Has anyone actually converted?

[FleasTheLemur]

Other than me converting from small "L" libertarianism to Marxism, has anyone else switched from one side to another?

[Ownthink]

Originally posted by [email protected] 6 2005, 05:30 PM
Other than me converting from small "L" libertarianism to Marxism, has anyone else switched from one side to another?
Me from Liberal to staunch Marxist.

[Scars]

Anarchist-> Marxist

[Un-Amäraкin Bastard]

Catholic Republican to semi-nonreligious Socialist...

[Wanted Man]

From democratic socialist to marxist-leninist.

[Clutch]

Imperialist/Capitalist -> Socialist

[visceroid]

semi christian, neo conservative = marxist

[RedAnarchist]

Centre-Right => Liberal => Trotskyist => Anarcho-Communist :hammer:

[Jimmie Higgins]

Very few people are "rasised" as radicals, so most people here I'd imagine had a non-revolutionary world-view before becoming marxists or anarchists.

David Horowitz was supposedly a radical marxist in the 60s and is now rabbidly pro-imperilaism and all-round right-wing snot. I find it a little hard to believe because of the way he portrays marxism. He says marxists try and trick people into believing them... if you were a marxist and you went around purposfully tricking people, you were never really a marxist to begin with.

[rioters bloc]

Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2005, 09:49 AM
Anarchist-> Marxist
marxist --> anarchist

[Led Zeppelin]

Crypto Nazi to Leninist.

[Militant]

Liberal-->Conservative-->libertarian-->Trotskyist-->Marxist-Leninist

[ComradeOm]

Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2005, 12:25 PM
David Horowitz was supposedly a radical marxist in the 60s and is now rabbidly pro-imperilaism and all-round right-wing snot. I find it a little hard to believe because of the way he portrays marxism. He says marxists try and trick people into believing them... if you were a marxist and you went around purposfully tricking people, you were never really a marxist to begin with.
You see a fair bit of that around. Radicals in the 60s who read Marx because everyone else was. Now that everyone is shitting on Marxism they're jumping on the bandwagon again.

As for me: Democratic socialist ---> Marxist ---> Leninist

[Graham_Pogo]

Marxist---> Anarcho-Communist

[fukuoka_yakuza]

nothing at all-socialist

but seriously, most people arent marxist or anarchist before anything, especially americans, who are pretty much brought up to think communism=ohmygosheviloppresivedictatorshipwheremi lllionsofpeopledie

[Forward Union]

Not sure. I was forced to go to a catholic school, and catholic church, I had a largely working class/Catholic-Liberal upbringing. And for a long time I genuinely thought I believed in God.

I had never really been allowed to hear other viewpoints. Not that anyone actively stopped me, such information was just unavailable and I was made to presume there was no other way. The first alternative book I read was Che's Bolivian Diary. The prelude really made me realise that this "Communism" is actually exactly what I had been thinking to myself for a long time.

Not sure if this is convertion.

[Qwerty Dvorak]

(irish) republican -> republican socialist, though i would not call this converting...

[Ownthink]

Some of these scare me. Crypto Nazi? Conservative? Catholic Right Winger?

[Jimmie Higgins]

Originally posted by Marxism-[email protected] 7 2005, 02:54 PM
Crypto Nazi to Leninist.
Are you serious? Please tell us what you used to believe and how this radical change of ideas happened.

[Forward Union]

Originally posted by Marxism-[email protected] 7 2005, 02:54 PM
Crypto Nazi to Leninist.
Im really REALLY not surprised.

And please remember, I was never a Catholic right winger. I was compeltly oblivious to what the term ment. I was just forced to go along with it.

[viva le revolution]

pro-capitalist- Anarchist- marxist-leninist

[Lacrimi de Chiciură]

Well, pretty much just...

child sharing/mimicking his parents beliefs -> communist, then specifically marxist

"parents beliefs" being liberal democrats and protestants.

[Led Zeppelin]

Are you serious? Please tell us what you used to believe and how this radical change of ideas happened.

This was when I was 13/14, well, I wasn't really a crypto-Nazi, more like a crypto-Fascist.

I believed in the "rebirth" of the "Persian empire" etc.

Basically the same shit Fascists believe in today.


Im really REALLY not surprised.

I really REALLY don't give a shit.

I mean, what the fuck are you trying to imply here? That I'm "bad" for what I used to "believe" as a 13/14 year old?

