North Korea

[Geddan]

What is the situation in North Korea?

[Dhul Fiqar]

Bad.

And not socialist.

--- G.

[ComradeJunichi]

LOL! Short, broad, general, lacking of intellectual thought gives you an answer of short broad general and lacking of intellectual thought.

I really don't know, the only things I've heard was from US and South Korean media. Obviously, that would be a very bias approach. I plan on taking a trip to the DPRK during my world tour.

I have been in contact with a North Korean delegate, and he explains to me why the DPRK is socialist. However, he doesn't not state me facts...well I don't know if they are. "The workers are equal, no prostitution, no drugs, everyone lives in harmony and peace, everyone is happy, etc".

I really wouldn't know, and I doubt anyone here knows too much about it either.

[Dhul Fiqar]

I know a Canadian guy that has had to spend extended periods in Pyongyang doing negotiations for Western governments that would rather not subject their personell to the kind of abuse that the DPRK governmetn seems to give anyone that shows up.

He says it's more like a hueg cult, with Kim Il Sung as their God. Nothing at all socialist about it except that you can be shot for running private enterprise ;)
Still, I'd love to go there, he says it's the most interesting place on the face of the earth, and this guy has been a diplomat for a couple of decades so he's been around.

If you want the DPRK side of the story, check out http://www.kcna.co.jp/index-e.htm as it is their official news service. Pretty wacky stuff there from time to time though, like their dead departed leader stopping hurricanes and such ;)

--- G.

[Saint-Just]

The situation in the DPRK is a socialist economy and society under construction. The Worker's Party of Korea is currently under the leadership of Kim Jong Il. The DPRK was founded and has developed under Marxism-Leninism. However, that is very broadly put, more specifically the catalyst for the revolution and Korean policy is the ideological standpoint of Juche created by Kim Il Sung. The economy is a centrally planned state economy in which all living necessities are supplied by the state. The system of government is democratic centralism.

The most important factor to understanding the DPRK is Juche, here are some qoutes from Kim Jong Il:

'The Juche idea is a new philosophical thought which centres on man. As the leader said, the Juche idea is based on the philosophical principle that man is the master of everything and decides everything. The Juche idea raised the fundamental question of philosophy by regarding man as the main factor, and elucidated the philosophical principle that man is the master of everything and decides everything.'

'Man was already outstanding as he emerged from the world of nature. He exists and develops by cognizing and changing the world to make it serve him, whereas all other material lives maintain their existence through their subordination and adaptation to the objective world.'

'Man is the most precious being in the world, and his interests are more valuable than any others in the world. Everything in the world has its value only when it serves man.'

'In our time the masses of the people have emerged as true masters of the world, and through their struggle the world is being changed more and more to serve the masses.'

'In nature the motion takes place spontaneously through the interaction of material elements which exist objectively. In contrast, the social movement is caused and developed by the volitional action and role of the subject. The subject of the social movement consists in the masses of the people.'

'The subject of history is the working masses, not the reactionary exploiting classes. The working masses carve out and develop history, but the exploiting classes try to arrest and turn back the historical advance. All exploiting classes, after all, constitute a reaction against history; they are the target of revolution. The whole course of the existence of class societies has been a history of sharp struggles between the creators of history and reaction against history between the masters of revolution and the targets of revolution, that is, between the working masses and the reactionary exploiting classes. Society has advanced and developed through these struggles.'

'Only by seizing state power and the means of production in their own hands and by establishing a socialist system can the working masses free themselves from exploitation and oppression and create history consciously as true masters of society and their own destiny.'

'The process of development of a socialist society under the leadership of the working class is the process of working-classizing the whole society. When the whole society is reshaped completely on the pattern of the advanced working class under its leadership'

'The struggle to transform nature is an effort of the masses to create material conditions for an independent life, free from the bitters of nature. If people are to live and make progress. they must work to harness nature and produce material wealth. Only through the transformation and conquest of nature can they free themselves from its fetters and prepare material conditions for an independent life.'

'At the dawn of human society, people's creative power was weak, and their ideological and cultural levels were very low. By their age-long hard-fought struggles the masses have increased their ability to conquer nature, enriched their knowledge, developed the productive forces, and steadily raised the levels of their ideological consciousness and culture. Modern science and technology, progressive ideas and culture which have been developed by human society, are without exception the result of the historical struggles of the popular masses.'

'The age-long ceaseless struggle of the masses for Chajusong can win its ultimate aim by building socialism and communism. The struggle for socialism and communism is the highest stage of the struggle for Chajusong. It is a struggle to end once and for all the exploitation of man by man, the oppression of class by class, and the domination of state by state in human society, to wipe out all remnants of old societies handed down through history, and to finally free the people from their shackles. In a communist society the masses of the people will lead a completely independent life as masters of nature and society and as true masters of their own destiny. '

'Capitalism subordinates even man�fs thinking and action to money considerations, but socialism and communism make the masses of the people true masters of society, and therefore, give full play to the revolutionary enthusiasm and creative zeal of the masses.'

'The idea that man is the master of everything and decides everything, in other words, the idea that man is the master of the world and his own destiny and is the transformer of the world and the shaper of his destiny, is fundamentally opposed to idealism and metaphysics. Idealism leads to mystical theory that the world and man's destiny are controlled by the supernatural "might", while metaphysics leads to the fatalistic belief that everything in the world is immutable and, accordingly, man must be obedient to his predetermined destiny. The idea that man is the master of the world and his own destiny and is able to transform the world and shape his destiny, is based on the premise of the materialistic and dialectical viewpoint which denies mysticism and fatalism.'

'The Juche idea propounded the basic principle of revolution that the masses of the people are masters and the motive force of the revolution and construction and, on this basis, rendered it possible to evolve new revolutionary theories required by our time.'

[socialist ballistix]

I heard it was bad. But i dont really know, as i got that information form NEWSWEEK, the mag, who has dubbed him "dr.evil"

[Gavin]

'Chairman Mao', you make me feel like banging my head against a brick wall.

[sin miedo]

I personally don't consider anything without a democracy or republic a socialist state. I understand the necessity for a strong leader in the beginning, but after so many years, democracy should be introduced. Socialism without democracy turns into a stifling dictatorship.

That being said, I know very little about NK (which goes for everybody except those actually in NK, and even some inside it, I believe). From the looks of it too me, though, Kim is a nut, and the whole personality cult surrounding him is a bit weird, and no way to run a country. Of course, I have no way of knowing for sure what's exactly going on there.

