2,000 US soldiers dead

[bunk]

How do you feel about it. The endless violence is very depressing, i won't condemn anyone from celebrating as i think happened at the 1,000 mark. I just don't know how it's gonna end.
While i hope that the coalitions presence is actually drawing fire and encouraging the conflict i think there will still be a conflcit when the coalition leaves.

[Tekun]

It "sad" how they're brainwashed to fight for US capitalists, they're nothing but capitalistic agents
They know the type of work they're gonna perform when they go in, there very aware of the evil that they represent
^And yet, they continue to fight

As far as Im concerned, they're getting what any usurper would deserve
If they wanna invade, then get ready to suffer resistance and retaliation

If someone invaded the US, the majority of the population would be doing the same thing that the insurgents are doing<~fighting for survival and sovereingty&#33;

[Atlas Swallowed]

I am more concerned with how many Iraqis and Afghanistanis have been murdered. The Iraqis and Afghanastanis did not voulenteer to be bombed, shot at, and have thier countries invaded. The soldiers are the invaders. They are better supplied and have superior arms to those being invaded. Most of those that are murdered as in most wars are unarmed civillians. Sympathy should be for them, not for the fools who were duped into killing people who were never a threat to them, because of their misguided bullshit patriotism.

The "insurgents" are true freedom fighters.

[Led Zeppelin]

Great news, I&#39;m in a personal crisis at the moment, but this made my day.

http://www.ironpilotwb.com/in_progress/leadingedge/products/CF100-225%20Celebrate%20Freedom.jpg

[Bolshevist]

This is great. When can we hope to see the 10.000 mark? :)

[YKTMX]

I want to see an end to the occupation, but I&#39;m certainly not "pleased" so many young American soldiers have been killed.

[Intifada]

When will the Americans learn?

I am more upset for the Iraqis, who have no security and a ruined country.

[Amusing Scrotum]

What you have to remember is that a lot, if not most of these soldiers come from working class backgrounds, have received a very poor education, have been subjected to constant propaganda about how great America is and have had very little in terms of job opportunities, quite a few of them would have had a career choice of welfare, drug dealing, petty crime or the army.

So before everyone starts indulging themselves in a spate of mutual masturbation, just remember these soldiers are products of the system.

[fernando]

Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2005, 02:58 PM
I want to see an end to the occupation, but I&#39;m certainly not "pleased" so many young American soldiers have been killed.
If you take a look at the Vietnam War you can see that the Yankees only seem to get it that they have to fuck off when you kill enough of them. Sure the Americans killed probably waaaaaaay many more Vietnamese, but the Vietnamese fought for their freedom, as are the Iraqi insurgents (well some of them). They will not lose morale because of losses, the American public however does.

[YKTMX]

If you take a look at the Vietnam War you can see that the Yankees only seem to get it that they have to fuck off when you kill enough of them.

The Vietcong never did, and never could, defeat the Americans miliatarily. The Vietnamese resistance was brave and effective, but, if they had had the chance, the Americans would have beaten them eventually.

The reason they pulled out was because the anti-war movement was a danger to American capital in general. And crucically, that anti-war feeling started to really ingrain itself on the soldiers themselves - "fragging".

[Free Palestine]

What you have to remember is that a lot, if not most of these soldiers come from working class backgrounds, have received a very poor education, have been subjected to constant propaganda about how great America is and have had very little in terms of job opportunities, quite a few of them would have had a career choice of welfare, drug dealing, petty crime or the army.

So before everyone starts indulging themselves in a spate of mutual masturbation, just remember these soldiers are products of the system.

Tough situation buddy, but you&#39;re on the wrong side, and deserve to die. That is not an excuse. At the end of the day they are still serving in an army of occupation and oppression. Rationalize, justify, or equivocate all you want - nothing will change this. So before you start indulging yourself in a spate of imperialism-apologist, reactionary bullshit, just remember the German soldiers in World War II stationed at the death camps were "products of the system" too.

Lets see 2,000 , 4,000 , 100,000 more&#33;

[YKTMX]

Lets see 2,000 , 4,000 , 100,000 more&#33;


Why? For what purpose?

[farleft]

Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2005, 09:53 AM
How do you feel about it. The endless violence is very depressing, i won&#39;t condemn anyone from celebrating as i think happened at the 1,000 mark. I just don&#39;t know how it&#39;s gonna end.
While i hope that the coalitions presence is actually drawing fire and encouraging the conflict i think there will still be a conflcit when the coalition leaves.
Seeing impirialists being killed is never depressing.

The more dead the better.

[FleasTheLemur]

I fell a little worried that all these death might ultimately force my government to start a draft.

[somebodywhowantedtoleaveandnotcomeback]

Originally posted by Atlas [email protected] 26 2005, 02:46 PM
I am more concerned with how many Iraqis and Afghanistanis have been murdered.
Approximately 25.000 to 30.000 Iraqi civilians were killed during this war.
Dunno about Afghanistan..

[violencia.Proletariat]

Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2005, 12:51 PM
What you have to remember is that a lot, if not most of these soldiers come from working class backgrounds, have received a very poor education, have been subjected to constant propaganda about how great America is and have had very little in terms of job opportunities, quite a few of them would have had a career choice of welfare, drug dealing, petty crime or the army.

So before everyone starts indulging themselves in a spate of mutual masturbation, just remember these soldiers are products of the system.
welfare? petty crime? no jobs? sounds like they are lower class. you know what, when your lower class you see what the rich person does to you. if they come from those neighborhoods and see that shit, yet still volunteer for the army, then they would most likely do the same thing if their fellow neighbors were resisting the state, what do you call those people? oh yeah reactionaries

[Amusing Scrotum]

Tough situation buddy, but you&#39;re on the wrong side, and deserve to die. That is not an excuse. At the end of the day they are still serving in an army of occupation and oppression. Rationalize, justify, or equivocate all you want - nothing will change this. So before you start indulging yourself in a spate of imperialism-apologist, reactionary bullshit, just remember the German soldiers in World War II stationed at the death camps were "products of the system" too.

I am not saying they are serving the interests of the imperialists, that would be an incredibly daft statement. What I am saying that it is the nature of the ruling class to send the working class off to fight its battles. The ruling class decieves them into thinking they are serving a just cause through constant propaganda and blatant scare mongering. Then the ruling class committs the ultimate act of exploitation, it swaps their life for more money.

These men are workers&#39; who have been mutated by the system into hardened remorseles killers who instead of just having the value of their labour stolen off them by the Capitalists, have their lives stolen. I feel incredible sympathy towards these men and their families.

I fail to see how this constitues imperialist apologism or reactionary bullshit. Please refrain from such childish insults in future, they may make you feel like a big man but in reality they achieve nothing except lowering the standard of debate.


Lets see 2,000 , 4,000 , 100,000 more&#33;

What exactly will this acomplish?

[Jimmie Higgins]

Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2005, 05:21 PM

If you take a look at the Vietnam War you can see that the Yankees only seem to get it that they have to fuck off when you kill enough of them.

The Vietcong never did, and never could, defeat the Americans miliatarily. The Vietnamese resistance was brave and effective, but, if they had had the chance, the Americans would have beaten them eventually.

