France : Possible Revolution 2005

[drain.you]

Hey,
Many people are now speculating about a revolution in France.
If these riots start to show a move towards a leftwing revolution I want to be there as soon as possbile. And due to this, I'm start this thread.
Anyone who wants to go to France if the revolution begins, to help out, to riot, to get stuff rolling and generally to show support, place your name in this thread.
I'm being pretty serious here, I live in UK and could be in France within a day. If you are up for it and living in the UK then say so and we could go across together. I know its being extremely hopeful but we have to be prepared for the best :D

People from other countries who would want to go can use this thread to communicate too.

Take care comrade, sorry for being quite optimistic and radical :P

[novemba]

I think you're being optimistic.

It's way too early...if the revolution happens then Civil War will follow shortly after...that's probably when they would need our help in militias and shit.

If it comes to that, I'm down.

[Simon]

If it start's, i hope it spread out into belgium, en than i'm there to support!

[which doctor]

I don't see this thing quieting down anytime soon so I hope it starts to multiply in other cities in Europe. This has become a major nightmare for the French government. These rioters muct not stop now, if they do things will only get worse not better. Dialogue won't work. Unfortunetly I'm a 15 year old living in Illinois, US right now so there really isn't anything I can do other thanb give you guys support. Onward Comrades!

[Forward Union]

Im a member of the Anarchist Federation of the UK.

Which Is part of the International Anarchist Federations, which has a branch in France. If there was Revolution in France I would assist it via this network. And possibly would travel there.

The best solidarity we can show to comrades abroad is to get stuck in and fight at home.


Anarchist Federation (http://www.libcom.org/hosted/af/)

Fédération Anarchiste (http://www.federation-anarchiste.org/)

[enigma2517]

You know I was hoping for another may '68 but is that really what this is?

I don't see it being that much labor/class oriented.

The other day they set a disabled woman on fire...

I wish it were different, but are you sure these aren't just pissed kids running around?

[somebodywhowantedtoleaveandnotcomeback]

The streets in those areas have been unsafe for many years, kids burning down cars, fighting eachother etc. But I think that really indicates a sort of rage against the government. Why do they do all this? Because the government gives them shit, that's why. They're unemployed, un(der)educated, they get no chances at all..
So that might lead to a revolution. Fingers crossed.

[ComradeOm]

There doesn't seem to be any direction to this violence. Its merely riots with no clear cause at the moment. I suspect that if a cause does appear it will be an Islamic one (assuming the bulk of rioters are immigrants as reported) aiming to capitalise on the class unrest.

[drain.you]

Out of curiosity, 'The other day they set a disabled woman on fire' incident is:
a) a lone case if not made up by officials
b) due to being a lone case is not representing the majority of rioters

Even if it was a communist-led riot, you would still get these rogue reports of cruelty and such because:
1) Some 'communists' are dicks
2) People who are dicks would get involved anyway

We don't know what is happening in France exactly. No one does. The French government doesnt. Why? Because its chaos. Our leftist buddies will get it heading in the right direction soon though...I have faith that it will be channelled into a leftist riot if not a leftist revolt.

[Simotix]

If a true revolution comes about and not just angery riots then I will find a way to help out.

hasta la siempre

[karmaradical]

The secret/swat like police of France has already reported amung higher officials the riots are "civil war". Interesting fact to throw around when considering this. I have also seen reports some of the rioting is now being assisted by different organizations and its gone beyond race, and towards class conflict. Immigration however is a strong factor here.

[Ric_god]

It's interesting to see these riots in Paris, so soon after the ones in Birmingham. The Paris riots of course seen to be getting much larger, though for very similar reasons.

It just goes to show, if you take a large, lower-class community, and give them a spark, they will fight back.

It's hard to guess where this will go. Mabey it'll be forgotten within a few days, mabey it could be the start of a war. What would able be interesting to see is how America acts if things do continue to grow. The rebublicans generally like to stick their fist into any sort of conflict, but will they now be seen to help the goverment that refused to support the war.