[Saint-Just]

"'Chairman Mao', you make me feel like banging my head against a brick wall."

Yes...well feel free

[Xvall]

That was actually quite funny..

[ComradeJunichi]

Again, more conjectures. All I hear is "the looks to me, in my opinion, I think", anyone have any facts to base this on?

Good quotes on the ideas of Juche, Chairman Mao.

(Edited by ComradeJunichi at 11:16 pm on Jan. 29, 2003)

[Larissa]

Their site is http://www.korea-dpr.com/

[Palmares]

Chairman Mao appears to know much. Though, I am not convinced on all points. Is it that N Korea is just portrayed worse than it is? What you said can only be explained this way, otherwise it would all appear to be faux.

[ID2002]

I not against N.Korea because it is socialist or communist. I am purely a hard lefty...but I think using child labour in munitions factories is criminal. Their is a weak education system too...people are running out of resources because all of it has gone to waepons programs.

Not good. Seems Stalinistic

[CompadreGuerrillera]

i dont like N.Korea, they have no freedom of speach, or any other freedoms, it is lenist gone stalinist--not good--ppl cant speak out, they have to be very obidient, like 1984, the N.Korea iseverything socialism wasnt supposed to be, any power that restricts freedoms of any kind, is an enemy of mine, and i consider it fascist, freedom is what socialsm fights for, and N.Korea is not socialist in personal respect, altho its economy is pseydo-communist
the media makes it worse but its still bad

[CommissarFluffy]

honestly, i do not consider North Korea socialist. Simply having complete government control of production and mouthing pseudo-revolutionary platitudes does not make a government socialist. Socialism demands that the control of the means of production, and the government, be in the hands of the workers themselves, not controlled by some elietist ruling clique. North Korea is nothing more than harshly authoritarian state capitalism.

[KickMcCann]

KickMcCann: " I am the King of England!"

Does that make me the King of England?

Kim Jung Il: " I am a Communist!"

Does that make him a Communist?

Good advise: Be weary of people who like to talk more than act, people who would rather tell you how great they are instead of acting great and saying nothing about it.

Talk is shallow, and so is the DPRK's leadership.

[Spiritual Minded]

LOL!


thanks for the link

[Gavin]

North Korea is a fascist state (basically Juche is a stalinist ideology with xenophobic elements) that is turning capitalist...

It is not on the left wing of the political spectrum; the government does not have the mandate of the people since it was imposed on them by Stalin after WW2, therefore the means of production are owned by the elite in government and not the people.

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

KickMcCann tnx for your avatar change!

[Saint-Just]

'Again, more conjectures. All I hear is "the looks to me, in my opinion, I think", anyone have any facts to base this on?'

My view too - I don't see any concrete allegations against the DPRK.

'Is it that N Korea is just portrayed worse than it is? What you said can only be explained this way'

I know a number of criticisms of the DPRK. The usual rhetoric is that its oppressive. Actual concrete evidence is almost non-existent. The U.S. claims that it is 'starving its own people', thats why it was listed as part of the 'axis of evil'. I have already explained that problems with production are due to the fact that the DPRK's power output is at 10% of what it was in the 1970's due to sanctions (TWEA - Trade with Enemy Acts). The U.S. claims this is not due to the fact they they can't import any fossil fuels except as direct aid from the U.S., they claim that economic mismanagement is intrinsic in socialism - thats merely erroneous ideological rhetoric.


'Simply having complete government control of production and mouthing pseudo-revolutionary platitudes does not make a government socialist. Socialism demands that the control of the means of production, and the government, be in the hands of the workers themselves, not controlled by some elietist ruling clique. North Korea is nothing more than harshly authoritarian state capitalism.'

A comment from the independant media group Koreascope:
'As the working class is deemed the party of revolutionaries that constitutes the core of party cadres, North Korea has been increasing the portion of working-class officials in its power echelon, requiring them to lead the van of the entire working class to preserve the nature of the Workers¡¯ '

The WPK has 3 million members, 16% of the 22 milion population. The administration of the means of production is controlled exclusively by the workers, with the WPK as their body of governance through which they atriculate and then disseminate ideas. The country is not ruled by a 'elietist ruling clique' but rather by the workers as the 'owners of the revolution and construction'.

Furthermore, some people seem to suppose that there is a ruling clique divorced from the masses, speciifically that the leader of the revolutionary masses - Kim Jong Il - is divorced from the masses. The theory of the "Revolutionary Outlook on the Leader," says that though the masses are the masters of history and revolution, they must organise themselves in the most effective way to bring about the revolution and socialist construction, this is done by creating a party with a leader and necessary command structure to organise the movement . This is given substance by the theory of the "Immortal Socio-Political Body," which says that the Leader, the Party and the masses form one socio-political body which is immortal, and the center, or brain, of this immortal body is the Leader.

To elucidate:
'the party as a political leadership body is inconceivable; separated from the masses, the party cannot lead the revolution and construction to victory.'

'The Juche idea allows to create an indescribable unity between the people’s masses and the leader, so in this way an independent and sovereign state can be built and the people can use their talent and power for their economic benefit.'

Indeed, Juche was developed with the view that the revolution could not be completed if the leader was divorced from the masses:
'However, the communists and nationalists who were allegedly engaged in the national-liberation movement in our country in the 1920's gave no thought to the need to go among the masses to educate, organize, and arouse them into waging a revolutionary struggle. But divorced from the masses they were only engrossed in the scramble for hegemony and empty talks. They did not unite the masses but divided them by factional stride.
In the first years of his revolutionary struggle, the leader saw through their mistakes and took a road different from theirs, the genuinely revolutionary road which led him to be among the masses and to rely on them in the struggle. He elucidated the truth that the masters of the revolution, are the masses of the people and that when one goes among them to educate and mobilize them one will be able to register in the revolution. This is one of the starting points of the Juche idea.'


'Their is a weak education system too'

As of Juche 34 (1945) there were over 2.3 million illiterates in North Korea. At least 16,170 adult schools were built and operated in the country in 1946 to abolish illiteracy. As a result, more than 90 percent of the illiterates became able to read and write as of March 1948. Today literacy in the DPRK is at 99.9%. Despite 50 years of economic sanctions the Korean people have managed to rapidly industrialise the country and today have harnessed skills from genetic modification to atomic energy.