I'm sure Marx wasn't a "good person" for being a Jew as a kid, or maybe even, "god" forbid, being a Capitalist. :o

[Zingu]

Finnish Nationalist/Fascist to Marxist.

Basically the same thing as M-L, believed in the "Greater Finland" and saw Mussolini's Fascism as a good solution to the problems with Capitalism.

Then I started to read Marx, and that all changed.... :blink:

[Comrade Corinna]

Anti-Communist Romanian ----> Politically Indifferent ------> Liberal Democrat (by means of high school education) -----> Democratic Socialist-----> Red Commie *****.

[Shiva Star]

I went from Anti-Communist to a Marxist-Leninist.

[arielle]

militaristic-republican--> left-democrate--> facist-communist(thinking that everything should be equal through military...this all came upon after being "recruited" into JRROTC in my school--> anarchist and never lookin' back

[Ownthink]

Wow, I never would imagine the amount of righties that have converted!

[CrazyModerate]

Centre Right(realist ho ho ho, well thats what I thought I was. I wasn't anti communist, I didn't have any politics just my positions on a few things were right wing such as gay marriage and the war in Iraq)----->Centre-Left(I became against the war in Iraq)------->Generic far left------> democratic socialist(realized Lenin/Stalin/Castro/Mao were all just despots. Might have had good intentions, but their countries just became dictatorships)-------->Back to centre left. I don't believe in forcing things on people.

[Noah]

Here's me:

Apathetic - racist (in general I hated Jews and black people. But now I am just against zionist ideals and the attitudes of some 'gangster' people and their crews who idolise 50cent, I couldn't stop saying n!gga or Jew! I had to control myself it was that bad) - Centre slightly left - socialist .

[Ownthink]

Originally posted by [email protected] 8 2005, 06:00 PM
Here's me:

Apathetic - racist (in general I hated Jews and black people. But now I am just against zionist ideals and the attitudes of some 'gangster' people and their crews who idolise 50cent, I couldn't stop saying n!gga or Jew! I had to control myself it was that bad) - Centre slightly left - socialist .
Eww.

[truthaddict11]

anti-capitalist/ anarchist to libertarian pro capitalist bastard hahaha

[RedAnarchist]

I was so different a few years ago - i mean, i used to beleive in Creationism! :blink:

I wonder what i would have thought as a 15 year old protestant centre-rightist who blindly supported america and the government, if i was told that by the time i was 19 i would be an anarcho-communist, anti-monarchist, anti-theist, anti-rascist, anti-imperialist, anti-capitalist agnostic? :lol:

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

You'll notice alot of people that flip back and forth between the "left" and the "right" aren't working class.

Class concious proletarians don't have that liberty. We know that we need to end wage-slavery, exploitation, and alienation first hand.

I completely rejected any belief in a higher being at age 7 (which caused a permanent split with my mother, she sent me away and I haven't talked to her since), always had left leaning ideas though they were undeveloped until around age 14 when I upheld council-communism/anarcho-syndicalism. At around age 16, after alot of studying I became a communist, and remain one to this day, 11 years later.

[YKTMX]

Exactly, Companero. Good post.

[CCJ]

Originally posted by [email protected] 6 2005, 10:35 PM
Other than me converting from small "L" libertarianism to Marxism, has anyone else switched from one side to another?
I've always been on the left. However, I've been many different things:

Liberal -> Marxist -> Marxist-Leninist -> Non-Marxist Communist (Fourier) -> Anarcho-communist -> Libertarian socialist -> Democratic Socialist -> No label

[Comrade-Z]

Liberal --> Green Party supporter --> libertarian communist (A):hammer:

[Raisa]

I still aint shit.

Nah, I been the same my whole life. I always knew the system was the devil. Even before I knew what the alternative was from a book. Cause I never felt its bounty very much any way.

[Ginger Goodwin]

..

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

"my people"? what the fuck? You truly are an idiot if you don't realise that white people (or any other colour for that matter) aren't exactly a monolithic culture.

[Black Dagger]

Apparently my people are an obstruction to Socialism.

You need to work on your comprehension skills, no one has said that 'white people'- define that term- what is white? who are white people? Define these terms- no one has said that 'white people' are an obstruction to socialism, that is the fallacious spin that you have given this argument. Our arguments are based on abolishing oppressive social relations, CLASS relations, not skin colour- stop trying to play the victim, it's obvious to everyone here that your position is based on misrepresentation and fallacy.



