;t so stigmatized, there wouldn&#39;t be any pro-ana communities, any identifying red wristbands, any &#39;pro-ana&#39; or &#39;pro-mia&#39; culture at all, because they would instead simply be able to talk about it openly without fear of repression. The same way guys can talk about going to the gym openly without being told that they have an unhealthy obsession with their bodies or that their need for control over them is pathological. YOu cannot equate an unhealthy eating habit with a healthy habit of exercise. By the way you&#39;re aaware that women go to fucking gyms as well. Consider the Women&#39;s only gym in Brighton? You are aware that quite a few men go to gyms to perv on the ladies there?



For all of the advertising that supposedly glorifies thinness, it is unthinkable to openly find it desirable, whereas its not only acceptable but encuraged to prefer the opposite. While the media loved to rag on Calista Flockhart for being "too skinny" and speculate if she had an "eating disorder", pointing out pictures from angles designed to make her look boney and undesirably thin, it would be unthinkable for the same media to make the opposite comments that say, Oprah, is too fat, needs to lose weight, must have some psychological problems causing compuslive overeating. If the movie "Real Woman Have Curves" was instead called "Real Women Have Visible Hip Bones" and portrayed a white teenage girls acceptance of her underweight body as a positive and self-affirming thing, it would have been the the target of protests from people both on the christian right and the &#39;feminist&#39; "left." No, actually, it simply could never have been produced in the first place. Don&#39;t be a silly fucker. If you read NOW&#33; you&#39;ll notice that models of the same size are lambasted or praised in equal measure, just based on who is more liked. Also magazines like Heat are often having a go at the &#39;curvier&#39; women for &#39;letting themselves go&#39;.



For that matter, how many people would freak if they heard a very skinny girl say "i&#39;m comfortable and proud of my body and weight and don&#39;t want to change my diet" while at the same time, having a positive reaction if the same statement were made by a somewhat overweight girl, or for that matter a boy, or an adult over 30 years old. I don&#39;t know, but they&#39;re idiots.

Clearly from the health statistics its not a matter of skinny girls just having the problems when its overweight adults who are sheading years of their lives, its rather the attitude to which these different populations are treated. The same way that its historically been acceptable for aristocratic men to take many mistressess and sleep around but that women of the same class were required to maintain their virginty until marriage and then only sleep with one man, when he felt like it of course. Quite a lot of groups of unhealthy people are treated badly. It appears that you don&#39;t give a fuck about older males, the primary group for alchohlism. You fucking hypocrit. What about depression? Do you think we should support depressed people? Where does a group become &#39;worthy&#39; of your support?


Or how about the "I like to see a little more meat on women" type comments made by guys in this thread? If the opposite comments were made on the thread in the commie club concerning women&#39;s lib, i&#39;d predict that the same people who want to shut down ana sites would be calling for the poor guy who prefers skinny girls to be restricted or banned for sexism&#33; Red herring.


Wanting to shut down pro-ana sites is no different then wanting to shut down planned parent-hood, both are organizations that empower people to safely do what they want to with their own bodies, and both are under attack from social-conservatives. It&#39;s closer to want to close down websites supporting alchohlism or drug addiction.



Thin is Beautiful&#33;


...now how many people were automatically offended by that statement without thinking about why? I don&#39;t know. But most people are arguing against unhealthy eating rather than being thin. Nothing wrong with being thin, but there is a difference between thin and anorexic. Anorexic may be incorectly used to colloquially refer to people who are thin, but that&#39;s it.

Now fuck off.
Seriously fuck off.
You&#39;ve just been arguing against a mahoosive strawman in the form of this paternalist sexist.

[bloody_capitalist_sham]

Being 6 foot tall and weighing 5 stone is not beautiful.

Thats whats eating disorders lead too.

also, because you chuck up so much your teeth can get all messed up and coroded.

And perhaps the most scary thing, is that as you chuck up so much you erode the back of your throat. One day that will burst and you will gush out blood.

Yah, im getting wood just thinking about it. yum yum ;)

[Physco Bitch]

As far as i see it these sites are indeed a bad influence on people, but only the type of people who are like that already or hate their weight sp much that they will end up doing it anyway. I could have a personal say in this - lets just say i am still battling very hard with my eating disorder. But i can also honestly say i would never go on one of those websites , never have and never will. It is not something that i ever thought was "cool" and i didn&#39;t do it so i could look like any models. I have found that the majority of people with serious eating disorders don&#39;t go on these websites , most of them are to ashamed - that is why they rather suffer in silence for so long. But i still reckon they shouldn&#39;t be aloud on the web - just in case impressional people do go on there and then see it as a good idea and a good way to lose weight or as i have heard some do it for attention. As for being able to get hold of bracelets so you can announce yourself to fellow people with eating disorders - that is just disgusting - and anyone who is doing this for phsycalogic reasons wouldn&#39;t buy one of these anyway.

