wtf

[workersunity]

what did i say that makes me post only here, i need answers, this is ridiculous how im restricted to a section where dirty capitalists post,

[Xvall]

even though some of which he says is quite conspiracy ish, israel does run the world, the US is at Israels feet

I personally didn't think your statement was anti-semetic so much as it was just blatantly false. Perhaps you would like to explain yourself. If this was a message that was falsely interpreted, perhaps something can be arranged.

[workersunity]

I find this quite bullshit, as these mods who are apparently quite immature, they dont see the obvious connections between israel and the United states, given such if israel wants weapons and money, the us will bow to their feet and give them all they want. the war in iraq, not only helps us interests it also GREATLY helps israels. And its quite funny how no one let me know of why i was restricted, just restrict without explanation, as it is QUITE obvious that i am not anti-semetic. no socialist can be anti-semetic and still be a socialist its a direct contradiction. and especially since ive been a member for a while, am in the commie club, daily contribute to discussion, very dissapointed

[LSD]

I find this quite bullshit, as these mods who are apparently quite immature, they dont see the obvious connections between israel and the United states

No one denies that a close relationship exists between the US and Israel.


if israel wants weapons and money, the us will bow to their feet and give them all they want.

um... it's not nearly that simple and you know it.

The US sends a lot of aid to the Israeli government, a good deal of it in the form of military equipment. But the US also does so with the government of Colombia.

Does this mean that the US "bows to the feet" of Colombia?

What you don't seem to realize is that it serves American interests to have poweful allies. Sending them weapons ensures both that they are powerful and that they remain allies.

But don't for a momment doubt who controls which. Israel is an American puppet, not the other way around. Insistance of the latter, despite all the contradicting evidence, does hint at antisemitic motivations.


the war in iraq, not only helps us interests it also GREATLY helps israels.

Yes, because Israel greatly bennefits from the destabilization of its region and the inevitable degeneration of Iraq into an fundamentalist Islamic country. :rolleyes:


it is QUITE obvious that i am not anti-semetic.

We were mainly disturbed by the comment that you have still failed to explain, namely your insistance that "israel does run the world".

[workersunity]

so what that has anti-sematic word usage? One must look deeper into things to understand our relationship with Israel, Sharon even said himself that they control the United States, the fact that we(US) does what ever the fuck israel wants make them our lapdogs, and the fact that the US militarily, economically etc.. controls the world, indirectly gives that Israel controls the world

"Iran, Libya and Syria are irresponsible states, which must be disarmed of weapons of mass destruction, and a successful American move in Iraq as a model will make that easier to achieve. "

"Every time we do something, you [Shimon Peres] tell me America will do this and will do that... I want to tell you something very clear: Don’t worry about American pressure on Israel. We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it.”

Ariel Sharon

[KC]

Because Sharon believes it makes it true? This is what you're basing your whole argument on? Sharon's belief? You can't do any better than that?

[Xvall]

I think it at least stands to reason, though, that he made a mistake, and is not actually anti-semetic.

[LSD]

One must look deeper into things to understand our relationship with Israel

And what is your theory on the subject?

Why would the most powerful country in the world "bow to the feet" and be the "lapdog" to a tiny nation of 9 million?

It makes no sense!

...unless "it&#39;s the Jews". <_<


"Every time we do something, you [Shimon Peres] tell me America will do this and will do that... I want to tell you something very clear: Don’t worry about American pressure on Israel. We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it.”

Ariel Sharon

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ouze_Merham
http://world.std.com/~camera/docs/alert/geyer.html

[workersunity]

and it is quite ridiculous that i was restricted to the cappie forum, thats worse than being banned, unrestrict me godammit

[LSD]

I think it at least stands to reason, though, that he made a mistake, and is not actually anti-semetic.

I don&#39;t know. I&#39;m actually more concerned now than I was before.

Not only is he insisting on the ludicrous idea that "Israel controls" America, he&#39;s quoting pro-Hamas publications to do so.

[Severian]

Originally posted by [email protected] 29 2005, 07:11 PM
I no socialist can be anti-semetic and still be a socialist its a direct contradiction.
May I point out that this bizarre idea that little Israel controls history&#39;s greatest imperialist power....is a hallmark of National Socialism as well. They refer to Uncle Sam as the "Zionist Occupied Government." How is your claim different? How can Israel control the U.S....unless it&#39;s just that "the Jews" control everything, as Nazis and similar scum have always claimed?

Whether you know it or not, you are repeating a conspiracy theory originating on the fascist ultraright. At first I thought your restriction mighta been a bit hasty, but when I see how stubbornly you hold on to it....

If you&#39;re actually interested in finding out what&#39;s wrong with this kind of idea, read this. (http://www.publiceye.org/tooclose/conspiracism-07.html)

It&#39;s made up of multiple short parts, just keep clicking "next".

[Livetrueordie]

how could you restrict him for saying something that isn&#39;t even blatantly anti-semetic? Your restricting him because he has a different opinion then you.You been reading a lot of Stalin lately or what? He believes Israel controls the US, and the US obviously has global hegemony. while i think it&#39;s Israel that is controlled by the US, saying otherwise isn&#39;t anti-semetic...
This is rediculous
LTOD

[which doctor]

RevLeft does seem to be getting very ban and restrict happy lately. I agree that his restriction should be lifted.

