View Full Version : Sectarian wars in Iraq
enigma2517
30th October 2005, 02:24
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/C3A...28E543DAD32.htm (http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/C3A2E139-40B7-4DB1-9CF9-028E543DAD32.htm)
Is Iraq too plagued by sectarian fighting that it can't focus on driving out the Americans?
Deutsche Ideologie
30th October 2005, 05:59
You act like the forces fighting in Iraq are leftists.. They're probably religious wackos.
Hopes_Guevara
30th October 2005, 07:52
Originally posted by
[email protected] 30 2005, 03:08 AM
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/C3A...28E543DAD32.htm (http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/C3A2E139-40B7-4DB1-9CF9-028E543DAD32.htm)
Is Iraq too plagued by sectarian fighting that it can't focus on driving out the Americans?
Exactly. If there's no a national solidarity, Iraq will never win America.
Tekun
30th October 2005, 10:22
Its possible that the fighting amongst themselves can/will lead to their demise
But, despite this, I believe that their number one objective still remains driving the usurpers out of Iraq
Im more than certain that their numbers will begin to dwindle years from now as a result of the sectarian fighting, yet if the situation, for American forces, perpetuates or becomes aggravated I believe that the Americans will depart more quickly then believed - as a result of Iraqi resistance
More Iraqis fight against the invaders, than they fight against themselves, Im pretty certain of that
But only time will tell
Scars
30th October 2005, 23:10
This is the result of colonial ignorance regarding the religious make up of the areas that they were turning into western-style nation states. Iraq should not exist, it should be broken up into 3 countries:
Shia-land:
The areas dominated by the Shia, the parts of Iraq closest to Iran. However it should NOT become part of Iran and that is not the intention, despite the rhetoric that flows from the mouths of the Imperialists about 'Iranian expansionism' and other assorted lies.
Sunni-land:
The areas dominated by the Sunni plus Kuwait, which was a colonial invention designed to protect oil interests in the region.
Kurdistan:
The North of Iraq up by Turkey (dominated by Kurds).
ComradeOm
31st October 2005, 00:32
Originally posted by
[email protected] 30 2005, 11:59 PM
Sunni-land:
The areas dominated by the Sunni plus Kuwait, which was a colonial invention designed to protect oil interests in the region.
Are you really excusing Saddam’s invasion of Kuwait? I doubt you support GWB’s crusade despite it breaking all the same international laws.
As for breaking Iraq up, the Kurds get the oil to the north and the Shias get the oil to the south which leaves the Sunnis with a patch of worthless desert. No wonder the Sunnis are so against breaking the country up. We shouldn’t be pandering to nationalist feelings but encouraging the workers of Iraq to work together, regardless of religion or ethnicity. Of course if you did partition the country I’d love to see how you’d stop "Shia-land" either aligning with or simply joining Iran.
Scars
31st October 2005, 03:29
<<Are you really excusing Saddam’s invasion of Kuwait? I doubt you support GWB’s crusade despite it breaking all the same international laws.>>
I don't think Saddam should have invaded Kuwait, however you cannot deny several facts:
1) Kuwait was and is stealing Iraqi oil.
2) Kuwait only exists in order to protect western oil interests in the region.
3) There is no historical presidence for the existance of Kuwait and in reality they are closer to Sunni Iraqi's than anything else.
<<As for breaking Iraq up, the Kurds get the oil to the north and the Shias get the oil to the south which leaves the Sunnis with a patch of worthless desert.>>
There is oil and other resources within the 'Sunni Triangle'
<<No wonder the Sunnis are so against breaking the country up.>>
Actually they're pissed off that they don't run the country anymore. After being pampered by the colonial regime (minorities tend to be more loyal) and then dominating the country via the Ba'ath Party going from being gods to living in a country where the majority (Shia) are starting to get their own way a bit more is bound to annoy them. They don't oppose breaking up the country, they oppose majority rule.
<<We shouldn’t be pandering to nationalist feelings but encouraging the workers of Iraq to work together, regardless of religion or ethnicity.>>
I agree, however that doesn't change the fact that Iraq, as a nation state, shouldn't exist.
<<Of course if you did partition the country I’d love to see how you’d stop "Shia-land" either aligning with or simply joining Iran.>>
You assume all Shia are the same. They would align with Iran, however hardline Shia Islamists of the Khomeni mould do not have a great deal of support in Iraq and there is still some bad blood regarding the Iran-Iraq war; regardless of religion. Iran would not want to fuse with Shia-land. Why? Because Iranians are Persians and Iraqi's are Arabs and Iran already has enough problems with their Arab minority- the last thing they want to do is make that minority bigger and have a massive concentration in one area.
h&s
31st October 2005, 15:49
The whole sectarianism issue in Iraq is one comletely brought about by the ruling classes of Iraq and the US invasion.
There is no reason why all these different peoples can't live together, but the leaders have other ideas.
