Riots spread outside Paris

[Zingu]

I picked up some more tidbits of information about France and what looks like is possibly revolution in action.


- The riots have spread to 8 regional sectors and the city of Dijon

- Riots have hit metropolitan Paris

- The French military is reportly going to be sent in to "help quell the riots"

- There have been reports of armed rioters shooting at police lines and getting into gunbattles with the police.

- The French "Socialist" Party is being its usaul reformist self.

- The corporate media of course is playing this down to "youths rioting" even though white workers have joined the black rioters on the streets.

- Religous leaders are calling for calm.

Who wants to call this the next May 1968...or even, a revolution? :blink:

[Correa]

France is well known for its "great" revolution, perhaps the time for another one has arrived? Only the people can manifest a geniune revolution and perhaps this is one in the making.

[bcbm]

Perhaps the youth will finish what their parents and great-great grandparents started.

[drain.you]

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/40981000/jpg/_40981834_blaze_afp203body.jpg
French riots spread beyond Paris

The violence that has wracked Paris suburbs over the past week has spread to new areas and outside the capital for the first time.

French youths set alight buildings and cars and buses, in the eighth consecutive night of rioting.

Cars were torched in the central city of Dijon, and sporadic unrest was reported in south and west France.

The violence was triggered by the deaths of two teenagers of African origin.

Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin has pledged to restore order.



http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/40978000/jpg/_40978302_police-ap416.jpg
Riot police were out in force in north-east Paris on Wednesday night during a seventh night of rioting.

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/40978000/jpg/_40978284_youths-ap416.jpg
Once again, youths came on to the streets, setting light to vehicles in the suburb of Le Blanc Mesnil.

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/40978000/jpg/_40978288_charge-ap416.jpg
In nearby Aulnay-sous-Bois police tried to bring the situation under control.

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/40978000/jpg/_40978294_showroom-ap300.jpg
Residents of the poor, largely ethnic suburb watched from their windows as a car showroom went up in flames.

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/40978000/jpg/_40978286_car-ap416.jpg
As assets burned, France's politicians were struggling to find a formula to end the violence.

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/40978000/jpg/_40978290_firefighters-ap416.jpg
French Interior Minister Nicolas Sarkozy blamed "thugs", but others condemned the deprivation in France's "banlieue" suburbs.


|Pictures and Information taken from BBC New Website|

[Clutch]

Those are some high quality pics and some high quality riots! Just out of curiosity, what was the end result of the May '68 riots?

[Severian]

Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2005, 02:30 AM
French Interior Minister Nicolas Sarkozy blamed "thugs", but others condemned the deprivation in France's "banlieue" suburbs.
Y'know, they always say that. About poverty.

While from the actual events, this rebellion - I think that's a good word for it - was sparked by the constant police harassment of North African/Middle Eastern people in France; two young people were electrocuted in a power substation while trying to avoid the cops. Police attempts to suppress the "riots" have fueled more anger.

[Commie Rat]

A big heads up to our french comrades

hopefully they can get a name on this and form a united front, prove that it isn't just 'youths' violently rioting

[tatu]

Does anyone know if any of the French communist parties have been supporting the rioters?

[Zingu]

Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2005, 12:47 PM
Does anyone know if any of the French communist parties have been supporting the rioters?
The French Communist Party is a revisionist piece of shit who sold out the workers in May 1968.


On and other note:

Paris, 4 Nov. (AKI) - The rioting that has wracked impoverished Paris suburbs over the past week has now spread to other cities in France, notably the central city of Dijon, Rouen in the north, and the region surrounding the southern port of Marseille. Rioters set fire to at least 150 vehicles, two textile warehouses, shops a bus depot and a school in an eighth night of unrest. The urban violence was triggered by the accidental death two teenagers of African origin in a electricity sub-station on 27 October, as they were reportedly fleeing from police.


France's prime minister vowed yesterday to restore order to Paris's riot-hit suburbs as violence took a dangerous new turn, with rioters shooting at police and firefighters and attacking trains and symbols of the French state.






Vive le revolution! :D Vive le France!

[bolshevik butcher]

Heh, well they really do need to get organize dif they want to ahieve anyhting more than a lot of damage. I mean it might be alright just now, but eventually if they're going to mount a challenge to teh french state they'll need organizaiton.

[Enragé]

hmm

all thats on the news was

"though the riots themselves were less violent, they did spread to other cities"

THAT WAS IT! then they changed the subject :S

I dont live all that far from france (netherlands) but way too far to have any serious clue to whats going on. But when the news acts like that...there's gotta be something more going on than a simple riot.

[drain.you]

Yeah, I must say, this has been going on for over a week now and the British media seems to be hiding what is going on. I didn't even find out about it till about 3days ago or something.

[h&s]

I haven't mannaged to really read about this violence, but it seems to me like these are 'just' riots, the result of a build up of tensions and the bad conditions that these people have to live in.
At the moment this does not look like it is a repeat of '68, yet. '68 was far more than just rioting - it was a general strike, it involved workers occupying their workplaces (sometimes flying red flags above the factorys, and sometimes locking their bosses in thier offices playing the Internationale at them all day over the tannoy :D ) - it was a situation that could very easily have turned into a full-blown revolution, had it not been for the lack of direction from the 'revisionist pieces of shit.
There is not yet any industrial reaction to this that I have heard of, but the '68 struggle was sparked off by student's protests and rioting, so it could yet develop - if the class consciousness is ready for it. (IMO)


Yeah, I must say, this has been going on for over a week now and the British media seems to be hiding what is going on. I didn't even find out about it till about 3days ago or something.
The BBC have been mentioning it (I haven't heard much though) in their usual shit classless way.

Incidently my new avatar is from the '68 struggles, and took me fucking ages to find on the net.

[novemba]

News from Paris Indymedia (http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=fr&u=http://paris.indymedia.org/&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dhttp://paris.indymedia.org/%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26safe%3Doff%26sa%3DG)

Click that. I dunno if it's of signifigance but it was just posted on the Paris Indymedia Website. It's calling for everyone to fight the state and not to wait for unions or political organizations...

[Enragé]

yes so it would appear at first glance...just riots...but...the media are far too quiet for it to be..just riots. Its like they're hiding shit. And...if it would be just riots...why has it been goin on for 8 days already, 1300 cops deployed today and apparently the military might even be put into action..

[Marat]

I applaud the rioters brilliant genius.
Hope the riot spreads to Amerika.

Oh, what a deadly web we weaved when we practice to deceive!!!!!!!

[drain.you]

I cant read french :(

[Enragé]

Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2005, 04:48 PM
News from Paris Indymedia (http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=fr&u=http://paris.indymedia.org/&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dhttp://paris.indymedia.org/%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26safe%3Doff%26sa%3DG)

Click that. I dunno if it's of signifigance but it was just posted on the Paris Indymedia Website. It's calling for everyone to fight the state and not to wait for unions or political organizations...
fucking brilliant

[Donnie]

Does anyone know if any of the French communist parties have been supporting the rioters?
Thats the last thing they bloody need. If they take control of the riot they'll use it to the parties benefit and not the poor communities.

[novemba]

that's what i said in the other thread.

i think they do need a general strike though, and maybe support from the unions.

[Enragé]

the unions, together with the communist party, put an end to the may 68 uprising.

[novemba]

so you disagree with a general strike?

if so why not?

[Enragé]

I agree with a general strike, but i dont think the unions should lead them.

"Worker, you may be just 20 years old, but your union dates from the last century"
-68 graffiti

[Colombia]

Before I say anything, let me just get this clear.

The riots started over the deaths of two young men?

[Enragé]

yep

apparently they (two youths of african origine) were being chased by the cops, and they got themselves electrocuted.

Government denies this ofcourse.

But yeh this is what sparked the riots, the real cause lies deeper though

[Marat]

If you can't read French use fucking Babelfish. Connect, you dumb assholes. The revolution will pass us by.

http://babelfish.altavista.com/

[drain.you]

fuck you, marat. don't think you ought to be calling people 'dumb assholes'



Tough French warning for rioters
Firefighters battle a fire in Aulnay-sous-Bois, near Paris on 4 November 2005
The deaths of two teenagers of African origin triggered the unrest
France's interior minister has warned rioters of stiff jail sentences for arson after a ninth night of violence in African and Arab communities.....
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4409854.stm

[Marat]

Originally posted by [email protected] 5 2005, 05:32 PM
fuck you, marat. don't think you ought to be calling people 'dumb assholes'



Tough French warning for rioters
Firefighters battle a fire in Aulnay-sous-Bois, near Paris on 4 November 2005
The deaths of two teenagers of African origin triggered the unrest
France's interior minister has warned rioters of stiff jail sentences for arson after a ninth night of violence in African and Arab communities.....
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4409854.stm
LOL!!!! I wote asshole with all comeradely affection. Sorry if my message can't convey you my saracsm as well. Full throttle to the revolution!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Great post by the way!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[drain.you]

lol sorry comrade Marat, I misunderstood and got angry :P

[TC]

anyone have eurostar tickets? :rolleyes:

[Correa]

Now, now! Lets fight the capitalist blood suckers! Not each other! :D

[*PRC*Kensei]

mmmmmmmmmm their is just one small problem... who sais the little revolution we got here is a red one ? it's not right, thats clear, but... no real ideology involved... no leader... or leading group...

Anyway, it's a step in the derection of a "revolutionary situation" in which left can take part & overtrow capitalism.

[Correa]

Good point, there is no leader or leading group. Which means its just a peoples movement in general free of a "leader" or "group" that might betray the movement like it happened in the late 60s.

[*PRC*Kensei]

there hasnt been any revolution without a leader... dont care if they kick him off afther the revolution.

[*PRC*Kensei]

yo admins make this stuff sticky please, this is some big news...pin it up.

[Correa]

Again great point, but can't the people be the "leader" collectively? BTW I would prefer for their to be a figure who would organize the masses. I'm just trying to see the sunny side of the issue.

[Marat]

I don't like leaders. I once wrote to Chomsky and he answered in this following exchange:

(I wrote to Dr. Chomsky [[email protected]]):

I admire your life's work and political activism
and would like to ask you one question. The question
basically is how should we prepare for the revolution.
I mean do we do it following Lenin's prescriptions in
What Is To Be Done? ---basically letting an elite group
of professional revolutionaries incite revolt or is it
possible for the majority of the working class to
become politically aroused/class-conscious? I ask you
this because I find myself becoming pessimistic by the
political apathy conveyed by many common people I
meet. I know you are against elitism in all its forms but
how can we make the revolution if many people are
disinterested. Isn't it possible for an elite group to
initate revolt and then generously hand power to the people?

Chomsky wrote back:

I share Rosa Luxemburg's feelings about Lenin-style "revolution."
There's no reason to expect the professional revolutionaries to be anything
other than what Bakunin had predicted long before: a "Red bureaucracy" that
will institute a harsh and brutal regime on the pretext of serving the
interests of the working class. To be meaningful, as Luxemburg and many others
have recognized, a revolution has to involve a "spiritual transformation" in
which the mass of the population come to understand that they must, and
can, take their fate into their own hands, the last thing the
professional revolutionaries want. I don't know of any reason from history, from
logic, from anywhere else to think that an elite that has won power will hand
it over to the population.

If someone feels discouraged about political apathy, the right answer
is to become engaged in the hard, dedicated, day-to-day work of education and
organizing, to help people overcome their apathy -- and to learn from
them, as we all can do.

Noam Chomsky

[enigma2517]

That is amazing...I definetely have to email Chomsky now.

[which doctor]

I once wrote Bush a letter about the embargos in cube for an eighth grade assignment and all Igot back was this generic letter telling me that I could learn more about the US at my local library. He also gave me a picture of him and laura. Let's just say that both of those are in the trash now.

[*PRC*Kensei]

Originally posted by Fist of [email protected] 5 2005, 09:54 PM
I once wrote Bush a letter about the embargos in cube for an eighth grade assignment and all Igot back was this generic letter telling me that I could learn more about the US at my local library. He also gave me a picture of him and laura. Let's just say that both of those are in the trash now.
"that I could learn more about the US at my local library"

LOL,
hahahahaha,
hihi,
hohoho,
rolf !

:P :D :P

[drain.you]

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/40988000/jpg/_40988522_car_afp203body.jpg
Saturday night's count of car burnings is the highest yet

[bunk]

Last night updates
A McDonald's was rammed by a car and almost completely burnt out in Corbeil-Essonnes, south of Paris

Five classrooms of a nursery in Grigny, south of Paris, were destroyed by fire while a primary school was also slightly damaged

A recycling facility was attacked in the Essone area near Paris, with 800 sq m of paper going up in flames and at least 35 vehicles torched

In Drancy, north-east of Paris, two teenagers were caught and handed over to police after they tried to set fire to a lorry.

Also over 1000 cars were burnt

[*PRC*Kensei]

Setting mc.donalds on fire: GREAT
burning schools: bad, please not schools & hospitals.

you know what ?

LET EM BURN DOWN DISNEYLAND :D

[drain.you]

lmao! They should so destroy Disneyland Paris! That would be pretty funny! Mind you it is like an hour from Paris or something if I remember correctly.

And I agree burning schools and hospitals is horrible and what fuels the doubt in my head that this won't turn revolution - these people aren't doing anything but rioting and burning down needed institutions.

[*PRC*Kensei]

well, they mainly burn cars... they want to be heard...

offcourse THIS wont turn into a revolution, but like i said: this will turn into a revolutionary situation. In this situations, WE - the leftists - have a bigger chance to overtrow capitalism.

and i STILL support burning down disney land, if they have to walk for 4 hours, just let em organise a crusade or something :P

[Led Zeppelin]

Let me tell you, Marat. We live in perilous times. You got to keep alert for these things. You don't want your life to wind up as black-and-white newsreel footage scored by a cello in a minor key.