[workersunity]

its quite ridiculous, just because a select few people, disagree with little or no sources to back them up, all the while looking at things at the top of things, it may seem obvious that the us controls israel but it all matters on which level you are looking things at. one the one hand US may control Israel, but on the other Israel may control the US< it all depends on how you view the world. But saying im quoting pro-hamas sites is REALLY fucking idiotic, as that quote can be found on nearly any quote site, i believe i got it off of brainyquote or something or other. Also Wikipedia isnt the sole truth on all facts, anybody can write on that. its not automatically right. By even having to have this discussion shows how ridiculous and absolutist some of the mods on this site can be.

[workersunity]

Originally posted by Severian+Oct 29 2005, 08:28 PM--> (Severian @ Oct 29 2005, 08:28 PM)
[email protected] 29 2005, 07:11 PM
I no socialist can be anti-semetic and still be a socialist its a direct contradiction.
May I point out that this bizarre idea that little Israel controls history&#39;s greatest imperialist power....is a hallmark of National Socialism as well. They refer to Uncle Sam as the "Zionist Occupied Government." How is your claim different? How can Israel control the U.S....unless it&#39;s just that "the Jews" control everything, as Nazis and similar scum have always claimed?

Whether you know it or not, you are repeating a conspiracy theory originating on the fascist ultraright. At first I thought your restriction mighta been a bit hasty, but when I see how stubbornly you hold on to it....

If you&#39;re actually interested in finding out what&#39;s wrong with this kind of idea, read this. (http://www.publiceye.org/tooclose/conspiracism-07.html)

It&#39;s made up of multiple short parts, just keep clicking "next". [/b]
even comparing me to a nazi or having similar thoughts with nazis shows the ignorance you will succumb to, to try to make a point

[BuyOurEverything]

Your restricting him because he has a different opinion then you

Yes, that is what we do here. That&#39;s why we have the OI.

I think it&#39;s scary that people here don&#39;t realize the connection between anti-semitism and concepts such as global jewish conspiracies, and israel controlling the world.


while i think it&#39;s Israel that is controlled by the US, saying otherwise isn&#39;t anti-semetic...


It&#39;s certainly heavily influenced by anti-semetic thinking. There is no evidence to back up this ridiculous claim, other than theories of &#39;jewish conspiracy&#39;.


RevLeft does seem to be getting very ban and restrict happy lately. I agree that his restriction should be lifted.

Absolutely not. Tolerating anti-semitism is the last thing we should be doing here.

[BuyOurEverything]

its quite ridiculous, just because a select few people, disagree with little or no sources to back them up, all the while looking at things at the top of things, it may seem obvious that the us controls israel but it all matters on which level you are looking things at. one the one hand US may control Israel, but on the other Israel may control the US< it all depends on how you view the world

I&#39;m starting to think maybe we should just ban you for stupidity.

[LSD]

one the one hand US may control Israel, but on the other Israel may control the US< it all depends on how you view the world.

Yes, and one way is correct, the other is not.

Again, I ask, why would the US allow itself to be controlled by a tiny insignifigant nation two continents away?

If you&#39;re not saying it&#39;s because of the "rich Jews", what are you saying?


But saying im quoting pro-hamas sites is REALLY fucking idiotic, as that quote can be found on nearly any quote site, i believe i got it off of brainyquote or something or other.

It&#39;s such a patently ridiculous quote at face that anyone with even a half-hearted intent to be unbiased would do some quick research on it.

The fact that you accepted so quickly that Sharon would say "we, the Jewish people, control America", the hallmark of right-wing neonazi rhetoric, is very disturbing to me.

[Ginger Goodwin]

At the risk of being banned as well.................
It should be noted that Bush has surrounded himself with many folks who are either Zionists or very pro Israel.
Perhaps this is what the mass murderer Ariel sharon had in mind with his statement that Israel controls America.

[Livetrueordie]

Yes, that is what we do here. That&#39;s why we have the OI. yes but that is for people with different ideological opinions, not simply a different opinion on a moment in history

[LSD]

Perhaps this is what the mass murderer Ariel sharon had in mind with his statement that Israel controls America.

Once again, he never made that statement&#33;


yes but that is for people with different ideological opinions, not simply a different opinion on a moment in history

This isn&#39;t about a "moment in history", it&#39;s about a perspective that is so warped that it sees the most powerful country on earth being controlled by one of the smallest.

Such a bizarre outlook can only be explained by a "Jewish conspiracy" theory, and that is an "Opposing Ideology".

[4514]

some of you moderators should pour yourself a glass of champagne
cuz its all your worth.

if wer all part of socialist/anarchist/ commie board, bannings and restrictions should be put to a vote by all members of this board.

4514
broken and dying

[Reds]

There is nothing antisematic about opposing a settler state that uses religion to forward an imperial agenda.

[Xvall]

Absolutely not. Tolerating anti-semitism is the last thing we should be doing here.