‘North Korea is nothing more than… state capitalism.’

That’s a ridiculous statement…there is absolutely no evidence of state capitalism in the DPRK. They trade with other countries when given the chance and forms of currency exist in small quantities inside the country however all necessities are provided by the state.

‘North Korea is a fascist state (basically Juche is a stalinist ideology with xenophobic elements) that is turning capitalist...

It is not on the left wing of the political spectrum; the government does not have the mandate of the people since it was imposed on them by Stalin after WW2, therefore the means of production are owned by the elite in government and not the people.’

Xenophobic! I have studied virtually every major work in Juche; and you are telling me that I understood nothing and that basically it is a ‘stalinist ideology with xenophobic elements’. In terms of foreign culture, the Korean policy is to ‘critically adopt progressive elements of foreign culture, which are congenial to our people's sentiments.’
Mandate imposed on them by Stalin after WWII, where is your evidence of this? That is an incredible thing to say! You basically just made that up.

[Saint-Just]

Does anyone have anything to say?

[CommissarFluffy]

It sounds to me as if only 16% of the people actually have a say in the way that they are governed and the management of the economy. At that 16% just happens to benefit most from the current state of affairs.
And while it is all nice and shiny that the official state ideology calls for Kim Jong Il to be in touch with his people, reality seems to be slightly differant. While his people face serious hunger problems, he has recently bought several new luxury automobiles. While the workers of the country face live in poverty, he lives in a rather spacious mansion. This does not sound to me like a leader all that in touch with his people. Nor does it sound to me like a leader who has even remotely internalized the ideals of a socialist society.

[Weatherman]

Thank you for your knowledgable opinon Chairman Mao.

CommisarFluffy, how do you know if their leader has bought a new car or where he lives.

[Dhul Fiqar]

You are obviously very well informed Chairman Mao, but I must admit I tuned out when I read this: "I know a number of criticisms of the DPRK. The usual rhetoric is that its oppressive. Actual concrete evidence is almost non-existent"

Come on... I know people who have been to North Korea and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to notice that everyone is on an extremely short leash. The speakers they install in people's houses and use to send them propaganda first thing in the morning, the kind of garbage that the news networks regularly broadcast (I read it on the internet through their official news outlet) and so on and so forth.

There are a lot of lies and misconceptions aboyut the country, but no one can seriously deny the Stalinist and authoritarian nature of the regime. Dissent is not tolerated in any form, and that is unacceptable imho.

--- G.

(Edited by Dhul Fiqar at 7:57 pm on Jan. 31, 2003)

[Saint-Just]

'Come on... I know people who have been to North Korea and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to notice that everyone is on an extremely short leash. The speakers they install in people's houses and use to send them propaganda first thing in the morning, the kind of garbage that the news networks regularly broadcast (I read it on the internet through their official news outlet) and so on and so forth.

There are a lot of lies and misconceptions aboyut the country, but no one can seriously deny the Stalinist and authoritarian nature of the regime. Dissent is not tolerated in any form, and that is unacceptable imho.'

Everything you have said there is absolutely correct, Dhul Figar.

'While his people face serious hunger problems, he has recently bought several new luxury automobiles.'

This is typical of the lies spread by the U.S.
However, he does indeed have luxury automobiles, what do you expect? I suppose George Bush and every other world leader live in straw shacks and use bicycles to get around.

'It sounds to me as if only 16% of the people actually have a say in the way that they are governed and the management of the economy. At that 16% just happens to benefit most from the current state of affairs.'

Command structures are staged. The basic cadre has the duty of disseminating information and collecting the views of the workers and then taking this into the debate of party meetings to construct and then implement policy. It is not that the WPK party members rule divorced from the working population.

[Gavin]

Yes you are obviously well informed in the Juche ideology but that is all it is, an IDEOLOGY.

The actual situation in North Korea is pretty much nothing to do with the ideology. I don't need to provide evidence, I don't have evidence on me (although i'm sire it could be found somewhere) it's blatently obvious that North Korea is a serious human rights abuser. Policy is dictatated by Kim Jong-Il, it does not come from the people. If it was as good as you say then why would so many people risk their life trying to escape the country? and why would the north korean regime be so worried about these people leaving?

Because they might reveal the true nature of the regime, that's why.

[guerrillaradio]

The way I see it, any nation which feels the need to ban free speech and broadcast compulsory propaganda into people's houses must have pretty serious problems.

[Dhul Fiqar]

Well said, GR. It doesn't exactly show a great deal of public support that they feel they have to do those things...

--- G.

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

The DPRK are imposters. Giving leftism and Socialism a bad name. The sooner Kim Jong-Ilis out, the better. North Korea is by far more dangerous than Iraq. And the evidence is there.

[man in the red suit]

Quote: from Socialsmo o Muerte on 1:02 am on Feb. 2, 2003
The DPRK are imposters. Giving leftism and Socialism a bad name. The sooner Kim Jong-Ilis out, the better. North Korea is by far more dangerous than Iraq. And the evidence is there.

I agree, considering the severe economic problems n. korea faces. n korea is more likely to sell their weapons to terrorists than sadam is likely to launch nukes directly at us. I think that N. Korea is the real threat. And i also agree that any country who starves, imprisons, tortures, kills and uses their own people for biochemical testing, is far from socialist. Most especially if their leader is having pizza parties and has a collection of over 2,000 movies while his people are dirt poor.

(Edited by man in the red suit at 3:59 am on Feb. 2, 2003)

[ComradeJunichi]

Chairman Mao wrote this, but he can't post in this forum - banned/restricted? Again?!

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

‘If it was as good as you say then why would so many people risk their life trying to escape the country?’ - Gavin

Interesting. Why would they risk their life when in the DPRK some are starving to death due to the US sanctions? Those who risk their life to leave are risking it to survive because in the DPRK they do not have any food. The U.S. sanctions and the resultant de-habilitation of power output hinders the DPRK from transporting resources and food. Weakening the infrastructure to the point at which the country has difficulty functioning to meet basic needs.

These Koreans leave the DPRK to find food, many subsequently return. You seem to claim that the regime of the DPRK perturbs the population to the point it leaves the country. You seem to claim that it is a result of the various other lies you claim to be truthful of the DPRK: human rights abuses, oppression, deliberate starvation and so on and so forth.

