World Can't Wait Protest Photos

[Free Palestine]

The following are photos from the Rally/March/Demo at Congress and Church streets in Tucson I attended Nov. 2nd. A feeder march of a few hundred, mostly students, started on the UA campus and arrived at the federal building at about noon to join those already gathered in the plaza there. Chanting continued for a half hour or so and then various speakers talked for a couple hours.

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This kid had the coolest teacher, a teacher who took his kids to see first hand the empowering nature of direct action.

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This picture is my favorite. Some of the RCPers there climbed a statue of Teddy Roosevelt at the federal building downtown and put a big red flag in his hand.

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Grandma getting her protest on.

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One of the Freepers who infiltrated the demo.

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What would a Zapatista do?

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[Free Palestine]

(Wouldn't let me put them all in one post)

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[KC]

What does this accomplish?

First, Bush isn't the problem.

Second, protesting doesn't accomplish anything when it isn't the time for it. The time for protesting is when the majority is on your side. This clearly isn't the case.

Seriously, what does this accomplish?

[somebodywhowantedtoleaveandnotcomeback]

Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2005, 06:36 AM
Bush isn't the problem.
Bush stands symbol for the problem, by protesting against Bush you symbolize protest against the problem (at least I mean, this problem, being the Republicans, neocons and such.)

[ack]

Originally posted by RedFaction+Nov 4 2005, 11:59 AM--> (RedFaction @ Nov 4 2005, 11:59 AM)
[email protected] 4 2005, 06:36 AM
Bush isn't the problem.
Bush stands symbol for the problem, by protesting against Bush you symbolize protest against the problem (at least I mean, this problem, being the Republicans, neocons and such.) [/b]
Rock on.
Bush is the puppet of Dick Cheney and Karl Rove.

[Tungsten]

'Stop the war on women'? Have I missed something?

[Militant]

I like the homosexual pride rainbows. TWCW was setup by the RCP, right? And aren't they against homosexuality?

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by Lazar+--> (Lazar)What does this accomplish?[/b]

The purpose of public protest is always to break the conspiracy of silence and the image of united support for the government's policies and personalities.

It's not "revolution" although, in some limited and extreme circumstances, it has led to that.

Tucson, Arizona, is a small city not particularly well-known for an active left. I think it's quite significant that a demonstration of this size took place there.


Originally posted by [email protected]
'Stop the war on women'? Have I missed something?

You mean besides the last couple of decades?


BR-PCC
I like the homosexual pride rainbows. TWCW was set up by the RCP, right? And aren't they against homosexuality?

They used to be...but not any more, they say.

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

[KC]

Bush stands symbol for the problem, by protesting against Bush you symbolize protest against the problem (at least I mean, this problem, being the Republicans, neocons and such.)


These aren't the problems. Capitalism is the problem. To say that Bush, or even the neocons, are the problem is to distract from the real problem, which is capitalism. We should be putting our effort into that problem and not Bush, or the neocons, or anything else.



Rock on.
Bush is the puppet of Dick Cheney and Karl Rove.

Who cares?



The purpose of public protest is always to break the conspiracy of silence and the image of united support for the government's policies and personalities.


I see protest as isolating the protestors from the rest of society, unless they have support of the majority of society.

The best course of action to take right now would be education. To educate the people as much as possible about communism and about the lies they've been told of it. Hand out flyers, set up community discussion groups, spread the word. This is much more effective and this is what we need to do right now.

As the material conditions develop, the majority will come in line with the communists and this is when protesting should take place. This is protesting as action and not a symbolic gesture. This is when it is needed. Not sooner.

[Free Palestine]

TWCW was setup by the RCP, right?

Yeah, supporters of the RCP helped initiate it.


And aren't they against homosexuality?

They reformed their position on homosexuality in 2001. The RCP is fully accepting of homosexuals.


These aren't the problems. Capitalism is the problem. To say that Bush, or even the neocons, are the problem is to distract from the real problem, which is capitalism. We should be putting our effort into that problem and not Bush, or the neocons, or anything else.

