FOX bashes Cuba during World Series

[Tekun]

I was watching the World Series game 2 on Sunday, and Jose Contreras was pitching
Well it seems that Mr Contreras defected from Cuba leaving behind his family (though his wife and children left in early 2004)

During his stint in Cuba, he was considered the best pitcher in Cuba and he defeated an American baseball team during the Pan Am games
To acknowledge this, Castro nicknamed him "El Titan de Bronce" after a great Cuban warrior
And honored him in front of the Cuban ppl

Well, despite the love and admiration by all of Cuba towards Contreras he abandoned his team in Mexico and was quickly signed by the New York Yankees for $32million (the richest team in MLB)
He said his dream was to play in the majors, sure....more like his dream was to get paid like a major
He slapped Cuba in the face, after all the honors that were bestowed upon him by Fidel and the Cuban gov
He abandoned the cause for $$

Not only that but during one of his slumps where his pitching was disastrous , the New York Yankees firted if not undertook the idea of sending him back to Cuba in a raft - just for pitching bad!
The Yankee owner wanted him sent back for his lack of performance and I believe that they got to the shore but decided against it


Well back to the game, during one of the innings the announcer Joe Buck made some comments that pissed me off

In a disdainful and arrogant tone, he basically ridiculed Castro for not allowing Cuba to listen to the game or to even mention his name
By his ignorant and biased description, a random person might believe that Cuba was back in the stone age
He actually said that the Cuban ppl would be "riding" around on horses looking for a "transmittor"

As a favor to his capitalistic bosses, Buck ridiculed Cuba for its limitations
Failing to mention that Cuba has its own baseball league that can be watched by all

As an announcer, he should refrain from taking a political stance
Yet, this idiot intoxicated by baseball's "all american" sentiments believes its his job to expose Cuba

You announce sports on a racist mothaphukin station, ur not a politician and u don't know shit about Cuba - imperialist dummy!!

Its this type of shit that pisses me off comrades

[DisIllusion]

Amazing what capitalist greed can do to somebody isn't it? You get this racist crap on the media all the time, it's all owned by big corporations run by the bourgeois. I'm suprised that a major league team would do this though, it might actually offend some of their fans and might actually interfere with their income. Oh Noes.

[Guerrilla22]

I can't wait untill Cuba kicks the shit out everyone, especially the US in the upcoming world cup of baseball that will be played next spring.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

They just crushed the US in September and won their 25th title.

But, on the original topic, fuck Jose Contreras and fuck Joe Buck.

[chebol]

Picture this:

Sydney Olympics 2000.
Cuba vs USA in baseball
Several dozen aussie socialists turn up, faces painted with cuban flag, waving big flags, selling HEAPS of small paper ones to just about everyone (no-one wants to support the Yanks)
Random people turn up dressed as Fidel...... (??????)
Game gets underway.
Cuba thumping US.
Friend of mine goes berko, rips off his shirt and runs screaming around edge of field with huge cuban flag- gets on SkySports, live.
Cuba winning, we start chanting "we kicked your arse at the bay of pigs, and we'll kick your arse tonight!"
Bunch of young, macho yanks behind us not very impressed, start singing national anthem
We start chanting louder.
Cuba wins.
After the match, young (drunk) whipper-snapper septic tanks decide to confront us. We, jumping up and down, have everyone else crowding around- on our side- as we chant "We kicked your arse at the Bay of Pigs, and we kicke your arse tonight!"

Viva Cuba!

[barret]

Could it just be that because Jose got a taste of money he decided to disrespect his own country? Did the money make him that ignorant to how people really live? It makes sense that comming to a capitalist country and being guarenteed $1,000,000 or more your going to live happily. I don't think he realizes how about 80% of the american population doesn't have a million dollars to spend, and that unlike the United States everyone is educated, and has actual health care.