Again, I doubt he is anti-semetic. Even his statements seem to only be critical of the government of Israel, and not "the jews". You may have a point with FP&#39;s statements about a "world Jewish heirarchy", but workersunity never even mentioned Juddaism. He&#39;s been here for a long while and has never said anything anti-semetic; I doubt he would do so now. If someone accused the Chinese Government of controlling another country, would they be anti-asian or anti-chinese?

[workersunity]

thank you all who are helping me fight off these narrow minded admins. and apparently i would be considered anti-chinese if i talked about such things, It seems as though the admins would like to lose a comrade of the movement, welp sounds pretty stalinistic if you ask me, as well. And apparently none of the admins read what i said about marxists and judaism, in that one cannot be anti-semitic and still be a marxist, they read what they wanna read, hear what they wanna hear. and it seems at anything they dont understand, instead of asking questions on why i think that, or deeper questions about that belief they just restrict to OI. I never once said Jews control the world, I SAID the STATE of Israel does, albeit indirectly. INDIRECTLY&#33;&#33; none seemed to see when i wrote that. The state of Israel has such a relationship with the USA, that it has power to have the US use its abilities as a world power to have its wishes settled, in that case the state of israel controls the relations of the world. if they wanted lebanon smacked with sanctions, bam its done, Israel is one of the biggest allies of the US, this has come about through international relations, and through the ideologies of both, that of imperialist powers who will do all thats in their power to enact their wishes, while stomping on those that resist them. It could be that each have control of the other in different sectors, i never denied this. If the admins on this site believe im anti-semitic from using only what i said on that thread, they fail to grasp what anti-semitism is, lets make this clear right now Im NOT anti-semitic, i AM Anti-ZIONIST. I find it quite ridiculous that they would ban one of their finer, dedicated, comrades, than settle these differences of opinion on this one issue, i find that given the take by the admins my entrance or anyones entrance into the title only position of commie club member. means nothing, since they will after all let an anti-semitic into its rank, oh my goodness :wacko: . If i continue to stay restricted to the OI forums in which i dont belong and find my restricting there makes me angry at the audacity of some "comrades", i will stop posting at Revleft, and find somewhere else to post, as the admins dont enjoy healthy dissent, i bid you true comrades thanks, and continue the struggle, to those that restricted me here, your beliefs will get you nowhere if people to be your comrades have to hold beliefs that match yours to the fullest

for the revolution,
John :hammer:

[Xvall]

thank you all who are helping me fight off these narrow minded admins.

Just letting you know, you&#39;re not going to get far talking like that. Keep in mind that it is the "narrow minded admins" who will ultimately have the authority to repeal your restriction.

[workersunity]

well maybe its not worth it then

[Martin Blank]

Originally posted by Lysergic Acid [email protected] 29 2005, 09:38 PM

the war in iraq, not only helps us interests it also GREATLY helps israels.

Yes, because Israel greatly bennefits from the destabilization of its region and the inevitable degeneration of Iraq into an fundamentalist Islamic country. :rolleyes:
Actually, Israel does benefit from such a situation.

Internally:
* It allows the Israeli bourgeois to continue to justify the militarist regimentation of Israeli society;
* It offers another opportunity to justify their own racism against Israeli Arabs;
* It provides another "reason" to undercut the peace movement;
* It squelches any talk of rapproachment with neighboring Arab states within the Knesset;
* It serves to stall, ignore and ultimately undermine talks with the Palestinians.

Externally:
* It "justifies" the maintenance of IDF forces in the West Bank;
* It provides a rationale for appealing for more aid from Europe and the U.S.;
* It can serve as a rationale for pre-emptive action against "terrorists";
* It can also serve as another rationale for the "security wall" they are building in the West Bank.

It is not anti-Semitic to point this out.

Miles

[somebodywhowantedtoleaveandnotcomeback]

You&#39;re making a mistake saying his comment was anti-semetic, as he only pointed out to Israel, which is, however a jewish state, not a synonym for "the jews". So how can you state that he is an anti-semetic? Why on earth would he want to hide his "beliefs" for so long and meanwhilejust keep posting as a "real socialist" ? If these are your grounds for restricting members, you migth want to rename this forum "RevolutionaryStalinism" or something. And no offense, I do not mean to insult any of you, I&#39;m merely showing you the contradiction in your logics.

Hasta la victoria, siempre.

[workersunity]

thank you both for your comments, they do tend to ignore the facts of the matter

[Martin Blank]

Originally posted by Lysergic Acid [email protected] 29 2005, 10:15 PM

"Every time we do something, you [Shimon Peres] tell me America will do this and will do that... I want to tell you something very clear: Don’t worry about American pressure on Israel. We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it.”

Ariel Sharon

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ouze_Merham
http://world.std.com/~camera/docs/alert/geyer.html
So, I&#39;ve been doing some research into this alleged quote. Here is what I&#39;ve found.

First, surprisingly, there is nothing on Snopes about this quote. I did three extensive searches of their website.

I went to BrainyQuote and, no, it was not listed there among their Ariel Sharon quotes. However, I found a references to this quote on a number of websites that are often used by leftists and radicals, including What Really Happened and Media Monitors, as well as on a number of websites that offer news and information about what&#39;s happening in Palestine. Media Monitors also has a number of quotes from American government officials that express the same thing as this alleged Sharon quote.