The reason they pulled out was because the anti-war movement was a danger to American capital in general. And crucically, that anti-war feeling started to really ingrain itself on the soldiers themselves - "fragging".
For all the people who want to sound really radical and say "The more dead the better" you should re-read this post I quoted. Be serious about ending the occupation and realize that 2,000 dead US means tens of thousands of dead Iraqis. Ten thousand dead US troops means hundreds of thousands of dead Iraqis.

Simply killing US troops is not enough to stop the imperialists alone since it&#39;s not their necks that are bing risked. Rumsfeld and Bush or whatever Democrat is elected in 2008 and promises to "fight the war better (or with a &#39;secrect plan for withdrawl&#39; like Nixon)" don&#39;t care if it takes 100 thousand dead US troops and a million dead Iraqis if they get to remake the middle east in their image and their intrests.

How is it an apology for imperilaism to recognize that the weak and vunerable point in any imperilaist army is the working-class grunts sent to fight, die, and kill to make a systyem they have no intrest in or benifit from stronger?

[Amusing Scrotum]

welfare? petty crime? no jobs? sounds like they are lower class. you know what, when your lower class you see what the rich person does to you. if they come from those neighborhoods and see that shit, yet still volunteer for the army, then they would most likely do the same thing if their fellow neighbors were resisting the state, what do you call those people? oh yeah reactionaries

Oh yes because the majority of the lower and working class thinks this way. Get a grip. The majority of the lower and working classes see no problem with the system. It is therefore our job to inform them of the faults of Capitalism, not cheer loudly when the Capitalists send them off to die.

Tell me, why the fuck are you a Communist, because you don&#39;t seem to like the oppressed very much.

[bcbm]

Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2005, 11:58 AM
I fell a little worried that all these death might ultimately force my government to start a draft.
Let them. It would finally get the College Republicans to put their money where their mouth is.


Tell me, why the fuck are you a Communist, because you don&#39;t seem to like the oppressed very much.

The Iraqi people are more oppressed than the soldiers who kill them. When it comes down to it, I&#39;m going to support the Iraqi killing the imperialist in his home, even if they&#39;re both poor.

[Amusing Scrotum]

The Iraqi people are more oppressed than the soldiers who kill them. When it comes down to it, I&#39;m going to support the Iraqi killing the imperialist in his home, even if they&#39;re both poor.

I didn&#39;t say the Iraqi people are not oppressed, don&#39;t put words into my mouth. Especially if they are false statements. Also, it is useful to realise what is happening in Iraq is the ruling class dividing the working class. We need to oppose this and try and create unity within the working class and the working class killing each other, whether American killing Iraqi or Iraqi killing American, is not something I can support as a person or a Marxist.

[violencia.Proletariat]

Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2005, 02:18 PM

welfare? petty crime? no jobs? sounds like they are lower class. you know what, when your lower class you see what the rich person does to you. if they come from those neighborhoods and see that shit, yet still volunteer for the army, then they would most likely do the same thing if their fellow neighbors were resisting the state, what do you call those people? oh yeah reactionaries

Oh yes because the majority of the lower and working class thinks this way. Get a grip. The majority of the lower and working classes see no problem with the system. It is therefore our job to inform them of the faults of Capitalism, not cheer loudly when the Capitalists send them off to die.

Tell me, why the fuck are you a Communist, because you don&#39;t seem to like the oppressed very much.
they think its the right way to go? oh yeah, maybe thats why the lower class votes in all the elections trying to find the candidate that wants to send them all to war :lol: i think redstar mentioned that lots of the soldiers in iraq are from army families, and i would have to agree. most soldiers i see on tv are white not black. they probably come from republican families. if its the only way to go for the lower class why are recruitment levels falling? its because they are running out of kids from army families. there lots of mediocre shitty jobs to do, you know the ones that we leave for "the mexicans." now i dont care how much education you have but thats the logical choice than to be in a country where people will do anything in their power, including blowing themselves up, to kill you.


i dont like the opressed? hmmm, if that were the case then id be a proponent of the draft, which im not. these arent draftees, they are volunteers, i have less respect for them.

[Intifada]

I have said it before and will say it again, why should we sympathise with soldiers who have the ability to choose not to fight, and follow the example set by many conscientious objectors?

I realise that in some cases situations do not permit them much choice, but the fact that they are fighting for the imperialists speaks for itself.

[Ownthink]

http://img486.imageshack.us/img486/5866/resistancemural0ft.gif

Made my fucking day. May more death be rained down upon these imperialists&#33;

[Urban Guerrilla]

Where do you guys find this stuff? :che:

[Amusing Scrotum]

they think its the right way to go? oh yeah, maybe thats why the lower class votes in all the elections trying to find the candidate that wants to send them all to war i think redstar mentioned that lots of the soldiers in iraq are from army families, and i would have to agree. most soldiers i see on tv are white not black. they probably come from republican families. if its the only way to go for the lower class why are recruitment levels falling? its because they are running out of kids from army families. there lots of mediocre shitty jobs to do, you know the ones that we leave for "the mexicans." now i dont care how much education you have but thats the logical choice than to be in a country where people will do anything in their power, including blowing themselves up, to kill you.


i dont like the opressed? hmmm, if that were the case then id be a proponent of the draft, which im not. these arent draftees, they are volunteers, i have less respect for them.

Show me figures that the majority of soldiers in Iraq fighting in the front line are from military families and maybe then I will change my opinion. I could care less if pampered rich boy who joined the army in some high ranking position got killed, but they don&#39;t. They are in the green zone, hiding behind bodyguards.

Also I don&#39;t think it much matters if their families vote Republican or Democrat or even if they do. Plenty of working class people in America vote Republican and what you are saying amounts to "Well fuck &#39;em unless they vote Democrat." Well comrade, the Democrats do fuck all for the working class as well.

Also I never said they didn&#39;t have a choice, what I said is the appalling conditions they grow up in and the constant bombardment of propaganda the ruling class subjects them too. Leaves them in a position where they think they are doing the right thing. They have been completely manipulated by the ruling class. We need to try and make them see that they have been lied to, not cheering when they get killed in Iraq. The ruling class doesn&#39;t really give a shit how many soldiers die, as long as they are making money. We need to make the soldiers see that they are being exploited therefore making them unwilling to carry out the objectives of the ruling class. This is how the occupation will end as how good the insurgency is at killing soldiers doesn&#39;t really bother those in power because they don&#39;t care.

[bcbm]

Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2005, 12:50 PM
I didn&#39;t say the Iraqi people are not oppressed, don&#39;t put words into my mouth. Especially if they are false statements.
I wasn&#39;t putting words in your mouth, I was responding to your statement about someone not liking the oppressed because they support the people killing the yankees.




Also, it is useful to realise what is happening in Iraq is the ruling class dividing the working class. We need to oppose this and try and create unity within the working class and the working class killing each other, whether American killing Iraqi or Iraqi killing American, is not something I can support as a person or a Marxist.

You can&#39;t form class unity with people who enforce class divisions at the barrel of a gun. I have solidarity with soldiers who actively resist their own plight by fragging officers, sabotaging or going AWOL. As for the rest? Fuck &#39;em.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2005, 06:57 PM
I have said it before and will say it again, why should we sympathise with soldiers who have the ability to choose not to fight, and follow the example set by many conscientious objectors?

