Discrimnation of People of Religion

[themaskedavenger]

OK this has been bothering me for a few months now, and was actually why i stopped coming to this website for a while.

YOu people claim to be open minded and accepting of all peoples, but the second someone says they believe in a religion you automatically downsize them and make them feel stupid for believing in a God or Gods.

I just dont understand how you can be so welcoming of everything else and then suddenly throw a book at those who have some sort of a faith.
Now im not saying we should all embrace the religious right or anything, to be honest I hate those fuckers and wish they would just shut the fuck up. But what I am asking is that you do not belittle people just because of their faith.

Personally I keep my religion to myself, i dont bring up unless people come out and ask me about it. Thats due to my personal philosphy which is in my signature.

Also Im not saying you have to Love the church and believe it is the greatest invention on earth, cause its not. I have many problems with the church and its views, but i still believe and I dont let that influence me.

IM just asking to keep an open mind. And if some1 is discussing religion and its pissing you off or whatever, then either change the subject or end the conversation.

I get it, you dont believe in God, but you dont see me throwing Bibles or Qurans or Torahs at you and shouting at you to believe.

Just accept people as who they are, dont beat them into what you want them to become.

[Hegemonicretribution]

Forgetting the existence arguments and all of that for a momeent, there are 2 main reasons that I personally think are fairly representative of negative views of religion.

The first is a problem with the institution of the church. Just as every other institution it will have to be abolished. The history of it and everything to do with it can be forgotten, once again as an institution itself it will simply cease to exist.

The other problem is the notion of "God" itself. "If god did exist, it would be necessaery to abolish him."

Basically no man has power over any other. No leaders, no concept of leaders, totally egallitarian. A being some how above that of others is not an easy concept to reconcile with equality. That is all.

Regardless of the general view, whilst these concepts exist I will defend your right to hold them. I am just looking for a society which is not compatablle with such ideas.

[themaskedavenger]

I agree with you on the destroying of the orgainized church. but thats as far as ill go

[Hegemonicretribution]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2005, 08:20 PM
I agree with you on the destroying of the orgainized church. but thats as far as ill go
That is understandable as you are religious. However I would ask you if you accept at least my second point. Perhaps you have sorted this out for yourself, but I have not yet seen this point addressed.

If God exists as higher than your average dude, then I have to be as opposed to that as a monarch, rich person or someone of a particular race or gender that is seen as "better" or "higher " than you or I.

[themaskedavenger]

God has also given his people Free Will, you can chose to believe or not. As raised a catholic, in the catholic faith, Faith alone cannot send you to heaven, you also need action. So my personal belief is that if you are act good IE, do the right thing: feed your fellow man, clothe the naked, do good deeds, etc, no matter what your belief on God, you should go UP.

But sadly thats just me

[Guerrilla22]

If you are tired of getting pissed on, then quit being a lamb and realize that there is no God and that religion is a tool of the far right to maintain power.

[Hegemonicretribution]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2005, 08:29 PM
God has also given his people Free Will, you can chose to believe or not. As raised a catholic, in the catholic faith, Faith alone cannot send you to heaven, you also need action. So my personal belief is that if you are act good IE, do the right thing: feed your fellow man, clothe the naked, do good deeds, etc, no matter what your belief on God, you should go UP.

But sadly thats just me
I understand what you have said, I have studied, at least to some extent, theology and especially philosophy of religion.

However that comment you made was a response to another question. I wasn't asking why god allows this to happen, which is what I think you answered, but rather how you can hold an ideology based in equality and a religion with a higher entity.

The morality O.K. to some extent perhaps, what are your views on abortion and homosexuality out of interest? Not suggesting you are anti, just interested.

It isn't just you, and it isn't just follwers of god.

[ComradeOm]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2005, 08:29 PM
God has also given his people Free Will, you can chose to believe or not. As raised a catholic, in the catholic faith, Faith alone cannot send you to heaven, you also need action. So my personal belief is that if you are act good IE, do the right thing: feed your fellow man, clothe the naked, do good deeds, etc, no matter what your belief on God, you should go UP.