[adz170]

Originally posted by rioters bloc+Nov 28 2005, 11:15 AM--> (rioters bloc @ Nov 28 2005, 11:15 AM)
our_mutual_friend[email protected] 28 2005, 11:30 PM
You wouldnt really think that boys would have this kind of disorder, or even consider it. It&#39;s normally girls who you see as being insecure and worrying about body image all the time. But then again there is a lot of &#39;macho&#39; behaviour which could easily make males feel insecure. Is this a main cause, does anyone know?
from my [limited] knowledge, the pressure on men is not to become &#39;skinnier&#39; per se but to be more muscular. so whereas with womyn you see an emphasis on not eating food and doing cardiovascular exercises such as walking running etc, with men you see them trying to gain as much muscle as possible by doing toning exercises [weights and what not] while not eating. at first the fat does convert to muscle, but there is rarely much weight loss [as muscle weighs more than fat] and this generally makes the sufferer become even more insecure and eat even less.

pretty much, they want to remain skinny [ie not have any body fat] but still be toned. [/b]
okey , iam not sure where you get those facts or ideas from but here is my opinion , i think "ana" is problem which belongs to both genders , however men who are "ana" arent "ana" because they are intimidated by the mascalinity of various advertising promotions e.g calvin klein or ralph lauren. A good thing to point out is that a guy who thinks hes fat , probably is a bit overweight , however if he thinks " i know ill work out and stop eating , then i will be more muscular " then he is a fool . To build muscle you need to eat , although theyre is all kinds of crappy steroids and "MAJOR MUSCLE GAIN" crap in the market , nothing is better then real food. When i go out for a meal , which is always a buffet :D , i will eat till iam stuffed , simple as that . i do however do alot of martial arts and running and the occasional gym trip ( once every 4 months :D ) , and iam in good shape and i get all my energy for this from eating . So i cant imagne how people can expect to build muscle when they dont eat , if anything they would just grow really skinny and become "mia". :mellow: :blink: :(

[TC]

This topic is almost a year old. I believe all of the recent criticism directed towards my position on it has already been addressed a year ago in another thread, in these posts:

http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php...st&p=1292057497 (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=49013&view=findpost&p=1292057497)

http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php...st&p=1292057631 (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=49013&view=findpost&p=1292057631)

http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php...st&p=1292059736 (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=49013&view=findpost&p=1292059736)

http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php...st&p=1292059751 (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=49013&view=findpost&p=1292059751)


I have also addressed the systematic, conceptual catagorical flaws in psychiatric diagnosis and psychiatric intervention here:

http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=54168

which applies to anorexia as well.


As to the specific subject of pro-ana websites, i stand by my origional position that support groups for people labeled as &#39;anorexic&#39; that help them both avoid more physically harmful behaviors in achieving their desired outcome and harmful psychiatric intervention, while providing a sense of community and solidarity for a group of people often marginalized, is in general a good thing (although that certaintly doesn&#39;t mean that all websites labling themselves as such are positive or useful).

I would like to direct people with access to peer reviewed journals online (through their university or whatever) to this article by Dr Debra Ferreday:

http://ics.sagepub.com/cgi/content/abstract/6/3/277

And this article by Dr Julie Hepworth and Ruaidhri Mulveen:

http://hpq.sagepub.com/cgi/content/abstract/11/2/283


And i would encourage people not to simply accept uncritically the prejudices of the capitalist media and capitalist psychiatric community.

[Severian]

Update: Study finds (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16098915/site/newsweek/), not surprisingly, that eating disorder patients who visited these websites were sicker for longer.


Well intended or not, the sites are "not benign," says Dr. Rebecka Peebles, a specialist in adolescent medicine at Stanford University&#39;s Lucile Packard Children&#39;s Hospital. In "Surfing for Thinness: A Pilot Study of Pro-Eating Disorder Web Site Usage in Adolescents with Eating Disorders," published this week in Pediatrics, the journal of the American Academy of Pediatrics, she and her colleagues reported the results of a survey of eating-disorder patients and their parents. They found that patients who used pro-eating-disorder sites were sick longer and spent less time doing schoolwork. Patients who used both pro-eating-disorder and pro-recovery sites were admitted to the hospital more times than nonusers.

Emphasis added.

[TC]

Update: Study finds, not surprisingly, that eating disorder patients who visited these websites were sicker for longer.


QUOTE
Well intended or not, the sites are "not benign," says Dr. Rebecka Peebles, a specialist in adolescent medicine at Stanford University&#39;s Lucile Packard Children&#39;s Hospital. In "Surfing for Thinness: A Pilot Study of Pro-Eating Disorder Web Site Usage in Adolescents with Eating Disorders," published this week in Pediatrics, the journal of the American Academy of Pediatrics, she and her colleagues reported the results of a survey of eating-disorder patients and their parents. They found that patients who used pro-eating-disorder sites were sick longer and spent less time doing schoolwork. Patients who used both pro-eating-disorder and pro-recovery sites were admitted to the hospital more times than nonusers.



Emphasis added.




Naturally people who accept that their lifestyle choices are not pathological are going to have a longer duration of "illness" than those who find them disturbing, and the former would find pro-ana sites appealing while the later would not. Likewise people who use the internet regularly are going to be observed by their parents (who were the ones interviewed in the study) to spend less time on homework, so the study doesn&#39;t show anything negative about pro-ana websites, severian just rather obvious correlations.