[cccpcommie]

sorry to sound like an asshole but i work a real llot and i know im missing something here <_<

[rioters bloc]

Originally posted by [email protected] 6 2005, 06:28 PM
sorry to sound like an asshole but i work a real llot and i know im missing something here <_<
here&#39;s some background

http://www.indymedia.org/en/2005/11/827280.shtml

and eye witness accounts

http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2005/11/327207.html

plus there are a few more threads floating around about this mainly in the &#39;politics&#39; forum

[Scars]

You seem to be awfully optomistic. There isn&#39;t going to be a revolution. It is confined to very specific sections of teh population and doesn&#39;t look like it&#39;s spread from one section to another (like in &#39;68 Students-> workers). In addition to this, it does not look like it is at all class based or leftist. It&#39;s primarially race based- just like the race riots in England and Australia. The rioting will continue until the government decides to made a serious effort to put it down, and then it will end.

In order for there to be a revolution there must be a revolutionary base. This does not exist. No base, no revolution. This is race based civil unrest, which in itself is not a bad thing, but in its present form is not revolutionary and not particularly progressive.

[CaptianAnarchy]

sounds to me like you belive what the capitalist newsMEDIA says about it, scars

And We All Know We Can&#39;t Belive A Damn Word They Say

[which doctor]

it does not look like it is at all class based
A bunch of poor people fighting against police oppression isn&#39;t class based?

[Ownthink]

Originally posted by Fist of [email protected] 6 2005, 08:10 PM

it does not look like it is at all class based
A bunch of poor people fighting against police oppression isn&#39;t class based?
A bunch of poor people burning other poor people&#39;s shit is revolutionary?

[which doctor]

Originally posted by Ownthink+Nov 6 2005, 10:34 PM--> (Ownthink @ Nov 6 2005, 10:34 PM)
Fist of [email protected] 6 2005, 08:10 PM

it does not look like it is at all class based
A bunch of poor people fighting against police oppression isn&#39;t class based?
A bunch of poor people burning other poor people&#39;s shit is revolutionary? [/b]
I never said it was revolutionary, I said it was class based. And now they&#39;re also burning post offices, shopping centers and police stations.

[Scars]

Originally posted by Fist of [email protected] 7 2005, 01:10 AM

it does not look like it is at all class based
A bunch of poor people fighting against police oppression isn&#39;t class based?
Generally they&#39;re attack property, as opposed to police. And as far as I&#39;m concerned burning cars, buildings etc is pointless. It achives nothing and makes them just look like a bunch of hooligans with matches, and chances are that&#39;s what many of them are- petty vandals (kinda like at the WTO riots there were loads of people using the riots as an excuse to steal shit with no political agenda)

It&#39;s more poor immigrants vs the French authorities.

And more often than not the bourgeois media is no less crappy than the left wing media. This ain&#39;t a revolution, it&#39;s a race riot which is almost exactly the same as the one that happened in the Block in Australia a couple of years ago. Police were chasing a kid on a bike, unfortunately the kid ended up impaling himself on a fence. Riots followed, molotov cocktails were thrown, cars were burn (ironically enough, within the block itself- destroying your own commuties property strikes me as incredibly retarded, particularly when it&#39;s the poorest part of the whole city). Those riots came to nothing, let alone anything progressive or revolutionary and the same goes for this one.

However, what can be said is there is definate disillusionment with the present system, so it is likely that these people would provide a good basis for the creation of a revolutionary movement within France. They&#39;re actually poor, alienated workers- what Marx said are the ideal basis for the revolution.

[novemba]

read what i posted in the politics forum.

stop talkin about the details here, i think this thread was started as a network of who wants to help in case it becomes a revolution, thus it&#39;s in the PRACTICE forum.

if not, merge &#39;em.

[farleft]

I&#39;m in London, so it would take me about 3 hours to get to Paris by Eurostar.

If it progressed to a left-wing movement, id be happy to help out, I think whats best for now though is to monitor the situation and see what happens.

[ack]

Originally posted by Additives [email protected] 5 2005, 02:09 PM
Im a member of the Anarchist Federation of the UK.

Isn&#39;t that kind of ironic/hypocritical?

[novemba]

haha. i suggest you do some learning up on anarchy cause you don&#39;t know what the hell you&#39;re talking about.