I realise that in some cases situations do not permit them much choice, but the fact that they are fighting for the imperialists speaks for itself.
You should also read the accounts of the people who applied for CO status and their lives were made horrible by their superiors and they were "made an example of". Despite this the number of CO applications has increaded dramatically during this war. We should support them and realize that the objectors probably represent a greater number of lower-ranking people in the military who&#39;ve recieved or even applied for CO status.

US grunts are not the imperilaists and their deaths are not so much as a speed-bump to the real imperilaists. The soldiers are the tools of imperialism but history has shown that they can be turned against the imperialists and if the tools refuse, the people who need thoes tools can not carry out their deadly goals.

Iraqis should by all means defend themselves against imperialism and this means killing troops and blowing up tanks and vehicles, but this alone is not enough to stop the desire of the ruling class. So ultimately it will take the Iraqi resistance as well as resistance from working americans inside and outside the military who have the power to smash the gears of the US war machine and make it a great deal easier for the Iraqis to defeat the US.

[NE_Liberal]

Death of soldiers leads to poverty, broken famalies and other things that are bad for society. I am talking about soldiers on all sides. End the war, end the unnecessary killing.

[Master Che]

When will the US reach the 200,000 mark? The best news i can possiblly hear is the US losing the war and moving out of the middle east.

[Xvall]

Originally posted by Urban [email protected] 26 2005, 07:19 PM
Where do you guys find this stuff? :che:
Internet(s).

[Amusing Scrotum]

As of yet I have not seen anyone express an opinion about why more dead American soldiers actually accomplishes anything. America will not pull out after 2000 deaths anymore than it would have pulled out after 1000 deaths were reached. Been as the death count will not stop the occupation, what possible benefits will an even higher death toll achieve?

[Chuck]

Yes. I enjoy it when people die. I hope it happens more.

...

I don&#39;t support the war; however, I also don&#39;t pray that more death "rains" upon the American soldiers. This war never should have happened, and each day that it drags on causes more people to die.

[farleft]

Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2005, 07:56 PM
As of yet I have not seen anyone express an opinion about why more dead American soldiers actually accomplishes anything. America will not pull out after 2000 deaths anymore than it would have pulled out after 1000 deaths were reached. Been as the death count will not stop the occupation, what possible benefits will an even higher death toll achieve?
Why did the yanks pull out of Vietnam?

Lots of yanks got killed, the yanks back home were pissed, the troops withdrew.

Thats what more dead american soldiers accomplishes.

[Ownthink]

Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2005, 04:05 PM
Yes. I enjoy it when people die. I hope it happens more.

...

I don&#39;t support the war; however, I also don&#39;t pray that more death "rains" upon the American soldiers. This war never should have happened, and each day that it drags on causes more people to die.
I don&#39;t pray, I just hope.

Because it signifies that more Rebels are fighting this Imperialist invasion. I&#39;m sure with more dead, it will weigh much more on the conscience of those who were thinking about speaking out against it, but now are for sure going to.

Politics is numbers, and when you hear 2000 dead, it is only worse for Bush&#39;s image and whatnot.

Plus, a shitload of stupid illiterate 18 year old punks from Virgina get shot dead.

Without the military, how would all the stupid people die?

[Free Palestine]

Tell me, why the fuck are you a Communist, because you don&#39;t seem to like the oppressed very much... I feel incredible sympathy towards these men and their families.

Hm.. One side is fighting a war against colonialism and occupation, and on the other side are the colonialists engaged in a brutal occupation murdering and torturing innocent civilians -- and you&#39;re cheering on the imperialists? I think it&#39;s you who doesn&#39;t give a fuck about oppression.

If feeling sympathy for instruments of oppression aimed at the subjugation of a foreign people is part of Communism then I want nothing to do with it.


What exactly will this acomplish?

The liberation of an oppressed people living under occupation.

Oops, I forgot. You don&#39;t give a fuck about Iraqis. Lets all cry over those "poor, poor" imperialists&#33; They don&#39;t even have a good education&#33; :rolleyes:

Look, let&#39;s get real, man. You&#39;re in the US, you&#39;re safe. Heading back to Iraq anytime soon? Your username is aptly put: "Armchair Socialist." Pretty easy to play apologist for US imperialism when it&#39;s not your family being shot, huh? Pretty easy to think about how many US forces come from working class backgrounds when it&#39;s not your home being bombed, isn&#39;t it? When you&#39;re not being jailed and legally tortured without trial. You&#39;re probably just some rich kid whose Daddy pays for his college, talking about how we should all feel so sorry for those "poor, poor, disenfranchised" imperialists.

[drain.you]

I have little sympathy on this matter. They are soldiers, they&#39;ve actively trained, went to another country, removed the government and killed hundreds of civilians in the process. I mean, when it started it was like &#39;Today one soldier was killed&#39; and everyone was like &#39;:-o oh no&#39; but what on earth did they expect? Of course people are going to die.
Perhaps one day America will realise that war means death, but it doesnt seem to matter to them since they have an endless supply of labour to make weaponary and an endless supply of recruits.
Anyone supporting the Iraqi war should be out there and adding their brainwashed skulls to the pile.

The thing that upsets me is the civilian casualties.

Sorry if that seemed nasty but my patience has run out with the American shits leading this war.

[Intifada]

You should also read the accounts of the people who applied for CO status and their lives were made horrible by their superiors and they were "made an example of".

That is no excuse for picking up a gun and helping the occupation of Iraq.


Despite this the number of CO applications has increaded dramatically during this war. We should support them and realize that the objectors probably represent a greater number of lower-ranking people in the military who&#39;ve recieved or even applied for CO status.


Nobody is forced into any action, you always have the choice.

I support the troops who refuse to fight. It is that simple. Why should I feel sorry for those who do pick up a gun and help Washington occupy Iraq?


US grunts are not the imperilaists and their deaths are not so much as a speed-bump to the real imperilaists

That they are not "imperialists" in themselvesm, does not detract from the fact that they are fighting an imperialist war. I have no doubt that the likes of Bush and Rumsfeld couldn&#39;t care less about their men and women who die for them, but the people of the US and the families and friends of those who have died do care and will be forced to take action against their own government at home.

The more soldiers returning in body-bags, the more pissed off the US people will get.


ultimately it will take the Iraqi resistance as well as resistance from working americans inside and outside the military who have the power to smash the gears of the US war machine and make it a great deal easier for the Iraqis to defeat the US.

A rising death toll can only catalyse the growth of an anti-war movement in the US.

[Amusing Scrotum]

Why did the yanks pull out of Vietnam?

Lots of yanks got killed, the yanks back home were pissed, the troops withdrew.

Thats what more dead american soldiers accomplishes

And how many more Vietnamese people died during this period? Fucking loads. The amount of Iraqis&#39; that have died is nowhere near the amount of Vietnamese people who died and the more American soldiers that die the longer the Americans will stay in Iraq. Therefore the amount of Iraqi deaths will be significantly higher.

Do you really want to see millions of innocent Iraqis&#39; die just because you think 10000 or 20000 American deaths is a good figure.

I want to see an end to the occupation and the more Americans that die, the longer they will stay. The ruling class will not want to lose face. The sooner Iraq becomes stable, the sooner the occupation will end. Do you really want the occupation to last longer just so the American death toll will become bigger?