It is easy to see how someone who is not intimately familiar with the different websites and groups would read this and think it to be true. (I am reminded of the quote attributed to an Israeli general where he says the IDF is modeling itself on the Nazis, which was proven to be false.)

Now, the &#036;64,000 question: Is it a real quote? From what I can tell, it is probably not. Even Sharon does not have the hubris (or the balls) to be that blunt. My guess is that all but the last line of the quote is real, though (or, alternatively, that the last line was a misquote, perhaps from a sentence that started, "Some Americans think..." and that that last line should also be preceded by ellipses).

Miles

[rioters bloc]

i think the restriction was much too hasty, on workersunity at least, and should go to cc vote. arbitrary use of restrictions when not immediately necessary seems to be alienating a lot of people of late.

[Martin Blank]

It seems that those who are supporting the ban on workersunity are making a similar mistake to others who argue that criticism of Israel is equivalent to anti-Semitism. In another thread on this general issue, I wrote this response (with the name of my interlocutor removed):


There is a real, fundamental problem with this view, and it betrays a kind of anti-Semitism itself. It begins with the phrase, "Israel, the nation of former victims of the Nazis". While it is true that some of the survivors of the Holocaust did go to Palestine after the Second World War and became citizens of Israel after its establishment in 1948, it is wrong factually and politically to call that state "the nation of former victims of the Nazis".

Who set up the State of Israel -- its state apparatus and government? It was not those who made it out of the camps with barely a breath of life in them, but those who acted as the agents of fascism in the camps (the Kapos), who composed that entity. The Stern Gang and Irgun were fascist bands that openly collaborated with the Axis powers; after the war, they were the ones who provided the "bodies of armed men" that made Israel a state. Both David Ben-Gurion and Menachem Begin were collaborators and Kapos for the Nazis, acting as police in the concentration camps and ghettos on their behalf.

This is the real basis for the State of Israel, not the survivors of the Holocaust&#33; These fascist bastards -- these fucking Kapos, who helped kill more than a few of my own family -- are what made Israel what it was and what it is today.

To whitewash this history, to pretend that all those of Jewish ancestry were treated the same and condemned to the same fate, is to cheapen, degrade and, in my view, spit on the memory of those who resisted fascism in Warsaw, in Auschwitz, in Dachau, in Bergen-Belsen -- it spits on the graves of the millions who died by essentially equating their struggle with the crimes of their comprador oppressors.

I find it to be rather anti-Semitic to think that all those who were Jewish were the same, which is the implication of your argument, XXXX. Just as in any community where an outside group attempts genocide, there are those who will try to make peace with the butchers, and there are those who will sell out their own people for a spot of privilege. This was just as true for the European Jewish community of the 1930s as it is for most racially and nationally oppressed communities today.

Moreover, it also smacks of anti-Semitism in the sense that perpetuating stereotypes is a form of racial or national oppression, to equate the world&#39;s Jewish community with that of the population of Israel, when even most Israelis themselves do not make such an equation. Recently, the charge d&#39;affairs for Israel in the U.S. was asked about his comment to this effect on a nationally syndicated radio program (a liberal radio program at that&#33;). His response was a mix of Zionist hubris and racist condemnation of ... European Jews. In his view, which is a common view among many Israelis, the Jews of Europe were "weak" for "allowing themselves" to be sent to the Nazi death camps. Those Israelis who called into the program defended this view vehemently, calling it an "outgrowth" of Israel&#39;s "military culture".

When you equate criticism of Israel with "anti-Semitism", you in fact condone the obvious and blatant anti-Semitism expressed by Israelis against the world Jewish community, and you whitewash the collaboration between fascism and those who were to found the future Israeli state.

Miles

[Free Palestine]

I was also recently restricted for "anti-Semitism." I have said nothing that would cause me to deserve to be castigated as such. It is really getting fucking ridiculous. I am so disgusted by this decision I don&#39;t know if I want to post here at all any longer.

The moderators here are behaving like more like American Senator McCarthy than "revolutionary leftists." Apparently raising the subject of Zionist influence makes you an "anti-Semite" and you are banned immediately. Is this the Anti-Defemation League or Revolutionary Left?

[somebodywhowantedtoleaveandnotcomeback]

CL, hasn&#39;t the CC voted on this?

[Martin Blank]

Originally posted by [email protected] 30 2005, 05:50 AM
CL, hasn&#39;t the CC voted on this?
Not that I&#39;m aware of.

Miles

[bunk]

Originally posted by [email protected] 30 2005, 12:39 AM
what did i say that makes me post only here, i need answers, this is ridiculous how im restricted to a section where dirty capitalists post,
mainly for &#39; welcome comrade, post much and prosper&#39; :D :D

[SCDF]

I&#39;m restricted too, and I didn&#39;t even say Communism is bad. I thougt this was a place of mature people (which it is in fact, if I see the reactions in my newbee topic). It&#39;s a pitty that I&#39;m restricted now, and I have the feeling that it is a litle bit of censure. PRC Kensei knows that I stand open for different opinions.