[The Feral Underclass]

Originally posted by ack+Nov 7 2005, 02:19 PM--> (ack @ Nov 7 2005, 02:19 PM)
Additives [email protected] 5 2005, 02:09 PM
Im a member of the Anarchist Federation of the UK.

Isn&#39;t that kind of ironic/hypocritical? [/b]
No it isn&#39;t.

Anarchism does not negate organisation. Read &#39;Organisation&#39; by Errico Malatesta.

[Luís Henrique]

A bunch of poor people fighting against police oppression isn&#39;t class based?

No if it is pointless. What is their political program? Do they want anarchy, communism or an Islamic State? Or more jobs, better wages, or less control over marijuana traffic? Or do they just want to throw stones at the police out of frustration?

Luís Henrique

[The Feral Underclass]

Originally posted by [email protected] 5 2005, 06:45 PM
Many people are now speculating about a revolution in France.
Like who?


If these riots start to show a move towards a leftwing revolution I want to be there as soon as possible. And due to this, I&#39;m start this thread.
Anyone who wants to go to France if the revolution begins, to help out, to riot, to get stuff rolling and generally to show support, place your name in this thread.
I&#39;m being pretty serious here, I live in UK and could be in France within a day. If you are up for it and living in the UK then say so and we could go across together. I know its being extremely hopeful but we have to be prepared for the best :D

France is not in the grips of revolution. It is not near, nor is it any more likely than the Brixton and LA riots in turning into a revolution. What is happening in France is the consequence of class countries dominated by a white, reactionary ruling class.

Riots of these nations are the culmination of oppression, not the prerequisite for a working class revolution and it is the working class as a class who are capable of creating class conflict to a point where a revolution will happen.

Revolution is a process, not an event, and the process is by no means at a point where the working class, or anyone else, could realistically change the fundamental fabric of class society.

If the rioters decide to occupy buildings and begin to re-organise their communities then this may change things, but at present, these riots are being made mostly by angry men who are fighting racial oppression and any connection to class struggle or to any other section of society is very small, if at all. Unless all this changes then the process will go nowhere.

I also think it&#39;s pointless and stupid to advertise things like this. RevLeft is neither the pinnacle nor the centre of revolutionary activity. It is one message board among many and is not the basis or the potential catalyst for revolutionary organisation. Calling for participants in a revolution that is barely even hypothetical on a message board frequented by teenagers is embarrassing to say the least. I&#39;m sorry to say.

I would suggest joining an established political organisation where your enthusiasm and desire for change can be channelled in a serious and concerted way. Alternatively, you can create a small affinity group with political friends that can do activities in your locality.


Take care comrade, sorry for being quite optimistic and radical :P

There&#39;s nothing wrong with being optimistic or radical. In fact we need more of that; but it should be done in a logical and "sensible" way. It should be within a process that makes sense and which is founded in reality.

[novemba]

ok so, TAT, if they stepped back, regrouped, and established community control, started militias and started fighting the paramilitary police would you offer your services?

i know they&#39;re completely different but if i was alive in 1936 i would have gone to spain to fight even tho im not spanish, just like a lot of marxists/anarchists did..if this situation spawns a revolutionary one, i&#39;d wanna do the same

so yeah, i agree with you that this isn&#39;t sensible, but if it does give birth to a revolution(ary situation) then i&#39;m off to help...would you?

[Enragé]

if it does spawn a revolutionary situation:

we could go there and see how things are done, help out, then return to our respective countries and carry on the struggle.

I think it COULD spawn a revolutionary situation, though not openly a marxist one, at least not by name. If they organize, which some are doing (on a small scale), and if they stop torching the wrong buildings (like nurseries, schools).

[Enragé]

Originally posted by [email protected] 5 2005, 05:45 PM
Hey,
Many people are now speculating about a revolution in France.
If these riots start to show a move towards a leftwing revolution I want to be there as soon as possbile. And due to this, I&#39;m start this thread.
Anyone who wants to go to France if the revolution begins, to help out, to riot, to get stuff rolling and generally to show support, place your name in this thread.
I&#39;m being pretty serious here, I live in UK and could be in France within a day. If you are up for it and living in the UK then say so and we could go across together. I know its being extremely hopeful but we have to be prepared for the best :D

People from other countries who would want to go can use this thread to communicate too.