But sadly thats just me
But as a Catholic those “good works” pretty much include doing whatever the Church says. Rome has never been very compromising on that. So if you are a devout Catholic you will be expected to abstain from pre-martial sex, use contraceptives, hate gays etc etc And all because some lad in a big hat has a direct line to God.

Of course you could always just be a nice guy anyway and hope for the best, but do you really need an excuse to treat people with a bit of respect?

[Hegemonicretribution]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2005, 08:35 PM
If you are tired of getting pissed on, then quit being a lamb and realize that there is no God and that religion is a tool of the far right to maintain power.
If this is what you are sick of TMD I understand, but I am not aggressive here, I am just questioning your position as I welcome anyone to do of any of my positions.

Attacking members in this way is not benifactory to anyone, and will only reinforce beliefs in what they have.

[themaskedavenger]

ok forget this... Im going to go be a Capitalist now and believe in the religious right... OR AM I.

As for homosexuality, personally I don't care what you do in the bedroom it makes no difference to me.

As for abortion, Im still on the fence about. Because it is the woman's right, but what abou the rights of the unborn child. Personally I wouldnt suggest it.

Not necessarily a higher entity, but a higher existence.

If you read earlier you will see that I dont follow exactly what the church mandates. The Church doesnt allow the use contraceptives.

ANd i treat people with respect either way, cause there was a while when i did not believe in God, completely rejected religion and my giving respect for human decency never changed.

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by themaskedavenger
You people claim to be open minded and accepting of all peoples, but the second someone says they believe in a religion you automatically downsize them and make them feel stupid for believing in a God or Gods.

I recommend to you the following posts...

http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php...st&p=1291957868 (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=41834&view=findpost&p=1291957868)

http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php...st&p=1291958278 (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=41834&view=findpost&p=1291958278)

http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php...st&p=1291959165 (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=41834&view=findpost&p=1291959165)


I'm tired of getting pissed on.

Quit hanging out around toilets. :)

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/223.gif

[KC]

YOu people claim to be open minded and accepting of all peoples, but the second someone says they believe in a religion you automatically downsize them and make them feel stupid for believing in a God or Gods.


We are accepting of all peoples. It is ideas that we are selective about. Also, they are stupid for believing in god.



I just dont understand how you can be so welcoming of everything else and then suddenly throw a book at those who have some sort of a faith.

Because it's illogical brainwashed garbage spewed by the bourgeois to maintain power.


Now im not saying we should all embrace the religious right or anything, to be honest I hate those fuckers and wish they would just shut the fuck up. But what I am asking is that you do not belittle people just because of their faith.

I will stop "belittling" people when they stop believing in it. If someone thought the ocean was made out of soda and started drinking it, wouldn't you think they were an idiot?



Personally I keep my religion to myself, i dont bring up unless people come out and ask me about it. Thats due to my personal philosphy which is in my signature.


Religion isn't personal.



Also Im not saying you have to Love the church and believe it is the greatest invention on earth, cause its not. I have many problems with the church and its views, but i still believe and I dont let that influence me.

Whether you realize it or not, your beliefs influence you! Including your belief in god.



IM just asking to keep an open mind. And if some1 is discussing religion and its pissing you off or whatever, then either change the subject or end the conversation.

No.



Just accept people as who they are, dont beat them into what you want them to become.


If we did that then we wouldn't have much of a revolution, now would we?


God has also given his people Free Will, you can chose to believe or not. As raised a catholic, in the catholic faith, Faith alone cannot send you to heaven, you also need action. So my personal belief is that if you are act good IE, do the right thing: feed your fellow man, clothe the naked, do good deeds, etc, no matter what your belief on God, you should go UP.


There is no heaven. Wake up. This is the only life you have. Live it.


If you are tired of getting pissed on, then quit being a lamb and realize that there is no God and that religion is a tool of the far right to maintain power.

Yes.



As for abortion, Im still on the fence about. Because it is the woman's right, but what abou the rights of the unborn child. Personally I wouldnt suggest it.

Unborn children don't have rights. Instead of responding to this, though, read up on the numerous topics on abortion on this forum.