One thing that the article you sited Severian which was written from an obviously patriarchal perspective, was that
Pro–eating disorder site users did not differ from nonusers in health outcomes
according to the study&#39;s abstract.

So if anything the study simply demonstrated that pro-ana websites are not harmful.

[YSR]

Hardy-har-har&#33;

Anyone realize what perspective on mental illness that TC is espousing here?

I&#39;ll give you a hint, it&#39;s the one she accuses everyone else on this site of being&#33;

[Severian]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10, 2006 05:32 pm

Pro–eating disorder site users did not differ from nonusers in health outcomes
according to the study&#39;s abstract.
Link? Google doesn&#39;t turn up that phrase.

You&#39;ve seen this study previously, maybe? You seem to have quite the interest in the subject. Is it personal?

Anyway - mentally ill people often do have trouble accepting that they&#39;re mentally ill....

Edit: found it second time around. It&#39;s a pretty shaky link (http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/rss/current.xml) Here&#39;s the abstract:


Pro-eating disorder Web sites are communities of individuals who engage in disordered eating and use the Internet to discuss their activities. Pro-recovery sites, which are less numerous, express a recovery-oriented perspective. This pilot study investigated the awareness and usage of pro-eating disorder Web sites among adolescents with eating disorders and their parents and explored associations with health and quality of life.
PATIENTS AND METHODS. This was a cross-sectional study of 698 families of patients (aged 10-22 years) diagnosed with an eating disorder at Stanford between 1997 and 2004. Anonymous surveys were mailed and offered in clinic. Survey content included questions about disease severity, health outcomes, Web site usage, and parental knowledge of eating disorder Web site usage.
RESULTS. Surveys were returned by 182 individuals: 76 patients and 106 parents. Parents frequently (52.8%) were aware of pro-eating disorder sites, but an equal number did not know whether their child visited these sites, and only 27.6% had discussed them with their child. Most (62.5%) parents, however, did not know about pro-recovery sites. Forty-one percent of patients visited pro-recovery sites, 35.5% visited pro-eating disorder sites, 25.0% visited both, and 48.7% visited neither. While visiting pro-eating disorder sites, 96.0% reported learning new weight loss or purging techniques. However, 46.4% of pro-recovery site visitors also learned new techniques. Pro-eating disorder site users did not differ from nonusers in health outcomes but reported spending less time on school or schoolwork and had a longer duration of illness. Users of both pro-eating disorder and pro-recovery sites were hospitalized more than users of neither site.
CONCLUSIONS. Pro-eating disorder site usage was prevalent among adolescents with eating disorders, yet parents had little knowledge of this. Although use of these sites was not associated with other health outcomes, usage may have a negative impact on quality of life and result in adolescents&rsquo; learning about and adopting disordered eating behaviors.

So let&#39;s see they were hospitalized more, but the sites aren&#39;t harmful? Could it be that "did not differ from nonusers in health outcomes" just means they didn&#39;t die at a higher rate? Most anorexics who survive probably stop starving themselves eventually....grow out of it if nothing else.

[iffandonlyiff]

As a member of several eating disorder groups/forums, I&#39;d like to point out that pro-ana/mia is looked down upon by a large majority of people who actually have disorders. Even using the term "pro-ana" can get a person torn apart as a &#39;wana-rexic&#39; in most myspace groups. To quote a friend from one of these groups, "No one who actually has an eating disorder is pro-ana."

While I think pro-ana is a sad reflection of our society, I do not see it having much to do with anyone who has an eating disorder. The majority of &#39;pro-ana&#39; girls on myspace, for instance, are of normal weight yet claim to be diagnosed anorexic. They&#39;ll list a BMI of 19-21 as their lowest BMI at current height, then claim to have been hospitalized for anorexic. (For reference: a person must have both a BMI of 17.5 or lower and have lost three consecutive periods to be diagnosed as anorexic.) I find it very troubling, though, that most of these girls are at a normal/healthy weight yet have such a low self esteem that they would like to develop a disease.

[cecieby]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11, 2005 04:11 pm
That is fucking scary, why the hell is someone turning a serious mental illness into some sort of cult/religion? Why the hell would someone glamourise it as a lifestyle choice why indeed--and what else is new---

[piet11111]

another example of how capitalism promotes impossible standards that poeple strive to achieve.


TC i guess seems to desire to achieve this impossible ideal.

[redxroses]

Originally posted by [email protected] 27, 2005 01:08 pm
She also self-harms. Is that played on too??


From my own experience, I think there are a lot of supportive communities on the net for self harmers especially ones like Recoveryourlife.com, if you go on there though its obvious that so many self harmers are also suffering from eating disorders.
Its about self worth and mostly control.
You cut yourself, no one else because you are in the driving seat
You don&#39;t eat because no one else can control that part of you.

You know i tihnk that these websites are the ones that people who are thinking about "becoming" anorexic or bullimic go to for tips, at first its the curiosity of what it feels like, like many of you have said, the more you read or hear bout these people the more you want to be like them but after that you just can&#39;t stop and then you end up going back to these websites to feel some sort of support.