Hm.. One side is fighting a war against colonialism and occupation, and on the other side are the colonialists engaged in a brutal occupation murdering and torturing innocent civilians -- and you&#39;re cheering on the imperialists? I think it&#39;s you who doesn&#39;t give a fuck about oppression.

Point to one statement I have made where I have "cheered" on the imperialists. You won&#39;t find one. So don&#39;t make such fucking ignorant claims.


If feeling sympathy for instruments of oppression aimed at the subjugation of a foreign people is part of Communism then I want nothing to do with it.


You hit the nail on the head there. They are just instruments of the ruling class, the same way a worker is just an instrument of the Capitalist. You can&#39;t blame the tool, when its the person holding the tool that is doing the damage.


The liberation of an oppressed people living under occupation.

Oops, I forgot. You don&#39;t give a fuck about Iraqis. Lets all cry over those "poor, poor" imperialists&#33; They don&#39;t even have a good education&#33;

Again, point to a statement where I said I don&#39;t give a fuck about the Iraqis&#39; before making such silly claims about my views.


Look, let&#39;s get real, man. You&#39;re in the US, you&#39;re safe. Heading back to Iraq anytime soon? Your username is aptly put: "Armchair Socialist." Pretty easy to play apologist for US imperialism when it&#39;s not your family being shot, huh? Pretty easy to think about how many US forces come from working class backgrounds when it&#39;s not your home being bombed, isn&#39;t it? When you&#39;re not being jailed and legally tortured without trial. You&#39;re probably just some rich kid whose Daddy pays for his college, talking about how we should all feel so sorry for those "poor, poor, disenfranchised" imperialists.


You obviously take no notice of anything that I say, you only have to look in my profile to see that I&#39;m not from the US. Also you don&#39;t know the first thing about me so don&#39;t act like you do, your description of me couldn&#39;t be further from the truth. I am not so arrogant to assume who you are, so I would appreciate it if you would refrain from being so fucking arrogant in your posts.

[Free Palestine]

Armchair Socialism likes to come up with excuses. Notice all he does is ask, "Show me where I said ______". He doesn&#39;t even say it&#39;s true or false, because that would either vindicate me (making him look foolish) or force him to put forth a convincing counter-argument (which he is obviously unable to do). Instead, he resorts to ambiguity. It&#39;s nothing but a coward&#39;s way out.

[Amusing Scrotum]

Armchair Socialism likes to come up with excuses. Notice all he does is ask, "Show me where I said ______". He doesn&#39;t even say it&#39;s true or false, because that would either vindicate me (making him look foolish) or force him to put forth a convincing counter-argument (which he is obviously unable to do). Instead, he resorts to ambiguity. It&#39;s nothing but a coward&#39;s way out.

What the fuck are you wittering on about. You accused me of supporting imperialism and not caring about the Iraqi people. I asked you to supply evidence in the form of previous posts of mine to support these allegations you are making. You can&#39;t and therefore you have resorted to petty slander. Quite frankly, I couldn&#39;t give a flying fuck if you think I am a coward, your opinion is not something that I particularly value.

[Phalanx]

You like to flame, don&#39;t you Free Palestine?

Very few subjects in the world are in black and white. Same goes for the Iraq occupation war. These soldiers fall into the trap the capitalists on top put out to them, so they go into the army and get themselves killed. The vast majority of these soldiers think that invading Iraq was the right thing to do, to help Iraqis. I don&#39;t think all of them carry a cold heart.

Why can&#39;t insurgents fight against the dictator of Syria? Isn&#39;t he also a huge threat to equality? He sent in his army at Hamah and killed over 40,000 people. None of these things are ever really addressed. That said, I sure as hell don&#39;t want the US to win, but I don&#39;t want to see a sharia state set up in Iraq. That would just cause more suffering and destroy any rights women had before/during the war.

[Chuck]

See. This is why liberals in the US can&#39;t win an election. Too much squabbling between themselves.

Talk about revolution is nice, but once again, where&#39;s the organization?

[Ownthink]

You hit the nail on the head there. They are just instruments of the ruling class, the same way a worker is just an instrument of the Capitalist. You can&#39;t blame the tool, when its the person holding the tool that is doing the damage.

In this case, the tool was a conscious human being with a choice.

[Amusing Scrotum]

See. This is why liberals in the US can&#39;t win an election. Too much squabbling between themselves.


My friend, this is a revolutionary leftist board, not a liberal one.

[Amusing Scrotum]

In this case, the tool was a conscious human being with a choice.

I&#39;m not saying they don&#39;t have a choice. I am saying due to the constant propaganda they have been subjected to by the ruling elites, they feel they are making the right choice. I am also saying lets not be so quick to condemn them and celebrate their deaths, instead lets try to inform them that they are making the wrong choice. Education is the way we will bring about class consciousness and emancipation.

We will never succeed if we just get rid of the puppets, we must get rid of the puppet master.

[Ownthink]

Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2005, 07:19 PM

In this case, the tool was a conscious human being with a choice.

I&#39;m not saying they don&#39;t have a choice. I am saying due to the constant propaganda they have been subjected to by the ruling elites, they feel they are making the right choice. I am also saying lets not be so quick to condemn them and celebrate their deaths, instead lets try to inform them that they are making the wrong choice. Education is the way we will bring about class consciousness and emancipation.

We will never succeed if we just get rid of the puppets, we must get rid of the puppet master.
I am for getting rid of the master AND his puppets.


Especially if they are puppets that willingly kill innocent people.

Really, you give these militaristic morons way too much fucking credit.

[Chuck]

Change it to revolutionary and you have the same result.

[Amusing Scrotum]

I am for getting rid of the master AND his puppets.


Especially if they are puppets that willingly kill innocent people.

Really, you give these militaristic morons way too much fucking credit.

Fair enough, that is your opinion and I respect it. I however do take a different opinion and while maybe I do give the "militaristic morons way too much fucking credit." I really do believe that there is still some hope for these people. Only time will tell.


Change it to revolutionary and you have the same result.


:unsure:

[Jimmie Higgins]

Originally posted by farleft+Oct 26 2005, 08:20 PM--> (farleft @ Oct 26 2005, 08:20 PM)
[email protected] 26 2005, 07:56 PM
As of yet I have not seen anyone express an opinion about why more dead American soldiers actually accomplishes anything. America will not pull out after 2000 deaths anymore than it would have pulled out after 1000 deaths were reached. Been as the death count will not stop the occupation, what possible benefits will an even higher death toll achieve?
Why did the yanks pull out of Vietnam?

Lots of yanks got killed, the yanks back home were pissed, the troops withdrew.

Thats what more dead american soldiers accomplishes. [/b]
Why did the US pull out of vietnam - that&#39;s a good question to ask.

Was it because the death toll by itself caused remorse in our ruling class? If so why did it stop when it did. Why 100,000 US and 10x as many vietnmaese? Why not more, why not less? This logic is faulty.

It was because it bcame too politically costly for our rulers to continue this war without risking an all out mutiny of the grunts and revolution in the US. Nixon stopped the ground war and continued the air war because soldiers were refusing to fight, deserting, and fraggin their officers. He believe that the air force was less likely to mutiny because they were less likly to see the people they were killing and less likly to be killed. But people in the air force also refused to cooperate especially when they were orderd to start bombing cambodia.