If I cant be white, its not my revolution.

That is a disgusting butchery of Emma Goldman, just disgusting, urgh. Perhaps if your perspective wasn't completely detached from the actual discussion your posts would be somewhat bearable, but no, you're wrapping yourself in 'white pride', defending 'your people' against a threat that does not exist. Of course it is perfectly reasonable in your mind, to posit the situation in such a manner, because it's quite obvious that all you want to do is defend the concept of white privilege, and 'pride'- you're not engaging with the actual issues, because if you did you'd be forced to drop this 'defender of the faith'-type attitude you're basking in at the moment, you disgust me.



I guess its time to fold up my red flag and give Social Democracy a try.

Why not try national socialism? I'm sure the nice people at Stormfront would relish your tales of horrible anti-white leftists, who are a threat to your 'people', the 'white race'.

[Big Boss]

My parents are catholics and socialist. They teached me both principles and today I'm a socialist/catholic! :D

[CCCPneubauten]

Republican -> Democrat -> Green Party -> Socialism -> Communist -> Anarcho-Communist...yeaaaa buddy.

[TheKingOfMercy]

Communistic (by ubringing, my family are mostly party members or at least believers)
->
Socialistic (extremism has never suited me)
->
Totalitarian Benevloent Imperialism (face it, they have better clothes :P)

[Magraheed]

Nothing to magraheedism =)

[truthaddict11]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2005, 05:53 AM
You'll notice alot of people that flip back and forth between the "left" and the "right" aren't working class.

hey i used to be working class then i got tired of working for peanuts and being miserable all the time complaining about the "bourgeosie" and went into managment, if you are comfortable waiting for a revolution that will never come fine, but I want to make a decent living for myself and have a career in the here and now

[C_Rasmussen]

Stauch conservative Catholic---Apolitical yet very anti-conservative Catholic. Its kinda confusing, even for me.

[Comrade Hector]

US Democrat-----> Nazi Fascist------> Marxist-Leninist and Soviet nostalgic

[Cooler Reds Will Prevail]

Centrist Democrat -> Left-Wing Democrat -> Communist Dreamer -> Democratic Socialist -> Communist Pacifist -> Militant Revolutionary Communist

[leftist resistance]

Left-leaning pro-Communist --> non-Marxist anti-capitalist pro-liberation 'yet-to-be-labelled'-ist

:lol: :ph34r:

[warnerraider]

I've only been on this forum for a weekend, but I've already been banned to this section because I argued some communist assumptions might not be so true. However, I added that I'm willing to convert and eager to learn, so long as what someone says makes sense and can explain it. Instead, I get a boot in the ass, curtesy de RedStar, and I guess kept at bay as a least-suffering-for-least-amount-of-people-ist that leans far left in this section of the forum.

Special Note: I got banished as soon as I asked RedStar about a bunch of stuff, questions he either couldn't or wouldn't answer. That's funny, I thought an element of communism was the eradication of ignorance.

[freedumb]

apathetic (6-14yrs old) ->

then I had a political/intellectual awakening and started caring ->
australian labor party supporter/social democrat (15yrs) ->

realised that the mainstream ALP is more interested in power than serving the people ->

committed Marxist for about a day, never really swayed by Leninism yet still ardent supporter of Cuban Revolution. (16yrs) ->

Currently swaying between Chomskyist libertarian democratic ideals and leftism through the parliamentary proccess. Although I hold leftist ideals I don't really believe I deserve the tag 'leftist' since I have not engaged in any activism or any action at all, for that matter.

[RadicalLeft62]

i had a political identity crisis until i stabiled out at about 15. I was first an american democrat like my mother, then some believer in free-trade principalities. At the end of the summer before 10th grade, i became sort of a socialist. i joined the socialist party, but IM NOW A MILITANT MARXIST.

[Correa]

Raised Marxist.

[Purple]

I used this board to collect information which has pretty much convinced me that the radical left is the logical place to be!

[BattleOfTheCowshed]

I was raised in a pro-Labor Union centre-left Democratic Party (US) supporting household. At about age 14-15 I began reading more and realized that I was definitely on the left, more left than most Democrats and began considering myself a Democratic Socialist who supported Democrats in electoral politics. At about age 17 I began reading stuff by Marx, reading about leftist movements in history and about historically leftist revolutions and slowly came to the realization that I was a Marxist/Communist/Revolutionary Socialist/Trotskyist, which I consider myself to this day.

