On hating America . . .

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

When the majority of the world absolutely despises America, its influence in their lives, and the history and meaning of its institutions, it raises some serious questions . . .
I mean, why is it that it isn't accepted as the norm? Why do average Americans not jealously cling to America for what it is? A vehicle for defending their unjust privilege? It really follows that a rational American would understand that loving America was absolutely crazy. Would a slave master love his whip and wonder why his slaves despise it?
The systems that keep Americans at doorknob-intelligence are "stupidly" effective . . .

[Jimmie Higgins]

I don't believe American workers really do have any sort of "privalege". Just look at New Orleans after Katrina. Look at the level of union struggles in the 1970s compared to now when in the 1970s workers havd a higher standard of living than they do today.

So why at this point in time (in other points of time, US workers have been more radical than they are now) do so many American workers seem to support capitalism and the US's right to dicrate the terms for the rest of the world?

I would say the main reasons are a lack of a real left opposition (there are no major social-democratic parties or even a "labour" party in the US) and lack in confidence that anything elese would be any better.

People don't like the fact that there is no decent health care and that inequality is on the rise, but they also only see unions loosing strikes and using their member's dues to pay for Democratic candidates to run for office, but once in the politican dosn't make any real gains for workers.

Most people would say that "socialism is a good idea" but they would quickly add that "it can never work or it just leads to dictatorship".

The slave analogy is an useful one: Why didn't slaves win freedom in various places 100 years before they did or another 100 years after? There were always slave revolts just as there are periodic worker struggles, riots and other kinds of rebellion in Europe and the US.

If you were a slave on a plantation and you knew that you could revolt or run away but it would not stop the whole system and there was a good chance that you would be caught and be in a worse situation, it would be harder to convince other slaves to revolt with you.

Opression always causes resistance of various shades, but this is only part of the equasion because if people don't see or think a way forward is possible they will not carry through a rebellion, they will stop short and try and find a compromise.

I think this is true on the large scale as well as the induvidual scale. If revolution isn't possible or practical, then I better find the least worst option within the system and spend my time praying to a higher power to magically solve the problems of my life for me.

[poster_child]

I think part of the reason is the fact that these Americans see freedom is the wrong way. They love their nation for being so free.. I mean come on, you can buy whatever your little black heart desires!

American capitalists TRUELY belive that they can somehow get rich and live the life of luxury. That's why they support their capitalist, right-winged government.


I'm Canadian, and it sickens me how much we are tied to the Americans, economically. There is a starbucks on every corner, yet the small, independently owned, LOCAL coffee shop owner cannot seem to compete.
There is a Wal-mart in every city over 20,000 people.
Everyone here choses to shop at the Gap.
Why??? Why don't they support the local business, the local economy, or ANYTHING BUT AMERICAN?!
Because drinking starbucks is "hip",
Wal-mart has the lowest prices (at the expense of slaves),
And anyone who's anyone shops at the Gap.

Almost everyone in Canada claims they hate Bush, yet they love being Americanized. They love to buy, buy, buy! I just cannot get my head around this.

[Severian]

Originally posted by Virgin Molotov [email protected] 27 2005, 09:24 PM
Why do average Americans not jealously cling to America for what it is? A vehicle for defending their unjust privilege? It really follows that a rational American would understand that loving America was absolutely crazy. Would a slave master love his whip and wonder why his slaves despise it?
The systems that keep Americans at doorknob-intelligence are "stupidly" effective . . .
Yeah, that does taste like bait.

Especially from a resident of imperialist Canada, it tastes like chauvinist crap.

I have to say the average Canadian middle-class leftist does very openly seem to love "his" or "her" country as "a vehicle for defending their unjust privilege," to quote you. Much more patriotic and chauvinist than the average worker in the U.S, probably because the Canadian leftist is usually more privileged than the U.S. worker!

You'd kinda climbed out of your previous level of childish trolling for a while there, why the backslide?

[Bannockburn]

I agree with what GraveDigger said. I completely agree with him. Concerning Canada, I live in Canada, and I live in the heart of the economic centre, insofar as they like to call themselves, “the motor” of Canada, ie Southern Ontario. Granted there is a McDonald's at every corner along with Wal-mart, and whatever else, and Canadians, especially in this neck of the woods are basically Americans. I remember people said to me, “oh you're American eh?” “Yes”, “Did you get a culture shock”. “Culture shock? You're more American than I am”. Yet, we must not hold Canada as innocent. The US gets a flood of Canadian goods, meats, lumber, agriculture, etc. It just seem as concrete as the Americans .