If we do not organize US anti-war activists and then organize the grunts against the war, then the US will be happy to kill millions of Iraqis. They had no problem bombing them for a decade, so even if they pulled ground troops out, I don&#39;t see how that alone would end this war.

I organize and protest and try to be involved with anti-military recruitment work because I see this as a real way to stop the US war machine. If you sincerely think that the only thing that will stop the US is dead grunts, then you should be practicing your arabic and marksmanship.

I&#39;m only calling people out on this because I think this argument that troops are irrevokably pro-imperialist is completely a-marxist and excuses the proponents of this argument from actually being able to do something about it. Why organize and protest in the US/UK if US/UK workers are bought-off and inherently imperialist eh?

[violencia.Proletariat]

Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2005, 03:21 PM

they think its the right way to go? oh yeah, maybe thats why the lower class votes in all the elections trying to find the candidate that wants to send them all to war i think redstar mentioned that lots of the soldiers in iraq are from army families, and i would have to agree. most soldiers i see on tv are white not black. they probably come from republican families. if its the only way to go for the lower class why are recruitment levels falling? its because they are running out of kids from army families. there lots of mediocre shitty jobs to do, you know the ones that we leave for "the mexicans." now i dont care how much education you have but thats the logical choice than to be in a country where people will do anything in their power, including blowing themselves up, to kill you.


i dont like the opressed? hmmm, if that were the case then id be a proponent of the draft, which im not. these arent draftees, they are volunteers, i have less respect for them.

Show me figures that the majority of soldiers in Iraq fighting in the front line are from military families and maybe then I will change my opinion. I could care less if pampered rich boy who joined the army in some high ranking position got killed, but they don&#39;t. They are in the green zone, hiding behind bodyguards.

Also I don&#39;t think it much matters if their families vote Republican or Democrat or even if they do. Plenty of working class people in America vote Republican and what you are saying amounts to "Well fuck &#39;em unless they vote Democrat." Well comrade, the Democrats do fuck all for the working class as well.

Also I never said they didn&#39;t have a choice, what I said is the appalling conditions they grow up in and the constant bombardment of propaganda the ruling class subjects them too. Leaves them in a position where they think they are doing the right thing. They have been completely manipulated by the ruling class. We need to try and make them see that they have been lied to, not cheering when they get killed in Iraq. The ruling class doesn&#39;t really give a shit how many soldiers die, as long as they are making money. We need to make the soldiers see that they are being exploited therefore making them unwilling to carry out the objectives of the ruling class. This is how the occupation will end as how good the insurgency is at killing soldiers doesn&#39;t really bother those in power because they don&#39;t care.
show me figures that the majority of soldiers are working class and not middle class. what i said about military familys is what i suspect. i dont know if its fact or not.

ha, your accusing me of being a democrat? am i saying "fuck em if they vote republican"? yes, im also saying fuck em if they vote democrat. but the thing is, poor people DONT VOTE&#33; the majority of voters are older or middle aged people with a decent ammount of education.

why do the poor note vote? because they dont know the candidates because their worried about their job? yes that might be a reason, and probably because they dont think voting does a damn thing for them. that being said, why is it that all these working class people are brainwashed if their families are more worried about making a living. i dont think if you went into a ghetto youd see kids gathering on the corner to say the pledge of alliegence and praising the president. :lol:

i dont cheer when soldiers get killed, it just doesnt bother me. if they are from the working class they can see they get fucked. its not rocket science that you shouldnt fight for the president.

[Tekun]

Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2005, 04:51 PM
What you have to remember is that a lot, if not most of these soldiers come from working class backgrounds, have received a very poor education, have been subjected to constant propaganda about how great America is and have had very little in terms of job opportunities, quite a few of them would have had a career choice of welfare, drug dealing, petty crime or the army.

So before everyone starts indulging themselves in a spate of mutual masturbation, just remember these soldiers are products of the system.
This is nothing but an excuse to fight and cater to imperialists

I come from humble beginnings, my parents are anything but well off and yet they&#39;ve worked all their lives
My neighborhood was notorious for poor education, my family was homeless for awhile, and I was exposed to gangs and drugs...
Im not a product of the system, Im a victim of the system

Yet, despite all that, I managed to get a decent education and through that I gained a intelligent view on politics and society
I acquired a socialist POV to everything

Everyone is exposed to the truth, yet ppl choose to ignore it, and these "agents of capitalism" are a testament to this
U can either choose to accept or reject the propaganda that inundates u
No one forces or imposes propagand on u

And from an normal person&#39;s POV, if you&#39;re poor and uneducated in a country that prides itself for being the "wealthiest" or most productive, then you should be angered by America&#39;s disregard for u
^And as a result, not fight for the gov that oppresses and disregards you and your fam

These soldiers know exactly who and what their fighting for
And, they should take into consideration that any human beign will fight those who invade him, thus the Iraqi&#39;s are justified

[Amusing Scrotum]

show me figures that the majority of soldiers are working class and not middle class. what i said about military familys is what i suspect. i dont know if its fact or not.

I have no such figures nor do I know where to find them. So for the sake of the debate, shall we just say that half of the dead soldiers are of working class origin and the other half are from military families?


ha, your accusing me of being a democrat? am i saying "fuck em if they vote republican"? yes, im also saying fuck em if they vote democrat. but the thing is, poor people DONT VOTE&#33; the majority of voters are older or middle aged people with a decent ammount of education.

So what you are essentially saying here is that the soldiers are so alienated that they don&#39;t even vote. And you think there is no hope of changing their minds at all?

Oh, and I wasn&#39;t accusing you of being a Democrat, its just your post made a specific reference to soldiers coming from Republican families, so I was just pointing out that it doesn&#39;t matter which party they vote for.


why do the poor note vote? because they dont know the candidates because their worried about their job? yes that might be a reason, and probably because they dont think voting does a damn thing for them. that being said, why is it that all these working class people are brainwashed if their families are more worried about making a living. i dont think if you went into a ghetto youd see kids gathering on the corner to say the pledge of alliegence and praising the president

They are "brainwashed" in the sense that currently they see no major problem with the system. They just accept the fact that it has done nothing for them. If they did not believe in the system, then we would be seeing a revolution and been as there is no revolution at the moment. It is logical to conclude that while they are disenfranchised, they do in the main accept the system. Warts and all.


i dont cheer when soldiers get killed, it just doesnt bother me. if they are from the working class they can see they get fucked. its not rocket science that you shouldnt fight for the president.

Its not rocket science that Socialism is preferable, yet people don&#39;t want it. Does this mean we just write them off?


This is nothing but an excuse to fight and cater to imperialists

Please refrain from making such statements unless you have evidence that that is what I think. If you read my posts, you will see I in no way advocate imperialism.


I come from humble beginnings, my parents are anything but well off and yet they&#39;ve worked all their lives
My neighborhood was notorious for poor education, my family was homeless for awhile, and I was exposed to gangs and drugs...
Im not a product of the system, Im a victim of the system

Yet, despite all that, I managed to get a decent education and through that I gained a intelligent view on politics and society
I acquired a socialist POV to everything

I come from a similar background and I have not joined the army. However people from my area and a similar background to me, have chosen the army. Why is this? They can&#39;t all be raving lunatics who just want to go and kill people.