(©2001 Asia Times

‘those who were lucky enough to have relatives in China crossed the border. …almost no one settled in China for good. Basically, what they did was to get money from their relatives and return.’

So, you claim that the DPRK has a brutal and repressive habit, and as proof, Gavin, you say ‘If it was as good as you say then why would so many people risk their life trying to escape the country?’
Well if we track this issue over the years we find something interesting.

1. Food crisis and the four phases in the emergence of refugees

First Phase: October 1993 - October 1994

According to a testimony by a Korean-Chinese farmer in the border area, it was toward the end of 1995 when he first saw North Korean refugees. This seems to be generally felt as true.

Second Phase: 1994 to October 1995

The food crisis became a famine… and this in turn led to the increased flow of refugees.

Third Phase: 1997 to Present

During this period the number of refugees skyrocketed. This trend shows that in the third phase, socio-economic situation in North Korea was not getting better, and that it was rather deteriorating.

‘A serious drawdown in inventories and critical shortages in the energy sector have led to increasing interruptions in industrial production. Mineral resources and hydropower have formed the basis of industrial development since World War II.’

‘North Korea is no longer self-sufficient in food production’

‘The DPRK can no longer generate sufficient electrical power to meet industrial needs, social services have been severely degraded... There are chronic shortages of many of the basic commodities required for subsistence and industrial production’
-John E. Pike, Global Security expert.

It seems that the number of refugees increased consistently with the severity of food shortages. People were not leaving the DPRK as a result of their protest against the socialist system but rather to find food elsewhere and likely return to the country.

Furthermore, you say ‘so many’. I do not know how many ‘so many’ is in your opinion. But the figures are somewhere at 100,000 to 200,000 as to those that have ever left the DPRK.

What are the causes for this famine? Well as I have explained one such cause is the US sanctions that have been imposed on the region for decades. Another is the droughts and floods caused by abnormal weather conditions that are peculiar to the last decade. Isn’t it odd that this refugee situation is a phenomena of only the last decade? Since 1993 when the U.S. sanctions were stepped up too dramatically damage energy production and that the situation worsened as the freak weather conditions took hold for a number of years, is that not interesting fact? And then, strangely, after these food shortages that are a result of sanctions and the difficulty the DPRK has coping with flood and drought due to the U.S. sanctioning stifling of their infrastructure, people have left the DPRK claiming they must find food elsewhere and then return… maybe they Korean people are lying and really they enjoy starvation and the real reason they left is they hate the socialist system of society and then they actually didn’t return to the DPRK bringing back food but they are hidden somewhere having miraculously disappeared when crossing the border back, appearing to go back but really staying in China. Can you tell me where they are hidden Gavin? Are they in China? Where are they hidden? This is a perplexing mystery, so many people have lied to me and now you tell me the truth, I have to tell the DPRK that ‘so many’ Koreans are hiding in China having left because they hate Kim Jong Il.


‘The way I see it, any nation which feels the need to ban free speech and broadcast compulsory propaganda into people's houses must have pretty serious problems.’ - guerrillaradio

If you are not a Marxist-Leninist guerrilla radio I can understand this view. Propaganda is seen to aid revolution and politicise the masses in Marxism-Leninism, to politicise them after the bourgeoisie has repressed them though ignorance. I could imagine this statement coming from George W. Bush, I am sure you dislike George W. Bush however. In theory then any Marxist system has ‘serious problems’. They thus need to let the reactionary classes run rampant and it would be more effective and moral? This is a highly pertinent thing to say, and I wish there not to be some severe adverse affects on me, so I must say I do not mean to appear to demean you guerrillaradio. I respect your arguments and you, I am only arguing and do not wish to frustrate you. Anyway it seems this reticense of ‘free speech’ for all of society and ‘absence’ of propaganda is socialism while retaining ‘advantages of modern social conditions’ (free speech) instead of removing it from the right to create the conditions for a new society to emerge. The full line is: ‘The socialistic bourgeois want all the advantages of modern social conditions without the struggles and dangers necessarily resulting therefrom’. I don’t know if you are a Marxist, nevertheless this is a quote from the Communist Manifesto. Possibly advocation of universal free speech and socialism is an attempt to secure the position of the exploitative class? Are you one that Marx says:
‘They want to improve the condition of every member of society, even that of the most favored. Hence, they habitually appeal to society at large, without the distinction of class’


‘The sooner Kim Jong-Ilis out, the better. North Korea is by far more dangerous than Iraq. And the evidence is there.’ - Socialsmo o Muerte

So would you like Kim Jong Il out. Would you think force should be used to sestory socialism in Korea? Do you advocate a war against the DPRK? Far more dangerous? Yes it is dangerous to the US and capitalism, so is that what you side with? The US is more of a danger to socialism than the DPRK is to capitalism, surely you agree? Why is the DPRK dangerous? It has never committed any pre-emptive acts of aggression nor has it claimed to ever do such. It is true the DPRK is more powerful than Iraq. That does not make it more dangerous however since the DPRK is committed to peace.

In addition, I think you typed in your username wrong, I imagine you have noticed by now that you meant socialismo rather than socialsmo. But it seems you would choose death RATHER than socialism since you oppose socialism in Korea.


‘Well said, GR. It doesn't exactly show a great deal of public support that they feel they have to do those things... - Dhul Fiqar

Where do you think public support comes from? Keeping the your own class in ignorance? Do you think that propaganda is not necessary to politicise the workers? I know you are a reasonable person Dhul Figar, what I am articulating however is that any socialist must agree that propaganda is desirable to the revolutionary movement.


‘I agree, considering the severe economic problems n. korea faces. n korea is more likely to sell their weapons to terrorists than sadam is likely to launch nukes directly at us. I think that N. Korea is the real threat. And i also agree that any country who starves, imprisons, tortures, kills and uses their own people for biochemical testing, is far from socialist. Most especially if their leader is having pizza parties and has a collection of over 2,000 movies while his people are dirt poor.’ - man in the red suit

They perhaps would not sell them if the sanctions were removed? Saddam does not have ICBM’s with sufficient range to launch anything at the U.S. nor is it suspected that it has any nuclear weapons. Though your statement likely refers to the future. The DPRK, threat? This is a peaceful socialist nation, it has not supposed that it will pre-emotively attack the U.S. You have similar rhetoric to George W. Bush without the grammatical errors that make his speech incomprehensible.