[Enragé]

hmm

does anyone know about any groups making any demands? Or at least something organized (im not saying hierarchic)?

thats what we need. Organization.

I heard that the french cops discovered "a molotov-cocktail factory"...so...there has to be some sort of organisation going beyond that of simple gangs..i think.

[Wanted Man]

Great, they're burning schools. I'm sure the average worker just loves it when his child can no longer receive education. Oh, and I'm sure people also think it's great that their cars are put on fire just for, well, being cars. Yeah, they should keep burning schools and cars, that'll get a worker's revolution on its way. :rolleyes: Oh, and I'm sure the workers of the world were very much convinced that this was the real thing when the rioters set fire to a disabled woman just for sitting there.

Don't get me wrong, I'd cheer on a revolution, but so far, this just seems to be street violence AGAINST the working class, AGAINST the disadvantaged. Anarchism in practice, as I like to call it.

[drain.you]

sorry comrade matthijs but did you hear the news of these things on capitalist media that dont want us to think that class warfare is occuring or from elsewhere? :P

[CrazyModerate]

I also think its great that they are attacking citzens and schools in their own community. :rolleyes:

[The Grey Blur]

Originally posted by [email protected] 6 2005, 06:25 PM
I also think its great that they are attacking citzens and schools in their own community. :rolleyes:

Great, they're burning schools. I'm sure the average worker just loves it when his child can no longer receive education. Oh, and I'm sure people also think it's great that their cars are put on fire just for, well, being cars


burning schools: bad, please not schools & hospitals

They aren't attacking people in their own community, they're burning buildings; there's a differnce. Also, do yuo know why they are burning stuff? It's to draw the police (who go in with the firebrigades) into the suburbs, where they are then attacked.

[Enragé]

currently, what they are doing in the banlieues (suburbs) is lashing out at anything remotely related to the system. This includes government buildings, mcdonalds...and yes...sadly schools.

And mathijs, go and play with your stalinist friends ok, while the (mentally) grown ups think about how this situation might play out and what can be done to influence it for the better

[bolshevik butcher]

I don't know if fire fighters are a good target, they're not a symbol of state opression.

[bunk]

I'm down with burning cars

[Entrails Konfetti]

Communist and socialist parties aren't doing anything.

I wonder what action Anarchists are taking, and if they have a general idea of action.

[Enragé]

Originally posted by Clenched [email protected] 6 2005, 07:37 PM
I don't know if fire fighters are a good target, they're not a symbol of state opression.
no they're not, and neither are schools

however they are linked to the state, so they are targeted. So far, it has been relatively mindless destruction, which is where the problem lies.


Communist and socialist parties aren't doing anything.

I wonder what action Anarchists are taking, and if they have a general idea of action.

on the french indymedia there was an article posted calling people to join the riot. Im not all that good in french, but there were some other articles about the riots as well, with the main topic being that they (the people of france as a whole) should not get divided by government propaganda.

[Wanted Man]

Originally posted by [email protected] 6 2005, 06:04 PM
sorry comrade matthijs but did you hear the news of these things on capitalist media that dont want us to think that class warfare is occuring or from elsewhere? :P
I don't think anybody here is denying the things I just mentioned. Unless of course this forum is the capitalist media... ;)


And mathijs, go and play with your stalinist friends ok, while the (mentally) grown ups think about how this situation might play out and what can be done to influence it for the better
Funny, you just acknowledged what I said. So then, my dear "leninist anarchist"(wow, how the fuck does that go together?) why don't you give me some hints on how to "change this situation for the better"?

Anyway, I have no doubt that impoverished youths lashing out against the very system that has made life impossible for them, is a part of class struggle. However, the way it's going at the moment, it's just going to be more vandalism and arson. Clearly our mentally grownup leninist anarchist suffers from reading problems, or maybe he likes to pretend I didn't say certain things to make a better point against me, the mentally immature one. Let me quote myself:


Don't get me wrong, I'd cheer on a revolution, but so far, this just seems to be street violence AGAINST the working class, AGAINST the disadvantaged. Anarchism in practice, as I like to call it.
So, I present Mr leninist anarchist with three options:

1: Take an eye test so you don't miss, umm, entire paragraphs in people's posts.
2: Stop being a little *****.
3: Fuck off and go play with your "leninist anarchist" friends(assuming any other people with one of the most directly opposed ideologies exist, which would be sad...).

[Enragé]

"Great, they're burning schools. I'm sure the average worker just loves it when his child can no longer receive education. Oh, and I'm sure people also think it's great that their cars are put on fire just for, well, being cars. Yeah, they should keep burning schools and cars, that'll get a worker's revolution on its way. Oh, and I'm sure the workers of the world were very much convinced that this was the real thing when the rioters set fire to a disabled woman just for sitting there."

that reactionary bullshit is what i was responding too ok. It doesnt contribute to anything in this discussion, so you might as well have kept your mouth shut.

as for the leninist anarchist thing, my views really vary between the two...leninist as in trotskyist that is.

now shut up about it befor this thread degenerates into you and me *****ing

[Entrails Konfetti]

on the french indymedia there was an article posted calling people to join the riot. Im not all that good in french, but there were some other articles about the riots as well, with the main topic being that they (the people of france as a whole) should not get divided by government propaganda.

The translation to the site is incomprehensible, I'm having a hard time finding the main-points. I did read what you stated. But how far must this riot go till it reaches an idea of action? Even if there were strong revolutionary-leftist parties, would it do them any good to organize strikes and arm workers? It just seems like chaos as of now, which will result in reforms. Maybe after reforms people will be more consious and have an idea of action?

[Guerrilla22]

Or so the corporate media is reporting.

[Ownthink]

Originally posted by [email protected] 6 2005, 12:42 PM
Great, they're burning schools. I'm sure the average worker just loves it when his child can no longer receive education. Oh, and I'm sure people also think it's great that their cars are put on fire just for, well, being cars. Yeah, they should keep burning schools and cars, that'll get a worker's revolution on its way. :rolleyes: Oh, and I'm sure the workers of the world were very much convinced that this was the real thing when the rioters set fire to a disabled woman just for sitting there.

Don't get me wrong, I'd cheer on a revolution, but so far, this just seems to be street violence AGAINST the working class, AGAINST the disadvantaged. Anarchism in practice, as I like to call it.
I could not agree with you more. I'm sick of people touting this as revolutionary, it's just a bunch of pissed off kids (And rightly so! But this is not the way to go about it!) burning everything they can. When multiple news outlets report the nursery and old lady incidents, you just turn a blind eye to their suffering and claim "Oh, that's just capitalist media!". Or not, maybe it's just reporters reporting? I doubt these media outlets are out to ruin and belittle a "class war".


They aren't attacking people in their own community, they're burning buildings; there's a differnce. Also, do yuo know why they are burning stuff? It's to draw the police (who go in with the firebrigades) into the suburbs, where they are then attacked.
Oh bullfuckingshit! These kids aren't like "Yes, let's burn these buildings, so it will draw the cops in and then we can fight them!". They are not tactitioning, They are just angry youths burning shit, and that shit is people cars and buildings.

Maybe in your head that is a viable tactic, but they are not burning all this stuff for that purpose at all.

I'm hearing alot of a tactic around here that capitalists commonly use: "Oh, there all terrorists out to get us!" and "Oh, it's just the bourgeois media lying to us!" is one in the same.

Not cool. I hope these end and the thousands of people who've lost their cars can get their life back on track so they can actually go to work and try to earn their shitty wages to provide for their family as much as they can.

Really, Matthijs is the only one I've seen with a rational opinion on this matter. He hit it right on. Yep, I'm sure the working class is just thrilled he can't get to work now, and his kids don't have a school. Really bringing about lots of great change, yep. Torching the cars of workers really pisses off the ruling elite into changing measures in our shitty neighborhoods, right? WRONG!

I tell you, if something, even rioting that is disastrous to the working class is touted as something Communistic or "class war", then people will jump all over it. Please, think before spouting this "class war" rhetoric.


*Waits for the programmed reponse of "That's just the cappie media lying to discredit the..... rioters!*

Bravo Matthijs, for thinking about what's actually happening in reality in contrast to what's happening in the mind of the disenfranchised worker who believes a bunch of other disenfranchised workers burning or attacking anything is "class war" and revolutionary.

[Entrails Konfetti]

Yeah, its pretty much the same ethos that the poor of New Orleans had after Katrina.

Could lead to a revolutionary situation, though it isn't one.

[Correa]

Do we not have any French comrades that can report on this board? I want to get to the bottom of this, although I must say I am pesemistic about any kind of leftist movement going on.

[novemba]

Originally posted by "ownthink"+--> ("ownthink")I could not agree with you more. I'm sick of people touting this as revolutionary[/b]

"ownthink"
In the words of a wise person...FUCK SHIT UP

right.

look this is a grass root proletarian uprising, but it's not revolutionary. Just cause they don't preach ideologies doesn't mean it's reactionary or whatever the fuck you're trying to call it. has anyone on the boards talking shit about how they shouldn't been burning cars ever been to france? or europe? who owns cars? bourgeosie. all i'm seeing is newer model cars being burned. i don't see them lighting peoples shoes and bikes on fire, so shut the fuck up about it. hahaha also regarding the schools, i'd burn mine down too, and i think a lot of you would do the same.

another thing i'd like to say is for you guys to use your heads. stop the bickering about whether or not it's gonna lead to a revolutionary situation and just take it at face value

1)they are poor and discriminated people fighting the state in the only way they know how
2)if it's not a revolutionary situation right now it could very possibly lead to one
3)if the riots just settle down, it's not just gonna be forgotten, it's gonna radicalize a lot of people against the government, this maybe the waking-up that they need


Anarchism in practice, as I like to call it.

and North Korea is a prime example of Communism. Boy do I love how they spend more money on military then they do on feeding their own people! Viva La Revolution! Che Vive! Hasta Siempre!

suck my nuts.

EDIT: a couple more things...

anyone ever heard the term "the revolution will not be televised"? yeah, they could be in the middle of a fucking revolution right now, and none of us would know it. does anyone on the boards know anyone that stays in france or is there anyone on the board that can tell us what's going on? probably not, cause i bet theyre out rioting :lol: (shit i would be too)

[Correa]

I hope you are correct. Very good point with "the revolution won't be televised." I was just listening to a sample of that quote in Tony Touch #78 (http://www.tonytouch.com).

[Waffler]

Just out of curiousity, if the riots became more organized toward a revolution, how many of you would fly over to help?


(By the way... first post :hammer:

[Correa]

Well I couldn't go because of the chains of capitalism. In other words I'm broke and need to think about feeding my wife and kids. Not to mention the paying the rent. Driving distance is another story.

[Black Dagger]

Don't get me wrong, I'd cheer on a revolution, but so far, this just seems to be street violence AGAINST the working class, AGAINST the disadvantaged. Anarchism in practice, as I like to call it.

Please clarify how a stateless classless society is the same thing as a "street violence AGAINST the working class, [and] AGAINST the disadvantaged".

Thanks.

[Ownthink]

How exactly is a bunch of young kids torching anything and everything they can "fighting the state"? Yes, they are rightfully pissed off, but burning the cars and buildings of the working class in that area is NOT a way to "strike back" at the State for the tragedies that befell those two young men.

Quit being so idealogical and oversimplifying the situation.


EDIT: Some good came of this: Two cops were seriously injured tonight when assailaints fired buckshot at them.

But really, torching schools, nurseries, and as reported by a few media outlets, a fucking disabled woman?

It's fucking mob rule. And that mob is pissed off, rightfully, but just venting anger by burning and destroying everything they can is not the solution to class problems, and I would expect most here to know that.


Shitty situation :(.

[lovebombanarchy]

Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2005, 07:05 AM
- The corporate media of course is playing this down to "youths rioting" even though white workers have joined the black rioters on the streets.

Is this true, do you have a source?

if this cathartic rebellion is going to become a revolution... it needs to spread beyond the immigrant community.

[novemba]

Disclaimer: Ownthink I like you and I think you've been interpreting these a little too personally, and I've been a dick a bit so please don't let it get too personal....but...

what the fuck are you talkin about? seriously? lemme break it down.


they are rightfully pissed off, but burning the cars and buildings of the working class in that area is NOT a way to "strike back" at the State

some issues to be raised:

What are they pissed off about?


the tragedies that befell those two young men

Not quite. That might have sparked it, but I guarentee you every rioter is not throwing molotovs going, "GODDAMNIT WHY THOSE TWO KIDS!!" No. This rioting was sparked by the death but it has now become an embodiement of unjusts and predjudices commited against these people.

Who's cars are they burning?

Are you in Paris? Have you spoke to someone from Paris? Are you watching CNN? If you live in france, and you have a car, you're petite bourgeosie AT LEAST. The public transportation in europe is AMAZING and if you can afford gas, then you got some cash.


torching...a fucking disabled woman?

There might be a few isolated cases of idiots running around doing this shit for fun, but don't stereotype all the people there because of their actions. That's called misrepresentation based on FANATICS. Cause we all know all muslims wanna destroy the united states in the name of allah, all israelis are against peace, and Timothy McVeigh should be a saint. Get my point?

Is it a way to strike back at the state?

Yup. Look how much money this is costing France. Billions I'm sure, and it's not costing the people as much as the state, they got insurance, and in cases like this the insurance is insured BY THE STATE.


But really, torching schools, nurseries, and as reported by a few media outlets

Shhh. Just shhhh. You'd burn your school too.

bizzy.