Everyone is exposed to the truth, yet ppl choose to ignore it, and these "agents of capitalism" are a testament to this
U can either choose to accept or reject the propaganda that inundates u
No one forces or imposes propagand on u


So what, the workers&#39; have just chosen to ignore Socialism completely despite the fact its in their best interests. Are they really that stupid? Or maybe, just maybe, there is something more sinister involved here.

Also if people have ignored the truth for this long, what makes you think they will ever start to believe it?


And from an normal person&#39;s POV, if you&#39;re poor and uneducated in a country that prides itself for being the "wealthiest" or most productive, then you should be angered by America&#39;s disregard for u
^And as a result, not fight for the gov that oppresses and disregards you and your fam


So then why do all these poor soldiers go and fight for their Government? Why do they think it is appropriate that they go and fight for their country? Are they all really that stupid that they don&#39;t realise? Or perhaps the propaganda they have been subjected too since they were infants has affected them?


These soldiers know exactly who and what their fighting for
And, they should take into consideration that any human beign will fight those who invade him, thus the Iraqi&#39;s are justified


I&#39;ll bet you if a survey was taken of soldiers in Iraq, the majority of them would truthfully say that they believe they are helping Iraqis get their freedom. They wouldn&#39;t say they were enhancing American economic and military control of the world because they do not realise that is what they are doing. They have bought into the propaganda sold to them by the ruling elites.

Also I have not said the Iraqi resistance is not justified, this is not the subject of this debate. The subject of this debate is whether it is justified to celebrate the deaths of American soldiers.

[bcbm]

It is logical to conclude that while they are disenfranchised, they do in the main accept the system.

And enforce that system, "warts and all," on the rest of the world with guns and bombs. Fuck &#39;em. They are not allies of mine.

[Amusing Scrotum]

And enforce that system, "warts and all," on the rest of the world with guns and bombs. Fuck &#39;em. They are not allies of mine.

If you read my post, which I suspect you didn&#39;t, you would see the comment "It is logical to conclude that while they are disenfranchised, they do in the main accept the system." Was a comment about the working class in general. Don&#39;t bother cherry picking statements and trying to make clever comments as it just makes you look like an idiot. If you wish to have a proper debate, then I am more than willing. Otherwise grow up.

[bcbm]

I read your whole post. Just not what you quoted. You&#39;re right, it was my mistake. Please accept my apology? :(

[barret]

This has been really downplayed by the media. I think once the word really gets out, this war is down the drain...

[Jimmie Higgins]

http://www.objector.org/ccco/inthenews/americarefuse.html

Against the argument: "Well people in the military who refuse arn&#39;t doing this because of principal or opposition to US imperilaism, they are only doing it because they don&#39;t want to be killed". Well first this argument is wrong because even if soldiers were simply refusing because they were scared this would be a real physical imparment in the US&#39;s ability to continue the occupation. Additionally, it is simply untrue as people who have been shiped to Iraq (on lies of either getting job training and an education or fighting to "help the Iraqis") see first hand the brutality of occupation and imperialism and since, in a marxist view, these soldiers have no material intrest or gain from the occupation they are likely to have real reasons to oppose US imperilaism:


Sergeant Kevin Benderman is one of the US&#39;s latest war resisters. Benderman spent eight months in Iraq in 2003 as an army mechanic. Though he never fired a gun in combat, he says the misery he saw firsthand led him to seek conscientious objector status.


"One thing that really sticks out in my mind, is the picture of a young girl standing there with her arm burned," Benderman said in an interview with the Associated Press. "Her mother was there and they were both crying and begging for help. The executive officer refused to help because troops had limited medical supplies." IT was what he say in Iraq, the realities verses the lies told to get him there that caused him to identify with the iraqis.


Mejia spent six months in combat in Iraq where he witnessed the atrocities of the US-led war, including the abuse of prisoners and the killing of civilians. After returning to the US for a two-week leave in October 2003, Mejia decided he never wanted to fight again in Iraq and went AWOL (Absent Without Leave) to avoid re-deployment. He finally surrendered to the military after five months in hiding and filed for conscientious objector status.


"We are doing this for the soldiers and their families who are victims of this war," Mejia wrote from Fort Stewart in a letter to his aunt, Norma Castillo, shortly after turning himself in. "We are doing this for the people of Iraq, who are being oppressed for the oil. We are doing this for humanity, which has already paid a high price." Mejia&#39;s application for conscientious objector status was ultimately denied and he is currently in jail, serving out the remaining months of his sentence.Yeah US troops are hella brainwashed dude&#33; They are hella sold-out pro-imperilaists. They are too dumb to come to any radical conclusions&#33;


New Pentagon statistics show that more than 5,000 soldiers have now been charged with desertion from US and overseas bases since the invasion of Iraq in early 2003.Seems like resistance is preventing more soldiers from fighting than the insurgency has killed. Ok that was flippant, but it shows the possibilities that exist to shove this wedge deeper into the US war machine and cripple thier occupation

[bunk]

Add to this all the priate security and mercenaries killed

[Wanted Man]

Haha, who ever hears of mercenaries? Nobody does, and still they&#39;re out there. It&#39;s quite sick. Anyway, while I agree that the American soldiers are by no means "imperialists" and that a great amount of them is probably working class, that is exactly the problem; we can&#39;t liberate them. They have to liberate themselves.

[Free Palestine]

American imperialists who travel thousands of miles to bomb, mutilate, kill and destroy poor Third World people and their dwellings are far from the innocent victims they are depicted by some here. They are barbaric war criminals, who are voluntarily fighting against their own interests, as well as ours, because the interests of working people everywhere are the same: control over the conditions of their work place and the full value of their labor. Nazi soldiers&#39; excuses of only doing their duty were not accepted as valid after World War 2. Neither should American imperialists be excused from responsibility by statements of fighting for their country or any other meaningless cliche.


I&#39;ll bet you if a survey was taken of soldiers in Iraq, the majority of them would truthfully say that they believe they are helping Iraqis get their freedom. They wouldn&#39;t say they were enhancing American economic and military control of the world because they do not realise that is what they are doing. They have bought into the propaganda sold to them by the ruling elites.


So? Many German soldiers in World War II thought it was a just war they were fighting too. People aren&#39;t absolved because they possess a belief in their mission.

[Amusing Scrotum]

American imperialists who travel thousands of miles to bomb, mutilate, kill and destroy poor Third World people and their dwellings are far from the innocent victims they are depicted by some here. They are barbaric war criminals, who are voluntarily fighting against their own interests, as well as ours, because the interests of working people everywhere are the same: control over the conditions of their work place and the full value of their labor. Nazi soldiers&#39; excuses of only doing their duty were not accepted as valid after World War 2. Neither should American imperialists be excused from responsibility by statements of fighting for their country or any other meaningless cliche.

So what is your solution, to have them all killed? Millions of soldiers have died in the past fighting for causes that do not benefit them, yet millions of people still sign up for the army.

Therefore the solution can&#39;t be to just leave these men die and celebrate their deaths, the solution must be to educate these men and show them that they are not fighting for just causes. We can&#39;t disregard and abandon these men as lost causes.

