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Wasted7
4th November 2005, 04:53
Ive heard alot of talk about relating the direction of the US to a path to Facism (not Nazism though mind you).

But is this really true or is it something to get people worked up about.

Ive heard their is a lot of similiarity between WW2 Italy and America in economic terms in relation to corporatism.

If you could clear this up for me it would be great.

Un-Amäraкin Bastard
4th November 2005, 05:58
Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2005, 04:53 AM
Ive heard alot of talk about relating the direction of the US to a path to Facism (not Nazism though mind you).

But is this really true or is it something to get people worked up about.

Ive heard their is a lot of similiarity between WW2 Italy and America in economic terms in relation to corporatism.

If you could clear this up for me it would be great.
I have heard this at another forum. T'was a list of fascist ideals and comparisons to American ideals...very scary...one of them involved extreme patriotism and the distribution of propaganda and patriotic material...there were many, many, more, but I'll try to dig that up...

[EDIT] Here ya go...


1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism - Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.

Patriotic mottos/slogans: "God Bless America", "best damn nation in the world" and "One nation under God" are used week in week out by politicians.
Symbols: Bald eagles I suppose.
Songs: Star Spangled Banner, America the Beautiful, My land tis of thee, The Pledge of Alleigance.
Flags: America is the only place I know where you get flags hanging out uniformally in front of every residence (in certain places). As for it being on clothing, there's certainly demand. And the amount of concerts on TV where there's a group of 50+ people wearing US clothing.


2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights - Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.

It's all very familiar, isn't it? Apart from certain instances of POWs in Iraq there has been little of the above, but the US did violate the Geneva convention by showing Saddam Hussain on not only national but international TV. Not to mention the police state London has become (though this has no bearings on the US.)

3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause - The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.

"You're either with us or you're with the terrorists."- George W. Bush

Is he perhaps trying to unify everyone against a perceived common threat: terrorists etc.?

4. Supremacy of the Military - Even when there are widespread
domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.

Well, $400billion goes into the US militiary fund every year. That's over half the world's militiary budget ($750bn). The domestic agenda is, however, in fairly good condition. As for the militiary being glamourised, the "Support our Troops" magnets are the tip of the iceberg.

5. Rampant Sexism - The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Divorce, abortion and homosexuality are suppressed and the state is represented as the ultimate guardian of the family institution.

Despite being slightly better than some - the US has a very low percentage of females in it's legislature; 14.0%. While this sounds terrible, bear in mind there isn't a country in the world with more than 45%, and there are two other developed nations with under 20% (UK: 17.3%, France: 11.7%)

Of course divorce is frowned upon, but so far as I know there are no government limits on it. Homosexuality is oppressed in the US more than any other developed nation; and abortion laws vary.

6. Controlled Mass Media - Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.

The US has a good freedom of the press index, 4.00, and so 24th equal in the world with Belgium. This may seem bad at first, but considering the small differences between the top 50 it's negligable. Source.


7. Obsession with National Security - Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.

"...Need for a stronger national defence" was cited as one of Bush's original issues. The government spin doctors managed to manipulate public opinion for support of the Iraq War using 9/11 and the fear it brought about as leverage.

8. Religion and Government are Intertwined - Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.

As shown in the link in this topic, many high up US government officials - including presidents (Regan, Bush Sr., Bush Jr.) all use Christianity to push their issues. This includes war - which Christianity is "diametrically opposed to".

"You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' But I say to you, Do not resist one who is evil. But if any one strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also; and if any one would sue you and take your coat, let him have your cloak as well; and if any one forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles" - Jesus, Matthew 5:38:45

9. Corporate Power is Protected - The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.

Note that Bush's campaigns were funded by texas oil companies originally, and in turn Bush left the Kyoto (among other things).

10. Labor Power is Suppressed - Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed.

This is not evident in the US.

11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts - Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts and letters is openly attacked.

Neither this...

12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment - Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.

While national police do have a lot of power (thanks to Bush's Patriot act), it isn't comparable to that in many eastern countries. It falls somewhere between EU countries and "real" fascist dictatorships. Let it also be noted that two thirds of students supposedly think it's illegal to burn the flag, and others think the US government should be allowed to censor the internet.

13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption - Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.

Apart from the dubious Florida election results from 2000*, there's very little of this to be seen.

*In the 2000 presidential election, Florida, the key state, was governed by George W. Bush's brother. There was no cheating as such, but it was made significantly more difficult to vote for Gore than for Bush.

14. Fraudulent Elections - Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.

There has been some proof of the Bush elections being fraudulent, but nothing conclusive. Other than the rampant, illegal, "scrubbing" of 58,100 Florida voters at Gore vs Bush, and the inconclusive numbers of votes out of Ohio last year, (one county had 550 registered voters and counted 8,000 votes for Bush), there isn't much more evidence.