[praxis1966]

Is it just me, or does this remind anyone else of the '92 riots in the U$? I mean, the situations are almost identical. Most of you are probably too young to remember, but after Stacy Koonan et al were aquitted on charges of using excessive brutality to subdue Rodney King, rioting broke out in every major city. By every major city, I mean everything from Seattle to Miami, LA to Portland ME and all points in between.

In any event, none of it lead to anything, aside from massive property damage which was limited almost exclusively to the ghettos of these cities. As far as I can tell, that's probably how this will end as well.

As a sidenote, I'd like to address the Katrina point someone else made earlier. Look for a full scale uprising in New Orleans sometime in the next week. My cousin is a nurse from Boston who was an aid worker there until this weekend. Apparently, because the state and local governments in the affected area aren't footing their part of the relief bill, the feds are pulling out all of their personnel. Keep in mind that the place is still highly devastated. If it's any indication, the traffic lights still don't work. For whatever reason, none of this has made national news yet, but when the rioting and looting breaks out again (and I assure you it will) you'll definately hear of it.

[drain.you]

French police shot by rioting mob

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/40990000/jpg/_40990698_police_afp203body.jpg
Police say they were ambushed by a mob
About 30 policemen have been injured by shots and stones in a Paris suburb - on an 11th night of unrest across France.

They were attacked by some 200 rioters in Grigny, south of Paris. Two policemen were seriously injured.

The incident came hours after President Jacques Chirac said that restoring order was an "absolute priority".

Hundreds of cars were set on fire in different towns on Sunday night, and police had to use tear gas to disperse a club-wielding mob in Toulouse.

Map of main flashpoints

Police reported at least 839 vehicles burnt and 186 arrests on Sunday night.

Unrest has gripped areas with large African and Arab communities since the deaths of two youths in the rundown Paris suburb of Clichy-sous-Bois, who were accidentally electrocuted at an electricity sub-station after reportedly fleeing police.

Targeting police

The two police officers were injured by gunfire in what police described as an "ambush" in Grigny late on Sunday.


There are similar scenes across French cities

They were reportedly taken to hospital with wounds to the leg and throat.

Police chiefs said their men were being deliberately confronted by gangs apparently intent on fighting them.

"They really shot at officers. this is real serious violence - not like the previous nights. I'm very worried because this is mounting," senior police officer in the area, Bernard Franio, said.

In the southern city of Toulouse, police fired tear gas grenades to push back rioters.

Violent attacks were also reported in Orleans, Rennes and Nantes.

'Determined'

"The law must have the last word," Mr Chirac told reporters in his first public address on the violence on Sunday.

French President Jacques Chirac
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/40990000/jpg/_40990198_chirac_ap203b.jpg
Mr Chirac's comments were his first public address on the unrest

"The Republic is quite determined... to be stronger than those who want to sow violence or fear."

Mr Chirac promised arrest, trials and punishment for perpetrators.

But he also noted that "respect for all, justice and equal opportunity," were needed to end the unrest.

Mr Chirac has faced criticism from opposition politicians for not speaking publicly about the unrest since it began on 27 October. His only previous comments came through a spokesman.

Sunday's remarks came after talks with key ministers including Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin and Interior Minister Nicolas Sarkozy, at the presidential palace in Paris.

[tatu]

As already mentioned, this riot is in no way a revolutionary riot, as some people have insinuated or explicitly mentioned. The rioters, as most people tend to have labelled them, are gangs of pissed off kids who need to express their anger against the state's failure to provide. Unless some kind of support is shown from the left then this riot will end up being in vain.

[Commie Rat]

If the French Socialist Party got behind this and other recognized orginations got behind this then maybe, just maybe could it form into something mildy revolutionary

Riots in the streets isn't a revolution, its just fucking riots

The revolution will NOT be a bunch of angry kids walking down the street burning shit

I would love to be there, get the rioters to become some for of organized revolution

[Hiero]

Relax peolple.

We all know how this is going to end. In a week or two things will die down. Then the government is going to create a special team who are going to investigate tapes, then a shit load of arrests are going to be made.

This is not a revolution. A class analysis shows this is just an average lumpen proleteriat riot, they can never form into anything major or create a political front.

[tatu]

Obviously, these riots were doomed to fail from the start. Without any revolutionary moods instilled in the youth there was nothing there to mobilise them for non-violent, constructive protest. The youths have got themselves on the world map due to violent protest, but the French police will soon crush all this and then all will be forgotten in about a month’s time. I don't think that there's much more to be said. But we can draw lessons from this event.

[Enragé]

"French Socialist Party "

the parti socialiste is reactionary, and so is the communist party.

Independent leftist groups should try to contact groups of rioters

[Hiero]

Independent leftist groups should try to contact groups of rioters

And do what? "LOL HI, LOL WANT TO REVOLUTUON LOL"

The riots are a cause of social probelms lumpen proletariat go through, and espically alienated miniorities.

These are conflicts are not a cause of economics, it's not one class against another.

[Simon]

Yaha! In Brussels (here in Belgium) there where set 5cars into fire, also in Berlin.... let's hope it takes a left direction!

[The Feral Underclass]

The comparison between what is happening in Paris now and 1968 are false.

The Paris uprising in 1968 was an actual uprising of a political nature combined with ten million striking workers. This is by no means a comparison.

I do disagree with Hiero, this riots do have the potential to take on political forms and could turn into something more substantial than young people fighting with the police, and although I would probably argue that is a fair form of protest in and of itself, this is not a prerequisite for a revolution and the likelihood that it will become a revolution are very slim.

Moments of riots like these can have the ability to turn into moments of insurrection and done properly, that could lead to something else, but unless there is some kind of political direction and more importantly organisation, that isn't going to happen.

[*PRC*Kensei]

I'm not so shure it will end... and i dont want it to end already, it must spread, create a good revolutionary situation.

And for the people complaining about the burned cars:
if your sitting in that same old building for 18 years sharing it with 3 other fammilies without work & some asshole insults you + 2 of your comrades get TOASTED... you god mad... and if you go mad, it has to burn, you dont care what at that moment, they have no future.... they jus twant to REVOLT.
and for the right winging crap (of fucking debate @ school, me & revolutionary friend where only people defending the paris youngsters) who say "its not a solution"

WTF should they do without future ? mass suicide ??? no material dammage then, no burning cars, just 3 miljon dead working or wanna-be-working poor. thats your solution isnt it ?

Comrades, are we afraid of ruins ???? are we afraid of a revolutionary situation now it comes near our homes ??? - i heard it started in berlin & brussels to :lol: -

We should support that dammit.

And for anyone who just piss on them & say their all gansters: why dont just say "niggers are lazy" :angry: Cause thats what you mean in the end, whether their black, brouwn, white, thats just what the right wing wants to say, covered behind their democratic lies.

VIVA LA REVOLUTION, VIVA LA FRACE !

[h&s]

Comrades, are we afraid of ruins ???? are we afraid of a revolutionary situation now it comes near our homes ??? - i heard it started in berlin & brussels to
Is it a revolutionary situation though? Are the mass of people wanting a new system and to overthrow this one? Do the workers want to take control of their workplaces?
This is just disaffected youth at the moment - if other channels take up the criticisms of the state they have something good could some of this, but as the majority of the French people do not agree with these methods it is not a revolution.

[*PRC*Kensei]

its not a revolution.

but as it's spreading among europe, it creates a revolutionary situation... and not a big one, but still one.
And i wasnt talking about a RED revolutionary situation. it can turn any color it wants; but i think we all agree that we need a (no mather what kind of) revolutionary situation to create a (red) revolution.
thats how i experience things comrade :)

[h&s]

A revolution is where the ruling class in society is changed - on its own, this will never achieve such a thing.
Its spreading accross Europe, yes, but then inequality and disaffected youth are too.
I think that this could trigger a situation, but not create one.

[*PRC*Kensei]

trigger or create, this is positive for the revolutionary sitation.

counter question: do u support them or not ?

[bcbm]

36 police injured, most violent night of rioting yet.

Possibly spreading into Belgium and Germany.

[The Grey Blur]

Originally posted by [email protected] 6 2005, 10:27 PM

They aren't attacking people in their own community, they're burning buildings; there's a differnce. Also, do yuo know why they are burning stuff? It's to draw the police (who go in with the firebrigades) into the suburbs, where they are then attacked.

Oh bullfuckingshit! These kids aren't like "Yes, let's burn these buildings, so it will draw the cops in and then we can fight them!". They are not tactitioning, They are just angry youths burning shit, and that shit is people cars and buildings.

Maybe in your head that is a viable tactic, but they are not burning all this stuff for that purpose at all.
This was originally posted by Severian in another thread on this topic, all credit gos to him for the find.

'We're not germs or louts. Sarkozy should've said sorry'

Alex Duval Smith in Aulnay-sous-Bois
Sunday November 6, 2005
The Observer

Night falls and the violence can begin. The blue light of a passing police van flashes across the sweat on 17-year-old HB's forehead. 'They're provoking us by driving around like that. We are not going to stop until Sarkozy resigns,' he says.

For five nights in a row, HB and his mates have been battling with riot police on the notorious Mille-Mille housing estate, buried deep in the high-rise suburbs that line the motorway to Charles de Gaulle airport. They have burnt cars, businesses and a school but, really, they want the head of Interior Minister Nicolas Sarkozy.

'He should go and fuck himself,' says HB, who was born in France of Algerian parents. 'We are not germs. He said he wants to clean us up. He called us louts. He provoked us on television. He should have said sorry for showing us disrespect, but now it is too late.'

HB's views are clear. 'The only way to get the police here is to set fire to something. The fire brigade does not come here without the police, and the police are Sarkozy's men so they are the ones we want to see.'

All the dustbins were burnt long ago. 'Cars make good barricades and they burn nicely, and the cameras like them. How else are we going to get our message across to Sarkozy? It is not as if people like us can just turn up at his office.'

HB, who is at college training to be a chef, claims he likes his estate and the unity he feels between people with Caribbean parents, black Africans, a few people of standard French descent and first, second and third-generation Moroccans and Algerians who have made up the majority of Aulnay-sous-Bois's population for the past 30 years.

The eldest of five, his father came to France at the age of seven and has been employed ever since by the municipality. HB feels a 'tremendous togetherness' at Mille-Mille, but he does not feel 'French'.

Jobs? 'There are a few at the airport and at the Citroën plant, but it's not even worth trying if your name is Mohamed or Abdelaoui.'

A cannabis joint is passed around and HB admits the parallel economy reigns in 'Neuf-Trois' (93, the administrative number of the Seine-Saint-Denis département of which Aulnay is part). 'The police are hypocrites. Many of them - though not the riot police who've been bussed in from the sticks in the past few days - know us. They know there are hash deals and who is doing them. They also know something that Sarkozy has not understood: just because you live on a housing estate doesn't make you a criminal.'

When asked if he considers himself integrated in France, HB claims that is not his aspiration. 'I am not sure what the word means. I am part of Mille-Mille and Seine-Saint-Denis, but I am not part of Sarkozy's France, or even the France of our local mayor whom we never see. At the same time, I realise I am French, because when I visit my parents' village in Algeria that doesn't feel like home either.'

[*PRC*Kensei]

anyone has news about the riots in other EU countrys ?

really cool to hear the are going to berlin ^^ now london !

[*PRC*Kensei]

Oh bullfuckingshit! These kids aren't like "Yes, let's burn these buildings, so it will draw the cops in and then we can fight them!". They are not tactitioning, They are just angry youths burning shit, and that shit is people cars and buildings.

and how do u know that my dear men ? :ph34r:

[Enragé]

I do disagree with Hiero, this riots do have the potential to take on political forms and could turn into something more substantial than young people fighting with the police, and although I would probably argue that is a fair form of protest in and of itself, this is not a prerequisite for a revolution and the likelihood that it will become a revolution are very slim.

Moments of riots like these can have the ability to turn into moments of insurrection and done properly, that could lead to something else, but unless there is some kind of political direction and more importantly organisation, that isn't going to happen.

exactly


anyone has news about the riots in other EU countrys ?

nothing besides a couple of cars being torched is brussels and berlin



Is it a revolutionary situation though? Are the mass of people wanting a new system and to overthrow this one? Do the workers want to take control of their workplaces?
This is just disaffected youth at the moment - if other channels take up the criticisms of the state they have something good could some of this, but as the majority of the French people do not agree with these methods it is not a revolution.

Once the army has been deployed and people see the opression of the system coming into full view...then we'll have a completely different situation.

[Erebos]

Today is November 4. , and that's the red revolution's day. I think we can easily put on the crown on this day with this revolutionary , situation , with making it a true revolution all over the world. Comrades, if the time's come , we must fight for a better , socialist world! :hammer: :marx: :engles: :che: :castro:

[YourNewMessiah]

I agree with Erebos here. Everyone keeps asking the same question of whether or not this is actually a revolutionary situation. Well, no. Not yet it isn't. However, there's always the possibility of making it one.

Molotov anyone?

[Edelweiss]

The riots are just and well-founded. They are a result of decades of hopelessness, repression, discrimination and exploitation of French/EU migrants. The rioting French youth deserve all our solidarity.

However, the violence is not target-oriented enough, only inderictly politically motivated, and the rioters are not organized enough so that I would call it a revolutionary situation. So most likely the riots will slow down again within the next weeks.

[drain.you]

I have a little hope, relying on the anti-terror bill that will go to the vote on Wednesday in the UK.
Its about extending the amount of time of holding terrorist suspects to 90days without trial. In my opinion, its wrong to hold someone overnight without intention of trial. I mean, its a breach of rights.
This bill will be aimed at ethnic minorities, yes? Since its unlucky that the police will use it to hold english-born citizens under terrorist charges. Its the same kind of racism directed at ethnic minorities in France.
If this bill gets past, which I think it may - i'm not sure, but if it gets passed then people should riot. Riot against the bill!
It is taking away the rights of our people in the name of the 'war on terror'.
It is racism in the name of the 'war on terror'

We need to learn from the French and say no to governments using the threat of terrorism to take our rights and incite racism amongst people and hatred towards certain religions.