[wet blanket]

Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2005, 03:12 AM

Its this type of shit that pisses me off comrades
Baseball aside, you're lying to yourself if you think Cuba is above any public criticism.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

What right does the U.S. have to criticize anyone?

[ComradeOm]

Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2005, 05:04 AM
Could it just be that because Jose got a taste of money he decided to disrespect his own country? Did the money make him that ignorant to how people really live? It makes sense that comming to a capitalist country and being guarenteed $1,000,000 or more your going to live happily. I don't think he realizes how about 80% of the american population doesn't have a million dollars to spend, and that unlike the United States everyone is educated, and has actual health care.
I'm sure he knows that, he just couldn't give a flying fuck. Once he gets a slice of the pie he couldn't care less. Remember its greed that greases the wheels of capitalism.

[Colombia]

Why are they not allowed to watch MLB games in Cuba?

[bolshevik butcher]

Are cuban cameras aloud into the U$?

[SonofRage]

Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2005, 11:12 PM


Well, despite the love and admiration by all of Cuba towards Contreras he abandoned his team in Mexico and was quickly signed by the New York Yankees for $32million (the richest team in MLB)
He said his dream was to play in the majors, sure....more like his dream was to get paid like a major
He slapped Cuba in the face, after all the honors that were bestowed upon him by Fidel and the Cuban gov
He abandoned the cause for $$
What "cause" would that be? He left one capitalist country for another. People should be free to travel wherever they want. Fuck Cuban nationalism.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

The cause would be socialism. Some people understand what it is in the real world, instead of following idealist "theories" that haven't, and won't, lead to any real change.

[Coggeh]

I agree with sonofrage to some extent i have to admit , but to leave behind family , dishonour your country leave for the sole reason of money and go to the most hated country in Cuba their most hated enemies U.$.A is a slap in the face for all Cuban's who strided in thier honour of saying they defeated the most powerful "empire" ever as clearly state by Fidel himself! now forget this greedy backstaber and concentrate on men of houner like Felix Savon the boxer who turned down a fight with tyson because he didnt want to fight for money ,by the way it is clear felix is better than mike he won the olimpics 3times for Cuba in the heavyweight division a honour none of the last 8holders of the WBO title can put down on their profile's!

[bcbm]

Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2005, 10:11 PM
I can't wait untill Cuba kicks the shit out everyone, especially the US in the upcoming world cup of baseball that will be played next spring.
I can't wait until Cuba and the rest of South America invade the US and establish a communist government!

Oh wait, that was Red Dawn. Nevermind.

[Tekun]

Originally posted by wet blanket+Oct 27 2005, 08:02 AM--> (wet blanket @ Oct 27 2005, 08:02 AM)
[email protected] 27 2005, 03:12 AM

Its this type of shit that pisses me off comrades
Baseball aside, you're lying to yourself if you think Cuba is above any public criticism. [/b]
I realize that Cuba will be criticized by American capitalists, but a baseball game is not the place to spew racist and arrogant misinformation!

Joe Buck is a nobody who should refrain from spitting capitalistic rhetoric while he is announcing baseball games to all of America
^He's basically inundating ignorant Americans with subliminal bigotry

I don't mind them criticizing Cuba, but they should never criticize Cuba with a nobody during a sports match


BTW, Felix Savon is a great man, props to him!

[SonofRage]

Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2005, 01:24 PM
The cause would be socialism. Some people understand what it is in the real world, instead of following idealist "theories" that haven't, and won't, lead to any real change.
I know what the Marxist-Leninist version of "socialism" has been in the real world: state capitalism.

Is that really what you're fighting for? Do you really want a totalitarian State running your life? People aren't even free to leave if they want.

That's certainly not what I'm fighting for.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

The difference is, what I'm fighting for, communism and a much better world, is not attainable through factionalizing the reformist SP-USA and joining unions that haven't had an influence for a fucking century. You can "direct action" all you want, my choice is revolution. A revolution which will overthrow the capitalist system and be able to defend itself against imperialism (which it WILL have to do). I used to be into this sort of shit when I was younger.