The ideas of separating the different communities with power for each has lead to false tensions being whipped up between the communites.
I think the US wanted this so that there would be no mass struggle against their invasion, but it has gone a little too far for them to control.
ComradeOm
31st October 2005, 19:30
I don't think Saddam should have invaded Kuwait, however you cannot deny several facts:
1) Kuwait was and is stealing Iraqi oil.
2) Kuwait only exists in order to protect western oil interests in the region.
3) There is no historical presidence for the existance of Kuwait and in reality they are closer to Sunni Iraqi's than anything else.
The oil was Iraq’s? How exactly did you figure that out – did all the oil have “Property of Iraq” written on it? Or perhaps “Property of Mr Hussein” would be more accurate. Oil fields pay no respect to national boundaries and in this case both nations were drawing from the same well.
Kuwait is a puppet of the West along with almost every other nation, party and leader the region has seen in a hundred years. Its no better or worse than any other Arab regime you may mention. But whatever you or anyone else believes about the legitimacy of the country, it does not excuse Saddam’s invasion.
There is oil and other resources within the 'Sunni Triangle'
The “Sunni Triangle” and other Sunni controlled lands contain paltry resources when compared to the Kurdish and Shia sectors of the country. Most of the west of the country contains nothing but sand and dirt. How do you think that the Sunni politicians argued so strongly against any form of federalism?
And on that last point, even those Sunnis that have engaged in the political process - those who are glad to see Saddam fall or are simply resigned to making the best of their situation – are vehemently against a future that will allow either other community to cash in on the oil wealth at their expense.
I agree, however that doesn't change the fact that Iraq, as a nation state, shouldn't exist.
Unfortunately the world rarely works out as it “should” do
You assume all Shia are the same. They would align with Iran, however hardline Shia Islamists of the Khomeni mould do not have a great deal of support in Iraq and there is still some bad blood regarding the Iran-Iraq war; regardless of religion. Iran would not want to fuse with Shia-land. Why? Because Iranians are Persians and Iraqi's are Arabs and Iran already has enough problems with their Arab minority- the last thing they want to do is make that minority bigger and have a massive concentration in one area.
Iran is playing power politics within the region. It seeks to counter US influence in the region. At the same time the Shia community (or those that lead it) are increasingly worried that Iraq might simply fall into civil war. They need allies. Neither will be thinking too long term at this point.
Scars
31st October 2005, 23:07
<<The oil was Iraq’s? How exactly did you figure that out – did all the oil have “Property of Iraq” written on it? Or perhaps “Property of Mr Hussein” would be more accurate. Oil fields pay no respect to national boundaries and in this case both nations were drawing from the same well.>>
They were drawing oil from oil fields within Iraqi territory. Pipes are generally meant to go down, to diagonally. Both sides were in the wrong here, Kuwait prevoked Saddam, Saddam's reaction was excessive.
As for the Ba'athist regime, it did many good things and did many bad things. People who argue against secterianism are arguing for the Ba'athist line, which is staunchly opposed to secterianism. In fact one of it's founders was an Orthodox Christian (the other was a Sunni). The Iraqi Ba'athist regime was largely positive until the start of teh Iran-Iraq war, which was when the shit hit the fan in a big way. Before that Iraq had some of the best living conditions for the overwhelming majority (as opposed to a tiny elite like in Saudi Arabia and Lebanon etc) of people. The Ba'athist programmes had a hell of a lot in similar with Chavez's programmes that are all the rage in the leftist community these days.
<<Kuwait is a puppet of the West along with almost every other nation, party and leader the region has seen in a hundred years. Its no better or worse than any other Arab regime you may mention. But whatever you or anyone else believes about the legitimacy of the country, it does not excuse Saddam’s invasion.>>
Egypt under Nasser, Ba'athist Syria, Ba'athist Iraq, South Yemen (Socialist), Iran from 1979 onwards, Libya under Qaddafi, not to mention the various revolts and movements that have dotted the region in the last century. Like most places that underwent decolonialisation there were many fercious anti-western movements and anti-western sentiment. There are only a handful of governments in the Middle East that are absolute puppets of the West, and many of teh countries who use to be pro-West were overthrown by Nationalist groups (Iran and Egypt, for example).
As far as Socialist-type states go, Iraq (until the late 70s), Syria (until fairly recently), Libya and South Yemen aren't/weren't that bad. Their main fault is their overwhelming nationalism which has a tendency to overshadow other things. Hugo Chavez may be more popular, but he has a hell of a lot in common with Saddam Hussein, Hafez al-Assad (Ba'athist president of Syria) and Qaddafi.
<<The “Sunni Triangle” and other Sunni controlled lands contain paltry resources when compared to the Kurdish and Shia sectors of the country. Most of the west of the country contains nothing but sand and dirt. How do you think that the Sunni politicians argued so strongly against any form of federalism?>>
Because taking power away from a small minority (17%? Somthing like that) after decades of pampering and nearly absolute power is bound to piss them off. In addition to this, after decades of shitting on the Shia and Kurds the idea of them getting a better deal (i.e. not being oppressed) is bound to scare them just a tad. The Sunni are bitter that they've lost their privilaged position in Iraq.