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

Originally posted by Severian+Oct 29 2005, 08:34 AM--> (Severian @ Oct 29 2005, 08:34 AM)
Virgin Molotov [email protected] 27 2005, 09:24 PM
Why do average Americans not jealously cling to America for what it is? A vehicle for defending their unjust privilege? It really follows that a rational American would understand that loving America was absolutely crazy. Would a slave master love his whip and wonder why his slaves despise it?
The systems that keep Americans at doorknob-intelligence are "stupidly" effective . . .
Yeah, that does taste like bait.

Especially from a resident of imperialist Canada, it tastes like chauvinist crap.

I have to say the average Canadian middle-class leftist does very openly seem to love "his" or "her" country as "a vehicle for defending their unjust privilege," to quote you. Much more patriotic and chauvinist than the average worker in the U.S, probably because the Canadian leftist is usually more privileged than the U.S. worker!

You'd kinda climbed out of your previous level of childish trolling for a while there, why the backslide? [/b]
Coincidently, I was a member of a sovreigntist political party that was cut from its national organization after accusing its Canadian Central Committee of National chauvenism (a position I still hold).
Certainly, I don't cling to Canada, and have rejected for many years the all-to-prevelant "left-nationalism" (in reality, crude anti-Americanism) with its focus on defending Canada from American interests. One Capitalist or another, it's not like Canada is an undeveloped colony of American Imperialism - it is an active exporter of capital and it has to be struggled against.
Yeah, I hate Canada.
This, however, all has very little to do with my original post - an attempt to get responses from American righties (the majority in this section of the forum) vis-a-vis a global phenomena of "America Hating".

Coincidently if, "the Canadian leftist is usually more privileged than the U.S. worker!" was meant as a personal stab, I feel it might be worth putting out there that I make minumum wage in a non-unionized job, working for the country's largest chain of Grocery Stores (they also have banking services, and, in Ontario, Car Insurance). I added it up and I make about 8,000 a year - better than migratory farm worker, but well below the $13,021 rural LIC as set by StatsCan.

[Severian]

If all that's true, then I really gotta ask what's up with your insults towards the "average American", aka working people in the U.S.

[dakewlguy]

Originally posted by Virgin Molotov [email protected] 28 2005, 03:24 AM
When the majority of the world absolutely despises America, its influence in their lives, and the history and meaning of its institutions, it raises some serious questions . . .
I mean, why is it that it isn't accepted as the norm? Why do average Americans not jealously cling to America for what it is? A vehicle for defending their unjust privilege? It really follows that a rational American would understand that loving America was absolutely crazy. Would a slave master love his whip and wonder why his slaves despise it?
The systems that keep Americans at doorknob-intelligence are "stupidly" effective . . .
Social identity theory states that members of a social group, no matter what that group might be, shall always be biased towards their group. They will argue their group is the superior of all social groups. They will see members of other social groups as inferior. It is nothing to do with intelligence, whatever the group, be it a nation, an ethnic group, a political group, whatever, all hold this same ingroup favouritism.
It's a basic psychological function, and is important for maintaining social cohesion and self confidence.

[Columbia]

Virgin Molotov Cocktail:

Why do hundreds of thousands of people immigrate and nationalize in the United States every year? I don't see them doing the same in India? China? (HA!) Vietnam? (Double HA!) Venezuela? Mexico?

What's your explaination for that one? Gonna take the bait?

[guerrillero]

Why do hundreds of thousands of people immigrate and nationalize in the United States every year?

Beause obviously there is a struggle where they are currently living. Believe it or not, there are benefits to being american. For one it is alot easier for Americans to get visas than it is for Latinos (assuming your columbian by your nickname) and secondly, geographical location. It is easier for Lations to migrate to the states than China, Japan, etc. You also have to focus on Immigration laws. How easy is it these days for foreigners to get Visas which allow them to work in foreign countries if they do not have family who currently reside in those countries? Is it easier for Americans to do this than the majority of the world? Is it easier to migrate to the states illegaly than other countries? Is it easier to maintain a decent sandard of living in the states while being illegal without fearing everyday you are going to get deported? Yes it is. It`s sad... it really is.

[Columbia]

None of that explains why people nationalize. Sure, they could come and live here legally and be residents, but why to they take U.S. citizenship? I know people who've done it. It's a proud moment in their lives. It's emotional, and celebrated, and deeply effects them. If we are so hated, what's that about? Nowhere else in the world will you find this the case.

[guerrillero]

It´s one thing to be proud of being nationalized as american but their are benefits to being american that many other countries don´t have. That is what I was trying to explain with the ´´visa´´ example. But does the world truly hate americans or the american govt?

[Severian]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2005, 06:48 AM
None of that explains why people nationalize. Sure, they could come and live here legally and be residents, but why to they take U.S. citizenship? I know people who've done it. It's a proud moment in their lives. It's emotional, and celebrated, and deeply effects them. If we are so hated, what's that about? Nowhere else in the world will you find this the case.
What? No, people seek citizenship other places too. Obviously.