I have already explained the U.S. is starving the Koreans through its use of sanctions against its ‘enemy’. Lets remember in Korea ‘the Korean War destroyed much of both [South and North Korea], especially the North.’ -(©2001 Asia Times

I do not deny that dissidents are re-educated or killed in the DPRK, this is a revolutionary trait of Marxism-Leninism to revome and repress the exploitative class individuals and groups. There is absolutely no evidence that Kim Jong Il has ‘pizza parties’. If one eats food it does not necessarily dictate they are having a party with it. Maybe that’s something peculiar to a number of people. When you eat do you always have a party focused on that particular dish? Sounds somewhat exhausting if you eat 3 or so meals a day. Is it immoral to own or watch movies? I wonder if President Bush shares this view, maybe he is such a puritanical moralist he would not own any form of entertainment. I don’t think it would be precarious to say that all world leaders have possessions such as movies. I wonder if intellectuals should not watch visual media, is that what you are implicating if this is not a moral issue? You seem to subscribe to a rather unusual sect of morality, perhaps some kind of religious movement?
With your patent disgust for socialism perhaps you would be more comfortable with a top-hat and tails as opposed to a ‘red suit’.

I am not saying your views that the DPRK must be destroyed with force or forcibly imploded with peaceful means are ones not shared by many capitalists even if they are based on grand fabrications and phantasm. But, to claim to be a Marxist or even a socialist and so vehemently oppose the DPRK.

[HS The Whap]

Whoever blocked Chairman Mao's access is quite frankly a fucking coward who doesn't deserve to take part in a fair discussion. Apparently people aren't accepting of opnions that differ from theirs here.

[ComradeJunichi]

Quote: from HS The Whap on 11:54 pm on Feb. 2, 2003
Whoever blocked Chairman Mao's access is quite frankly a fucking coward who doesn't deserve to take part in a fair discussion. Apparently people aren't accepting of opnions that differ from theirs here.

HS the Fap, very strongly agreed. Chairman Mao was a very good addition to the community, however Marxist-Leninists are not tolerated here? Funny, CHE - Lives.

[sin miedo]

What the fuck, I like him.

[Dhul Fiqar]

LOL, I can't believe no one else has pointed out the irony here.

Everyone is really pissed off that Mao can't post here for whatever reason, but his entire post that Joon just showed us is more of less dedicated to explaining why free speech is a dangerous and bad thing for socialism...

Mao: Propaganda is one thing, monopoly of information is another.

--- G.

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

LOL! Very well noticed. Maybe he is the real Mao!

[HS The Whap]

Chairman Mao's post:
---------------------------------------------------------------
‘LOL, I can't believe no one else has pointed out the irony here.

Everyone is really pissed off that Mao can't post here for whatever reason, but his entire post that Joon just showed us is more of less dedicated to explaining why free speech is a dangerous and bad thing for socialism...

Mao: Propaganda is one thing, monopoly of information is another.’

The post is certainly not dedicated, but I do point out some Marxist theory on free speech.

Free speech is entirely necessary, but only for one class, the single class. Do you understand the theory of class struggle? While reading Marx and Lenin did you not notice that the workers aim to overthrow and destroy the ruling class? Do you think giving the exploiting class free speech is the way to destroy them?. It seems you combine bourgeois democracy with socialism. We accept free speech, we welcome it, free speech for the toiling masses, the only way we will get it is to silence those who repress us and expropriate our labour. You seek free speech for all classes, but you claim to be a socialist. Obviously, you reject the theory of class struggle and are not a Marxist. I assumed the majority of people on this forum would be since Che was a Marxist-Leninist.

Let us see what Lenin says about ‘freedom of criticism’:
"Freedom" is a grand word, but under the banner of freedom for industry the most predatory wars were waged, under the banner of freedom of labour, the working people were robbed. The modern use of the term "freedom of criticism" contains the same inherent falsehood. Those who are really convinced that they have made progress in science would not demand freedom for the new views to continue side by side with the old, but the substitution of the new views for the old.’
I am a socialist, you claim to be a socialist as do the moderators of this forum. Socialists should not deny their fellow revolutionaries of free speech. In addition, I do not advocate universal free speech in society as you know since I seek to take it from the class who hold it; I believe in the concept of class struggle, however this is an internet forum dedicated to debating, not a nation. I think it is undesirable to exclude Marxist-Leninists in leftist debate. It is acceptable to ban someone for offensive comments such as racist, sexist etc., etc. However, I am not guilty of this, merely of being a Marxist-Leninist. I feel the decision to ban me was prompted on the decision of a very small minority of people since the banning policy seems to be highly inconsistent.

‘LOL, I can't believe no one else has pointed out the irony here.’

I can’t believe you can’t see the real irony here Dhul Figar. Do you not think it is ironic that you and your fellow ‘socialists’ who so ardently advocate free speech ban people for because their views deviate with slight from their own?

[Saint-Just]

My access to all the forums has been reinstated.

'Mao: Propaganda is one thing, monopoly of information is another.'

Yes, I agree. I don't know exactly what you refer to with 'monopoly of information'. However, I advocate that the ability to disseminate information should be exclusively in the hands of the workers. This too is pertinent and coherent with the Marxist theory of class struggle that I subscribe to. This exclusive possesion of the ability to disseminate information in the hands of the proletariat is necessary in the transition from capitalism. Known as the 'dictatorship of the proletariat' its necessity is proved to be a thoery created by Marx:

Between capitalist and communist society lies the period of the revolutionary transformation of the one into the other. There corresponds to this also a political transition period in which the state can be nothing but the revolutionary dictatorship of the proletariat.
[Marx, "Critique of the Gotha Programme", Selected Works of Marx and Engels, FLPH, Moscow, Vol. 2, pp. 32-33.]

This socialism is the declaration of the permanence of the revolution, the class dictatorship of the proletariat as the necessary transit point to the abolition of class distinctions generally, to the abolition of all the relations of production on which they rest, to the abolition of all the social relations that correspond to these relations of production, to the revolutionizing of all the ideas that result from these social relations.
[Marx, "The Class Struggles in France, 1848 to 1850", Selected Works of Marx and Engels, FLPH, Moscow, Vol. 1, p. 223.]


Surely if you were a Marxist you would agree with this?