I don’t believe that the anti-war movement could not survive if it demands such purity of its adherents. You must realize that many people, including myself to an extent, want to build a party, vanguard or otherwise. This means reaching out for bourgeois support (with a more moderate approach), which is acceptable in Marxist parlance.


I see protest as isolating the protestors from the rest of society, unless they have support of the majority of society.

The overwhelming majority of people who saw us on the street took our flyers, honked or otherwise openly expressed their support for the event and hundreds of them joined the demonstration themselves. The feeder march started out at only a couple hundred, by the end maybe 700ish altogether came. Pretty good for Tucson in the middle of a work day.


The best course of action to take right now would be education. To educate the people as much as possible about communism and about the lies they've been told of it. Hand out flyers, set up community discussion groups, spread the word. This is much more effective and this is what we need to do right now.

As ineffective as protests may be, I still attend. I see it as all the more reason to go, get the media to look at something new instead of the usual propaganda and disinformation broadcasted on the Orwellian media. Also, I did see people getting out there and networking. People doing clever things like distributing union literature to workers...for instance, white collar, or retail, workers are horribly unorganized and divided amongst themselves in what is quickly becoming the new American industry. They were made aware thier union is Industrial Workers Union 660.


The time for protesting is when the majority is on your side. This clearly isn't the case.

"U.S. President George W. Bush's approval rating dropped to its lowest level ever, according to an Associated Press/Ipsos poll conducted after a key White house aide was indicted and another withdrew as Supreme Court nominee... Only 37 percent of Americans surveyed Oct. 31 to Nov. 2 said they approved of the way Bush is handling his job as president... That's down from 39 percent at the beginning of October and the lowest since the AP/Ipsos poll was first taken in Dec. 2003. " (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000087&sid=anbMHAfJN5jM&refer=top_world_news)

[somebodywhowantedtoleaveandnotcomeback]

Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2005, 06:27 PM


Bush stands symbol for the problem, by protesting against Bush you symbolize protest against the problem (at least I mean, this problem, being the Republicans, neocons and such.)


These aren't the problems. Capitalism is the problem. To say that Bush, or even the neocons, are the problem is to distract from the real problem, which is capitalism. We should be putting our effort into that problem and not Bush, or the neocons, or anything else.
Please, if you are to respond to my post and quote me, quote the entire text that is relevant to your answer, instead of ripping it out of it's context. I clearly stated, and I quote myself:
(at least I mean, this problem, being the Republicans, neocons and such.)
Which clearly indicates that I was talking about this one particular problem, and not diabolizing Bush to be the greatest problem on earth. That's too much honour even for him.

[somebodywhowantedtoleaveandnotcomeback]

Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2005, 06:27 PM
The best course of action to take right now would be education. To educate the people as much as possible about communism and about the lies they've been told of it. Hand out flyers, set up community discussion groups, spread the word. This is much more effective and this is what we need to do right now.

As the material conditions develop, the majority will come in line with the communists and this is when protesting should take place. This is protesting as action and not a symbolic gesture. This is when it is needed. Not sooner.
Protesting is the best way to "spread the word" and hand out flyers. When people see howmany people are on our side and are willing to join us, they will get interested themselves and then we can set up discussion groups, not the other way round. You can't discuss when there's noone there can you?

[flyby]

hmmmm.....think of the logic of this:

the army isn't the problem, capitalism is the problem
the government isn't the problem, capitalism is the problem
the wars of aggression arent' the proble, capitalism is the problem
leaving people to die in New Orleans isn't the prob, capitalism is the problem
replacing evolution with religion isn't the prob, capitalism is the problem
the promotion of wealth and jailing of the poor isn't the problem, capitalism is the problem
police murder isn't the problem, capitalism is the problem
the Bush regime isn't the problem, capitalism is the problem
the stealing of elections isn't a problem, capitalism is the problem

and so on.