[Black Dagger]

i think the restriction was much too hasty, on workersunity at least, and should go to cc vote. arbitrary use of restrictions when not immediately necessary seems to be alienating a lot of people of late.

I agree, there has to be voting on this issue. I think that if these restrictions went to vote the results would not be as clear-cut as the unilateral restrictions imply.

[BuyOurEverything]

OK, maybe in the interest of clearing this up, would wu like to explain what he meant by &#39;israel controls the world&#39; and how he believes they would be capable of something like that? Perhaps there is some explanation that would not be anti-semetic, but I can&#39;t think of one.

And no, objectively, saying &#39;israel controls the world&#39; isn&#39;t anti-semetic per se, but it&#39;s so obviously linked to an anti-semetic world view, that without a damn good explanation, one could reasonably assume that whomever said it was anti-semetic. Kind of like how the far right rants about immigrants. Objectively, there is nothing racist per se about opposing immigrants, but...

[rioters bloc]

Originally posted by [email protected] 31 2005, 12:37 AM
OK, maybe in the interest of clearing this up, would wu like to explain what he meant by &#39;israel controls the world&#39; and how he believes they would be capable of something like that? Perhaps there is some explanation that would not be anti-semetic, but I can&#39;t think of one.

And no, objectively, saying &#39;israel controls the world&#39; isn&#39;t anti-semetic per se, but it&#39;s so obviously linked to an anti-semetic world view, that without a damn good explanation, one could reasonably assume that whomever said it was anti-semetic. Kind of like how the far right rants about immigrants. Objectively, there is nothing racist per se about opposing immigrants, but...
i&#39;m not saying he&#39;s not misinformed [so many negatives, argh] or even that that comment was right - i&#39;m saying that &#39;israel&#39; and &#39;the jewish people&#39; are not synonymous with one another and i find it offensive that people think they are. CommunistLeague already pretty much said what i have to say on that issue, and articulated it better than i could. clealrly though there is a fair bit of dissent to the restriction, but unless it actually does get taken to cc poll this discussion is pointless, because no matter how much we argue and how many posts we make about it, we&#39;re effectively silenced.

[Livetrueordie]

http://################## might be of interest... delete the spaces

[KC]

I&#39;m restricted too, and I didn&#39;t even say Communism is bad. I thougt this was a place of mature people (which it is in fact, if I see the reactions in my newbee topic). It&#39;s a pitty that I&#39;m restricted now, and I have the feeling that it is a litle bit of censure. PRC Kensei knows that I stand open for different opinions.

You were restricted simply because you aren&#39;t a leftist. This is a leftist discussion board and anyone that isn&#39;t a leftist is restricted. Don&#39;t take it personal or anything; it&#39;s nothing against you, so calm down.

[workersunity]

I have explained my view on the state of Israel, in no way is speaking ill of the state of Israel make me have anti-semitic thoughts, once again people hear what they wanna hear. firstly i would like to thanks Miles, and the others who have backed me up through, absolutist garb. My views on Israel are those that i have said in this forums, as well as believing what Miles posted on this thread. thanks Miles for putting whats in my mind into coherent, well thought out sentences. It seems to me, that there is a somewhat bias on this site regarding the whole semitic- zionist debate. Most of the people who get restricted for these subjects are clearly anti-zionists, and in no way is that equated with anti-semitism. Anti-Zionism, is basically against the creation of a jewish state in modern day palestine if im not mistaken, it should be quite obvious to all comrades in the movement to be full fledged anti-zionists, as Zionism is just a bourgeois belief that expounds oppression on those that get in the way, i.e. palestinians.

[LSD]

workersunity, I understand the difference between the state of Israel and the Jewish people. The worry here is whether or not you do.

Despite you having posted several times in this thread, you have still not responded the very simple question that I, Severian, Lazar, and others keep asking you: How can Israel control the US?

If you want to have your restriction reconsidered you need to explain how this opinion is not based on an antsiemitic paradigm. This viewpoint, you see, is so common and iconic of the neonazi right, that when we see it we cannot help but think that you are operating from similar assumptions.

If, indeed, you are not, could you please explain yourself so that we may better understand your thoughts.


Free Palestine, you know damn well why you were restricted. I told you in the "IsraeL" thread.

You have made reference to a "World Jewish Hierarchy" that does or did control all or part of the world. Despite repeated requests, you have failed to explain this comment.

[workersunity]

I do not believe in the "world jewish Hierarchy" and given that i find it quite preposterous that i have been restricted to OI. My saying that Israel indirectly controls the world, means that the state of Israel does, if Britain had the stranglehold on the US, i would say the same about them, but i doubt someone would in that instance call me off being an anglophobe or something of the sort, its only because judaism is a very touchy subject and with all the past history it gets paid a lot of detail, i know this, i assure you my belief in that Israel controls the us, which ultimately could lead to the world, does not stem from anti-semitic beliefs, It stems from knowledge of the global system and the international relations Israel has to other countries. The US is at the mercy of the State of Israel, i dont know why necessarily, but if they wanted something done the US would gleefully jump to it. The US-Israel relationship has part to do with, both of the countries struggle to basically eliminate the sovereignty of Arab nations. Both Israel and the US are extremely racist against arabs, some of this has to do with their ignorant beliefs about Islam, and some just has to do with just plain ignorance. If Israel told the US that a certain country was a threat to "world peace" then the US more than likely would do something about it, thats the just of it, i dont have enough information to attest to the belief that Jewish people control the world in some sort of conspiracy heirarchy or whatever the hell that was said. I dont believe a certain group of Jewish people control everything, More than just jewish people have control in the world, Many people of different ethnicities,religions, beliefs etc.. run the world. now if this is not adequate then you fail to understand the workings of our international system, and i can do nothing but bid you adieu

[Urban Guerrilla]

RevLeft (mostly CC) ... Ruling with an Iron fist.