[ComradeJunichi]

This is a post by Cassius Clay:

Is North Korea socialist or not? In my opinion it is not. I would like to point out though that alot of you are buying into western propaganda way to much. The same people that tell you North Korea is hell on Earth are the same people who said that the USSR had 10 million political prisoners in the 1980's. This has been proved to be complete rubbish.

Before I criticise North Korea it is worth pointing out that as far back as the 1980's the DPRK provided it's citizens with free health care, education, guarrenteed employment, housing and while I'm sure life would of been hard there would of been nobody ever going hungry.

So what wen't wrong? The fall of the Soviet Union and what was left of socialism (I say what was left because the regimes of USSR and Eastern Europe were with the exception of Albania all State-Capitalist. Ironically enough North Korea fought against revisionism.) in Eastern Europe did not help.

But this cannot be the main reason for the fact that North Korea is no longer socialist. Unlike Cuba whom were very much a dependent of the Social-Imperialist Soviet Union the DPRK was NOT so dependent on the Soviet Union and followed it's own path. But as of 2003 there is far more Socialism left in Cuba than in North Korea.

Why so? Well recently Kim Jong II announced that the DPRK would be creating 'Special Economic Zones', much like the one's introduced in China a few decades ago. Since then thousands have lost their jobs and can no longer rely on the state for things that a decade ago would of been normal. What were state pensions will no longer be paid.

Perhaps this was neccassary. If one looks at North Korea over the last few years a comparision with Russia from the early 1920's would not be so radical. The way Kim Jong II announced this policy to the party was done in much the same way Lenin came up with policy of NEP, both know/knew that it would face resistance from the party but both explained that it is/was neccassary. So hopefully this is just a temporary measure and once the DPRK has recovered it will renew the fight for Socialism with as much vigor Stalin did in the 30's. But I remain sceptical.

The problem with North Korea is more complicated than that. The whole ideology of Juche appears more enfixed with Maoism than Marxist-Leninism and Kim II Sung declared that years ago Socialism could be acheived with a 'Korean Face'. In short a very much revisionsit tendancy, declaring the ideas of Marx and Lenin to be outdated or do not matter any longer.


I congratulate Chairman Mao though and the person who restricted him is as one said a 'Fucking coward' and just because you disagree with him doesn't mean he should be banned. He is right about one thing though, as Stalin pointed out the class struggle intensifies under Socialism and enemies must all be uncovered and expelled from the party. The example of Khruschev, Deng and Gorbachev prove that.

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

North Korea is a hellhole. It gives leftism a bad name. Extremists like Jong-Il make 'moderates' in government think even less of leftism. North korea doesnt help the name of Socialism

[ComradeJunichi]

Your post really had nothing in it, if you read it and try to grasp the facts...no wait, where are the facts? It's just full of the same rhetoric. I ask - "why?".

[Saint-Just]

‘Well recently Kim Jong II announced that the DPRK would be creating 'Special Economic Zones',’

‘a temporary measure

‘Perhaps this was neccassary.’

These special economic zones are not identical to those created in China. The laws in these areas do not allow relatively sufficient freedom of trade for foreign investors. The areas have high corporate taxes and workers are seen to be overly protected by the DPRK. The necessity for these SEZ are of course born from the incessant policy of the U.S. to stifle the economy of the DPRK. The U.S. insists that trade will only be acceptable in a free market system or in this case a quasi free market. The DPRK is being devastated by its inability to make dealings internationally as a result of the U.S. policy towards the DPRK. The SEZ will be a necessary policy as long as U.S. sanctions remain and the national economy is being stifled by them. These SEZ are generally situated on the border area with China. Generally I agree with you Cassius on these points. However, one thing I do not agree is that the DPRK is not socialist.

‘In short a very much revisionsit tendancy’

I absolutely disagree that Juche is revision of Marxism-Leninism. It is a development of it. Kim Jong Il has waged a ceaseless struggle against revisionism and dogmatism:

‘…conducted a powerful ideological struggle against flunkeyism, dogmatism, revisionism, factionalism and other unsound ideas as well as factional elements. As a result, it eradicated the factionalism which had greatly harmed our revolution through history and prevented modern revisionism and all other opportunist trends from infiltrating into our ranks.’

‘our party and people have not vacillated in the raging wind of opportunism including modern revisionism and, in the trying situation in which socialism collapsed in several countries, they have been able to defend and add luster to our style of socialism.’

‘We must ceaselessly fight against the infiltration of bourgeois reactionary idea, revisionism and all other hues of ideological trend of opportunism so as to prevent the heterogeneous ideological trends from getting even a little chance of gaining ground and growing in our ranks.’


I will explain some of the main point of Juche and you can judge for yourself Cassius Clay as to whether it is revision or development. First, so you can see what Kim Jong Il says:
‘…[Juche]constitute a brilliant example in adhering to the revolutionary principles of Marxism-Leninism and developing the revolutionary theory of the working class onto a new, higher plane.’
‘the Juche idea expounded the laws which are peculiar to social history.’

Now I will explain some main concepts of Juche. The Juche philosophy elucidates that main is the highest product of the material world, the most complex organism. However, man is different and rises above every other organism because of three factors; Independence (Chajusong), creativity and consciousness. Independence because man in is the master of his world. Creativity because man he can transform the world. Consciousness is presupposed to create independence and creativity.
Man is different in that he is a social being who can form a social collective in which social relations will arise. He gains Chajusong, creativity and consciousness through living in a social collective, developing through social relations. The most important relation being that of class, and throughout history class struggle let the masses gain chajusong, creativity and consciousness. The masses can only achieve their full potential in this state by the annihilation of those who deny these 3 factors that make man progress; those who deny it are the exploitative ruling class.

At the beginning of time chajusong, creativity and consciousness were low, throughout history they developed correspondent to the development of society as they are the driving force behind progression. The realisation of chajusong, creativity and consciousness are the very essence of social progression.

There are a great many works on Juche, this is the basic philosophy. Juche is developed by examining the application of this theory from national construction to international relations.


(Edited by Chairman Mao at 5:25 pm on Feb. 5, 2003)


(Edited by Chairman Mao at 5:28 pm on Feb. 5, 2003)

[Saint-Just]

I'd be interested to what you, Cassius Clay, and Mazdak consider Juche to be, Or any other Marxist-Leninists think.