[KGB5097]

When I was younger (I mean like 10 years old...) I was completely obcessed with "American Culture". That is, I was a flag waving idiot....

Growing up in an apolitical family I never knew alot about anything political, so I just did what everyone else did and pledged to the flag... in retrospect, American schools condition children to be very "Patriotic" (You know, the new word for "Blindly Nationalistic").

Long story short, I got sick of watching the news and seeing America screw people over, plus my family was poor as hell. I eventually decideed that the system that I supported was at fault and became an anarchist. In that whole scene I met lots and lots and LOTS of posers, which got me sick of anarchy real fast....

Eventually I met some Marxists, read into what they were saying, and haven't looked back. I've been a Marxist for around 4 years now...

[Big Boss]

Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2005, 06:58 PM
Raised Marxist.
Hey! Are you a Machetero also? (because of the avatar)

[Rawthentic]

It was this past summer, after 9th grade. I was somewhat left already from my parents, but ever since I watched Motorcycle Diaries I have launched myself in this voyage in which I have learned that I am a socialist and have learned to live by the ideals of Che Guevara. I know alot about these themes now but I am still eager to learn more. I have considered becoming a guerrilla in the future because I have also realized that I am willing to die for my people in Latin America who are so oppressed by US imperialism. Time will define me. So long comrades

[CCCPneubauten]

Che and his image seems to get raped these days.

[Correa]

Originally posted by Big Boss+Nov 28 2005, 03:15 PM--> (Big Boss @ Nov 28 2005, 03:15 PM)
[email protected] 27 2005, 06:58 PM
Raised Marxist.
Hey! Are you a Machetero also? (because of the avatar) [/b]
Yes, I see you quote Albizu Campos. I see you like Metal Gear too. :D

[Dooga Aetrus Blackrazor]

Political Change:

Capitalist - Democratic Socialist - Libertarian Socialist

I prefer evolutionary means as opposed to a revolution. Anti-revolutionist in most cases, too.

Religious Change:

Christian (United Church of Canada) - Agnostic - Agnostic Atheist - Atheist & Antitheist.

Techically agnostics are atheist, in a sense, but not to the degree of a self-proclaimed atheist.

[Correa]

Another Menshevik! :D

[poetofrageX]

apathetic dumbass kid->Democrat(brainwashed into believing in the 2 party system)->Commie Marxist/Black Panther (read Animal Farm in school, and decided not to listen to all the bullshit they tell you in school about the book being anti-communist, and my dad encouraged my reaserch into Communism, himbeing a Commie himself who tried to avoid indoctrnating me early on)

Actually, my dad would rather i just read about Communism instead of actually doing something, since he knows that most revolutionaries end up dead before 40. He would prefer i just get a good job and keep my Commie beliefs to myself so i can succeed in a cappie system we both hate. but screw that!

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

born communist

[OkaCrisis]

As soon as I came to understand that there was a Political world, I knew I didn't agree with it (gr. 7 ish). In my youth, I knew that I was oppressed, but felt helpless/powerless to change anything. When I realised in high school that there were real solutions- things called Communism, Socialism, Anarchism, I became an "Anarchist", purely out of opposition to the Capitalist system.

Now, diehard Socialist.

"I was an Anarchist too, until I realised that I was a confused Socialist."

[I'm the red under your bed]

democratic socialist>moving slowly to hardline Authoritarian socialist.

[Chavista]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2005, 10:59 AM
You'll notice alot of people that flip back and forth between the "left" and the "right" aren't working class.
I think that depends on the country you are in. Yes, in some countries (eg Venezuela) it is often true that working class votes working class and rich votes rich, but in other countries (eg the USA) the people who are the most beaten by their government love it! You think all of those people in the Red States are rich? Think again.

As for me, I think I am mellowing a bit with age (well, I'm not that old). I used to be more of a Stalinist, but now my thinking is closer to that of Hugo Chavez.

[Amusing Scrotum]

Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2005, 09:39 PM
born communist

Me too. :)

Only joking. I went from Liberal proto-Greeny to Left Communist.

[Raisa]

Has anyone converted?

Hell if I care.
If you think this system is so great and dont see the need for a people's state, your opinion doesnt mean much any damn way.