I'm in London this weekend. We will know if the bill is passed on Wednesday. Hopefully the people will riot, hopefully I can riot with them in London if it begins.

[Ownthink]

Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2005, 04:28 PM
The riots are just and well-founded. They are a result of decades of hopelessness, repression, discrimination and exploitation of French/EU migrants. The rioting French youth deserve all our solidarity.

However, the violence is not target-oriented enough, only inderictly politically motivated, and the rioters are not organized enough so that I would call it a revolutionary situation. So most likely the riots will slow down again within the next weeks.
Let's hear you be so "They need our solidarity, blah blah blah" after I torch your:
Car, kids Nursery, local carpet shop, friends cars, familys cars, and a disabled old woman.

This is just angry youth burning and destroying everything they can. I can't believe you guys actually think some riot has revolutionary undertones. Woohoo, some pissed off poor people are now burning everything in sight because something bad happened. Oh, wait, that's not your car they just torched, so it's all good. I mean, the thousands of workers who now can no longer get to work must be really happy about all of the radical change brought about by these young pissed off rioters burning everything.

[Edelweiss]

Ownthink, the bourgeois moral that is speaking out of you is nothing but disgusting. Maybe you should actually listen and understand what I said, stop watching Fox news, and start to think for your own.

[Ownthink]

Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2005, 04:58 PM
Ownthink, the bourgeois moral that is speaking out of you is nothing but disgusting. Maybe you should actually listen and understand what I said, stop watching Fox news, and start to think for your own.
Maybe you should quit being a total dick and think for yourself, you programmed robot. Yes, I watch Fox News. Yep, the guy cheering on the Resistance and hoping more soldiers die watches Fox news.

YOU are the one who just spews your "solidarity struggle" rhetoric whenever somebody burns something. I can't believe this shit. You're cheering on fucking RIOTERS. Bourgeois liberal? Fuck you. Just because your dumbass sitting behind a computer thinks that 5,000 workers cannot now get to work because their cars were set aflame by a bunch of angry young kids is revolutionary doesn't mean everyone who doesn't agree with you is automatically "un left".

It's sure easy sitting on your ass to claim that it's cool when community buildings, shops, thousands of cars are torched. I mean, hey, it's Revolutionary, right? A bunch of angry youth burning everything they can? Your stupidity amazes me. Quit thinking every display of violence or anger is "revolutionary".

I wish it was YOUR car that was torched and YOUR kids nursery set ablaze. Maybe then you wouldn't be so fucking quick to spout your "revolutionary struggle" bullshit whenever something is set on fire.


Blowing up the corporate headquarters of Starbucks? Sure. Assasinating a stock market mogul? Go ahead, you have my support. But torching the shops, cars, buses, etc of WORKING CLASS PEOPLE IS NOT FUCKING REVOLUTIONARY!

Get a brain, stop shouting off this rhetoric about class struggle, and think for a second the reality of what is being done here.

[Intifada]

The protests/riots have been directed, in general, at the police and police buildings. Of course, there has been destruction of vehicles and schools, etc, but, violent crime has been common in the poverty-stricken suburbs of Paris, with 20-40 cars torched each night, on average, so far this year.

I think, Ownthink, you must get beyond the torching of vehicles and support those who have had enough of the poverty, unemployment and racism that they have endured.

[Edelweiss]

A class analysis shows this is just an average lumpen proleteriat riot

:lol: Yeah like it happens every few months here in Europe, it's just normal that suburbs all over a central European country are burning. Just an average riot, nothing special.

BTW: Please don't use the term "lumpenproletariat", although it originally was used by Marx, it's an outdated, offending and insulting term, since "lumpen" means rag. It's a word which isn't used by hardly anyone over here to describe the poorest of the poor.

[drain.you]

I think, Ownthink, you must get beyond the torching of vehicles and support those who have had enough of the poverty, unemployment and racism that they have endured.
I agree.


Maybe you should quit being a total dick and think for yourself,
And that was totally out of line.

[Edelweiss]

You're cheering on fucking RIOTERS.

OMG, indeed I do! How nasty I am! Go and tell your mom! :lol:

On a serious sidenote: Maybe you should actually start thinking WHY this riots have developed at all, and what the actual social reasons for it are. If you would knew about the siutation in the French suburbs, you would know that something like this was just a question of time. Maybe you should stop yelling and spewing your bourgeois bullshit moral about harmed private property, and start and blame those who are resposnible for the social scope in the French suburbs.

also, at least fucking read what I have actually written: I clearly said


However, the violence is not target-oriented enough, only inderictly politically motivated, and the rioters are not organized enough so that I would call it a revolutionary situation.

[Ownthink]

Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2005, 05:21 PM

A class analysis shows this is just an average lumpen proleteriat riot

:lol: Yeah like it happens every few months here in Europe, it's just normal that suburbs all over a central European country are burning. Just an average riot, nothing special.

BTW: Please don't use the term "lumpenproletariat", although it originally was used by Marx, it's an outdated, offending and insulting term, since "lumpen" means rag. It's a word which isn't used by hardly anyone over here to describe the poorest of the poor.
At least he is not telling other people they are "un left bouregois liberals who watch fox news" if they disagree with you.

[Edelweiss]

un left bouregois liberals

I never called you that. I said you are driven by bougeois moral, which is a plain fact.

[pandora]

Here is an excellent resource on the Riots in France
Its called Direland and was recommended to me by an old school lefty
The name of the article is
"WHY IS FRANCE BURNING? The rebellion of a lost generation!"
& is located at http://direland.typepad.com/


It has a lovely analyze such as quotes from Mitterrand: "What hope does a young person have who's been born in a quartier without a soul, who lives in an unspeakably ugly high-rise, surrounded by more ugliness, imprisoned by gray walls in a gray wasteland and condemned to a gray life, with all around a society that prefers to look away until it's time to get mad, time to FORBID."


And paraphrasing of Sarkozy: " Only poured verbal kerosene on the flames, dismissing the ghetto youth in the most insulting and racist terms and calling for a policy of repression. "Sarko" made headlines with his declarations that he would "karcherise" the ghettos of "la racaille"-- words the U.S. press, with glaring inadequaxcy, has translated to mean "clean" the ghettos of "scum." "

To me that sounds more like cleaning the ghettos of the race? Could France be ripe for a genocide against Algerian Muslim citizens? Will the French police turn into another Gestapo?

Only time will tell. And oh yes to those of you who get angry at the perpetrators I remind you of the L.A. riots as well. Riots like this are the natural consequence of many years of oppression. If you do not provide an alternative they are the natural consequence, anger at the oppressed does nothing to address why they angry or cool the rage, it only increases the problem.

Cheers the original Pandora! :wub:

[Ownthink]

Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2005, 05:38 PM

You're cheering on fucking RIOTERS.

OMG, indeed I do! How nasty I am! Go and tell your mom! :lol:

On a serious sidenote: Maybe you should actually start thinking WHY this riots have developed at all, and what the actual social reasons they have. If you would knew about the siutation in the French suburbs, you would know that something like this was just a question of time. Maybe you should stop yelling and spewing your bourgeois bullshit moral about harmed private property, and start and blame those who are resposnible for the social scope in the French suburbs.

also, at least fucking read what I have actually written: I clearly said


However, the violence is not target-oriented enough, only inderictly politically motivated, and the rioters are not organized enough so that I would call it a revolutionary situation.
Dude, what did I say? I don't care if it is corporate scum property that is destroyed. I think you are misunderstanding me. I am against the destruction of working class people's property, like cars. Nobody is out there burning down Enron headquarters or anything.

You also like to sound tough by saying that your property destruction opinion is too "hard core" for some people and that those who disagree with you must be Pat Robertson praising soccer moms who don't like to see things destroyed unless it's those family values destroying homosexuals or terrorist arabs. Wrong. I do want to see property destroyed, but not the cars of the workers!

You really are immature. You claim that people are "not as left as me!" if they disagree with you about the destruction of working class property.


I never called you that. I said you are driven by bougeois moral, which is a plain fact.

How the fuck is that a plain fact? Because I disagree with you? Because you think that me, a staunch Marxist, is all the sudden Bourgeois because I don't think torching everything in sight for weeks on end is the solution to society's problems?

I know the situation there was shitty, much as it is here in Detroit. But does thousands of rioters running through the streets torhcing every car they can see going to bring about Revolutionary change? Is it going to fix their neighborhoods and communities? Is the government suddenly going to care about those areas?

No. They don't even know what they're rioting AGAINST. They just know they are angry, and it is mob rule, and cars are easy targets.


The protests/riots have been directed, in general, at the police and police buildings. Of course, there has been destruction of vehicles and schools, etc, but, violent crime has been common in the poverty-stricken suburbs of Paris, with 20-40 cars torched each night, on average, so far this year.

I think, Ownthink, you must get beyond the torching of vehicles and support those who have had enough of the poverty, unemployment and racism that they have endured.

Fair enough. But is it really accomplishing anything? If social change could be brought about by the torching of a few thousand cars, I'm all for it. But what I think is that these riots do nothing except piss off the powers that be even more and alienate the workers making them seem like evil people who simply want to burn everything, and that is simply not true for the majority of workers.

[Intifada]

But is it really accomplishing anything?

Any action which challenges the authority of the state is worthy of praise.

The riots/protests are highlighting the issue of the exploitation of these poor people, and that alone justifies support for the continuation of the events we are seeing.

This could very much lead to greater things.


But what I think is that these riots do nothing except piss off the powers that be even more and alienate the workers making them seem like evil people who simply want to burn everything, and that is simply not true for the majority of workers.

Alienation of the working class is welcomed by me.

I support wholeheartedly class war, and so should any Marxist.

The capitalist ruling classes will unsurprisingly demonise the people who challenge them and the status quo. It is up to Marxists to refute such accusations that these people are simply "scum."

[Ownthink]

Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2005, 06:05 PM

But is it really accomplishing anything?

Any action which challenges the authority of the state is worthy of praise.

The riots/protests are highlighting the issue of the exploitation of these poor people, and that alone justifies support for the continuation of the events we are seeing.

This could very much lead to greater things.


But what I think is that these riots do nothing except piss off the powers that be even more and alienate the workers making them seem like evil people who simply want to burn everything, and that is simply not true for the majority of workers.

Alienation of the working class is welcomed by me.

I support wholeheartedly class war, and so should any Marxist.

The capitalist ruling classes will unsurprisingly demonise the people who challenge them and the status quo. It is up to Marxists to refute such accusations that these people are simply "scum."
Like I said, it all depends on what comes of this. If it is no more than a few thousand torched cars and angry people, and those areas are still poor and discriminated against and whatnot, then it wasn't worth it. If it sparks a Revolution, then it would be all worth it.

[The Grey Blur]

Ummmm, why is Ownthink pointedly ignoring my point about the 'burning-to-attract-police' tactic I posted about?

[Intifada]

Like I said, it all depends on what comes of this. If it is no more than a few thousand torched cars and angry people, and those areas are still poor and discriminated against and whatnot, then it wasn't worth it. If it sparks a Revolution, then it would be all worth it.



And, like I stated, we as Marxists must support those who resist further exploitation.

[Ownthink]

Originally posted by Rage Against The [email protected] 7 2005, 06:10 PM
Ummmm, why is Ownthink pointedly ignoring my point about the 'burning-to-attract-police' tactic I posted about?
I didn't, if you'd read my post from a while ago. I don't think that burning a few workers' cars to attract police is a viable tactic, nor do I know they're even using it.



And, like I stated, we as Marxists must support those who resist further exploitation.
To a degree. Would you say you supported the Taliban because America invaded Afghanistan and they were just defending themselves?

[Edelweiss]

Ummmm, why is Ownthink pointedly ignoring my point about the 'burning-to-attract-police' tactic I posted about?

because Ownthink is ignoring pretty much everything someone says, and is yelling bullshit about harmed "working-class property" (sic!) instead.

[Ownthink]

Ugh... Malte, you fail me.

I'm thinking about torching your home and screaming "Well, how else did you expect me to attract police? Sorry about the home, by the way!".

Revolution, Indeed.

[Lacrimi de Chiciură]

Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2005, 05:53 PM
Here is an excellent resource on the Riots in France
Its called Direland and was recommended to me by an old school lefty
The name of the article is
"WHY IS FRANCE BURNING? The rebellion of a lost generation!"
& is located at http://direland.typepad.com/


It has a lovely analyze such as quotes from Mitterrand: "What hope does a young person have who's been born in a quartier without a soul, who lives in an unspeakably ugly high-rise, surrounded by more ugliness, imprisoned by gray walls in a gray wasteland and condemned to a gray life, with all around a society that prefers to look away until it's time to get mad, time to FORBID."


And paraphrasing of Sarkozy: " Only poured verbal kerosene on the flames, dismissing the ghetto youth in the most insulting and racist terms and calling for a policy of repression. "Sarko" made headlines with his declarations that he would "karcherise" the ghettos of "la racaille"-- words the U.S. press, with glaring inadequaxcy, has translated to mean "clean" the ghettos of "scum." "

To me that sounds more like cleaning the ghettos of the race? Could France be ripe for a genocide against Algerian Muslim citizens? Will the French police turn into another Gestapo?

Only time will tell. And oh yes to those of you who get angry at the perpetrators I remind you of the L.A. riots as well. Riots like this are the natural consequence of many years of oppression. If you do not provide an alternative they are the natural consequence, anger at the oppressed does nothing to address why they angry or cool the rage, it only increases the problem.