I will also suggest to you Free Palestine that the way you view these men as evil, inferior, barbaric monsters is not that different from the way the Nazis&#39; viewed Jews or the way the Israeli Government views Palestinians. You think of them as such perverted people that all hope is lost and this leads me to conclude that you would be very happy to see them all gassed. I suggest to you that any Marxist who understands social conditions in a Marxist sense would realise that no one can be pure evil or pure good and therefore there is a chance that these mens opinions and views can be modified.


So? Many German soldiers in World War II thought it was a just war they were fighting too. People aren&#39;t absolved because they possess a belief in their mission.

No they are not absolved, but I hope you realise that after World War Two only high ranking Nazi elites were tried and killed, not the "grunts." The "grunts" were re-educated and transformed into normal, decent human beings. Surely if we can eradicate as vile a thing as Nazism out of grown men and women, then we can do the same thing with the American soldiers who have not been subjected to half as much propaganda that the German soldiers were subjected too.

After all if there is no hope in re-educating people, then there is no basis for either emancipating the working class or implementing a Communist society.

[violencia.Proletariat]

So what you are essentially saying here is that the soldiers are so alienated that they don&#39;t even vote. And you think there is no hope of changing their minds at all?


what im trying to say is that the lower class isnt known for voting in elections, therfore i doubt most of the lower class soldiers are over there because they are brainwashed

well you yourself said that we shouldnt give capitalists a chance because they will turn right around and call us stupid commies ;)



They are "brainwashed" in the sense that currently they see no major problem with the system. They just accept the fact that it has done nothing for them. If they did not believe in the system, then we would be seeing a revolution and been as there is no revolution at the moment. It is logical to conclude that while they are disenfranchised, they do in the main accept the system. Warts and all.


of course they fucking see there is a problem with a system. why would there be so many drug dealers if they could make millions working at mcdonalds :lol:

i dont think they accept "the system" , i think they dont have the education/means to do anything about the situation at this time.

[Amusing Scrotum]

what im trying to say is that the lower class isnt known for voting in elections, therfore i doubt most of the lower class soldiers are over there because they are brainwashed


So you are saying that there is a large part of the American lower class that is bloodthirsty and monstrous?

They are either over there because they believe they are helping people or because they want to kill, mame and torture Arabs.


well you yourself said that we shouldnt give capitalists a chance because they will turn right around and call us stupid commies

My own words coming back to haunt me. :o :lol:


of course they fucking see there is a problem with a system. why would there be so many drug dealers if they could make millions working at mcdonalds

i dont think they accept "the system" , i think they dont have the education/means to do anything about the situation at this time.

I totally agree that education is what is needed to make these people realise can have a better system, but been as they do not yet want to change the system even though they see the faults of the system. This means to a certain extent they accept the system and the status quo.

Realising the faults of the system is not the same as completely rejecting the system.

[Jimmie Higgins]

A note on the NAZI argument.

Using the NAZIs as an example of why US/UK "grunts" are branwashed pro-imperialists is faulty because in both historical examples, people seem to have a rather static view of mass consiesness.

Withing one generation of German workers, workers went from being social-democrat before the war (WWI), to revolutionary after WWI to becoming Nazis. It&#39;s not like it&#39;s some smooth progression of thought. The NAZIs came to power precisely because the German workers had been so radical so the ruling class needed some extreeme repression and other mesures to break revolutionary working movements. This is why the communists were the first on the chopping bloc when the NAZIs took power.

At the end of the war, as NAZI troops retreated from cities within Germany, Antifas (anti-fascist groups) immedately took power in the cities. So why wouldn&#39;t appealing to German workers and soldiers have worked? Because Germans lived under a highly repressive system... they could not go out and protest Germany&#39;s invasion of Poland like people in the US can protest the Iraqi occupation because the Germany would have been shot and had their bodies rolled-over by a tank.

Since people in the US still do have some bourgoise rights and can go out and show opposition to Bush and the War, the US, is not fascist as much as both liberals and the ubber-radicals on this forum claim.

Since we can still protest, it should be the job of marxists to help turn the US population, including the grunts, against this war and against our rulers. This will help stop the US war Machine along with the Iraqi resistance and it will help radicalize workers as they begin to realize that our rulers are our true enemy, not some Iraqi who wants the same things in life as we do.

[violencia.Proletariat]

So you are saying that there is a large part of the American lower class that is bloodthirsty and monstrous?

no, but i would like to know why the "lower class" soldiers are there. on all the news broadcasts etc, its always white war family soldiers who feel they are protecting and serving their country. but you cant believe that shit anymore after that scandal was uncovered where the soldiers were prepped before being asked questions by republican party members recently.

maybe its monetary? who knows, theres always jobs around.


My own words coming back to haunt me. :o :lol:

want me to cite it?


but been as they do not yet want to change the system even though they see the faults of the system. This means to a certain extent they accept the system and the status quo.

as ive said, i dont think its that they dont want to change the system, i thin its that they dont have the means. when the bpp was around the lower classes started to organize because they had the means.

[Amusing Scrotum]

Gravedigger, I don&#39;t know whether your last post was directed at me or not, but if it was then if you look at the reason I used Nazi soldiers in my argument was to say that been as it had been possible to remove the most vile of ideologies from them, it is surely possible to remove American soldiers bourgeois nationalism.


no, but i would like to know why the "lower class" soldiers are there. on all the news broadcasts etc, its always white war family soldiers who feel they are protecting and serving their country. but you cant believe that shit anymore after that scandal was uncovered where the soldiers were prepped before being asked questions by republican party members recently.

maybe its monetary? who knows, theres always jobs around.


I really don&#39;t get what you are saying here. I have said that the soldiers there do it because not only they think that they are serving their country but also because the army is one of the best career choices available to them. I have pointed out many of the reasons why I think people join the army. You have rejected all of them. I know why I think the soldiers are there, it is you who have not said why you think they are there. You are disagreeing with what I am saying without even trying to offer a counter argument.


want me to cite it?

I know when and where I said it and the context in which I said it.


as ive said, i dont think its that they dont want to change the system, i thin its that they dont have the means. when the bpp was around the lower classes started to organize because they had the means.

The workers will never have the means to start a revolution, they will fight for the means during the revolution. They do not need the means, they need to emancipate themselves and as they are not emancipated at the current time, which means however badly the system has treated them, they still grudgingly accept it. If they wanted to change the system, they would.

This is basic class consciousness, if the workers are not class conscious, they accept the system by default.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2005, 12:18 AM
Gravedigger, I don&#39;t know whether your last post was directed at me or not, but if it was then if you look at the reason I used Nazi soldiers in my argument was to say that been as it had been possible to remove the most vile of ideologies from them, it is surely possible to remove American soldiers bourgeois nationalism.
No, I agree with that. I was responding to Free Palistine specifically but I meant it generally because I think a few other comrades had made the comparison that the US troops were like nazis and so they will never come to anti-war, let alone anti-imperilaist, conclusions.

[Amusing Scrotum]

No, I agree with that. I was responding to Free Palistine specifically but I meant it generally because I think a few other comrades had made the comparison that the US troops were like nazis and so they will never come to anti-war, let alone anti-imperilaist, conclusions.