[idealisticcommie]

We are accepting of all peoples. It is ideas that we are selective about. Also, they are stupid for believing in god.

Believing that our empirically defined reality must be the only, and ultimate truth is being closeminded.


Because it's illogical brainwashed garbage spewed by the bourgeois to maintain power.

No, theology is the attempt of profound materialists to empirically circumscribe an essentially transcendental reality; and describe it in a material world.


will stop "belittling" people when they stop believing in it. If someone thought the ocean was made out of soda and started drinking it, wouldn't you think they were an idiot?

I think you're a materialist???!!! When will you step out of your "ideology"?


Religion isn't personal.

Yes, it very much is.


Whether you realize it or not, your beliefs influence you! Including your belief in god.

As I said; Yes, it very much is.


If we did that then we wouldn't have much of a revolution, now would we?
Hearts and minds are more important than yelling or guns. What people believe influences what do. Change their minds, and they will stop doing it. True revolutions come from below; not from above.


There is no heaven. Wake up. This is the only life you have. Live it.

No, you are the materialist; the burden of proof is on you to empirically prove it.

[themaskedavenger]

Religion is incredible personal. I've been on both sides of the fence, athiest and religious.

and you know if you talked to a capitalist, he would say we were the idiots.

The problem with giving people free will is that it means you have to let them make the wrong or bad decisions. And a right decision is a bad decision in someone elses eyes.

Arguing religion with y'all is like arguing socialism with my religious friends. Its just not going to change. And then i tell them the early church could have been seen as an early form of a socialst state and then they get all pissed off.

Im not sayin you have to believe what I believe, just dont shit your pants when you find out someone on the left has a faith.

[KC]

Believing that our empirically defined reality must be the only, and ultimate truth is being closeminded.

And why is that? If we came upon evidence of another reality then I would accept it. To believe in something that has absolutely no basis in truth is completely foolish and ignorant.



No, theology is the attempt of profound materialists to empirically circumscribe an essentially transcendental reality; and describe it in a material world.

And in doing so, they immediately become idealists.



I think you're a materialist???!!! When will you step out of your "ideology"?


Mine has been proven. I don't need to.



Yes, it very much is.

What I meant, but I unfortunately didn't clarify, is that it isn't too personal to be considered differently than any other belief. That is a lie.


Hearts and minds are more important than yelling or guns. What people believe influences what do. Change their minds, and they will stop doing it. True revolutions come from below; not from above.

I don't see how this quote is even relevant.



No, you are the materialist; the burden of proof is on you to empirically prove it.


No it isn't. Do you even know what empiricism is? You made the claim, therefore you have to prove it. I suggest you get some information on empiricism, because you obviously don't know anything about it.




Im not sayin you have to believe what I believe, just dont shit your pants when you find out someone on the left has a faith.

Don't shit your pants when there is a debate about it!

[Redmau5]

And then i tell them the early church could have been seen as an early form of a socialst state and then they get all pissed off.

How exactly was it an early form of socialist state?

[STI]

Dude, you need to realize that there's a difference between "disagreeing with you" and "getting upset". If everybody on this site became personal and angry every time we disagreed with somebody, the site would be empty, because we'd all be in psych wards.

[Guest1]

Why do we not accept religion? Simple. Faith.

Faith is based upon the suspension of rationality.

"I believe because I believe, not because of proof". KABOOM! There goes any reasoned, rational debate, and any point in trying to discuss anything. If you don't have to prove what you say, or base your beliefs on any real, material evidence, then you can justify anything.

Hence, religious warfare and the religious right. They're not just unfortunate blights on the "good" people of faith. They're necessary results of the inherently reactionary and anti-rational nature of any faith.

Materialism is the philosophical school that any progressive person must base themselves on, idealism, which includes any religion, is the natural ally of oppression.

[themaskedavenger]

Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2005, 12:01 PM

And then i tell them the early church could have been seen as an early form of a socialst state and then they get all pissed off.

How exactly was it an early form of socialist state?
everyone lived together in community sharing everytyhing from food to money and their beliefs.

[themaskedavenger]

Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2005, 11:36 AM



Im not sayin you have to believe what I believe, just dont shit your pants when you find out someone on the left has a faith.