Cheers the original Pandora! :wub:
According to my French-English Dictionary "la racaille" is "riffraff."
Ownthink, you can't use that one example of some people burning a disabled woman to condemn all the rioters of doing wrong; there are thousands of rioters and that was just a few of them.

[Ownthink]

Originally posted by The wise old bird+Nov 7 2005, 06:47 PM--> (The wise old bird @ Nov 7 2005, 06:47 PM)
[email protected] 7 2005, 05:53 PM
Here is an excellent resource on the Riots in France
Its called Direland and was recommended to me by an old school lefty
The name of the article is
"WHY IS FRANCE BURNING? The rebellion of a lost generation!"
& is located at http://direland.typepad.com/


It has a lovely analyze such as quotes from Mitterrand: "What hope does a young person have who's been born in a quartier without a soul, who lives in an unspeakably ugly high-rise, surrounded by more ugliness, imprisoned by gray walls in a gray wasteland and condemned to a gray life, with all around a society that prefers to look away until it's time to get mad, time to FORBID."


And paraphrasing of Sarkozy: " Only poured verbal kerosene on the flames, dismissing the ghetto youth in the most insulting and racist terms and calling for a policy of repression. "Sarko" made headlines with his declarations that he would "karcherise" the ghettos of "la racaille"-- words the U.S. press, with glaring inadequaxcy, has translated to mean "clean" the ghettos of "scum." "

To me that sounds more like cleaning the ghettos of the race? Could France be ripe for a genocide against Algerian Muslim citizens? Will the French police turn into another Gestapo?

Only time will tell. And oh yes to those of you who get angry at the perpetrators I remind you of the L.A. riots as well. Riots like this are the natural consequence of many years of oppression. If you do not provide an alternative they are the natural consequence, anger at the oppressed does nothing to address why they angry or cool the rage, it only increases the problem.

Cheers the original Pandora! :wub:
According to my French-English Dictionary "la racaille" is "riffraff."
Ownthink, you can't use that one example of some people burning a disabled woman to condemn all the rioters of doing wrong; there are thousands of rioters and that was just a few of them. [/b]
I didn't use that sole example to discredit the rioters "movement". I used the fact that they are torching people's cars and whatnnot.

[Lacrimi de Chiciură]

Originally posted by Ownthink
I didn't use that sole example to discredit the rioters "movement". I used the fact that they are torching people's cars and whatnnot.
I'm not sure if torching cars is a good thing, I've never been to France, but in many metropolitan areas it is not always necessary to have a car (even in the u.s.a.) and from what I hear, the need for a car is even less there. Still, I see your point but I think that more good will come than bad from a few lost automobiles.

Regarding Sarkozy's statement: this was on that site someone posted:


"Karcher" is the well-known brand name of a system of cleaning surfaces by super-high-pressure sand-blasting or water-blasting that very violently peels away the outer skin of encrusted dirt -- like pigeon-shit -- even at the risk of damaging what's underneath. To apply this term to young human beings and proffer it as a strategy is a verbally fascist insult and, as a policy proposed by an Interior Minister, is about as close as one can get to hollering "ethnic cleansing" without actually saying so. It implies raw police power and force used very aggressively, with little regard for human rights. I wonder how many Anglo-American correspondents get the inflammatory, terribly vicious flavor of the word in French? The translation of "karcherise" by "clean" just misses completely the provocative, incendiary violence of what Sarko was really saying. And "racaille" is infinitely more pejorative than "scum" to French-speakers -- it has the flavor of characterizing an entire group of people as subhuman, inherently evil and criminal, worthless, and is, in other words, one of the most serious and dehumanizing insults one could launch at the rebellious ghetto youth. Kerosene, indeed.

Shows how much can be lost in a translation.

[lovebombanarchy]

Originally posted by lovebombanarchy+Nov 7 2005, 04:10 AM--> (lovebombanarchy @ Nov 7 2005, 04:10 AM)
[email protected] 4 2005, 07:05 AM
- The corporate media of course is playing this down to "youths rioting" even though white workers have joined the black rioters on the streets.

[/b]
again...does anyone have a source on this?
In my opinion, the only way that this riot could lead to a revolution is if oppressed non-immigrants and native Frenchpeople start actively participating.

It quite possibly could happen. I would point to the recent landslide rejection of the neoliberal EU "constitution" as a precursor to the unrest in France today... the majority of French don't trust their government anymore.

On a slightly different topic...does anyone here speak French? I think that it would be cool if we could get in contact with Paris Indymedia...and ask what we can do to help. In my opinion, this would be a great time for the Paris IMC to go on a propaganda (for lack of a less authoritarian term) offensive... there are probably thousands of native French people who are undecided as to whether or not to join in the rebellion... if the Paris IMC could start a major campaign of agitating against capitalism and statism now, it could turn this thing from a minor cathartic riot into a full fledged revolution... people are already fighting in the streets, there's already momentum in favor of change...what French leftists can do is help shape the political demands of the rioters...help galvanize French opinion against the state and capitalism.

[Ownthink]

Just to clarify, I am totally for "fighting in the streets". Just as long as it is real fighting against Police/State/Mil/etc, not setting ablaze people's cars.

Although, if someone had a better method of getting the attnetion of police, that'd be cool. But since it is in the 2nd week, and the Pigs are already out in full force, maybe they can stop firebombing cars and start firebombing police?

[Ownthink]

I just watched a news report from CNN that said nurseries, bars, cars, shops, schools, and even a hospital was set on fire. Now, this is where I start to question that. I don't think that ALL of that shit was set on fire in one night. It's possible, but highly unlikely.

It then spoke of a teenager arrested for jacking a car and he was quoted as saying "We won't stop this until Sarkozy quits." and th reporter went on to say that many other "Leftists also echo his words" and that they want him to quit for his comments recently.

[which doctor]

They are now fire bombing police and police stations and they are shooting at police. OF course CNN is going to criminalise the rioters. I also watch the major news networks, but I don't believe them too much.

[Ownthink]

Originally posted by Fist of [email protected] 7 2005, 08:47 PM
They are now fire bombing police and police stations and they are shooting at police. OF course CNN is going to criminalise the rioters. I also watch the major news networks, but I don't believe them too much.
That is good to hear, Comrade. Those are the correct targets!

[Guerrilla22]

Impoverished people live under great stress. These people need to let the world know about there situation. These people live in a society that does not want to include them. They are outsiders in there own country. Sometimes the only way to institute change is to get notice any way you can.

[Ownthink]

Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2005, 09:31 PM
Impoverished people live under great stress. These people need to let the world know about there situation. These people live in a society that does not want to include them. They are outsiders in there own country. Sometimes the only way to institute change is to get notice any way you can.
Good point, Noted.

[18tir]

I'm sorry to disagree with most of the posters here, but I really don't see what is so great about torching schools, hospitals and working people's cars. A socialist revolution is supposed to be about empowering the masses, not making life miserable for them. It appears that this violence is being provoked by a few opportunistic criminals who want to use this occasion to spread civil unrest and anarchy. If this "uprising" is said to be in the name of the Arabs and Muslims in France, then it is counterproductive. In fact, it will easily play into the hands of the extreme-right Nazis, such as Le Pen's National Front. What we will see now is more anti-Arab violence and increased racial tensions. If the government really wants to do something right, then it go ahead with its plans for a police curfew and go after these rioters.

[Xvall]

I hear they targeted some churches.

[drain.you]

According to BBC News website, rioting has calmed down in Paris since that curfew came in place yesterday...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4414684.stm

[Enragé]

but I really don't see what is so great about torching schools, hospitals and working people's cars

its not great, and nobody's saying it is. You have to look at it like this: the rioters are destroying anything linked to the state, this means police stations, but also schools and hospitals (but which i believe are mostly scattered incidents). Setting cars on fire is a tactic to get the police after 'em.


A socialist revolution is supposed to be about empowering the masses, not making life miserable for them.

Life already is miserable there, and lots of people would have known exactly nothing about the banlieues if this werent happening.

I was watching an interview with a rioteer last night, he said "Either sarkozy steps down, or this will continue. We will attack anything which profits the state. It will be an economic war, and thus we will destroy france's economy. IN 1789 there was a revolution of the french people, and, if necessary, so will there be one in 2005."

Some "victims" of the riots, bus drivers whose busses were torched commented "What should the youths have done else? Keep quiet? Their lives are miserable, there are no jobs, no future."



It appears that this violence is being provoked by a few opportunistic criminals who want to use this occasion to spread civil unrest and anarchy

How do you think unrest profits criminals?!? They want everything to be quiet and orderly so they can deal drugs, sell guns etc. Criminals need stability as much as the state does.


If this "uprising" is said to be in the name of the Arabs and Muslims in France, then it is counterproductive.

Its not, its in the name of the discriminated, the scorned, the disgraced, the oppressed.


In fact, it will easily play into the hands of the extreme-right Nazis, such as Le Pen's National Front. What we will see now is more anti-Arab violence and increased racial tensions.

Thats why we have to make the truth known.
And the fascists who remain, au guillotine.


If the government really wants to do something right, then it go ahead with its plans for a police curfew and go after these rioters.

The more the police tries to surpress the rioters, the more their numbers will swell, the more oppression, the more resistance.
I say let them do that, let them even bring in the military, let them reveal the ugly face this system is trying to hide from the world!
And then...

let us dream, sabotage, destroy, create


I hear they targeted some churches.

Isolated incidents i think, magnified by mainstream media to discredit the riots.


According to BBC News website, rioting has calmed down in Paris since that curfew came in place yesterday...

Do you know why they say that?
Because only 1200 cars were torched instead of 1400.

Also...repression doesnt take away the anger, it just takes away ways in which you can show it to the world, if anything, repression enflames rage.

[*PRC*Kensei]

Let me create a little poem about this...please dont mind the spelling, i'm inventing it right away + got dislectie , meaning.... i spell badly :P

------------------
"On feet of coals i tread"

On feet of coals i tread,
on these same roads evry day,
my feet have scratshed the floor so many times, that they,
like made out of fosfor, catched flame,
and so i tread on feet of coals.

I raise my Left fist, and protest again,
the corruption,
discrimination,
the damn facist nation..
and with the force of a vulcano, my red fist will strike,

BURN those cars !

So, we ALL will have to walk on these roads.... ... Aslong as my feet are coals.

--------------------

trying to capture the spirit of the paris youngsters who live in these sad neigbourhoods & now revolt,

what u think of it ?

AND BTW: whats wrong with burning churches ? u all so catolic ?

[Enragé]

well the poem is nice except i dont think most youths would have "red fists".

"whats wrong with burning churches ? u all so catolic ? "

the riots escalated because a teargas grenade was shot into a mosque, so burning churches would be hypocritical. Now if the protesters were burning mosques, churches and synagogues alike... why not, though it might alienate the masses.

we need a place to piss, not a place to pray

[*PRC*Kensei]

Originally posted by [email protected] 8 2005, 03:50 PM
well the poem is nice except i dont think most youths would have "red fists".

"whats wrong with burning churches ? u all so catolic ? "

the riots escalated because a teargas grenade was shot into a mosque, so burning churches would be hypocritical. Now if the protesters were burning mosques, churches and synagogues alike... why not, though it might alienate the masses.



we need a place to piss, not a place to pray


:D :P

ROLF,

best think i heard in years !!! :lol:

[The Grey Blur]

Socially divided in two, Paris is a powderkeg just waiting to explode Eamonn Houston, Daily Ireland 8 November

Anyone who has taken a flight to Beauvais military airport, about an hour’s drive north of Paris, and travelled into Europe’s “City of Light” will have passed dozens of concrete talismans of despair.
To the left and right of the main route into the city are huge grey tower blocks, with washing hanging from balconies and graffiti daubed on every foot and traffic bridge.
You would be forgiven for thinking that this could not be anything connected with the Paris of the tourist brochures — but it is Paris and it is very real.
In the early 1990s, I lived and worked for a time in Paris. I quickly learned that the magnificently preserved architecture, the Chanel-clad ladies and designer boutiques of La Madeleine and the sophisticated cafés formed one side of a city that socially has been split in two.
Billeted in the high-rise concrete tombs just far enough away from the fashionable districts of the city centre are the thousands of immigrants. They are connected to the central area of Paris by the RER (Regional Express Network) railway tracks fanning outwards, north, south, east and west.
The squalor and sense of gloom in these places was frightening back then. Even the dogs that wander the streets were emaciated. The children wander barefoot in the searing heat of summer and the biting cold of winter.
They can be seen scuttling around the landmarks of Notre Dame, the Eiffel Tower and Montmartre begging for a few euro. I was told by the “real” Parisians that the children take what little they get to fathers who spend it on cheap alcohol.
“Don’t give them anything,” I was told, so I would give them chocolate when I came across them.
The Arabs, north Africans, so-called gitanes (gypsies) and the flotsam and jetsam of Parisian society live in these places.
They are not disenfranchised because they had nothing to begin with. Most of all, they are made not to feel a part of “gay Paris”.
They are naturally suspicious and hostile to most western Europeans.
For many, tourists are for the taking and the French man is for hating.
This was obvious to me in the early 1990s, at a time when a world Islamist resurgence would have been unheard of. That the frustrations being felt by Muslims worldwide have found their way into the ghettos of Paris is no surprise to me now.
In the sprawling ghettos of Paris, the CRS police force is deployed with effect to these districts. The Compagnies Républicaines de Sécurité (Republican Security Companies) are the toughest of the three police forces in Paris and have a fearsome reputation.
The mayor of Clichy-sous-Bois, one of these suburbs in northeastern Paris, last week described the area as a “powderkeg” and rightly so. It has been a powderkeg for years.
It is the young people who have taken to the streets. They have no jobs, no sense of belonging.
It was predictable that this powderkeg would explode.
Equally predictable was the stance of French interior minister Nicolas Sarkozy, who described last week’s rioters as “scum” (“racaille”).
The southern suburb of Grigny has also exploded. Don’t be surprised to hear the names Noisy-le-Grand, Noisy-Champs and other grim suburbs as they follow suit.
Their revolt is against anything that remotely resembles French authority — the authorities that abandoned and consigned them and their north African and sub-Saharan African parents to living in slums.
The words of the French interior minister ring like those of British military men and politicians when they referred to street protests for civil rights and jobs in the North of Ireland in the late 1960s.
Paratroop commander Colonel Derek Wilford branded the youth of the Bogside “hooligans” before his troops shot dead 13 demonstrators on January 30, 1972.
The Israeli authorities brand the stone-throwing teenagers of Ramallah in a similar way.
The unfolding situation in Paris is much the same. When people are deliberately deprived and sidelined, they revolt. What has happened in Paris during the past week has been the revolt of Les Misérables.
Suddenly the world has heard about the downtrodden suburbs of Paris and this has stung the authorities.
The traditional images of splendour and pigeon-chested pride have been supplanted by those of what looks like a street revolution. Not good for business.
“The republic is quite determined, by definition, to be stronger than those who want to sow violence or fear,” President Jacques Chirac said after an emergency session of the country’s domestic security council. “The law must have the last word.”
The words are chilling. The last thing that Paris needs is more teenage martyrs from its suburbs.
As Victor Hugo wrote in Les Misérables: “There is always more misery among the lower classes than there is humanity in the higher."