The greatest quote to define Juche would be:

'The age-long ceaseless struggle of the masses for Chajusong can win its ultimate aim by building socialism and communism. The struggle for socialism and communism is the highest stage of the struggle for Chajusong. It is a struggle to end once and for all the exploitation of man by man, the oppression of class by class, and the domination of state by state in human society, to wipe out all remnants of old societies handed down through history, and to finally free the people from their shackles. In a communist society the masses of the people will lead a completely independent life as masters of nature and society and as true masters of their own destiny. '

(Edited by Chairman Mao at 5:40 pm on Feb. 5, 2003)

[Show me the Money]

Quote: from sin miedo on 11:10 pm on Jan. 29, 2003
I personally don't consider anything without a democracy or republic a socialist state. I understand the necessity for a strong leader in the beginning, but after so many years, democracy should be introduced. Socialism without democracy turns into a stifling dictatorship. i think, when the governmental forces loosen over time it's time for a strong leader with an ideal, who is elected... but that whould not by itself mean that it has to be a republic all the way... otherwise it may become to conservative or bureaucratic.

(Edited by Show me the Money at 9:47 pm on Feb. 5, 2003)

[Just Joe]

i'm suprised anyone can call North Korea Socialist. even if you look at there party mouthpiece www.korea-dpr.com it doesn't really make an effort to show its Socialism. it speaks more of 'Juche' than Marxism and even offers foreign investors a chance to set up shop in North Korea. not mentioning the personality cult that made Hitler and Stalins look like they were anonomous leaders.

[Geddan]

Just Joe, Juche is Korean Marxism-Leninism... and furthermore, the name Juche means more to Korean people than Marxism, Juche is a name they can identify with. To not call a socialist country socialist because it calls itself "Juche-ist" is stupid.

I don't know details about the DPRK, but I trust my friend Chairman Mao.

[Saint-Just]

'even if you look at there party mouthpiece http://www.korea-dpr.com it doesn't really make an effort to show its Socialism.'

That site was created by the Korean Friendship Association. As you so put it, with such clique, the mouthpiece would be the Korean Central News Agency; that is of course the 'mouthpiece' of the mass collective of workers which you seem to so abjectly oppose.

'doesn't really make an effort to show its Socialism.'

Juche is a development of Marxism-Leninism.

'all the power organs are elected by the masses and must answer in front of them.'

'The Juche Idea means, in a few words, that the owner of the revolution and construction are the masses.'

Just a couple of phrases from DPR-Korea.com; if you read the many Juche works, it reiterates and expounds Marxism-Leninism.

'even offers foreign investors a chance to set up shop in North Korea'

Somewhat needed since the extreme downturn in energy production due to U.S. sanctions.

'I don't know details about the DPRK, but I trust my friend Chairman Mao.'

Very sensible :)

[Geddan]

One has no choice when one lacks the knowledge, Chairman Mao. I think you can do a good job teaching us about the DPRK :)

[Just Joe]

That site was created by the Korean Friendship Association. As you so put it, with such clique, the mouthpiece would be the Korean Central News Agency; that is of course the 'mouthpiece' of the mass collective of workers which you seem to so abjectly oppose.

if it is the mass collective of workers, how come only 16% are party members? and how many of those are actual workers or spineless bureacrats looking for the next oppurtunity to kiss Il Duce's arse?

Juche is a development of Marxism-Leninism.

yeah but Leninism is a development of Marxism. it is just the revisionism that you so hate. Juche is very Nationalistic and talks of complete self sufficiency rather than solidarity.

if you read the many Juche works, it reiterates and expounds Marxism-Leninism.

yeah and Deng and Jiang also reiterated Marxism-Leninism in there speeches. theory and practice are different.

Somewhat needed since the extreme downturn in energy production due to U.S. sanctions.

why would concessions need to be made to Capitalism if Koreas' 'Socialism' was working?

[Geddan]

Development isn't revision, it's adaption.

[Saint-Just]

'are party members? and how many of those are actual workers or spineless bureacrats looking for the next oppurtunity to kiss Il Duce's arse?'

Would you be prepared to admit this is an ignorant assumption Just Joe? Would you be prepared to admit you are wrong?, because these are the figures for KWP membership:

-57% Labourers (skilled workers in the fisheries and in the heavy, mining, and defense industries)
-25.3% Farmers (cooperative)
-16.8% Officials
-0.9% Industrial cooperative workers

'how come only 16% are party members'

I explained this in another post, not this thread though. I will explain very quickly; representative democracy. Its impossible to operate direct democracy with the entire population in modern civilisation. 16% is substantially more than most western liberal democracies.


'Juche is very Nationalistic and talks of complete self sufficiency rather than solidarity.'

Yes, I agree so passionately, wait…I seem to have remember actually studied Juche in detail for years…yes, its coming to me, again, Just Joe, would you be willing to admit you are wrong?

'Chajusong is not in conflict with internationalism but is the basis of its strengthening. Just as the world revolution is inconceivable without the revolution in one�fs own country, internationalism divorced from Chajusong cannot exist. As a matter of principle, internationalist solidarity must be based on freedom of choice and equality. Only when it is founded on Chajusong, will internationalist solidarity become based on free choice and equality and become genuine and durable. Our Party is adhering to the policy of strengthening the solidarity of the socialist countries and the international communist movement on the basis of opposing imperialism and giving support to national-liberation movements in colonies and the international working-class movement, continuing advance to socialism and communism, and observing the principles of noninterference in each other�fs internal affairs, mutual respect, equality and mutual benefit. Our country is also adhering to the policy of joining forces with non-aligned countries, the newly-emerging nations, on the principles of respect for territorial integrity and state power, non-aggression, noninterference in each other�fs internal affairs, equality and mutual benefit, and of cooperating with all countries which are friendly towards us.
In the future, too, we will uphold sovereignty and equality in foreign relations and maintain the principle of combining Chajusong with internationalism.'


'why would concessions need to be made to Capitalism if Koreas' 'Socialism' was working?'

The economy is not working in Korea due to the electricity shortage because of the American imposed TWEA (Trade With Enemies Agreement), thats is to say extremely restrictive sanctions. The economy was built up with a strong foundation in socialist Korea. It is still functioning and relatively strong and productive but weak in terms of what could be achieved with the removal of sanctioning.

[Saint-Just]

Sorry to be so condescending Just Joe, but you can't win an argument if you know little of the facts.