Take care comrade, sorry for being quite optimistic and radical :P
as i already said in a different topic

IF it does happen

im with you.



and so what if we&#39;re optimistic? I heard people saying these riots would be gone before the end of the (last) week, i said they wouldnt...and apparently i was right ;)

[Ownthink]

Originally posted by The Anarchist Tension+Nov 7 2005, 10:40 AM--> (The Anarchist Tension @ Nov 7 2005, 10:40 AM)
[email protected] 5 2005, 06:45 PM
Many people are now speculating about a revolution in France.
Like who?


If these riots start to show a move towards a leftwing revolution I want to be there as soon as possible. And due to this, I&#39;m start this thread.
Anyone who wants to go to France if the revolution begins, to help out, to riot, to get stuff rolling and generally to show support, place your name in this thread.
I&#39;m being pretty serious here, I live in UK and could be in France within a day. If you are up for it and living in the UK then say so and we could go across together. I know its being extremely hopeful but we have to be prepared for the best :D

France is not in the grips of revolution. It is not near, nor is it any more likely than the Brixton and LA riots in turning into a revolution. What is happening in France is the consequence of class countries dominated by a white, reactionary ruling class.

Riots of these nations are the culmination of oppression, not the prerequisite for a working class revolution and it is the working class as a class who are capable of creating class conflict to a point where a revolution will happen.

Revolution is a process, not an event, and the process is by no means at a point where the working class, or anyone else, could realistically change the fundamental fabric of class society.

If the rioters decide to occupy buildings and begin to re-organise their communities then this may change things, but at present, these riots are being made mostly by angry men who are fighting racial oppression and any connection to class struggle or to any other section of society is very small, if at all. Unless all this changes then the process will go nowhere.

I also think it&#39;s pointless and stupid to advertise things like this. RevLeft is neither the pinnacle nor the centre of revolutionary activity. It is one message board among many and is not the basis or the potential catalyst for revolutionary organisation. Calling for participants in a revolution that is barely even hypothetical on a message board frequented by teenagers is embarrassing to say the least. I&#39;m sorry to say.

I would suggest joining an established political organisation where your enthusiasm and desire for change can be channelled in a serious and concerted way. Alternatively, you can create a small affinity group with political friends that can do activities in your locality.


Take care comrade, sorry for being quite optimistic and radical :P

There&#39;s nothing wrong with being optimistic or radical. In fact we need more of that; but it should be done in a logical and "sensible" way. It should be within a process that makes sense and which is founded in reality. [/b]
Though I usually don&#39;t agree with TAT on most things, I fully do on this matter.

[novemba]

ownthink, if you didn&#39;t buy das kapital from your local barnes and nobles when you were 12 you would know nothing about class, opression, or anything else to do with what marx based his ideology on.

marxism would exist even if he never wrote books about it.

class struggle would exist even if no one wrote books about it.

marx didn&#39;t create marxism, capitalism did.

pissed of proles burning shit to get back at the state and all you can say is it&#39;s counter-revolutionary.

your moms counter-revolutionary.

[somebodywhowantedtoleaveandnotcomeback]

Originally posted by The Anarchist Tension+Nov 7 2005, 04:40 PM--> (The Anarchist Tension @ Nov 7 2005, 04:40 PM)
[email protected] 5 2005, 06:45 PM
Many people are now speculating about a revolution in France.
Like who?
[/b]
In the media the word "revolution" has gotten more and more popular after more and more rioters started to use this term. It does however not mean that they actually WANT a revolution, but it&#39;s possible of course. And then we could "turn it into" a marxist revolution.

[bunk]

Have a look at this
i think it might be joke?
http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=138881

[Lord Testicles]

Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2005, 03:28 PM
Have a look at this
i think it might be joke?
http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=138881
i cant see anything from there it says i need to register.

[somebodywhowantedtoleaveandnotcomeback]

Originally posted by Skinz+Nov 9 2005, 04:47 PM--> (Skinz @ Nov 9 2005, 04:47 PM)
[email protected] 9 2005, 03:28 PM
Have a look at this
i think it might be joke?
http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=138881
i cant see anything from there it says i need to register. [/b]
Me neither, just copy-paste it Josh

[RedGeorge]

The thing that worries me is that many far-right groups are using these riots to stir up racial tensions and further their own sick cause... much like the BNP always do in my country (England). I doubt a revolution will occur, but if it does I&#39;ll support it 100%.