[Enragé]

all british check this out!

http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php...entry1291968201 (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=42501&st=0&#entry1291968201)

[Erebos]

I think , that this movement can't be stopped , it will spread all over Europe , and if we are lucky , capitalism will fall. The big cities will burn , and no riots who can stop this.

[MiniOswald]

Originally posted by [email protected] 8 2005, 05:10 PM
I think , that this movement can't be stopped , it will spread all over Europe , and if we are lucky , capitalism will fall. The big cities will burn , and no riots who can stop this.
12 days of riots and you've got the whole of europe in mass revolution. Try not too get your hopes up too much kids.

[Anarchist Freedom]

I support these riots because people are actually standing up and trying to get the message that they arent just a silent underclass and that french society needs to do its part in integrating them into society.

[pandora]

Only one death since the riots started, a 61 year old man who died later from injuries. Meanwhile the police started it by killing two people. Not surprisingly the police have killed more people than the rioters. :o

[novemba]

hahaha [email protected] malte vs. ownthink

i dunno about malte but ownthink i know for a fact that youre at least petite-bourgeios, like me and probably everyone else on this board.

nothing to worry about, as long as you support the proletarian than there is no point in fighting about it...although i must say that you do need to cut off the CNN...that goes for everyone...

what i hate most about this thread and a majority of your thoughts on the matter is that you keep insisting the people need guidance, a party, or a 'red' fist etc etc etc, can't it just be a geniune grassroot uprising, that's the way it's supposed to be...

EDIT: they may need red/black guidance later, but def not now, if this does spawn a revolutionary situation and then a a full blown revolution, a civil war will definately follow and it's in those latter two stages that they'll need our guidance

[Enragé]

"what i hate most about this thread and a majority of your thoughts on the matter is that you keep insisting the people need guidance, a party, or a 'red' fist etc etc etc, can't it just be a geniune grassroot uprising, that's the way it's supposed to be..."

the point is, there is no real thought behind it, no long term goals, also no decent organisation

yet...

[Intifada]

Would you say you supported the Taliban because America invaded Afghanistan and they were just defending themselves?


That is a dumb comparison, with all due respect.

The Taliban were not being exploited and subjected to racism, unemployment and poverty. The Taliban were the ruling class, and one which treated it's citizens like shit. They were only defending their power over the Afghan people.

Also remember that for the most part, they were the friends of Washington.

[Ownthink]

Originally posted by [email protected] 8 2005, 03:42 PM

Would you say you supported the Taliban because America invaded Afghanistan and they were just defending themselves?


That is a dumb comparison, with all due respect.

The Taliban were not being exploited and subjected to racism, unemployment and poverty. The Taliban were the ruling class, and one which treated it's citizens like shit. They were only defending their power over the Afghan people.

Also remember that for the most part, they were the friends of Washington.
Heh, no offense taken. You don't have to respect me if you don't want to. That is a good point, but I didn't think anyone would take that comparison seriously.

"novemba", I honestly don't think you can be critical of anyone. Really. I don't watch CNN at all, it was a net broadcast and I happened to see the link so I watched it. Just as I watch O'Reilly just to see the Right-wing spin that is being put on real issues these days.

[MiniOswald]

So, which of you is going there now? Of those of you who are so certain this is a full blown class war erupting, whos going? and I dont mean once its a full blown war but I mean as it is now. Whos going to help give.....guidance to these riots?

[Guerrilla22]

Yeah, unfortunately there seems to be a lack of leftist groups participating, or at least I have not heard of any participating. The media is painting it as solely a muslim uprising.

[18tir]

Setting cars on fire is a tactic to get the police after 'em.

But why should they want this? What is the point of provoking police repression? You quoted one rioter as saying that they wanted to destroy France's economy. This will do nothing to gain the sympathy of the French people or to encourage any social change. Rather, it will worsen anti-Arab and anti-Muslim sentiment. These riots may have gotten the government's attention, but the main beneficiaries of this will be the extreme right. I'm not excusing the racism the Arabs have suffered. They have a right to be angry. But this is not the solution and I think it will be worse for them in the end.

[Guerrilla22]

Have these riots spread into other countries at all? Does anyone know?

[Zonk]

http://www.londonclasswar.org/French.pdf

[Edelweiss]

see also http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2005/11/327207.html

[tatu]

Interior Minister Nicolas Sarkozy visits riot-hit Toulouse

Rioting has continued in France for a 13th consecutive night, despite emergency powers aimed at restoring order coming into force.

More than 500 cars had been torched by 0400 (0300GMT), police said. Around 200 people were arrested.

But police said the levels of violence across the country were lower than the previous night.

The northern city of Amiens was the first to impose an overnight curfew under the new emergency plan.

The special decree giving local authorities and police emergency powers to deal with rioters came into force at midnight.

Two Paris suburbs, Savigny-sur-Orge and Le Raincy, as well as the historic city of Orleans, have already declared separate curfews not covered by the law.

Despite this, incidents were reported in several areas:


The entire public transport network was shut down in the central-eastern city of Lyon after a Molotov cocktail was thrown at a train station

A gas-powered bus exploded in the suburbs of the south-western city of Bordeaux after it was hit by a Molotov cocktail

Youths in the nearby city of Toulouse threw firebombs at police and set fire to cars

Paris, where the rioting began nearly two weeks ago, was relatively calm with some isolated cases of arson and a dozen arrests, the police said.

Shortly before the decree came into effect, Interior Minister Nicolas Sarkozy, on a visit to Toulouse, said police were reporting a "fairly significant fall" in violence.

State of emergency

The emergency powers were approved in a special cabinet meeting earlier on Tuesday.


CURFEW LAW
Cabinet can declare state of emergency in all or part of the country
Regional leaders given exceptional powers to apply curfew
Breach of curfew could mean two-month jail sentence
Police can carry out raids on suspected weapons stockpiles
Interior minister can issue house-arrest warrants for those deemed dangerous to public safety
Public meeting places can be closed down
House searches possible day or night
Authorities can control media, film and theatre performances
Emergency can only be extended beyond 12 days if approved by parliament


They allow a state of emergency to be declared in defined areas, restricting the movement of people and vehicles.

Police are entitled to carry out house searches and ban public meetings.

Mr Sarkozy, who announced the measures, said: "The violent events that happened in our territory, and the people responsible [for the violence] will be arrested and punished".

But some opposition parties, and the French magistrates association, have described the measures as a danger to civil liberties.

Minors are subject to the law between 2200 and 0600 (2100 and 0500 GMT) unless accompanied by an adult, and are also banned from buying petrol.

Social improvements

The nightly protests have gripped deprived areas where unemployment is rife and residents complain of racism and discrimination.


KEY FLASHPOINTS


Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin said on Tuesday the restoration of law and order in those suburbs would take time and hard work.

And he also outlined plans to improve opportunities for young people through jobs and education programmes and create an agency to combat racial discrimination.

"The republic is at a moment of truth," he said. "What is being questioned is the effectiveness of our integration model."

The unrest was first sparked by the deaths in the run-down Paris suburb of Clichy-sous-Bois of two youths, who were accidentally electrocuted at an electricity sub-station.


FRENCH RIOTS
One man killed
5,873 cars torched
1,500 people arrested
17 people sentenced
120 police and firefighters injured
Figures as of 8 November


Locals said they were being chased by the police, but the police deny this.

The new emergency powers handed to local authorities have been invoked under a 1955 law.

The law was originally passed to combat violence in Algeria in its war of independence against France from 1954-62. It was also used in New Caledonia in 1985.

This is the first time the law has been implemented in mainland France.


Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/hi/worl...ope/4419770.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/hi/world/europe/4419770.stm)

Published: 2005/11/09 06:00:14 GMT

© BBC MMV

[Enragé]

But why should they want this? What is the point of provoking police repression?

they are not provoking police oppression, its already there! They set cars on fire so the police comes after them in force and then the rioters throw molotovs at them.


You quoted one rioter as saying that they wanted to destroy France's economy. This will do nothing to gain the sympathy of the French people or to encourage any social change.

He said "We will attack anything which profits the state" etc. The economy profits the state. So its a logical conclusion the economy will have to be destroyed.

Bear in mind that in any case of marxist/anarchist revolution the (capitalist) economy will be utterly destroyed as well.


This will do nothing to gain the sympathy of the French people or to encourage any social change. Rather, it will worsen anti-Arab and anti-Muslim sentiment.

Its not just arabs and muslims rioting, its the entire banlieues. Even CNN admitted to this.

[patrickbeverley]

Originally posted by [email protected] 5 2005, 06:35 PM
Sorry if my message can't convey you my sarcasm as well.
That's the annoying thing about text (as opposed to face-to-face conversation). It's harder to be sarcastic without being misinterpreted. I actually thought you were being serious about the 'dumb assholes' thing as well till you posted the above.

[Kamraten]

I at first smiled when i heard about the riots, but iam afraid its turning out to be exactly what the fascism elite needs.

Like Tatu stated, the government of france have declared "State of emergency"
Enforcing laws that showes a glimps into the future of what a police state will look like.
The riots do not do anything more then supporting the terror laws and "security" of the nation, dividing the society and spreading fear over Europe. Giving the elite a step forward in their campaign of terror laws, wich we all know means to give up your right and liberties to the elite of our society.
All across europe government are now putting in laws and regulations to stop riots like in france, theese laws and regulations will still be there when the riots are over. And already i seen articles claiming that what we wittness in france is "Terror" no..its criminals to the government, not terrorist but as they put terror and riot together we can se how even theese actions will go under the new terrorist laws. Its like giving them a free terror attack.

Salvation will not come threw an unorganised army of youths setting cars to fire. The only outcome will be more fear more laws , more regulations , more liberties and rights set on fire. To clear the path for the global fascism regime and the police state too rise.

Theese riots will eventually die out, or be forced too.
All that will be left is ashes of our rights.

burn baby burn.

[DisIllusion]

I found this great quote about it in Newsweek.

"It has been simmering with all the exclusion, mistreatment and social misery and collapsed education. These families have been forced to the margins and are being kept there. It's a gangrene that has grown for years. We will soon be seeing urban guerilla war."

I think it's about time; the French social system is complete bullshit. At least in America, we have anti-discrimination laws that "protect" us immigrants, even if they fail regularly. In France, they have none of these things, and these kids are coming out of high school and college ready to work, but all the big, fascist corporations discriminate and hold these workers and their families down. Fuck the future possibility of a police state. The proletariat won't take any more of this shit, and they're finally being heard. The time for Revolution in Europe is now. Let the guerilla war come, I, plus the other oppressed workers in the world will support them.

[18tir]

they are not provoking police oppression, its already there! They set cars on fire so the police comes after them in force and then the rioters throw molotovs at them.

Sure, I accept that there is police brutality in France, just like there is in America. But why provoke them into using violence against you? If the youths set fire to cars, its obvious that the police are going to come. That's what their job is. If they throw gasoline bombs at the police, they could end up dead or in jail. Now, what does this accomplish? Nothing. Today, I heard of an incident in France where two 10-year old boys came onto a bus with knives and containers of oil and and gave the people on the bus 10 seconds to get off or the bus would be torched with them inside. This is just one example and it doesn't necessarily represent most of those in the streets, but it gives some idea of what is going on. None of this excuses the vast racism, police brutality and social inequality that exists in France, between, Arabs and Whites and poor and rich. But this type of criminal violence is going to far. The govenment's job is to provide safety and law and order for the people. If it cannot do this, then it has failed in its duty.

And in case anyone denies the goldmine this is for the Nazi right-wing, take a look at what Le Pen said today:

"Far-right leader Jean-Marie Le Pen, in an interview Wednesday with The Associated Press, said French nationals of immigrant backgrounds should be stripped of their nationality and sent "back to their country of origin" if they committed crimes.

He and others on the extreme right are trying to capitalize on the unrest by arguing that it shows the dangers of immigration. Le Pen said the riots were "just the start" of conflicts caused by "massive immigration from countries of the Third World that is threatening not just France but the whole continent."