######

[MoscowFarewell]

Originally posted by [email protected] 30 2005, 02:16 AM
and it is quite ridiculous that i was restricted to the cappie forum, thats worse than being banned, unrestrict me godammit
Is it me or is it sad that you must whine as a child to achieve something you&#39;re not approved for?

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

There was no vote, Malte acted unilaterally.

But, to be fair, if you read the rules when you sign up they say:


Can&#39;t it be better?

While we do love our decentralization, and we do consider it a reflection upon how we see a future society can be organized along Socialist lines, this is not a country. There will always be a hierarchy here, no matter what we think of hierarchy in the real world. Malte will always own this site, and have the final decision if he chooses to make it.

That&#39;s the way it is, and it&#39;s neither bad nor good, just the fact.

I&#39;m not saying I agree with them, but there they are for anyone to see.

[workersunity]

so anyone who disagress with malte is fucked, this is whats wrong with the left wing movement, particulary the socialist movement, when people disagree on small fucking things, shit hits the fan

[dakewlguy]

And here I was thinking what was wrong with the left wing movement was it&#39;s repetition of old cliches and inability to understand or connect with modern individuals.

[Publius]

I heard it was the Jews that restricted him.

Either that or the LaRouchies...

[workersunity]

they just might have a bias,in which whenever jewish people, or judaism or israel is brought up they get all but hurt and restrict

[Severian]

Originally posted by [email protected] 30 2005, 03:08 AM
It is easy to see how someone who is not intimately familiar with the different websites and groups would read this and think it to be true.
No, it&#39;s not. It&#39;s ridiculous to think Sharon would claim to control the United States. Only someone predisposed to think "the Zionists" control everything would believe it.

My first impulse on seeing it was to demand a source, I actually had that typed out before seeing LSD&#39;s debunk.

That you found it on various leftist sites just indicates the spread through the left of conspiracy theories and a conspiracist world-view originating on the ultraright. Again, see the Public Eye article I linked on the first page of this thread. As they point out, there is no such thing as progressive conspiracism.

Malte is absolutely correct to take a strong stand against anybody giving even their little finger to fascist ideology. And clearly Free Palestine and workersunity have given a lot more than that.

Not only are they still avoiding the real issue, but so are you, in an unprincipled defense of workersunity for no reason I can see except that he supports your group (for example, links its site in his sig.)

***

Publius actually has the best post in this thread.

[that1guy435]

You mods/admins are being fucking asses. You restricted him for saying Israel controls the US? Okay, so thats completely false, but why would you ban some one for being ill-informed? Rather than restricting him, why don&#39;t you just prove him wrong(which wouldn&#39;t be hard)?And how the hell is that anti-semetic? If I say China is taking over the world, does that make me a racist? Of course not&#33; This is a horrible descision, one which is our duty to protest until corrected.

[workersunity]

"Malte is absolutely correct to take a strong stand against anybody giving even their little finger to fascist ideology. And clearly Free Palestine and workersunity have given a lot more than that.

Not only are they still avoiding the real issue, but so are you, in an unprincipled defense of workersunity for no reason I can see except that he supports your group (for example, links its site in his sig.)"

It seems that more mods than just Malte are ignorant, and quite foolish. How am i giving their finger to fascist Ideology? by stating the truth, that Israel greatly benefits from having the US on a chain, Israel benefits much more than the US in terms of relations with predominately arab countries. You said free palestine and myself have more than given " a finger" to fascist ideology? basically saying two of your comrades, are fascists or have fascist sympathies, you know what, what you, malte and the others seem to act like are the protest warriors, they try to say hitler was on the left because the PWers are orthodox jews and hate to put hitler on the right end spectrum as themselves. In which you are basically saying anyone who criticizes the state of Israel is not a leftist, in fact they are a fascists, wow how thought out, and enlightening. It seems to me as though noone of you even have a problem with the State of Israel, that could be many reasons, maybe you dont think the Israeli state is illegitimate, or that palestinians arent being oppressed, or that you equate anti-zionism with anti-semitism which by now should be quite evident to everyone who has posted on this board. It seems that you mods just love restricting those people who are for a free palestine, and against the illegal occupation of their land. Wow you guys are great communists, I just hope that noone else latches on to those views, as they are completely off track. conspiracy theories Do NOT necessarily originate on the right wing, in fact most are given from the left wing. given that aside, it would be reasonable to debate why i believe the way i do, and why you believe the way you do, but instead Malte just decides to take the easy route and restrict, wow Malte having such power is great isnt it? i mean all the members are at your will, i guess we should start building statues of you. I bet it kinda makes you feel like Stalin, so much power, restricting people, based on your warped view of communism. keep it up. An intelligent thing to do, wouldve have been to have a healthy debate, but i guess your not as intelligent as we supposed.
regarding Miles posts, i find your comment ridiculous as Miles never strayed from the point of this whole fucked up situation instead gave logical and well thought out reasons on why Israel benefits from such a situation, care to try to disprove any of those points?? Ill let you get back to me on that. saying that he only stood up for me because i have the CL link in my sig is completely unfounded, Miles and I both use reason, and both know the situation that is going on in the middle east. Im sorry you might back down from what you would deem a "touchy" subject but Miles sure as hell doesnt, he says what needs to be said, and most of the time, it turns out people will just attack him, without even countering what he posted.