[guerrillaradio]

Mao,

"If you are not a Marxist-Leninist guerrilla radio I can understand this view."

I'm not. :)

"Propaganda is seen to aid revolution and politicise the masses in Marxism-Leninism, to politicise them after the bourgeoisie has repressed them though ignorance."

So what you're saying is propaganda is used after a revolution?? The Korean Revolution happened over 50 years ago...

"In theory then any Marxist system has ‘serious problems’. They thus need to let the reactionary classes run rampant and it would be more effective and moral?"

Do you seriously equate free speech letting people "run rampant"?? If so, then I think we represent entirely different schools of thought...

"Anyway it seems this reticense of ‘free speech’ for all of society and ‘absence’ of propaganda is socialism while retaining ‘advantages of modern social conditions’ (free speech) instead of removing it from the right to create the conditions for a new society to emerge."

Explain this. How is not possible for a socialist state to exist without propaganda??

"I don’t know if you are a Marxist..."

I'm not.

"Possibly advocation of universal free speech and socialism is an attempt to secure the position of the exploitative class?"

Again this is a highly contentious and unsubstantiated claim. Please back it up.

[Saint-Just]

So what you're saying is propaganda is used after a revolution?? The Korean Revolution happened over 50 years ago...

No, I stated 'Propaganda is seen to aid revolution' - that is in the state of an ongoing revolution and prior to the victory of the masses and after. Politicisation must take place eternally, for every generation needs nurture otherwise they will fall in to the reactionaries dictation of natural conditions.

'Do you seriously equate free speech letting people "run rampant"?? If so, then I think we represent entirely different schools of thought...'

Correct, specifically I represent Marxism-Leninism and you represent in this; liberal western democracy. Feel free to disagree with that, it is my opinion.

I am saying that universal free speech lets the bourgeois 'run rampant', free speech fot the proletariat lets the workers run rampant.

'Explain this. How is not possible for a socialist state to exist without propaganda?? '

See my first comment, that explains it, no?

"Possibly advocation of universal free speech and socialism is an attempt to secure the position of the exploitative class?"

I can back it up with Marx and Lenin, but since you gave probably read I won't, if you wan't me to I will, but its pretty late here... but I understand disagreement if you are not a Marxist, which you are not, as you said.

[Just Joe]

Would you be prepared to admit this is an ignorant assumption Just Joe? Would you be prepared to admit you are wrong?, because these are the figures for KWP membership:

-57% Labourers (skilled workers in the fisheries and in the heavy, mining, and defense industries)
-25.3% Farmers (cooperative)
-16.8% Officials
-0.9% Industrial cooperative workers

you got a source on that? seems high in the labourer catagory. if thats the case, then fair play to them.

I explained this in another post, not this thread though. I will explain very quickly; representative democracy. Its impossible to operate direct democracy with the entire population in modern civilisation. 16% is substantially more than most western liberal democracies.

yeah i was just being a bit of a devils advocate wanker back there. i know its hard to put in place any kind of direct democracy. i think the North Korean 'democracy' isn't all its cracked up to be though. cracking down in decent is just on of the problems i have with these sort of Stalinist states.

Yes, I agree so passionately, wait…I seem to have remember actually studied Juche in detail for years…yes, its coming to me, again, Just Joe, would you be willing to admit you are wrong?

but because you've studied it, doesn't make it any less Nationalistic does it? would you say the Juche is a revising of original Marxist, Prolaterian Internationalism.

The economy is not working in Korea due to the electricity shortage because of the American imposed TWEA (Trade With Enemies Agreement), thats is to say extremely restrictive sanctions. The economy was built up with a strong foundation in socialist Korea. It is still functioning and relatively strong and productive but weak in terms of what could be achieved with the removal of sanctioning.

the South has a better standard of economic and political living than the North. that ain't saying i agree with Capitalism, but Capitalism is better than Fascism. and it looks to me, that a state that centralises the economy and state; glorifies its leader and resorts to militarism and nationalism to survive, is more like a Fascist state than a Socialist one.

[Just Joe]

Sorry to be so condescending Just Joe, but you can't win an argument if you know little of the facts.

no problem. were both here to learn, right? we can only call what we see. you seem to be clued up on North Korea but were looking at it from different perspectives. you, the Maoist perspective, and me, the Democratic, limp wristed, nearly Marxist perspective.

[Saint-Just]

'cracking down in decent is just on of the problems i have with these sort of Stalinist states'

Suppressing dissent is to consolidate the ideology and revolution of the workers. In any Marxist-Leninist revolution censorship is imposed on the right. This is as the right only seek to defame the cause of the workers, and they will not silence peacefully. Once the mass line is pursued its victory must be ensured with vigor. Those who betray the masses will stumble the masses treading the mass path, how can we let this happen?


'but because you've studied it, doesn't make it any less Nationalistic does it? would you say the Juche is a revising of original Marxist, Prolaterian Internationalism.'

True, but I should know whether it is nationalistic or not. It is both nationalistic and internationalist, nationalistic for its dignity, independance and strength. The bourgeois use nationalism with a belief not in independance and freedom for reliance in large powers but as the belief in the superiority of one's culture. Juche says that bourgeois nationalism has no respect for outside nationalism, it seeks to impose its culture. This is how it is imperialistic. Internationalism is partly down to respect for the dignity of the people of another culture.


'the South has a better standard of economic and political living than the North. that ain't saying i agree with Capitalism, but Capitalism is better than Fascism. and it looks to me, that a state that centralises the economy and state; glorifies its leader and resorts to militarism and nationalism to survive, is more like a Fascist state than a Socialist one.'

The south has a better standard because it is in the south of a peninsula which is inherently richer in the south because of the geographical layout. The North is far more mountaineous and susceptible to freak weather conditions. It is hard to cultivate on mountaineous terrain and hard to construct on. More importantly the south has been free from sanctions for 50 years and has recieved boundless aid from the U.S. to ensure the foriegn power can have a presence in the region. Without sanctions, without one relying on a big power, with similar geographical conditions what would the situation be?


'no problem. were both here to learn, right? we can only call what we see. you seem to be clued up on North Korea but were looking at it from different perspectives. you, the Maoist perspective, and me, the Democratic, limp wristed, nearly Marxist perspective.'

Yes, I agree with that to a large extent.

(Edited by Chairman Mao at 10:00 pm on Feb. 9, 2003)