This whole logic is wrong. It misses the actual relationship between the underlying system of capitalism, and the outrages it perpetrates.

And if you follow it through, you are stuck with a mechanical, limp, dogmatic rap that strips the people of reality.

In fact capitalism is the problem because it causes all these outrages (and more!) And because it will continue to cause such outrages, war crimews and oppression until it is overthrown.

capitalism is a system that brings monsters like Bush and Cheney and rumsfeld to power.

If you separate these things out mechanically and dogmatically, you will never build or even recognize see a movement for revolution.

[flyby]

i'm amused by the idea that the time for protesting is when the majority is on your side.

More in the same vein:

The time for talking is when people already understand what you are about to say.

The time to seize power is when you already have power.

The time to hand out leaflets is when everyone already knows about the event.

The time to start a movement is when everyone is already in it.

the time to dedicate your life to change is when everyone else has already given theirs.


let's be clear: anyone who thinks this does not understand the crucial need for a vanguard! And the need to be in it!

[DanRev]

Protesting against bush, while may not change anything, shows that people are not happy with the system, and if bush steps down, the people dont want the same things repeating themselves under the regime of the new president. Bush is a symbol of injustice, Protesting against bush is protesting against injustice.


I agree though... Even if they do get rid of bush, there's another hundred in the queue for the white house.

Still nice to see people out TRYING to make a change though

[KC]

"U.S. President George W. Bush's approval rating dropped to its lowest level ever, according to an Associated Press/Ipsos poll conducted after a key White house aide was indicted and another withdrew as Supreme Court nominee... Only 37 percent of Americans surveyed Oct. 31 to Nov. 2 said they approved of the way Bush is handling his job as president... That's down from 39 percent at the beginning of October and the lowest since the AP/Ipsos poll was first taken in Dec. 2003. "


I was speaking of communism and not this protest.



Please, if you are to respond to my post and quote me, quote the entire text that is relevant to your answer, instead of ripping it out of it's context. I clearly stated, and I quote myself:

I did quote you entirely. I did respond to your entire quote. I don't know what you're talking about when you claim that I didn't.


hmmmm.....think of the logic of this:

the army isn't the problem, capitalism is the problem
the government isn't the problem, capitalism is the problem
the wars of aggression arent' the proble, capitalism is the problem
leaving people to die in New Orleans isn't the prob, capitalism is the problem
replacing evolution with religion isn't the prob, capitalism is the problem
the promotion of wealth and jailing of the poor isn't the problem, capitalism is the problem
police murder isn't the problem, capitalism is the problem
the Bush regime isn't the problem, capitalism is the problem
the stealing of elections isn't a problem, capitalism is the problem

and so on.

This whole logic is wrong. It misses the actual relationship between the underlying system of capitalism, and the outrages it perpetrates.

And if you follow it through, you are stuck with a mechanical, limp, dogmatic rap that strips the people of reality.

In fact capitalism is the problem because it causes all these outrages (and more!) And because it will continue to cause such outrages, war crimews and oppression until it is overthrown.

capitalism is a system that brings monsters like Bush and Cheney and rumsfeld to power.

If you separate these things out mechanically and dogmatically, you will never build or even recognize see a movement for revolution.

So why not go after the root of the problem?


i'm amused by the idea that the time for protesting is when the majority is on your side.

More in the same vein:

The time for talking is when people already understand what you are about to say.

The time to seize power is when you already have power.

The time to hand out leaflets is when everyone already knows about the event.

The time to start a movement is when everyone is already in it.

the time to dedicate your life to change is when everyone else has already given theirs.


Protesting as a means of action is used to show and consolidate the power of the people against its rulers. When protesting as a means of action happens, this is the beginning of a revolution. When it isn't the time for protesting - when the majority isn't ready for the change - I don't see protesting as very effective.


let's be clear: anyone who thinks this does not understand the crucial need for a vanguard! And the need to be in it!

Fuck your vanguard, fuck your leader.