to that last comment, before saying i am just dead wrong, how about have a debate and decide for yourself. other than that, thanks for actually being a comrade, in that latter part of your post, cant say the same for many of these people though

[Severian]

Originally posted by [email protected] 30 2005, 09:21 PM
Rather than restricting him, why don&#39;t you just prove him wrong(which wouldn&#39;t be hard)?
You&#39;re right, it wouldn&#39;t be hard. It wasn&#39;t hard. It&#39;s been done. Many times.

It&#39;s also useless. People who believe this kind of ridiculous crap believe it for irrational reasons. Reason won&#39;t convince them.

That&#39;s why we don&#39;t allow Nazis here, either. If they were open to reason, I&#39;d say: let &#39;em in, we&#39;ll convert &#39;em to sanity. But they&#39;re not.

If anyone wants to waste their time disproving this kind of nonsense, they can go over to Stormfront and argue with people who believe it...&#39;til you get banned.

[NovelGentry]

This sure is interesting... dare I say that? I&#39;ll probably be warned, restricted, or banned -- no doubt this thread should be closing soon, at the very least before I get involved and start inciting riots again ;)

[RedStarOverChina]

^You forgot the fact that sarcasm isn&#39;t appreciated here either. :lol:

Anti-Zionism isn&#39;t anti-sematic.

[Martin Blank]

Originally posted by Severian+Oct 30 2005, 10:51 PM--> (Severian &#064; Oct 30 2005, 10:51 PM)Not only are they still avoiding the real issue, but so are you, in an unprincipled defense of workersunity for no reason I can see except that he supports your group (for example, links its site in his sig.)[/b]

Who is avoiding the issue? I have made my views quite clear on this issue -- on this thread and on others, including the one where workersunity first made his statement:


[email protected] 28 2005, 09:34 PM
I disagree. You&#39;re confusing U.S. imperialism&#39;s loyalty to a much-needed outpost with that outpost calling the shots. Remember, if Israel were ever to really disagree with Washington, that &#036;1 billion a day they receive in "aid" would dry up overnight and Israel would be SOL. The same is true if they can find a more stable and reliable ally in the region.

Israel has certainly made itself needed by U.S. imperialism for the moment, but it has not made itself indispensible. If supporting Israel becomes "unprofitable", just watch how quickly Washington turns on Tel Aviv. They&#39;ve done it before: Marcos in the Philippines, Noriega in Panama, Pinochet in Chile, Botha in South Africa, Saddam Hussein in Iraq, etc.

In a PM conversation with another person on the other side of this issue, I also wrote:



maybe you should have make clear from the beginning, because the validity of that comparison was the cause of our argument, at least for me. I guess for you it was rather my view to see Israel as the "county of victims of the holocaust", I can understand that this view is very argueable. Still I think for many Jews Israel had exactly that role after the Shoa, despite of the zionist Nazi colaborators.

You&#39;re right that I probably should have. I tried to get that across when I asked about making the more general comparisons, but it&#39;s obvious I should have been clearer. And I know that, for many who survived the Shoah, the U.S. was looked at as more of a hospitable and realistic home.

And I think that&#39;s where the question of Israeli-U.S. ties really begins. Even though the U.S. capitalists were not too thrilled with the influx of European Jews after WWII, the larger Jewish presence in the U.S. could be used to the capitalists&#39; advantage -- especially since the more forward-thinking capitalists knew very well that the American Century needed Middle Eastern oil.

Having Israel as an ally in the Middle East and North Africa provided them with the same kind of imperialist "beachhead" as the Philippines (for East Asia), Cuba (for Latin America), Panama (for controlling Atlantic-Pacific shipping trade), etc. It was part of a package deal worked out between the U.S. and Britain after WWII. But I think the reason why, today, Israel looks like it has such influence and "control", so to speak, is because it is the last of these "beachheads" the U.S. still has, and they will do just about anything to maintain it -- especially now, with inter-imperialist rivalries ramping up like they are.


I gotta admit I didn&#39;t consider the role of zionist Nazi collaborators for my view on Israel so far at all, and I wasn&#39;t aware of all facts. Still I do think Israel has a moral justification, and I do support it&#39;s right to exist, as I have said in the lengthy discussion of the past days.