[18tir]

Just one more thing to add:

I know that judging by the post above, This all sounds pretty right-wing (which contradicts the socialist red fist avatar. My point is not to degrade the Arab/African/Muslim minority in France. By one estimate, they comprise 10% of the French population and are mistreated and segregated into separate suburbs and communities. In many ways, this unrest is a product of France's unwillingness to assimilate the immigrants, some of whom are 2nd and 3rd generation, which means they are citizens of France. After this unrest dies down, the government should realize now that it must do something to integrate the Arabs and others into their society, not only to help avoid further riots but also to allow all citizens regardless of their background to prosper and better their living conditions. Allowing immigrants to come here for cheap labor and exploitation may bring short-term economic prosperity (at least for the Whites) but as this tragedy proves, it always leads to this type of social unrest in the end.

[Phalanx]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2005, 01:12 AM
I found this great quote about it in Newsweek.

"It has been simmering with all the exclusion, mistreatment and social misery and collapsed education. These families have been forced to the margins and are being kept there. It's a gangrene that has grown for years. We will soon be seeing urban guerilla war."
I think the media is saying that the rioting is quieting down now. Besides, I would have never guessed that this would turn into urban guerrilla warfare. If they're mostly under-18 I don't think they could get ahold of any weapons, at least none that could compete with the arsenal the police have.

[kurt]

hehe, I found it very funny reading this post, seeing all the reactionaries show their true colours.

[tatu]

Talking doesn't always win the day. First of all you need to get people to listen to what you have to say, then you have to make sure you definitely have their attention. Violence is an advanced form of expression used when people fail to lend you their ears when they should be. The French youths are feeling desperation in their bones, my friends. Most of us who post on this board don't have a clue how these youths are feeling right now. But please let me emphasise that I do not in anyway accept violence towards innocent bystanders (although I shouldn’t really comment on that as I do not fully understand the circumstances in the Paris riots). Let us not follow the example of the corrupt, right wing politicians who choose to view these riots at face value.

[rioters bloc]

Originally posted by Chinghis [email protected] 10 2005, 01:20 PM
I think the media is saying that the rioting is quieting down now. Besides, I would have never guessed that this would turn into urban guerrilla warfare. If they're mostly under-18 I don't think they could get ahold of any weapons, at least none that could compete with the arsenal the police have.
haha, did you see the video clip of the 2 or 3 dudes who held up a police car?

fucking gold, the four cops looked like they were gonna shit themselves.

[Kamraten]

I believe that violence ofcourse in theese days absolutly is necessary to make a change. i also feel that a big global class war will take place in a near future.
iam all for the youths burning some cars in paris, but iam afraid that the elite only gain advantage from it, if it doesnt lead to anything else.

[*PRC*Kensei]

I think it's about time; the French social system is complete bullshit. At least in America, we have anti-discrimination laws that "protect" us immigrants, even if they fail regularly In France, they have none of these things, and these kids are coming out of high school and college ready to work, but all the big, fascist corporations discriminate and hold these workers and their families down.


W T F.

comrade, i get the impression u dont know what ur talking about.

"At least in America, we have anti-discrimination laws that "protect" us immigrants, even if they fail regularly."

U think the europeon union doest have such laws ?
the EU is MILES ahead on social security if compared with the us;
And offcourse france did a bad job this time, offcourse there should be any poor neighberhoods,

but PLEASE dont tell me the US does better then the EU on this mather, USA = pure capitalism / imperialism.
Belgium does best of all on social security, and still....
But the usa doing better ? give me a break.

[Enragé]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2005, 01:17 AM

they are not provoking police oppression, its already there! They set cars on fire so the police comes after them in force and then the rioters throw molotovs at them.

Sure, I accept that there is police brutality in France, just like there is in America. But why provoke them into using violence against you? If the youths set fire to cars, its obvious that the police are going to come. That's what their job is. If they throw gasoline bombs at the police, they could end up dead or in jail. Now, what does this accomplish? Nothing. Today, I heard of an incident in France where two 10-year old boys came onto a bus with knives and containers of oil and and gave the people on the bus 10 seconds to get off or the bus would be torched with them inside. This is just one example and it doesn't necessarily represent most of those in the streets, but it gives some idea of what is going on. None of this excuses the vast racism, police brutality and social inequality that exists in France, between, Arabs and Whites and poor and rich. But this type of criminal violence is going to far. The govenment's job is to provide safety and law and order for the people. If it cannot do this, then it has failed in its duty.

And in case anyone denies the goldmine this is for the Nazi right-wing, take a look at what Le Pen said today:

"Far-right leader Jean-Marie Le Pen, in an interview Wednesday with The Associated Press, said French nationals of immigrant backgrounds should be stripped of their nationality and sent "back to their country of origin" if they committed crimes.

He and others on the extreme right are trying to capitalize on the unrest by arguing that it shows the dangers of immigration. Le Pen said the riots were "just the start" of conflicts caused by "massive immigration from countries of the Third World that is threatening not just France but the whole continent."
you really do have a bourgeois mentality <_<

[Djehuti]

From an antifascist in Paris:


We heard here that foreign medias have been really overrating what is going on here, even if it is true that suburbs are burning, and that there are many fights with the police every night.
You can understand that the young people from the suburbs are really expressing a lot of violence after decades of contempt, after being completely abandoned by the state (less and less public services, schools, educators, more and more unemployment, drugs and religion) and more recently, very insulting terms in the mouth of the police minister, as well as the death of two kids hunted by the police just for an identity control. Sarkozy, the police minister, is also candidate for the next presidential election, and absolutely wants to get the extreme right votes for him. So there is a lot of manipulation.
The thing is that there is no organisation, or even clear project or request behind the suburban youth actions, so there is no other people than them involved in the fights, which are more unwindings than political actions. And as they never had any trust or will to cooperate with any political organisation, even the most radical, we do not have any contact with them, and do not know much more than what we have through some individual contacts.
It is true that it is a very spontaneous movement, with real and legitimate anger of being treated like shit, but that there is also a will to "be seen in the TV", as well as a competition between cities in order to know which one burned the most cars. You find amongst them many different people, but the best ones escape from the suburb as soon as they can, if they can, which is not easy, and the average mentality that remains there amongst the young people is really very conservative (girls and women have no right to go out), and very business minded (they do not fight capitalism, they are just angry because they do not earn a lot of money). MTV and McDonald are their dreams, and many of them claim being Muslims, even if they do not know much about their religions, except the worst sides.
So I do not know what is going to come out from all this, it is actually a problem who started 40 years ago, it will not be easy to cure the French post-colonial attitude in a few weeks.

[Ownthink]

Originally posted by NewKindOfSoldier+Nov 10 2005, 10:43 AM--> (NewKindOfSoldier &#064; Nov 10 2005, 10:43 AM)
[email protected] 10 2005, 01:17 AM

they are not provoking police oppression, its already there&#33; They set cars on fire so the police comes after them in force and then the rioters throw molotovs at them.

Sure, I accept that there is police brutality in France, just like there is in America. But why provoke them into using violence against you? If the youths set fire to cars, its obvious that the police are going to come. That&#39;s what their job is. If they throw gasoline bombs at the police, they could end up dead or in jail. Now, what does this accomplish? Nothing. Today, I heard of an incident in France where two 10-year old boys came onto a bus with knives and containers of oil and and gave the people on the bus 10 seconds to get off or the bus would be torched with them inside. This is just one example and it doesn&#39;t necessarily represent most of those in the streets, but it gives some idea of what is going on. None of this excuses the vast racism, police brutality and social inequality that exists in France, between, Arabs and Whites and poor and rich. But this type of criminal violence is going to far. The govenment&#39;s job is to provide safety and law and order for the people. If it cannot do this, then it has failed in its duty.

And in case anyone denies the goldmine this is for the Nazi right-wing, take a look at what Le Pen said today:

"Far-right leader Jean-Marie Le Pen, in an interview Wednesday with The Associated Press, said French nationals of immigrant backgrounds should be stripped of their nationality and sent "back to their country of origin" if they committed crimes.

He and others on the extreme right are trying to capitalize on the unrest by arguing that it shows the dangers of immigration. Le Pen said the riots were "just the start" of conflicts caused by "massive immigration from countries of the Third World that is threatening not just France but the whole continent."
you really do have a bourgeois mentality <_< [/b]
Oh yes, excellent way of dismissing his points about how burning random shit is not going to all of the sudden make the government give a shit about those areas. Really effective "Revolution", indeed.


"You&#39;re just not a real leftist, you bourgeois piece of shit&#33; Because your leftist view differs from mine, I am going to call you bourgeoisie&#33;" :rolleyes:

[Edelweiss]

Ownthink, why do you keep polluting this thread with your mindless rants?

Facts are clearly proving you wrong. The French government already made all kinds of concessions, for example they did stop enormous cuts of the budget for social workers in the French suburbs. The French government also promised millions for a social programme to help youth in the suburbs.

All this couldn&#39;t be reached in decades before by peaceful protests and demonstrations of social workers, teachers, parents etc. The riots cleary show that burning cars indeed helped to the French rioting youth to make themself heard. The French rioting migrants have teached the world a valueable lesson about the nature bourgeois democarcy.

[Ownthink]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2005, 03:32 PM
Ownthink, why do you keep polluting this thread with your mindless rants?

Facts are clearly proving you wrong. The French government already made all kinds of concessions, for example they did stop enormous cuts of the budget for social workers in the French suburbs. The French government also promised millions for a social programme to help youth in the suburbs.

All this couldn&#39;t be reached in decades before by peaceful protests and demonstrations of social workers, teachers, parents etc. The riots cleary show that burning cars indeed helped to the French rioting youth to make themself heard. The French rioting migrants have teached the world a valueable lesson about the nature bourgeois democarcy.
What did I say earlier?

I&#39;m going to burn down your house and say it was in protest of my shitty social conditions and it was just a method used to attract cops to combat them. Sorry about your house, though&#33;

Put yourself into the shoes of the people who lost 5,000 cars. Now they can&#39;t get to work. I&#39;m sure the average French worker is just THRILLED by all the social change brought about by the burning of random cars and buildings&#33;


You are the pathetic ranter, who seems to think burning random people&#39;s shit in the street is oh-so Revolutionary.

:lol:

[metalero]

altough this can be actually a rebellion of exploited inmigrants, it can help spread awareness and conscience to other layers of the proletariat, and it can even lead to revolutionary situations. The roots of racism and exploitation come from French colonialism, and led to the actual material contradictions increased by the capitalist system.
This somehow reminds me of "el caracazo" in Venezuela back in 1989, when violent protests and rioting that began in shanty towns spread to the capital and other towns across the country. The riots — the worst in Venezuelan history — resulted in over 400 deaths, mostly at the hands of security forces. This was the begining of new era in Venezuela, were the exploited masses reacted with anger against neoliberal policies, but also against the false promises of buorguoise rule. Soon, a young bolivarian officer named Hugo Chavez showed-up...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caracazo#Lead-up

[Luís Henrique]

This somehow reminds me of "el caracazo" in Venezuela back in 1989, when violent protests and rioting that began in shanty towns spread to the capital and other towns across the country.

But the Caracazo had a clear political target: Carlos Andrés Perez had been elected President of Venezuela on an anti-neoliberal program, and, once in charge, started implementing strongly neoliberal policies. So the Caracazo demanded his ousting. The measures they opposed were very clear, the measures they wanted implemented were quite clear also (in fact, they were Andrés Perez&#39;s electoral platform&#33;).

The situation in France is completely different; the movement seems aimless. Maybe this is due to a biased press coverage, but... Djehuti&#39;s post makes me think not.

Luís Henrique

[18tir]

you really do have a bourgeois mentality

I don&#39;t know what that means, but my words have been confirmed by recent events. For example, a poll taken shows that 73% of French back the state of emergency and curfew. So now after nearly two weeks of mindless rioting, we are seeing the backlash against Muslims and Arabs. Already, they&#39;ve decided to deport over 100 of them out of the country. Instead of the rioters focusing their anger on symbols of the state and in a more constructive fashion, they thought it would be fun to attack other ordinary people&#39;s property. Now, the majority are against them, for good reasons.

How can a revolution succeed when the overwhelming majority of the people are backing the government?

[Ownthink]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2005, 04:40 PM

you really do have a bourgeois mentality

I don&#39;t know what that means, but my words have been confirmed by recent events. For example, a poll taken shows that 73% of French back the state of emergency and curfew. So now after nearly two weeks of mindless rioting, we are seeing the backlash against Muslims and Arabs. Already, they&#39;ve decided to deport over 100 of them out of the country. Instead of the rioters focusing their anger on symbols of the state and in a more constructive fashion, they thought it would be fun to attack other ordinary people&#39;s property. Now, the majority are against them, for good reasons.

How can a revolution succeed when the overwhelming majority of the people are backing the government?
I couldn&#39;t agree more with you.

Random property destruction is NOT revolution, at all. If anything, this simply plays into the hands of the right wingers in depicting the arabs and muslims in that area as "bad riot mongers".


These riots sucked ass. :angry:

[MiniOswald]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2005, 10:29 PM

I couldn&#39;t agree more with you.

Random property destruction is NOT revolution, at all. If anything, this simply plays into the hands of the right wingers in depicting the arabs and muslims in that area as "bad riot mongers".


These riots sucked ass. :angry:
Yer you might have a point about random property distruction, but you gotta admit, It is fun to break stuff aint it....

[DisIllusion]

I don&#39;t know, maybe I am being stupid. But all I was saying is that France doesn&#39;t have any laws against discrimination in jobs.

[Edelweiss]

Now they can&#39;t get to work.

What a pitty&#33; :lol:

Poor workers can&#39;t go to work to get exploited, they will be so damn angry, because as we all know, most people just LOVE their job.

[Edelweiss]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2005, 02:25 AM
I don&#39;t know, maybe I am being stupid. But all I was saying is that France doesn&#39;t have any laws against discrimination in jobs.
I think they have. Ironicly the new EU constitution did include much stricter anti-discrimination laws...