Hows that for revolutionary.

[Correa]

Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2005, 05:44 PM
As for me, I think I am mellowing a bit with age (well, I'm not that old). I used to be more of a Stalinist, but now my thinking is closer to that of Hugo Chavez.
Going from Stalin to Chavez is a radical change in ideology. I suppose I used to change my mind everytime I took a piss as a teeniebopper. Anyways you are moving in the right direction. :rolleyes:

[Bugalu Shrimp]

I used to live in dreamland .. Then I woke up and thought - FUCK THESE PEASANTS! Let's make some hard cash..

[ioncannon152]

I've only been on this forum for a weekend, but I've already been banned to this section because I argued some communist assumptions might not be so true.

Poor guy. What exactly did you argue?

[James]

14 or 15 suddenly started getting interesting in socialism. I don't think i really knew enough to be actually classified till i was around 16. I think considered myself socialist/communist. Was involved in all the stop the war stuff and also No Sweat (whom i still support), SWP dare i say it, and even flirted with CPGB or whatever they are called (there are two i think). Was intereste din anarchism.

I was a typical che-lives member.

Then through college i questioned the arguments of the anti war movement, this was of course after the invasion had taken place (i thought that an imediate withdrawal would leave the iraqi's even worse off). Which led me to question my beliefs in general. Many on the left seemed to be uniting with islmaic fascists. I was very interested in Robert Owen at this time.

Fascism and totalitarianism became my main interest.

My first year of uni exposed me to even more extremely dogmatic left wingers. I developed personally into a socialist who was sternly anti totalitarian. This has recently developed into a strong believer of old fashioned liberalism (i would say locke's letter on toleration is a strong influnce on me). A process carried on by my second year.

So i'm now about to leave my teenage years, and i have gone from believing in violent revolution to impose communism, to a more "soft socialism", to a belief in liberalism (as in toleration) and democracy. Totalitarianism and fascism is what i oppose. In whatever form it comes in.

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

Originally posted by Armchair Socialism+Dec 7 2005, 08:47 PM--> (Armchair Socialism @ Dec 7 2005, 08:47 PM)
[email protected] 4 2005, 09:39 PM
born communist

Me too. :)

Only joking. [/b]
ban!

[Spark]

Stalinist/Soviet Nostalgic -> Leninist -> God Knows What.

[Abood]

Capitalist --> individualist anarchist --> communist (wasn't sure) ---> Marxist.
As soon as i got really into politics I realized that communism is the right path. I was a capitalist/anarchist before that.

[VonClausewitz]

Leftist of some description (it's in the family, three CPGB members) ----> Pretty hardcore authoritarian (state-capitalism if you like, Soviet style) -----> Less extreme Authoritarian (I suffered from perestroika :lol: )

One thing I utterly despise is liberalism. It really is starting to become something of a danger in what is an increasingly dangerous world. We need security and strength, not pandering and appeasement. (and No, I don't support Bush, or Blair).

[Gaius]

I've actually changed my custom title to curious Liberal as that is most accurate for me. I definately want a communist utopia and the abolition of currency and oppression, but disagree with most communists here on the best way to acheive that. I don;t believe capitalists are intrinsically evil, and don;t advocate their murder like so many people here do.

I think that we can achieve capitalism by using capitalism to defeat capitalism. I'm writing an article for this right now.

[FULL METAL JACKET]

Originally posted by Marxism-[email protected] 7 2005, 09:57 AM
Crypto Nazi to Leninist.
That's a rather extreme change. What made you become a Leninist?

[vox_populi]

Marxist-Leninist (My parents taught me :P)---->Syndicalist----->Marxist-Leninist---->Pseudo-Religous Leftist (the drugs do that to you :D)---->Atheist Autonomous Marxist (can't really describe it...)

[Hegemonicretribution]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2006, 04:59 PM
I think that we can achieve capitalism by using capitalism to defeat capitalism. I'm writing an article for this right now.
I want to see that article, because that s one of the best comments I have seen posted ;)

Seriously though, I know what you mean, and I don't see why you don't see most as agreeing with you. "Capitalism carries within itself the seeds of its own destruction"

Capitalism will provide its own crisis point. If you are referring to democratic socialism, or reform as a means to an end, then I can only suggest reading the billion or so threads against this.