I was a card carrying member of the IWW (not that I'm against it now, I just know its limitations), an "anti-authoritarian syndicalist", etc. But a realistic and rational study of theory and material conditions slowly but surely lead me away from it. Hey, it would be great if we could all pay $6 a month dues, break some windows of a recruitment center and advance to communism in a week .. but we can't.

And Cuba is not totalitarian, and in fact is the most democratic nation in the world. People are free to leave. Ever heard of the Port of Mariel? How about the 20,000 - 30,000 visas granted each year? What they are not free to do however is return as citizens.

And, even if Cuba was a completely totalitarian police state with no democracy at all (which it's not at all. Visit and study it like I have, go on a work brigade), I'd still prefer it to what we have here now. I was born, and currently live in the third world. Many don't have food or clothes, most don't have jobs, 30%+ can't read or write, and this is the better half of the island! Cuba beats us in every single social measure.

I don't think you, as an American, or anyone for that matter should push for a duplication of the Cuban model in their own country. Even if they tried it wouldn't work. Revolution is an organic process that comes forth from objective material conditions, and this is why the group I belong to doesn't uphold any particular doctrines or assert the neccessity of a vanguard, etc. What we do however, is learn and build from the successes and failures of the last 200 years of the workers' movement. Take what was right, leave what was wrong.

It might very well [probably?] be that the revolution in the U.S. will occur after much of the third world has established its economic and political independence and imperialism will be on the way out. In that case I could definently see that there would be much less need for the "traditional" roles of vanguards and state organization.

Cuba isn't perfect, but one thing is for certain, it's the best thing we've had so far.

[SonofRage]

Interesting how you start off there completely off the topic.

The fact is that Cuba is nothing but a State Capitalist Welfare State. Socialism isn't about being fed and housed and having healthcare. You can get that in prison.

I don't know how you can call a country where workers can't even have independent trade unions a socialist country.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

The workers control the means of production, and operate them in their own interest. There for Cuba = socialist.

Or, let's go through the list of measures that Marx and Engels called for in the Communist Manifesto:

1. Abolition of public property in land and application of all rents of lands to public purposes. Yes.

2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax. Yes.

3. Abolition of all right of inheritance. Yes.

4. Confiscation of the land of all emigrants and rebels. Yes.

5. Centralization of credit in the hands of the state, by means of a national bank with state capital and a exclusive monopoly. Yes.

6. Centralization of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the state. Yes.

7. Extension of factories and means of production owned by the state; the bringing into cultivation of waste lands, and improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan. Yes.

8. Equal liability of all to labor. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture. Yes.

9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of the distinction between town and country, by a more equitable distribution of the population over the country. Yes.

10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children's factory labor in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production, etc. Yes.


Interesting how you start off there completely off the topic.

Interesting that you didn't respond to any of the content of the post.

And it was completely on-topic. You said "Is that really what you're fighting for? Do you really want a totalitarian State running your life? People aren't even free to leave if they want.

That's certainly not what I'm fighting for. " And I responded from there.

[SonofRage]

I'm not a Marxist, so I don't really care about that little "top 10" of yours. To say that the workers of Cuba control the means of production is a sad joke. That's all in the hands of the State.

I did respond to the content of your post. Like I said, a welfare state is not socialism. You could benefit from reading The Cuban Revolution: A Critical Perspective (http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_Archives/bright/dolgoff/cubanrevolution/toc.html) by Sam Dolgoff.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

I'm not a Marxist, so I don't really care about that little "top 10" of yours.

You asked how I could call it socialist, so I told you.


To say that the workers of Cuba control the means of production is a sad joke. That's all in the hands of the State.

The Republic of Cuba is a workers' state, so saying that the means of production are in the hands of the state, but not the workers, is the real joke.

In your analysis, please tell me who makes up the capitalist class in Cuba.