Protesting against bush, while may not change anything, shows that people are not happy with the system, and if bush steps down, the people dont want the same things repeating themselves under the regime of the new president. Bush is a symbol of injustice, Protesting against bush is protesting against injustice.

It shows that people aren't happy with Bush and not the system. Big difference.

[Militant]

Originally posted by redstar2000+Nov 4 2005, 05:18 PM--> (redstar2000 @ Nov 4 2005, 05:18 PM)

BR-PCC
I like the homosexual pride rainbows. TWCW was set up by the RCP, right? And aren't they against homosexuality?

They used to be...but not any more, they say.

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif [/b]
It's nice to know they no longer consider it a "bougiouse indulgence".

And I've been proted to BR-PCC (I wish), thanks redstar! ;)

[enigma2517]

The time for talking is when people already understand what you are about to say.

The time to seize power is when you already have power.

The time to hand out leaflets is when everyone already knows about the event.

The time to start a movement is when everyone is already in it.

the time to dedicate your life to change is when everyone else has already given theirs.


let's be clear: anyone who thinks this does not understand the crucial need for a vanguard! And the need to be in it!



I can (and do) do this.

I don't need to be party of a permanent hierarchy to do so.

If your "line" is so god damn "advanced" and your "leader" is so right about everything, then why do you need coercion?

The means certainetly influence the ends and there is no space in the communist movement for any of your veiled elitism.

Are there going to be portions of society that are more class conscious and familiar with communist theory than their peers. Of course there will be. And if these people really know what they're talking about, then they can make convincing enough arguments for people to follow them...VOLUNTARILY.

You cannot "shape history" with the might of your dialects, nor can you "direct the masses". All you can do is present the evidence in the most convincing form possible.

Good job on the protest.

Fuck you for everything else.

[Tungsten]

redstar2000


Originally posted by Tungston
'Stop the war on women'? Have I missed something?

You mean besides the last couple of decades?
I remember Bush saying something about a 'war on terrorism', but nothing about any war on women, nor have I heard anyone else calling for or declaring such a war. Do you think you could list the details?

[rioters bloc]

great photos

it's interesting to see the similarities/differences between protests depending on cause, location, whatever.. in terms of demographics and creativity etc. speaking purely visually of course.

[Ownthink]

Originally posted by Tungsten+Nov 4 2005, 05:21 PM--> (Tungsten @ Nov 4 2005, 05:21 PM) redstar2000


Tungston
'Stop the war on women'? Have I missed something?

You mean besides the last couple of decades?
I remember Bush saying something about a 'war on terrorism', but nothing about any war on women, nor have I heard anyone else calling for or declaring such a war. Do you think you could list the details? [/b]
See: Unequal Pay, Domestic Violence against women, The last few hundred years.

Oh yeah, a good one for you too is "Common Sense"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_sense

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by Lazar+--> (Lazar)I see protest as isolating the protesters from the rest of society, unless they have support of the majority of society.[/b]

Well, we are "isolated" from that portion of society which supports the Empire. Do you imagine that there's any way to "hide that" other than be completely silent?

Granted, people who think that protests "will change the world" all by themselves are being quite naive.

But they provide a "locus" for gatherings of the discontented...a way that, in some circumstances, encourages further resistance to the despotism of capital.

I would imagine that people in Tucson are feeling pretty "up" about their demonstration and are getting ready to "do more stuff".

That's a good thing!


flyby
let's be clear: anyone who thinks this does not understand the crucial need for a vanguard! And the need to be in it!

Let's be clear -- this is what usually happens when a "vanguard party" does something good and it's successful.

They get "the big head" and start thinking that "nothing will happen" "unless" they are present to "lead it".

If this unfortunate attitude emerges and persists in Tucson, then it's likely in a year or two that no one there will have anything good to say about the RCP.

It's the "same old story". :(

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

[ComradeOm]

Just looking at the two halves of your post there redstar and it raises an interesting point. Let me just throw this out there.