[bunk]

I&#39;ve realised it was a spoof now so there&#39;s not much point pasting it

[Gura]

Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2005, 03:11 AM
pissed of proles burning shit to get back at the state and all you can say is it&#39;s counter-revolutionary.
"Burning shit" is not in itself revolutionary. Perhaps were they occupying government buildings, attacking police convoys, and issuing demands (i.e., end to isolation, end to economic oppression, better social/economic programs, better educaiton programs, better housing, an end to police brutality, a way of punishing the police who do engage in brutality, etc) it woudl be at least some sort of revolutionary situation. Granted, the rioters are legitimately angry at some aspects of French society, but there has been no revolutionary committee, no stated goals.

Burning buses and cars is not revolutionary. It is not even as articulate as the Argentinian riots, which showed an opposition to FTAA and to other American policies toward Latin American countries.

[novemba]

did i say it was revolutionary?

i just said it&#39;s definately not counter-revolutionary

[Ownthink]

Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2005, 07:04 PM
did i say it was revolutionary?

i just said it&#39;s definately not counter-revolutionary
Exactly, how is "burning shit" (namely, worker&#39;s cars) "Getting back at the state"?

[novemba]

prove theyre workers cars.

[Scars]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2005, 04:21 AM
prove theyre workers cars.
I find that the bourgeoise often park their cars in working class neighbourhoods then walk across town to their nice houses.

[cccpcommie]

how is this a revolution tho based off the death of 2 kids..

[drain.you]

Meh. Looks like riots are slowly going away. Nevermind, aye?

[Enragé]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2005, 06:15 AM
how is this a revolution tho based off the death of 2 kids..
do i have to explain the difference between a catalyst and a cause???


Meh. Looks like riots are slowly going away. Nevermind, aye?

thanks to the heavy repression

it might just flare up again.

[somebodywhowantedtoleaveandnotcomeback]

The reason the riots are going away is because now the parents keep their teenagers (of which most rioters consist) at home at night because of the curfue. However, Sarkozy isn&#39;t helping much to stop the riots, he just recently said he&#39;s sending back all arrested foreign rioters (no matter whether they&#39;re legal or illegal) back to their home country.

[AK47]

how is this a revolution tho based off the death of 2 kids..

Catalyst:It only takes a spark to get a fire going.
/ &#092;

Great big roaring flame t owarm the heart.

[Donnie]

place your name in this thread.
Yes, a great place to discuss revolutionary activity on a public internet board&#33; Plus you suggest to put down you&#39;re names which makes it even more obvious for the government to catch you.

Also as Additives Free said, you&#39;re better off working within you&#39;re own class struggle organisations and showing solidarity through there, then if things do get serious you go over there and help out the foreign organisation that is affiliated or federated to the international organisation that you’re organisation is apart of.
In this case if you&#39;re an AF member like myself then you would try and get stuck in with the French Anarchist Communist Federation or an Anarcho-Syndicalist Federation.

I still think we need to see how things go with this riot. Obviously I want there to be a revolutionary spark in the riots but I don’t believe it’s happened yet, the best we can do so far is show solidarity with our working class comrades and then if things do get going (which I hope they do), then you get to work and actively help out.

[somebodywhowantedtoleaveandnotcomeback]

"When things do get going", you say. I would tend to agree, but the question is: How do you see "things are going"? At what point do you know we&#39;re talking about a revolution here? Doesn&#39;t that require someone/some people to stand up, go over there and start talking to these youngsters, to explain them they had better continued rioting, get organized and start attacking government/capitalist/bourgeouis targets instead of this random demolition and that what they&#39;d be doing then would be an actual revolution and might actually lead them to a better life? We cannot simply wait for them to say "OK, now it&#39;s a revolution, you can come and help us out."

[Ginger Goodwin]

;)

[I&#39;m the red under your bed]

I heard it was spreading to germany.But i dont think it will happen.