Pakistan

[bolshevik1917]

http://www.marxist.com/Asia/pakistan_marxi...mp_elected.html (http://www.marxist.com/Asia/pakistan_marxist_mp_elected.html)

http://www.marxist.com/Asia/pakistan_manzoor_oath.html

Marxist MP comrade Manzoor is currently doing a speaking tour in the UK, check out http://www.marxist.com/Asia/ptudc_on_tour_...in_britain.html (http://www.marxist.com/Asia/ptudc_on_tour_in_britain.html)

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

Pakistan is pretty muslim fundamentalistic. A lot of Taliban and Al'Qaida are Paki's.

[Guardia Bolivariano]

Quote: from CCCP on 2:58 pm on Jan. 22, 2003
Pakistan is pretty muslim fundamentalistic. A lot of Taliban and Al'Qaida are Paki's.

This is so true.I think to many factions exist in Pakistan for a non religious revolution to triumph.

[bolshevik1917]

Or so the western ruling class would have you think. I attended the Edinburgh meeting of comrade Manzoors speaking tour, he claims religion is not as rife as it is made out to be. Many people are far too poor to get involved in worship. Manzoor is also attracting thousands of workers to his meetings after his tireless work in the trade unions.

[truthaddict11]

i would be more concerned with the taliban movement in Pakistan. over 25 % of bthe military is pro taliban

[sin miedo]

Exactly. I can't speak about the people in the street, but the military and some (actually many) in the gov't were pro-taliban (ISI anyone?) and now with all those Al Quaeda and ex-taliban that poured into the country after the fall of the Taliban in Afghanistan, a secular revolution at the moment would be close to impossible. But, if as you say, this movement is attracting many of the poor, working class, maybe something will happen. And what about the feeling towards India and the Kashmir mire? Everything I've heard and seen tells me that there is great hatred toward them in Pakistan about the Kashmir affair. A revolution in this atmosphere would not be good.

[El Brujo]

I doubt it man. Pakistan was set up by religious fanatics. When it broke away From India, all the muslim fanatics moved to or stayed in Pakistan while the Hindu's and non-fundamentalist muslims moved to or stayed in India. Most of the anti-American resistance comes from religious conservatives that think Amerika is too secularized (or CHRISTIANIZED as is Dubya's case).

[bolshevik1917]

Even if the military were pro-taliban the working class is the most mighty force on earth, equiped with the ideas of Marxism they would crush the army. Manzoor did say he always points out to people that the Indian working class has the same interests as them - and that its both ruling classes who play the two against eachother.

Remember many people there are extremely poor and desperate. Religion is solving no problems and has rapidly dropped in the number of active worshipers. Giving these people Marxist ideas is like planting a seed in very fertile soil - I have faith in the working class to remove their oppresors.

Comrade Manzoor also revealed that after he was elected the dictatorship government offered him $700,000 to step down. As the average wage in Pakistan is $25 a month you can imagine how much that is, the fact that Manzoor told them where to shove it shows the bitter determination to carry this through.

Have faith in the workers, the most powerful force on earth

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

Well know the ISI and the CIA and maybe MI6 follows him, waiting for a clear shot.

The fact that they offerd him $700,000 ,means that they see a serieus threat in him. Many of Manzoor's cooperatives will get beaten and killed. So what ever we do, we must (keep on) support Manzoor.

[Doshka]

first of all this is great...a marxist is finally recognized!! its a deffinet step up..but i dont see whats so wrong about people being relegious..personally im an anarchist and i couldnt give a shit..i dont beleive in god but i think people should have the right to if they want to...if pakistan is full of muslim fanetics than so be it..its their choice, people...

[bolshevik1917]

CCCP many of Manzoors comrades who were active leaders in the trade unions have already been killed (before and after the election) so yes, unfortunatley he is fighting in extreme danger - but you are correct we MUST give as much support as possible to this movement. The offical Pakistan trade union website is very good http://www.ptudc.org/

Doshka, religion is im my views a massive problem, but that is for another thread which I would be happy to discuss with you in. One thing comrade Manzoor did say was that a few fundamentalist groups offered a pact with the PPP (Pakistan Peoples Party) in order to overthrow the government.

The PPP put this to a vote which was unanimously rejected on the grounds that fundamentalism would prevent the chance of the setting up of a workers state (at this stage) and would degenerate into barbarism and terrorism.

The main goal of the PPP justnow is to build and grow. If Manzoor and the rest stay clear of the bullets then I have every faith in them to do so.

[TXsocialist]

It's wonderful to see the red cause gain strength!

HASTA LA VICTORIA SIEMPRE!!!!

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

Yes but those muslim fanatics think that communists, anarchists and atheists must die. So he has to be very carefull

[TXsocialist]

Yea, well, I don't think it's actually that strong there - more anti-american than pro-extremist

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

Well that anti americanism drives them towards the extremists who battle against the Americans.

[bolshevik1917]

More news on Pakistan and the PTUDC..

http://www.marxist.com/Asia/ptudc_tour_report0103.html

http://www.marxist.com/Asia/manzoor_speaks.html

[Saint-Just]

'first of all this is great...a marxist is finally recognized!! its a deffinet step up..but i dont see whats so wrong about people being relegious..personally im an anarchist and i couldnt give a shit..i dont beleive in god but i think people should have the right to if they want to...if pakistan is full of muslim fanetics than so be it..its their choice, people... '

Yes...but Marxism is about dialectics and materialism, opposing idealism and metamorphism. Religion is a direct product of metamorphism. Marxism oppsoses religion abosolutely and religion cannot coexist with Marxism. I won't explain the terms here but if you disbelieve me just read any Marx and find these terms and you'll see or I can explain them but its a little complicated as it regards philosophy.

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

I am not anti-religion, but many of the Pakistan Islamics are supportives of Osama and Osama is against par example: Communism, Marxism, Atheism, Anarchism.

BTW: I come from a muslim background, but I am atheist.

[Dhul Fiqar]

I'd just like to point out that Pakistan has a MASSIVE military, and they could easily crush any uprising. I know we all want to believe in the working class, but they're not supermen, they can't fight a military that size without support from within the military. And that doesn't look like it's about to happen.

Also, the nuclear science community in Pakistan is strangely fundamentalist.

--- G.

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

El Brujo is wrong. Pakistan was not set up by Muslim fanatics. Mr. Jinnah and Mr. Nehru acted in defence of India. Without Pakistan separating from the newly independant India, the whole subcontinent would have been in turmoil. It is in a mess now, but it would have been twice as worse had Pakistan not been created. You are just like the Imperialist Beast America's government..jumping to use the word "fundamentalist" and "islamic" in the same sentance whenever possible. Indoctrinated, you have been.

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

Quote: from Dhul Fiqar on 7:24 am on Feb. 1, 2003
I'd just like to point out that Pakistan has a MASSIVE military, and they could easily crush any uprising. I know we all want to believe in the working class, but they're not supermen, they can't fight a military that size without support from within the military. And that doesn't look like it's about to happen.

Also, the nuclear science community in Pakistan is strangely fundamentalist.

--- G.


The people are the military. The military isn't a machine, it's the people. Often military's join the revolutionary side.

[sin miedo]

And often they don't.