Don't shit your pants when there is a debate about it!
But thats the thging, most of the time its not a debate. most of hte time its condescending name calling
"Religion, you believe in religion, stop having a religion you stupid religion man, hey look at the fag who believes in god. hhaha. Stupid stupid man and your stupid god. Hey stupid stop believing in your stupid god who doesnt even exist. hehe. hes so stupid"

Thats what i hear. not a debate

[Ownthink]

Originally posted by themaskedavenger+Nov 8 2005, 02:49 PM--> (themaskedavenger @ Nov 8 2005, 02:49 PM)
[email protected] 4 2005, 11:36 AM



Im not sayin you have to believe what I believe, just dont shit your pants when you find out someone on the left has a faith.

Don't shit your pants when there is a debate about it!
But thats the thging, most of the time its not a debate. most of hte time its condescending name calling
"Religion, you believe in religion, stop having a religion you stupid religion man, hey look at the fag who believes in god. hhaha. Stupid stupid man and your stupid god. Hey stupid stop believing in your stupid god who doesnt even exist. hehe. hes so stupid"

Thats what i hear. not a debate [/b]
If that's what you hear, where the fuck have you been?

[KC]

Please ackowledge CyM's post.

[praxis1966]

CyM covered most of what I had in mind, but I would like to address this comment.


everyone lived together in community sharing everytyhing from food to money and their beliefs.

That sounds vaguely familiar, strangely reminiscent of the Branch Davidians or Heaven's Gate. Or, perhaps, you prefer a Jonestown comparison?

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Oh grow up. Just because some strangers on the internet don't share your delusions doesn't mean you're being oppressed.

If the evil secularists are so powerful, why the fuck doesn't america have an atheist TV channel?

[Ownthink]

If the evil secularists are so powerful, why the fuck doesn't america have an atheist TV channel?

You know, I never even thought of that. Here we have the 700 Club, Fox Family, and Channel 9, where the FUCK is my Atheist channel damnit!?

[Jimmie Higgins]

I think many comrades here are a bit ultra-left when it comes to religion. I have workerd with may religious people in coalitions and while I do think you can not be a marxist and believe in a God based on faith (that whole materialism thing you know), I do believe that religious people can be revolutionaries and important allies (Malcom X and MLK were both religious for example.

Obviously, if someone is religious and believe that homosexuals are not as good as everyone else, there is a political (not theological) argument to be made. But if someone is committed to working class struggle and their beliefs don't cause them to be bigots or sexist, then they can be allies.

In our movements ans well as after the revolution, there should be a real separation of faith and society as a whole, but I would be opposed to any restrictions of religion based on it not being anti-marxist as long as it wasn't counterrevolutionary. People should have the right to self-determination on matters of faith after a revolution. Additionally, if there was a revolution, I think a lot of people would make the self-determination to give up on religion.

Ownthink: channels that play gospel music don't bother me. THe "700 club" bothers me because they are right-wingers! I would much rather see a revolutionary channel before an aithiest channel. Most of the shows I watch are already pretty secular.

[FleasTheLemur]

Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2005, 05:31 AM
I think many comrades here are a bit ultra-left when it comes to religion. I have workerd with may religious people in coalitions and while I do think you can not be a marxist and believe in a God based on faith (that whole materialism thing you know), I do believe that religious people can be revolutionaries and important allies (Malcom X and MLK were both religious for example.

Obviously, if someone is religious and believe that homosexuals are not as good as everyone else, there is a political (not theological) argument to be made. But if someone is committed to working class struggle and their beliefs don't cause them to be bigots or sexist, then they can be allies.

In our movements ans well as after the revolution, there should be a real separation of faith and society as a whole, but I would be opposed to any restrictions of religion based on it not being anti-marxist as long as it wasn't counterrevolutionary. People should have the right to self-determination on matters of faith after a revolution. Additionally, if there was a revolution, I think a lot of people would make the self-determination to give up on religion.