[YSR]

Raised in the social democratic tradition > Anarchist

[OkaCrisis]

My reply from a few months ago is now outdated. :)

So the transition has been:

"Anarchist"> Socialist> communist anarchist

[Wanted Man]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2005, 01:01 AM
I've only been on this forum for a weekend, but I've already been banned to this section because I argued some communist assumptions might not be so true. However, I added that I'm willing to convert and eager to learn, so long as what someone says makes sense and can explain it. Instead, I get a boot in the ass, curtesy de RedStar, and I guess kept at bay as a least-suffering-for-least-amount-of-people-ist that leans far left in this section of the forum.

Special Note: I got banished as soon as I asked RedStar about a bunch of stuff, questions he either couldn't or wouldn't answer. That's funny, I thought an element of communism was the eradication of ignorance.
The "problem" for interested newbies here is that this forum is in the first place made for those who already are communists to discuss with each other. So, the question "Do the workers need to be emancipated at all?" is never discussed outside OI. Unrestricted discussion on communism can be found on www.soviet-empire.com/ussr (http://www.soviet-empire.com/ussr), if you're still interested.

Anyway, I haven't really gone into much detail on this topic. I was raised in a Christian family, Catholic father and Protestant mother. Neither of them are really conservative(my mother even sympathises with socialist christianity and the like), but they weren't exactly raising me as a revolutionary either, to say the least! I've always gone to christian elementary schools, and I just sat there quietly without speaking up for a long time. Only when I was like 10, I started rejecting religion. Not from a Marxist point of view or anything, I just didn't give a fuck about it, and found the existence of a Supreme Being deciding what happens to me rather unlikely(I figured he'd have to be a pretty sadistic fuck, as my life was rather shitty at the time).

Still, I was always interested in learning a lot(just not about religion!) and when I turned 8 I got this big encyclopedia from my grandparents. It even had an item on communism, and although it had the usual "Lenin was a dictator", one thing it did get right was communism being about workers' power, so I only wondered why exactly "we" had been fighting something like that for so many years. Still, I didn't exactly grasp the need for political ideology at that age, so I didn't quite end up a communist just yet.

My parents nearly always vote for some sort of social-democratic party(Labour or GreenLeft), and I pretty much accepted that as we never really had any financial troubles(my father works as an archivist, my mother teaches at a special school). Then came the Iraq War, with "political support" from our centre-right government. I was 13 or something and I started to see that shit was fucked up, although I was more concerned with school and the like than with politics, so I still pretty much stuck with vocally supporting the social-democrats while not bothering with activism or anything.

Then we finally got ADSL internet, so it was easier for me to learn about politics that didn't quite make the headlines. I'd been interested in Russian history and culture for a while, so I ended up learning about Marxism-Leninism. At that time(late 2004) I became sympathetic to Lenin, as well as Che Guevara, and became involved with the communist youth movement in my country, but I still hadn't really become educated on politics. That only happened in the summer of 2005, which I consider a defining period because I actually started reading and understanding that shit(you've got to do something on a boring vacation with the family...) and I never looked back ever since.

[Gaius]

I don't necessarily mean democratic socialism. We could buy private property, convert it into communes, build factories and then split ownership among the workers etc. It would take one hell of a benefactor but if done correctly it could really take off!

[loveme4whoiam]

Used to be a staunch monarchist ---> became a die-hard (if under-educated) Communist,apparently Libertarian Marxist.

[More Fire for the People]

My beliefs?
Conservative democrat / crypto-fascist -> Social democrat -> Trotskyist -> a bunch of rather bullshit ideologies in attempt to justify irrationality -> Marxist

[Hegemonicretribution]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2006, 07:16 PM
I don't necessarily mean democratic socialism. We could buy private property, convert it into communes, build factories and then split ownership among the workers etc. It would take one hell of a benefactor but if done correctly it could really take off!
A few problems with this approach, and I don't mean any disrespect here I am just trying to give an honest appraisal:

This legitimises the capitalist system, and the workers would not have a leg to stand on, as the ownership would inevitably be someone's.

If you mean the workers purchasing the means of production as a collective, then you may be overlooking a few things. The workers as a whole are often not richer than the minority ruling class, this is the problem. Their money comes as a handout for subsistance (they are essentially slaves) from the ruling class, so entering competition with them is not always viable. You are overlooking the problem of economic compulsion.