<<And on that last point, even those Sunnis that have engaged in the political process - those who are glad to see Saddam fall or are simply resigned to making the best of their situation – are vehemently against a future that will allow either other community to cash in on the oil wealth at their expense.>>
Because they're use to being pampered by the former Ba'athist regime and the colonial government before that.
<<Unfortunately the world rarely works out as it “should” do>>
No, however disregarding such things would be stupid.
<<Iran is playing power politics within the region. It seeks to counter US influence in the region. At the same time the Shia community (or those that lead it) are increasingly worried that Iraq might simply fall into civil war. They need allies. Neither will be thinking too long term at this point>>
Aligning yourself with Iran and becoming part of Iran are completely different things. You assume Iran wants to absorb a large hunk of Iraq and you assume that just because they're both Shia they will want to be absorbed into Iran. Both these assumptions are wrong.
TheReadMenace
1st November 2005, 08:51
Originally posted by h&
[email protected] 31 2005, 04:38 PM
The whole sectarianism issue in Iraq is one comletely brought about by the ruling classes of Iraq and the US invasion.
Exactly. The sectarian card is just something conveniently pulled to keep people from coming together. It's something that can be overcome, which is why we should support the education of the working classes in those countries, so that they can put aside those petty differences.
But until then, it is a difficult thing, because sectarian division is quite affective (just look at the occupied Six Counties of Ireland).
God damn, this shit really needs to stop. :(
Andrew
ComradeOm
1st November 2005, 11:04
As for the Ba'athist regime, it did many good things and did many bad things. People who argue against secterianism are arguing for the Ba'athist line, which is staunchly opposed to secterianism. In fact one of it's founders was an Orthodox Christian (the other was a Sunni). The Iraqi Ba'athist regime was largely positive until the start of teh Iran-Iraq war, which was when the shit hit the fan in a big way. Before that Iraq had some of the best living conditions for the overwhelming majority (as opposed to a tiny elite like in Saudi Arabia and Lebanon etc) of people. The Ba'athist programmes had a hell of a lot in similar with Chavez's programmes that are all the rage in the leftist community these days.
Centrally directed social programs have often done wonders for improving their nation’s living standards. However I find little to admire in any Arab Socialist, or totalitarian, regimes. They have little bearing on the current discussion though and its an argument I’m not going to get into.
Egypt under Nasser, Ba'athist Syria, Ba'athist Iraq, South Yemen (Socialist), Iran from 1979 onwards, Libya under Qaddafi, not to mention the various revolts and movements that have dotted the region in the last century. Like most places that underwent decolonialisation there were many fercious anti-western movements and anti-western sentiment. There are only a handful of governments in the Middle East that are absolute puppets of the West, and many of teh countries who use to be pro-West were overthrown by Nationalist groups (Iran and Egypt, for example).
Of course, my mistake. I keep looking at this from today’s standpoint. I meant to say that every nation in the region was a puppet of either the West or the East. The Middle East saw more than its fair share of Cold War manoeuvring by the US and USSR.
Because taking power away from a small minority (17%? Somthing like that) after decades of pampering and nearly absolute power is bound to piss them off. In addition to this, after decades of shitting on the Shia and Kurds the idea of them getting a better deal (i.e. not being oppressed) is bound to scare them just a tad. The Sunni are bitter that they've lost their privilaged position in Iraq.
Excellent, you’ve just described the insurgents (or at least those who aren’t praying to Allah to drive the infidels out). The Sunni politicians who took part in elections are resigned to their faith as a minority. There’s nothing they can do now except try and get as good a deal for their communities as they possibly can. This is why they opposed a constitution that would leave the door open for further federalisation, a process which would seriously harm their resource scant provinces.
Aligning yourself with Iran and becoming part of Iran are completely different things. You assume Iran wants to absorb a large hunk of Iraq and you assume that just because they're both Shia they will want to be absorbed into Iran. Both these assumptions are wrong.
Maybe you’re right. Maybe we would not see a complete annexation, though I contend that it is still a possibility when you elevate the importance of religion to such a degree. But at the very least “Shia-land” would fall squarely into Iran’s sphere of influence. Need I say that that would not be a good thing from anyone’s point of view?
h&s
1st November 2005, 15:46
Originally posted by
[email protected] 1 2005, 09:40 AM
God damn, this shit really needs to stop. :(
Andrew
Without a strong, clearly guided worker's movement I'm afraid it will probably never stop (well not for a long time).
Thats why the left should forget about blindly supporting the 'anti-imperialist' Ba'athists and the like and actually help the Iraqis do what is needed.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2020 vBulletin Solutions Inc. All rights reserved.