[Ownthink]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2005, 07:55 PM

Now they can&#39;t get to work.

What a pitty&#33; :lol:

Poor workers can&#39;t go to work to get exploited, they will be so damn angry, because as we all know, most people just LOVE their job.
Yeah, that whole part about providing for their family just eluded you, didn&#39;t it?


Your unintelligence amazes me.

[Rojo]

I agree with Ownthink, 18tir and the others. It looks like to much chaos to be a real revolution. Just read Djehuti post. How can it be revolutionary when they have car burning competitions. Sure they do have the right to rebel but burning peoples houses, cars and civic service buildings is just not right.

[Edelweiss]

Originally posted by Ownthink+Nov 11 2005, 03:45 AM--> (Ownthink &#064; Nov 11 2005, 03:45 AM)
[email protected] 10 2005, 07:55 PM

Now they can&#39;t get to work.

What a pitty&#33; :lol:

Poor workers can&#39;t go to work to get exploited, they will be so damn angry, because as we all know, most people just LOVE their job.
Yeah, that whole part about providing for their family just eluded you, didn&#39;t it?


Your unintelligence amazes me. [/b]
Unlike the US, in France you don&#39;t get fired when you don&#39;t appear at work for one day, there is such a thing called dismissal protection. Especialy if you have such a good reason why you haven&#39;t appeared, besides that there are other ways to go to work than by car. No worker will get fired because of this riots, and no family has to hunger because of it. Your argumentsvafre nothing but bullshit, and as already have been mentioned, a proof of a borgeois mentailty.

And again, I never called it a revolution, or a revolutionary movement, Ownthink

Your ignorance amazes me.

[refuse_resist]

The main causes of these riots are the same which sparked the Los Angeles riots in 1992. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1992_Los_Angeles_Riot

You really can&#39;t blame them for doing all this. For years they&#39;ve been alienated and discriminated against, so it was only a matter of time until this would happen.

Also, I hope none of you are going by what the racist, Islamophobic mainstream media says about all this. After reading some of the posts in this thread, it seems like there are some who will believe almost anything the bourgeois news says about the current situation.

[metalero]

Originally posted by Luís [email protected] 10 2005, 04:21 PM

This somehow reminds me of "el caracazo" in Venezuela back in 1989, when violent protests and rioting that began in shanty towns spread to the capital and other towns across the country.

But the Caracazo had a clear political target: Carlos Andrés Perez had been elected President of Venezuela on an anti-neoliberal program, and, once in charge, started implementing strongly neoliberal policies. So the Caracazo demanded his ousting. The measures they opposed were very clear, the measures they wanted implemented were quite clear also (in fact, they were Andrés Perez&#39;s electoral platform&#33;).

The situation in France is completely different; the movement seems aimless. Maybe this is due to a biased press coverage, but... Djehuti&#39;s post makes me think not.

Luís Henrique
truth, "el caracazo" was a reaction to the neo-liberal policies, but there was no political organization behind it; It was totally spontaneous and it ended in riots, looting and extreme repression by security forces. It certainly did not achieve the ousting of Carlos Andres Perez, but it did contribute to spread consciousness among the working class, specially about the neoliberal illusion made by the bourgeois.

[Rojo]

After reading some of the posts in this thread, it seems like there are some who will believe almost anything the bourgeois news says about the current situation.

No one here believes everything that they hear on the news. If they did they would be capitalists and would be posting in the OI forum. Just because people don&#39;t support the riots doesn&#39;t mean that they&#39;re captalists.

[kurt]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2005, 06:11 AM

After reading some of the posts in this thread, it seems like there are some who will believe almost anything the bourgeois news says about the current situation.

No one here believes everything that they hear on the news. If they did they would be capitalists and would be posting in the OI forum. Just because people don&#39;t support the riots doesn&#39;t mean that they&#39;re captalists.
No but it clearly shows how they&#39;ve allowed bourgeois ideology to seep into their though process.

[*PRC*Kensei]

Originally posted by Ownthink+Nov 11 2005, 01:45 AM--> (Ownthink @ Nov 11 2005, 01:45 AM)
[email protected] 10 2005, 07:55 PM

Now they can&#39;t get to work.

What a pitty&#33; :lol:

Poor workers can&#39;t go to work to get exploited, they will be so damn angry, because as we all know, most people just LOVE their job.
Yeah, that whole part about providing for their family just eluded you, didn&#39;t it?


Your unintelligence amazes me. [/b]
Yo people,

i do not agree with this guy, but lets pleace not create a one vs all situation here.
Just keep calm ownthink, we got your point now. end o discussion.
:)

[*PRC*Kensei]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2005, 12:25 AM
I don&#39;t know, maybe I am being stupid. But all I was saying is that France doesn&#39;t have any laws against discrimination in jobs.
Np.

Doesnt mather if france got such laws or not (i think they do) it&#39;s just about suburbs.. there should be any poor neighberhoods in the world, unless anybody lives in them...

[Edelweiss]

all anti-riot fools, please see http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=42653

[Left-wingist]

This song fits this event quite well if you ask me.

Against Me&#33;-Burn

Beautiful to live in poverty
Just to spite what they&#39;re selling
Take a thousand hits to prove the rest and I&#39;ll move in
Millimeters still won&#39;t mean shit against well-done subversion

Fathers of invention will one day turn in their graves
When their own sons and daughters
Manifest destiny into a lesson to others
Sent away my crippled, let the old ones catagorize their deathcamps, they&#39;re all dead


It&#39;ll burn burn burn
Like they did to the Anarchists at their stakes
And it&#39;ll burn burn burn
Like the histories they stole from us
One day patriotic thugs will dance to songs of justice
And cringe, and rack guns of shame


Well it may take a team of well-rounded hoodlums
In full riot gear to unrest objection
A well-controlled media to pick out our terrorists
When beaurocrats start dying from cancer

There are already businessmen who&#39;ll market bottled water
And purified aerosol solution, guess who&#39;s their target
Seven approaching a measure off the map
And you&#39;ll see me dance in the street once again


And it&#39;ll burn burn burn like they did to the Anarchists
And it&#39;ll burn burn burn like the histories they stole from us
One day patriotic thugs will dance to songs of justice
And give apologies for immeasurably acted perfection

[Enragé]

i heard on the news that there were indications that massive riots are being planned for this weekend.

Also, sarkozy himself said this could just be a lull (sp?) in the unrest

[Enragé]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2005, 09:40 PM

you really do have a bourgeois mentality

I don&#39;t know what that means, but my words have been confirmed by recent events. For example, a poll taken shows that 73% of French back the state of emergency and curfew. So now after nearly two weeks of mindless rioting, we are seeing the backlash against Muslims and Arabs. Already, they&#39;ve decided to deport over 100 of them out of the country. Instead of the rioters focusing their anger on symbols of the state and in a more constructive fashion, they thought it would be fun to attack other ordinary people&#39;s property. Now, the majority are against them, for good reasons.

How can a revolution succeed when the overwhelming majority of the people are backing the government?
it means that you, whilst wanting to create a new and better world, perhaps even through revolution, you submit yourself to bourgeois morality.

And no there&#39;s not a backlash. Most certainly not against muslims and arabs because this is NOT about religion, nor ethnicity, even CNN had to admit people of all "races" were participating in the riots.

There was an anti-riot demonstration today in Paris...you know how many showed up? 300&#33;&#33;&#33; Laughable is what it is.

Also, "they" have not decided anything, the government did so. You are equating the french people with the government.

I&#39;d like to know where you got those figures (73%) from, i havent seen it anywhere. And even if its true, can you blame them?? All they see on tv is mindless propaganda, i know, i can watch french tv from over here. All they show is brave citizens preparing to combat the unrest, politicians nagging about shit, and some morons getting fire extinguishers from the mayor to put out fires.

And yes i agree the riots should be more focused, but that isnt the point here.

Bear in mind this is NOT a revolution, this is civil unrest caused by capitalism, which MIGHT trigger revolution.

[Enragé]

riots now reported in the center of Lyon

first time ever there have been riots in the center of any major city

[Commie Rat]

Tonight tune into the 60 minutes special on how we must crackdown on muslim extemeists

bah humbug
<_<

[rioters bloc]

60 minutes? wasnt that on 2 hours ago?

[Commie Rat]

Yeah, but i only just got on to post it

[rioters bloc]

:P screw you i got excited for nothing :P

[Commie Rat]

bahahhahahahah
60 minutesis reactionary trash anyways
nearly as bad as ACA
<_<

[Ownthink]

"Seventy-one percent of French people do not believe
President Jacques Chirac can solve the social problems that fueled the riots, according to a poll published Sunday by the Le Journal du Dimanche newspaper.

However, nearly a quarter think far-right leader Jean-Marie Le Pen can. Le Pen has seized on the violence to promote his National Front party&#39;s "zero immigration" platform."

Just great&#33; Tons of good these did for the poor Immigrants&#33;

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051113/ap_on_...nce_rioting_fr1 (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051113/ap_on_re_eu/france_rioting_fr1)

[black magick hustla]

I think some of you find the bourgeosie news as some kind of UTTER PERVERSION OF TRUTH.

Bourgeosie news are generally right in many things, you just need to see through the bullshit rhetoric. That is easy when you already know what the bourgeosie is about.

However, saying the bourgeosie always lies is bullshit. I am pretty sure that THE BURNING OF SCHOOLS AND NURSERIES wasn&#39;t a PROPAGANDA LIE.

So stop with your BOURGEOSIE HEARSAY LOL .

[Rojo]

i totally agree comrade&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33; i&#39;ve been thinking the same thing for a long time. We&#39;ve got to analyse the bourgeoise news instead of immediatly denouncing it.

[*PRC*Kensei]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2005, 07:41 PM
I think some of you find the bourgeosie news as some kind of UTTER PERVERSION OF TRUTH.

Bourgeosie news are generally right in many things, you just need to see through the bullshit rhetoric. That is easy when you already know what the bourgeosie is about.

However, saying the bourgeosie always lies is bullshit. I am pretty sure that THE BURNING OF SCHOOLS AND NURSERIES wasn&#39;t a PROPAGANDA LIE.

So stop with your BOURGEOSIE HEARSAY LOL .
the burning of nurseries whas i think...

anyway, heard some great right-wing comments on burning schools:
"and what about the children, did they have to die for nothing in that fire"
--&#62; it would have been same damn naughty children if they where at school at 2 o clock midnight in the middle of the vacantion :D :lol:

some people just dont think before they comment :P

[*PRC*Kensei]

make this stuff sticky dammit, we got 8 pages + the news keep coming + the riots havnt ended jet &#33;

[Luís Henrique]

At this point, they could have had Sarkozy&#39;s head on a plate, if they were able to demand it.

Luís Henrique

[*PRC*Kensei]

Riots still going on...

but i think nature will stop them: it&#39;s getting to colt to be out on the streets all night...

wait t&#39;ll spring... something is gonna explode in europa then, mark that.

[Luís Henrique]

Originally posted by *PRC*[email protected] 20 2005, 11:34 AM
Riots still going on...

but i think nature will stop them: it&#39;s getting to colt to be out on the streets all night...

wait t&#39;ll spring... something is gonna explode in europa then, mark that.
I&#39;m sure it was much colder in Moscow in november, 1917.

Luís Henrique

[Martin Blank]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2005, 02:46 PM
I think some of you find the bourgeosie news as some kind of UTTER PERVERSION OF TRUTH.

Bourgeosie news are generally right in many things, you just need to see through the bullshit rhetoric. That is easy when you already know what the bourgeosie is about.

However, saying the bourgeosie always lies is bullshit. I am pretty sure that THE BURNING OF SCHOOLS AND NURSERIES wasn&#39;t a PROPAGANDA LIE.

So stop with your BOURGEOSIE HEARSAY LOL .
There is a certain truth to what is being said here. There have been a number of instances where the left has dismissed facts that happen to be presented in the bourgeois media because of the source. The most vivid of these examples was the skepticism shown by large sections of the left toward the initial reports of the Holocaust during WWII; most of those groups thought it was mere propaganda until the documentary evidence began to be found.

Take what the bourgeois media says with a grain of salt, but don&#39;t automatically reject everything reported.

Miles

[drain.you]

Dislike the way the riots have almost completely faded from British news. And I agree that the cold weather will stop them, I mean, I&#39;m in England going to college wearing two t-shirts, a big coat, two pairs of socks,etc and I&#39;m still freezing. The weather sucks.

How are the riots now compared to when they began?

[Correa]

I just found this message issued by Youth For International Socialism (http://www.newyouth.com/). I wonder if it ever reached the French?

A Message to the Youth of France
By Karl Belin for Youth For International Socialism


"Where force is necessary, there it must be applied boldly, decisively and completely. But one must know the limitations of force; one must know when to blend force with a maneuver, a blow with an agreement."
- Leon Trotsky

As the revolt of the French youth in and around major cities throughout the country continues we, the revolutionary Marxist youth of the United States, look on with great anticipation.

We empathize greatly with our French brothers and sisters who have had enough. We too feel the antagonisms of poverty, unemployment, sub-par "education", etc. We also know the importance of organization and perspective. We emphasize to our French comrades that, in order to really change the systematic exploitation of the French and world working class, they must organize with a clear perspective. The youth and workers are the only ones that can overturn this system which exploits them. These riots have shown that they have that power.

This massive uprising has shown just how afraid the bourgeois establishment is of power in the hands of the youth and workers. It has also proven that the youth and workers have the ability to seize that power and become virtually unstoppable.

We urge our comrades in France not to lose this energy&#33; We also urge them to apply to this energetic movement a clear class perspective, wherein the French working class and poor call for a planned society under a workers&#39; democracy.