As for the communes....I have posted my views on this elsewhere. At retirement (whenever that is for me) if I can not achieve what I want I want within our society I would not mind withdrawing to a commune as it is a good lifestyle. If everyone did this then probably could move towards communism, but I don't see this as realistic. It is a nice dream, but the ruling class would stamp this out quicker than you can imagine.

We have strength in numbers, but not in wealth.

[Lamanov]

Confused mixture of anti-imperialist nationalism and Yugoslav-"socialism" nostalgia ---> open communist tendency ---> almost Trotskyist ---> Ultra-Left (Left-Communist, "libertarian" Marxist, open to serious anarchist tendencies but not anarchist)

[More Fire for the People]

DJ-TC: Did you really live under Yugolsavian socialism? If so, how would you compare it to Leninism, left-communism, and corporatism?

[Gaius]

I don't think it would be stamped out. Besides, it would be a benefactor who would hand over legal recognition to the workers. He would become one of the workers himself. As I said before, it would be using capitalism to destroy capitalism. Death and suffering doesn't solve everything.

[Dean]

Episcopalian liberal Democrat - "Hindu" (I'd no name for my religion at the time) socialist - Agnostic communist - Athiest libertarian communist.

My parents (a librarian and a union representative) raised me not to discriminate between people, and that has remained a core value of my worldview since. The works of Fromm shed common - sense light on how society works and how people become indoctrinated.

One of the most important lessons I learned from Fromm's writing - though he did not state it himself - was that religion is not just some belief in supernatural things, but simply dogmatism and blind faith. A girl who went to my high school was an avid christian who attempted to convert nonbelievers, and it was astonishing how little she really changed in how she acted towards the world after she gave up religion... and frightening that she was as dogmatic and violently anti-religious as she was pro-christian when she used to be religious.

[red team]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2006, 12:24 AM
I don't think it would be stamped out. Besides, it would be a benefactor who would hand over legal recognition to the workers. He would become one of the workers himself. As I said before, it would be using capitalism to destroy capitalism. Death and suffering doesn't solve everything.
what you fail to realize is that the any social system becomes self-perpetuating after a specific mode of economic activity becomes wide spread. Individual actions never accomplish anything other than a temporary delay while the individual is replaced by someone else who is willing to carry out policies favourable to the continuation of the economic system. If a few CEOs drop dead or resigned tomorrow the only result is a few more job openings for CEOs. As with any social system it will naturally attract the most dedicated people to management positions who have the most interest in it's continuation, so it would be very unlikely that those in top positions of power will be willing to make a compromise, nevermind that in the act of compromising they will be undermining the whole system in the first place which makes their social position (their title) unnecessary. Example, there are no more overseers and slave catchers now because their titles are no longer necessary. It's the same analogy with CEOs, Venture Capitalists and Presidents. It's unlikely they're willing to compromise because they'll need to be dedicated fanatics working for the continuation of the system in order to hold those titles in the first place and if they do compromise they'll be making their own titles obsolete.

[Militant]

Marxist-Leninist --> Marxist-Leninist with Pro-Israel overtones (non-expansionist Zionist?).

[bezdomni]

^ How the hell does that work? Marxism-Leninism is supposed to be an internationalist ideology.


As for me.

Reformist liberal -> libertarian -> Anarchist -> Left communist -> Marxist-Leninist -> Trotskyist

Furthermore, what is crypto-fascism?

[Dean]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2006, 02:02 AM
Marxist-Leninist --> Marxist-Leninist with Pro-Israel overtones (non-expansionist Zionist?).
Are you Jewish?

[Ol' Dirty]

I've always been a leftist.

[Militant]

Originally posted by Dean+Mar 20 2006, 02:33 AM--> (Dean @ Mar 20 2006, 02:33 AM)
[email protected] 20 2006, 02:02 AM
Marxist-Leninist --> Marxist-Leninist with Pro-Israel overtones (non-expansionist Zionist?).
Are you Jewish? [/b]
Yes. Well, ethically, I don't practice.

To Clown: I'm an internationalist at the end of the day, but seeing as we exist in a highly fragmented world, I see the value of Israel. And support its continued existence, but not its growth.

Crypto = hidden

Like you espouse fascist ideology under a different name, like conservatism. :lol:

[Oh-Dae-Su]

Catholic to atheist

iv never been on the left and never will, thats economically and government terms. Although i do apreciate some Socialist ideals.

also, i read someone say, "wow i never imagined so many righties converting", well you have to understand that we are in our teen years, the "revolutionay" ideas are raging inside of us constantly, and many feel like they want a drastic change and be part of something drastically different and radical, and thats why many young people associate themselves into the left.