I did respond to the content of your post. Like I said, a welfare state is not socialism.

Well since you already know everything and are above debate an obvious question emerges; why are you here?


You could benefit from reading The Cuban Revolution: A Critical Perspective by Sam Dolgoff.

You could benefit from traveling to Cuba and studying it instead of relying soley on books that are critical of it.

[SonofRage]

"workers state" is a contradiction and a farce. The State beaurocracy controls the means of production and serves the role of a new ruling class (the techno-managerial, or coordinator class if you prefer). Power is not in the hands of the working class.

Tom Wetzel has written some good stuff on this: http://www.workersolidarity.org/replytomacsimoin.html

I've spoken to people who've been to and have lived in Cuba. If I lived there, I'd be imprisoned.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Fuck Tom Wetzel. Who's life has Tom Wetzel improved?

But, as the flaws of the "theories" that you uphold have been pointed out and debated in numerous other threads (none of which I've seen you comment) I won't continue this.

[Led Zeppelin]

Fuck Tom Wetzel. Who's life has Tom Wetzel improved?

That is not an argument, who's life did Lenin improve pre-revolution?

And is it required that you've "improved someones life" to make your criticisms valid?

[Marat]

Any Cuban team can beat any of the major teams in the U.S. period.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

That is not an argument,

You're right, it's a statement.


And is it required that you've "improved someones life" to make your criticisms valid?

Nope. But abstract ultra-left criticisms are worthless; just like Tom Wetzel.

[danielfolsom]

wow, i'm starting to have second thoughts about this site. Yes I am communist. No I do not think that communist countries are perfect. I believe that while the comments were out of line, he does make a point depending on what he said was true. If Castro did not ALLOW Cubans to watch, than that should be considered wrong, that is a restriction on human rights and personally i am appaled. If the game was JUST NOT TELEVISED, well memo to anouncer - go fuck yourself.

[Led Zeppelin]

You're right, it's a statement.


Correction; a worthless statement.


Nope. But abstract ultra-left criticisms are worthless; just like Tom Wetzel.

True, but you discard all criticisms of Cuba, at least you have up until now, so what criticisms are "acceptable" to you? No criticisms at all right?

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

I have don't have time for your childish baiting. I don't disregard all criticisms of Cuba, just illegitimate ones. The end.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

If Castro did not ALLOW Cubans to watch, than that should be considered wrong, that is a restriction on human rights and personally i am appaled.

What "human rights" would those be? The right to watch the world series? :rolleyes:

Are you "appaled" that most people of the world are poor and hungry? Are you appaled that the US has 3.5 million homeless people (and Cuba has zero)?

And I've really had enough of this nonsense about "Castro this, Castro that". Do you really think the president of a republic with 11 million people personally dictates television programing??

[Led Zeppelin]

I don't disregard all criticisms of Cuba, just illegitimate ones. The end.


Yes, and you consider all criticisms to be illegitimate, therefore you discard all criticisms.

That's called logical conclusion, you should look into it.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

You're right that's what I do. It's because I'm actually a paid agent of the Cuban Ministry of Information. :rolleyes:

[Tekun]

The fact of the matter remains that some ppl are ignorant to the reality of life in the third world, and as a result they criticize Cuba's system
Its not until u live in the third world and suffer its misery, that u realize that Cuba despite its limitations, offers its ppl a better life than other nations
As Companero said, to the third world, Cuba is the best thing out there

I'm from a third world nation, that see's thousands of babies die as a result of the rampant malnutrition
Guatemala suffered a 36yr civil war that left 200,000 indigenous ppl dead as a result of murderous gov troops and paramilitaries
30% of the population are illiterate
And the majority of its natural resources are owned by American companies

So, Cuba might not be the US, but it sure beats living in impoverished third world nations

I'm convinced that the majority of the world's poor, rather eat a hot meal given to them by the state, than watch a trivial baseball game

[danielfolsom]

Originally posted by [email protected] 30 2005, 09:16 AM

If Castro did not ALLOW Cubans to watch, than that should be considered wrong, that is a restriction on human rights and personally i am appaled.