It&#39;s not a moral question for me, it&#39;s a material question. Israel exists; it has for close to 60 years. There is now a distinct Israeli nationality, both linked to and distinct from the world Jewish community as a whole. It can no more be wiped off the face of the earth than the U.S. could in the mid-19th century, apart from an act of genocide. If Israel is to exist, however, it will have to abandon its theocratic underpinnings (just as the majority of Israelis have) and become a secular, democratic state, where both Jewish and Arab Israelis have full equality, and exist alongside a democratic, secular Palestinian state -- preferrably existing together in a federated republic (for the time being, that is, until the abolition of classes).

I think these are clear statements of my views (the League has not taken a position on Israel/Palestine yet). Comrades here, both those who are League members and those who are not, can see for themselves where I stand and respond accordingly.

But you are welcome to continue your witchhunt and attempt to settle political scores through administrative action. It fits your political profile.

Miles

[Free Palestine]

But you are welcome to continue your witchhunt and attempt to settle political scores through administrative action. It fits your political profile.

So true.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[workersunity]

Originally posted by Severian+Oct 30 2005, 11:11 PM--> (Severian @ Oct 30 2005, 11:11 PM)
[email protected] 30 2005, 09:21 PM
Rather than restricting him, why don&#39;t you just prove him wrong(which wouldn&#39;t be hard)?
You&#39;re right, it wouldn&#39;t be hard. It wasn&#39;t hard. It&#39;s been done. Many times.

It&#39;s also useless. People who believe this kind of ridiculous crap believe it for irrational reasons. Reason won&#39;t convince them.

That&#39;s why we don&#39;t allow Nazis here, either. If they were open to reason, I&#39;d say: let &#39;em in, we&#39;ll convert &#39;em to sanity. But they&#39;re not.

If anyone wants to waste their time disproving this kind of nonsense, they can go over to Stormfront and argue with people who believe it...&#39;til you get banned. [/b]
It wasnt hard?? how did you disprove me "many times" i would like to see that, since you havent done it yet, makes it hard to believe youve done it many times. how is it useless to constructively argue about subjects that face our society, and must be discussed in order to come to adequate conclusions. prove that it is ridiculous crap? please do, we all are waiting. thats the difference though with nazis, they dont use reason, We (Miles and I) do. Your arrogance isnt helping anyone

[Severian]

Originally posted by [email protected] 31 2005, 12:37 AM
Who is avoiding the issue? I have made my views quite clear on this issue -- on this thread and on others, including the one where workersunity first made his statement:

I&#39;m sorry, no. In this thread, you have not made your views clear at all on that issue, even, which is why you had to bring in a quote from another one&#33;

Let alone the real issue, which is whether this board should tolerate the promotion of anti-Semitic conspiracy theories about Jews controlling the world or the U.S. government. These are the same kind of conspiracy theories which have been the stock in trade of the fascist and near-fascist ultraright for decades, and somebody with your amount of political experience must know it. Yet you&#39;ve utterly failed - in any thread&#33; - to explain why you think those conspiracy theories and posters who promote them should be tolerated.

Instead, you&#39;ve raised the red herring that criticism of Israel is not anti-Semitism. Nobody said it was.

And you&#39;ve attempted to derail things with a discussion of Malte&#39;s views on related but separate questions. Israel&#39;s right to exist, the uniqueness of the Nazi holocaust, etc. I agree Malte&#39;s wrong on some of those things, and I&#39;ve argued that he&#39;s wrong in other threads.

That doesn&#39;t make him wrong to refuse to tolerate anti-Semitic conspiracism&#33;

And now you&#39;ve invented another red herring: the "witch hunt". I am not advocating any administrative action against you. I am pointing out your behavior is massively unprincipled (which is not against the board rules, of course.)

You&#39;ll really go to amazing lengths to distract attention from the reason your comrade was restricted.

[BuyOurEverything]

I heard it was the Jews that restricted him.

Either that or the LaRouchies...

I think it was actually the Rosthchilds.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Workersunity, you still haven&#39;t explained how the Jews control the world, you have simply whinged and acted like a little suckup to anyone defending you.

Now explain how the fuck Isreal controls the world, and their might be some hope for you. If you continue to *****, I&#39;ll give you a warning point and recommend your banning for anti-semitism.

[bcbm]

Nevermind.

[Black Dagger]

Workersunity, you still haven&#39;t explained how the Jews control the world, you have simply whinged and acted like a little suckup to anyone defending you.

As far as i&#39;m aware he never stated that &#39;jews control the world&#39;, nor did the post he was restricted for mentioned the state of israel, not &#39;the jews&#39;.

[Severian]

Oh fer crying out loud. That&#39;s a purely semantic quibble.

Workersunity claims Israel controls the world.
The leaders of the state of Israel are Jews.
So: if the state of Israel controls the world, then the people who control the world are Jews.

[Black Dagger]

That&#39;s true, but the word-choice is actually important in this case. Anti-semites would not hesitate in using &#39;jews&#39; in replace of &#39;israel&#39;, anti-israelism is not a restrictable offence.

[rioters bloc]

sorry, i take back my post. this just seems to be going in circles.

[Edelweiss]

Read the rules:


Do not make posts about restrictions

Topic closed.