In every country in the world, there are chauvinists who think their country is the greatest; but only in the U.S. are there chauvinists who thinks everyone else agrees with them.

There are practical advantages to U.S. citizenship over permanent residency, including more protection from deportation. Hundreds if not thousands of permanent residents are jailed and eventually deported every year, often while returning from visits abroad. It's easier to get residency for your relatives too, I'd guess.

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

Originally posted by [email protected] 30 2005, 12:20 AM
If all that's true, then I really gotta ask what's up with your insults towards the "average American", aka working people in the U.S.
Admittedly, in retrospect, that is unfair. I think America has an interest in perpetuating the idea that the "chauvinists who thinks everyone else agrees with them" actually represent a sort of popular consensus. Admittedly, I may have gotten suckered that time round. Thankyou for making me think it over.

[Fighter]

It's a proud moment in their lives. It's emotional, and celebrated, and deeply effects them.

It is not chauvinistic to say that nationalizing to become a U.S. citizen is different than becoming a Swedish or French citizen. Not to mention all of the countries where becoming a citizen is out of the question or not on the same level.

There is something to be said about the comment made by columbia. It is emotional, and people feel that they, and/or their children will become Americans. The same cannnot always be said in other places, even in Europe.

If I were to immigrate to China or Japan, and be given citizenship, it would be viewed as very unusual; an oddity always thought of as foreign. As would my children and their children. If I tried to do so in the majority of African countries, I would be severly prejudiced, and probably not be allowed to own land in many of them.

The same would be true in Mexico, or Chile, or even Venezuela.

America is different, and, because my interests are a profitless society and an end to traditional capitalism, and not the destruction of my counrty, I see things more objectively than many here.

People do assimilate, and despite prejudice and racism there is more acceptance here along these lines over time than in other countries.

Simply put, though I go to Mexico and have Mexican friends, I would rather be a Mexican living in the U.S. than the third generation Itlaian/Spanish "white girl" that I am, trying to nationalize as a Mexican citizen. An African has it easier and has more possibilities for equal treatment nationalizing as a U.S. citizen than the reverse.

Of course I don't know this for sure, as I only base this on what my friends tell me and on a certain amount of logic. This is not saying that others would be prejudice to me, but it is about saying how difficult it would be for me to "fit in" to those countries, compared to their fitting in easier in the USA.

[Severian]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14 2005, 12:09 AM
It is not chauvinistic to say that nationalizing to become a U.S. citizen is different than becoming a Swedish or French citizen.
But you never do get around to saying how.

Your generalizations about the U.S. and other countries are all based on nothing.


and, because my interests are a profitless society and an end to traditional capitalism, and not the destruction of my counrty,

If you're here to discuss and not troll, please stop setting up stupid straw men.

[Fighter]

Severian,

I made several comments which you have called mere generalization. Obviously I don't have statistics to back up what I've written, but I don't see you discussing any of the points I've made, and merely dismissing them.

Why is that?

Also, this thread is about "hating America", and it seemed to invite comments along those lines. Is it your argument that to be revolutionary requires you to "hate" a particular people?



poster_child,

Don't the people in Canada have the power to prevent WalMart and StarBucks from building in their areas?

In Los Angeles, there's a successful effort by both the Left and the city council to prevent WalMart from building anywhere.

Also, why do Canadians visit such places? Couldn't they use their dollars and go to traditional Canadian businesses?

[STI]

India? China? (HA!) Vietnam? (Double HA!) Venezuela? Mexico?


Wow. Great. People don't move to second- and third-world countries. What's your point? Of course people want to go somewhere with technological advancement and better quality of life, so they come to the first world. It's not an "America" thing, it's a "Developed World" thing. It's a lot easier to live somewhere if you're a citizen, so it's a logical move.

[Columbia]

It's not an "America" thing, it's a "Developed World" thing.

It is SO an American thing.

One of the things that makes it easy to sleep at night knowing the radical left will never succeed is their tunnel-mind view about life. Their presuption that no one WANTS to live in America, but merely goes there because life has given them no alternative, is a prime example of how they can't see the world in perspective.

Too bad. Many people here, based on their comments, demonstrate great intelligence. But it means nothing without being able to be objective and honest about people.

Oh well. Makes it easier for us when you all try and show up with your revolution of the tens of thousands, and we show up to meet you with our tens of millions.

[JKP]

Any movement to abolish wage slavery must involve the majority of the masses.

I want everyone to take part in fighting for freedom.

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2005, 02:51 AM
Oh well. Makes it easier for us when you all try and show up with your revolution of the tens of thousands, and we show up to meet you with our tens of millions.
You really have a skewed perspective of the relative size of the chauvenist first-world upper-class vis-a-vis the number of people in the rest of the world (including the seething mass of discontent first-worlders sitting under you - yeah, they exist).