Perhaps "vanguardism" is a by-product of this isolation from society that rejects their ideals. Like you said, these activists in Tucson are probably feeling pretty elated right now, a decent rally to does that, but they’ll look around and see that the vast majority of the populace do not support them. You have a small group that are politically isolated from society and convinced that their ideals are true.

Now is it at all possible that these people will start to consider themselves as part of the vanguard? After all, they’re awake and they’re active, its their duty to try and open the eyes of their colleagues and friends. By simply doing that they automatically assume the role of the "elite" vanguard. Human nature strikes again.

In short, what I'm getting at is that to take on the role of the activist/revolutionary in a politically ignorant society is to be a member of a small, politically active and marginalised party which strives for change. This is very fertile soil for the roots of elitism.

[Tungsten]

Ownthink

See: Unequal Pay, Domestic Violence against women, The last few hundred years.

These are not characteristics of warfare, nor are any of these things legally enforced.

[Ownthink]

Originally posted by [email protected] 5 2005, 09:11 AM
Ownthink

See: Unequal Pay, Domestic Violence against women, The last few hundred years.

These are not characteristics of warfare, nor are any of these things legally enforced.
Well, no shit?

It's a metaphor, dumbass.

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by [email protected] 5 2005, 06:50 AM
Just looking at the two halves of your post there redstar and it raises an interesting point. Let me just throw this out there.

Perhaps "vanguardism" is a by-product of this isolation from society that rejects their ideals. Like you said, these activists in Tucson are probably feeling pretty elated right now, a decent rally to does that, but they’ll look around and see that the vast majority of the populace do not support them. You have a small group that are politically isolated from society and convinced that their ideals are true.

Now is it at all possible that these people will start to consider themselves as part of the vanguard? After all, they’re awake and they’re active, its their duty to try and open the eyes of their colleagues and friends. By simply doing that they automatically assume the role of the "elite" vanguard. Human nature strikes again.

In short, what I'm getting at is that to take on the role of the activist/revolutionary in a politically ignorant society is to be a member of a small, politically active and marginalised party which strives for change. This is very fertile soil for the roots of elitism.
Yes, I think your point is well taken. Elitism does have material roots in social reality; it's not just a product of "perfidy" or "bad intentions".

But "what is to be done" about it? We cannot simply "give up" on any kind of organized struggle against the society that we despise. Nor can we limit ourselves to a purely verbal critique...however important that critique might be.

It seems to me that the focus should be on "the struggle within the movement". The tendency to "become elitist" must be explicitly struggled against. Expressions of elitism must become "politically incorrect" on their face.

You know as well as I that most if not all of the people involved in events like Tucson would simply refuse to accept the expression of racist, sexist, homophobic, etc. sentiments among themselves. Very well, why shouldn't they become equally intolerant of elitist sentiments?

This relates to my own conception of the "communist role" in struggle: our job is to advance and deepen whatever resistance exists and help make it more radical and more intransigent.

That's the very opposite of the Leninist concept of "leading the struggle". It rests instead on our ability to convince people of the usefulness of our ideas in fighting against what they already hate.

I think you are too dismissive of the role of "protests" in building a movement to resist the despotism of capital. Protests are not some kind of "magic bullet" or "holy grail" of social change; they're just tools which may be better or worse, useful or not useful in particular situations, etc.

We should neither romanticize them nor despise them as "not really revolutionary". We should evaluate them in a serious way.

And my evaluation of the protest in Tucson is, at this point, quite positive.

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[Ultra-Violence]

i aksed my self the same question at the last 2 demonstrations i went 2 the first one was th police brutality protest and also the november 2 one and i said 2 my self what does this accomplish seriously? its just an excuse for white liberal yuppies to get together. we should seriously take action around our commmunities and start from their and build a foundation towards revolution. and it was desapointing to see so little poeple here in L.A at the police brutality and november 2 protest. it doesnt accopmlish anything!

nice to se your back redstar! good to know that your alive. and id like to know whayt really happend thier in the south!