Ownthink: channels that play gospel music don't bother me. THe "700 club" bothers me because they are right-wingers! I would much rather see a revolutionary channel before an aithiest channel. Most of the shows I watch are already pretty secular.
I ultimately have to agree with what everything you said, Gravy. I want to add something more to that, though. I don't have a PhD. in sociology, but I do know that people can be pretty passionate about religion. If you outright lash out at religion after the revolution, expect a reactionary revolt to take place and put the capitalists back into power. I'm just stating that this outright anti-theological stance is going to make our struggle all that harder and turning the revolution from simply killing the oppressors to paving the streets with blood and bones.

[praxis1966]

In all honesty, Fleas, I don't think anyone is arguing that. Well, except maybe RS2K. But when you come to a place like RevLeft and start discussions about religion, you should expect criticism. Shit, you should expect it anywhere that thinking people are. It's simply the nature of the beast.

Anyhow, there really isn't an real discrimination around here. We have plenty of religious people in the CC, and there's even a couple whom I would call straight up and down looney that way. But, as was said by some others, as long as their religious beliefs don't translate into them being reactionaries, nobody really gives a rat's fat ass what invisible man or woman you worship.

[Bugalu Shrimp]

These people have a sick mantra and they will stick to it like shit on a bears arse.

"There are no gods!" "Man is his own God!" but they are wrong, man is an idiot...

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Originally posted by Bugalu [email protected] 14 2005, 07:12 PM
These people have a sick mantra and they will stick to it like shit on a bears arse.

"There are no gods!" "Man is his own God!" but they are wrong, man is an idiot...
Quite unlike God, whose greatest achievements include creating a universe inimical to human life and purpose. That's IF he exists. A pretty big IF.

But mind you, I hear enough pissing and moaning about the "arrogance of man" from the primitivists let alone the superstitious idiots.

[Bugalu Shrimp]

I'm sorry, it's an uncomfortable lesson to learn.. Especially for pompous red swine who daren't suspend LOGIC and REASON - except when it comes to their own bizarre faith... Which human experiance has truely unravelled..

[Xian]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2005, 03:13 PM
OK this has been bothering me for a few months now, and was actually why i stopped coming to this website for a while.

YOu people claim to be open minded and accepting of all peoples, but the second someone says they believe in a religion you automatically downsize them and make them feel stupid for believing in a God or Gods.

I just dont understand how you can be so welcoming of everything else and then suddenly throw a book at those who have some sort of a faith.
Now im not saying we should all embrace the religious right or anything, to be honest I hate those fuckers and wish they would just shut the fuck up. But what I am asking is that you do not belittle people just because of their faith.

Personally I keep my religion to myself, i dont bring up unless people come out and ask me about it. Thats due to my personal philosphy which is in my signature.

Also Im not saying you have to Love the church and believe it is the greatest invention on earth, cause its not. I have many problems with the church and its views, but i still believe and I dont let that influence me.

IM just asking to keep an open mind. And if some1 is discussing religion and its pissing you off or whatever, then either change the subject or end the conversation.

I get it, you dont believe in God, but you dont see me throwing Bibles or Qurans or Torahs at you and shouting at you to believe.

Just accept people as who they are, dont beat them into what you want them to become.
Thank you!

A lotta these dudes try to give us science and lack of evidence for the non-eistence of god, when they are not scientists nor do they know what religion actually is. They don't know and don't understand the GOOD that it has done for us, the people it has given us, and if they try to say that religion has only spread evil and shit around the world, that is a complete lie. The truth is that they are so much on dead communists' dicks (Marx Lenin Mao Che etc.) that they take their opinions and make it their own, then try to tell us that science contradicts god, then trying to tell us that our spiritual beleifs are hurting us, all with subjective stereotypes that they have not seen with their own eyes. Go ahead and talk about crusades and popes from centuries ago who abused power and 'took money from the people', go ahead. Because for every bad religous figure, even today, there are a thousand good ones, and I've seen them. The people who run this website are not the future world leaders, in fact they are a small group who think that the prejudice hate they spread will not be needed in the future, because everyone will agree with them. Which is exactly why communism has not worked, and it will not work until we let go of that pride that comes with what we believe. Socialism will be built on respect, not on "I'm right, and if you don't think that, you're an idiot."

~peace~