What "human rights" would those be? The right to watch the world series? :rolleyes:

Are you "appaled" that most people of the world are poor and hungry? Are you appaled that the US has 3.5 million homeless people (and Cuba has zero)?

And I've really had enough of this nonsense about "Castro this, Castro that". Do you really think the president of a republic with 11 million people personally dictates television programing??
Restricting airwaves, not allowing people to choose what they want to watch, umm thats a) isolation and b) yes i am appaled that he won't even allow the watching, are you saying that the government should have complete control of televised programs?

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

I want to watch Fidel Castro speeches and documentaries of Che and Ho Chi Minh's lives. Guess what?
I've never seen one on television, ever. Are my "human rights" being restricted?

Don't be so naive. Most people in the world don't even have food let alone a television, Fidel doesn't control television programing, and yes in a workers' state (which Cuba is) the state (the workers as an organized force) should and do have complete control of everything. That's what the dictatorship of the proletariat is, the rule of the working class.

Perpetuating the same ideas that exist under capitalism is no way to transcend it.

[danielfolsom]

Originally posted by [email protected] 30 2005, 09:22 PM
I want to watch Fidel Castro speeches and documentaries of Che and Ho Chi Minh's lives. Guess what?
I've never seen one on television, ever. Are my "human rights" being restricted?

Don't be so naive. Most people in the world don't even have food let alone a television, Fidel doesn't control television programing, and yes in a workers' state (which Cuba is) the state (the workers as an organized force) should and do have complete control of everything. That's what the dictatorship of the proletariat is, the rule of the working class.

Perpetuating the same ideas that exist under capitalism is no way to transcend it.
Its all a mater of having the option, you might not have the financial capability to, or you might choose not to, but having the option should be allowed.

[Amusing Scrotum]

Its all a mater of having the option, you might not have the financial capability to, or you might choose not to, but having the option should be allowed.

Maybe, just maybe, the Cubans' don't want to watch the World Series and they prefer their own domestic baseball.

Anyway, America has a trade embargo against Cuba, so I would imagine Cuba couldn't pay MLB to show the World Series in Cuba. Alternatively, been as it costs quite a bit of money to broadcast the World Series, the Cuban Government could have decided that money could be better spent in other areas. You'd definitely have something to say if Cuba was spending money on broadcasting the World Series whilst people were starving.

[Correa]

Unless you are rich Cuba is the best place to live in Latin America hands down.

[black magick hustla]

Actually, economically, the average mexican is better off than a cuban.

However, it is said that cuba was very economically comfortable when the socialist block was still powerful.

[Correa]

Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2005, 06:01 AM
Actually, economically, the average mexican is better off than a cuban.

However, it is said that cuba was very economically comfortable when the socialist block was still powerful.
Life in Cuba was indeed "better" before the colapse of the Soviet Union. However this is one of Cuba's greater achivements. I'm sure the US tought it would be the end of Cuba's freedom, but as we can see Cuba remains a free nation. Are you certain the average Mexican lives a better life than the average Cuban? Last time I checked Mexico had homeless and medically uninsured citizens. Can you produce some kind of evidence to support your claim?

[Tekun]

Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2005, 01:01 PM
Actually, economically, the average mexican is better off than a cuban.

However, it is said that cuba was very economically comfortable when the socialist block was still powerful.
Source?

Bkuz, as far as Im concerned, therez more Mexicans immigrating to the US than Cubans

^This only reiterates my belief that for the majority of Mexicans, life in Mexico is anything but better than life in Cuba

In addition, lots of my buddies are from Mexico and they were forced to emigrate to the US, and in their words Mexico's a "shithole"

[TheReadMenace]

Just wait till the football games.