[red team]

I've always been a leftist.

Social Democrat-->Socialist-->Social Democrat-->Avakianist-->Marxist (Leaning Heavily Toward Technocracy)

[Cult of Reason]

Disregarding the time before age 8 (the age where you are almost always credulous and you think goose-stepping looks cool):

Always been atheist.

Classic Liberal (8-14) ---> Social Democrat "Old Labour" (14-15) ---> State Capitalism with the encouragement of small businesses and suppression and criminalisation of larger ones (15-16) ---> Technocrat/Vaguely left wing (The former can pretty much fit with anything that has no money or economic classes) (16-17) ---> Technocrat/Anarchist/Anarchist Technocrat (The latter is a combination of the previous two, which necessitates an Anarchist revolution first) (17-now, currently I am 18).

[Hegemonicretribution]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2006, 12:24 AM
I don't think it would be stamped out. Besides, it would be a benefactor who would hand over legal recognition to the workers. He would become one of the workers himself. As I said before, it would be using capitalism to destroy capitalism. Death and suffering doesn't solve everything.
You don't think it would be stamped out? I would like to think it wouldn't be, but this idealistic view negates all observation of capitalist behaviour. They will preserve their wealth anyway they can. They do this through the state, and through over the economic power they exercise.

Even if there was a Bill Gates type benefactor (which I highly doubt is something we should sit around and wait for), they do not constitute the majority of the ruling class. On their own they can inflict damage upon the economy, but you would need a decent proportion of them to pull all their money out of the economy and place it in communal projects at the same time for this to have any marked effect. Are you suggesting we can get 50 or so of the 100 richest people to back communal projects, toppling capitalism whilst giving the workers the resources they need?

These people barely pay the workers, they became successful capitalists by not being benevolent. Any such sentiments may seem plausible amongst some relatively wealthy do-gooders, but not amongst a majority of the super-rich.

If the enough benefactors were to place capital into such a project, causing economic collapse, then it isn't using capitalism to beat capitalism as such. It is a co-ordinated opt out by innitiated by the people that benifit from it. Nice idea, but I can't see it happening.

Death and suffering don't solve everything you are right, but capitalism causes these as it is. Many people criticise the USSR for its policies which were inexcusable in many cases, but they overlook the fact that many would have died had industrialisation not taken place.

I think you have picked up a negative revolutionary vibe from more authoritarian accounts of revolution. In my oppinion at least, it is the vast majority of the population refuses to be slaves for a tiny minority of the ruling class. They take the means of production, they don't ask for them. What can this tiny majority do to prevent this, the power only comes from their manipulation of the majority.

It is when a majority movement exists that the mandate is with them, and action they take is therefore justified. In fact the aggressors are the minority that want to prevent them in their quest for an equal society. No doubt they would be willing to use violence to protect their interests, anything the workers do is really self defence.

[Orthodox Marxist]

Liberal - Libertarian Marxist - Orthodox Marxist.

[Eleutherios]

liberal -> Marxist-Leninist -> libertarian Marxist -> Republican -> anarcho-communist



(Okay, so I made up the Republican part...)

[Propagandabuster]

Ownthink says..


Me from Liberal to staunch Marxist.

Shouldn't you change your name to Groupthink?

[Lamanov]

Originally posted by Hopscotch Anthill+Mar 19 2006, 10:40 PM--> (Hopscotch Anthill @ Mar 19 2006, 10:40 PM) DJ-TC: Did you really live under Yugolsavian socialism? If so, how would you compare it to Leninism, left-communism, and corporatism? [/b]

I was born in 1984, so I was to young to "live it".

Historically speaking, it was a more "liberal" form of state capitalism.


Orthodox Marxist
...Orthodox Marxist.

Ehhh? "Orthodox Marxist"?

[Atlas Swallowed]

Independant(Ralph Nader supporter) to Anarchist/Socialist.

[Atlas Swallowed]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2006, 06:53 AM
Ownthink says..


Me from Liberal to staunch Marxist.

Shouldn't you change your name to Groupthink?
Should you not change your name to:
Limbaughs Anal Cyst or CIAs Stoodge or Governments Butt Plug or American Idiot or Mamas' Lil man etc....