So arguably anywhere between 3 and 11 of the pillars are evident. Quite worrying, no?

Wasted7
5th November 2005, 00:11
Cheers for that I must have missed that thread.

Un-Amäraкin Bastard
5th November 2005, 00:17
Originally posted by [email protected] 5 2005, 12:11 AM
Cheers for that I must have missed that thread.
Ah, t'was on another forum, you probably haven't to it, so you didn't really "miss" it...

Pandii
5th November 2005, 03:16
Thankyou for that link Un-amarakin. Its great to see you've been researching :) Also, I let you know that it is not only America that is headed inthis direction. Our Prime Minister is so far up Bush's ass that it isnt funny, and not only that, but it is partially mandatory that his head stay there, because so much of our GDP is from exporting to the USA. Its horrible to know, yet it still happens. Its the type of information that makes you want to go and *smash* *shit*etcetc. Well, hope you understand it more now :)
Pandora_

Un-Amäraкin Bastard
5th November 2005, 03:42
Originally posted by ||PandorA||@Nov 5 2005, 03:16 AM
Thankyou for that link Un-amarakin. Its great to see you've been researching :) Also, I let you know that it is not only America that is headed inthis direction. Our Prime Minister is so far up Bush's ass that it isnt funny, and not only that, but it is partially mandatory that his head stay there, because so much of our GDP is from exporting to the USA. Its horrible to know, yet it still happens. Its the type of information that makes you want to go and *smash* *shit*etcetc. Well, hope you understand it more now :)
Pandora_
I understood to a certain degree that other countries were following it, particularly Britain, but you have made me understand it more...that is one of those things where you have to make a choice that you shouldn't have to make...

Jimmie Higgins
5th November 2005, 04:38
I actually don't think that right now the US is headed towards fascism. That's not to say it isn't a possibility, but if conditions stay more or less the same, then there won't be fascism.

Fascism happens when normal bourgoise democracy isn't enough for the ruling class and they need extra-extreeme measures in order to maintain or increase their hold over society.

If there was an economic collapse or something or a sudden upsurge in working class struggles, or anything else that would harm the ruling class's ability to rule, then they might turn towards outright fascism, but in the meantime, they are able to rule fine and keep workers down without such extreeme measures such as a fascist government.

THere are elements in the US that could lead to fascism if there was an economic collape. I think the minutemen are definately a proto-fascist organization that we need to keep close watch on. If the economy crashed, the capitalists might find immigration as an easy scapegoat and use grassroots thug-movements to argue that what will help american workers is locking up or kicking out non-native workers so that native workers could get all the jobs available. This is happening on a small scale right now, but since capitalism as a whole isn't threatened, I don't think they (the ruling class) see the need to take on such a risky strategy which might end up backfireing.

As far as similarities between the US and pre-fascist Italy: the US is the dominaent power in the world, Italy was a underdeveloped group of provinces. Fascism in Italy was a way to rapidly untite these provences (which is in the intrests of business - like how France and Germany needed to unify in order to allow growth in business) and organize society which would allow Italy to become a major Industrial state.

THe US ruling class is already very much in controll of society and can do most of what it wants to through "legal" channels. The only time the US could have become fascist was during the great depression (when there was actually a planned coup attempt) because the ruling class was rapidly loosing it's ability to maintain the social order and capitalists were loosing power to the union movements. In such a senerio where the alternative may be a worker's revolution, then the US ruling class will want to adopt and champion fascism as a way to keep power.

Wiesty
5th November 2005, 05:28
america, already thinks themselve to be superior to others mostly, because of economical reasons, wealth etc. and they destroy stuff that could be any threat to them, but becoming a full blown fascist country i can't see happening, they are hated enough as it is, if they became fascist, there'd to many countries just willing to kick some yankee ass.

Guerrilla22
5th November 2005, 06:43
The US government has already put up a concentration camp in Guantanamo Bay, more to follow.

Un-Amäraкin Bastard
5th November 2005, 07:10
Originally posted by [email protected] 5 2005, 06:43 AM
The US government has already put up a concentration camp in Guantanamo Bay, more to follow.
There are 400 Middle-Eastern people being held there. The warden was questioned about how many in there may have done something to do with terrorism. The warden replied, "Oh, I don't know, maybe 50 of them...". So, there are ~350 people being denied their guaranteed rights for speculation and their skin color/look/culture. "Guilty by suspicion".

I don't believe the U.S. could slip into full-on Fascism unless something major happens, such as the collapse of the dollar/economy, which looks likely if oil begins to run out around 2007 as predicted...but it certainly shows it's slippage from it's original intentions as a nation...I think Vermont should go through with the secession to make a point to the other 20 states pushing secession bills...