My bad. Looking back over your post you make some extremely good points regarding the possibility of converting (Bad word I know,) American troops over to the anti war, anti imperialist movement. The proof for this, lies as ever in history, and if one looks at the Vietnam war you can see that many returning troops took up the peace effort because some anti war people showed sympathy towards them. Though I would suggest that many more would have come over to the anti war movement if some members in that movement hadn&#39;t been so quick to vilify them.

[Plato]

How can you people revel in the thought of death? How can you hope and pray for more death than there already is? I too support the Iraqi people in having the decision to choose their own fate, and reject U.S. influence over them, however, the death of American soldiers is not the way in which to have this happen. These soldiers are just the tools of the real enemy: the stong right leadership in the American government who started the war. The American people already want the war to be over and the government knows it, and are trying to pull U.S. troops out while covering up their blunders with lies about freeing Iraq. The death of more people are not going to speed up this cause that already being planned. Instead of reveling in the useless death of men we should be hoping that this weakened state that Iraq is in can help lead to the overthrow the government the Americans set up there, and the emergance of an independant Socialist state in the Middle-East.

[Ownthink]

Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2005, 11:05 PM
How can you people revel in the thought of death? How can you hope and pray for more death than there already is? I too support the Iraqi people in having the decision to choose their own fate, and reject U.S. influence over them, however, the death of American soldiers is not the way in which to have this happen. These soldiers are just the tools of the real enemy: the stong right leadership in the American government who started the war. The American people already want the war to be over and the government knows it, and are trying to pull U.S. troops out while covering up their blunders with lies about freeing Iraq. The death of more people are not going to speed up this cause that already being planned. Instead of reveling in the useless death of men we should be hoping that this weakened state that Iraq is in can help lead to the overthrow the government the Americans set up there, and the emergance of an independant Socialist state in the Middle-East.
I think me and Free Palestine have already presented and justified our view of things.


And I don&#39;t "pray" for anything.

[Xvall]

How can you people revel in the thought of death?

Pretty easilly, actually.


I too support the Iraqi people in having the decision to choose their own fate, and reject U.S. influence over them, however, the death of American soldiers is not the way in which to have this happen.

What alternative do they have? An enemy is invading your nation with military force. You must repel said military force. There is nothing else you can do.


These soldiers are just the tools of the real enemy: the stong right leadership in the American government who started the war.

True as that may be, the insurgency is in no position to attack the American government, nor would doing such yeild positive results.


The American people already want the war to be over and the government knows it, and are trying to pull U.S. troops out while covering up their blunders with lies about freeing Iraq.

Rice and Bush&#39;s firery statements about "staying the course" prove otherwise. They were apparently going to "pull out" shortly after the mission was accomplished. We all see how that went.


The death of more people are not going to speed up this cause that already being planned.

Oh yes it will.


Instead of reveling in the useless death of men we should be hoping that this weakened state that Iraq is in can help lead to the overthrow the government the Americans set up there, and the emergance of an independant Socialist state in the Middle-East.

Maybe you didn&#39;t get the memo, but overthrowing a government usually involves killing. How else will you overthrow the government? Do you think they&#39;ll walk in any ask everyone to nicely leave?

[Ownthink]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2005, 07:59 PM

How can you people revel in the thought of death?

Pretty easilly, actually.


I too support the Iraqi people in having the decision to choose their own fate, and reject U.S. influence over them, however, the death of American soldiers is not the way in which to have this happen.

What alternative do they have? An enemy is invading your nation with military force. You must repel said military force. There is nothing else you can do.


These soldiers are just the tools of the real enemy: the stong right leadership in the American government who started the war.

True as that may be, the insurgency is in no position to attack the American government, nor would doing such yeild positive results.


The American people already want the war to be over and the government knows it, and are trying to pull U.S. troops out while covering up their blunders with lies about freeing Iraq.

Rice and Bush&#39;s firery statements about "staying the course" prove otherwise. They were apparently going to "pull out" shortly after the mission was accomplished. We all see how that went.


The death of more people are not going to speed up this cause that already being planned.

Oh yes it will.


Instead of reveling in the useless death of men we should be hoping that this weakened state that Iraq is in can help lead to the overthrow the government the Americans set up there, and the emergance of an independant Socialist state in the Middle-East.

Maybe you didn&#39;t get the memo, but overthrowing a government usually involves killing. How else will you overthrow the government? Do you think they&#39;ll walk in any ask everyone to nicely leave?
LOL, truely, a priceless post.

[metalero]

Originally posted by Atlas [email protected] 26 2005, 02:46 PM
I am more concerned with how many Iraqis and Afghanistanis have been murdered. The Iraqis and Afghanastanis did not voulenteer to be bombed, shot at, and have thier countries invaded. The soldiers are the invaders. They are better supplied and have superior arms to those being invaded. Most of those that are murdered as in most wars are unarmed civillians. Sympathy should be for them, not for the fools who were duped into killing people who were never a threat to them, because of their misguided bullshit patriotism.

The "insurgents" are true freedom fighters.
I Totally agree. Many in this forum have prejudice against the sovereignty of Iraquis and other invaded people; Their point of reference about the suffering of war limits to the number of dead imperialist troops. We must show solidarity for people using their supreme right to resistance.

[metalero]

Originally posted by Armchair [email protected] 26 2005, 10:09 PM

Why did the yanks pull out of Vietnam?

Lots of yanks got killed, the yanks back home were pissed, the troops withdrew.

Thats what more dead american soldiers accomplishes

And how many more Vietnamese people died during this period? Fucking loads. The amount of Iraqis&#39; that have died is nowhere near the amount of Vietnamese people who died and the more American soldiers that die the longer the Americans will stay in Iraq. Therefore the amount of Iraqi deaths will be significantly higher.

Do you really want to see millions of innocent Iraqis&#39; die just because you think 10000 or 20000 American deaths is a good figure.

I want to see an end to the occupation and the more Americans that die, the longer they will stay. The ruling class will not want to lose face. The sooner Iraq becomes stable, the sooner the occupation will end. Do you really want the occupation to last longer just so the American death toll will become bigger?


Hm.. One side is fighting a war against colonialism and occupation, and on the other side are the colonialists engaged in a brutal occupation murdering and torturing innocent civilians -- and you&#39;re cheering on the imperialists? I think it&#39;s you who doesn&#39;t give a fuck about oppression.

Point to one statement I have made where I have "cheered" on the imperialists. You won&#39;t find one. So don&#39;t make such fucking ignorant claims.


If feeling sympathy for instruments of oppression aimed at the subjugation of a foreign people is part of Communism then I want nothing to do with it.


You hit the nail on the head there. They are just instruments of the ruling class, the same way a worker is just an instrument of the Capitalist. You can&#39;t blame the tool, when its the person holding the tool that is doing the damage.


The liberation of an oppressed people living under occupation.

Oops, I forgot. You don&#39;t give a fuck about Iraqis. Lets all cry over those "poor, poor" imperialists&#33; They don&#39;t even have a good education&#33;

Again, point to a statement where I said I don&#39;t give a fuck about the Iraqis&#39; before making such silly claims about my views.


Look, let&#39;s get real, man. You&#39;re in the US, you&#39;re safe. Heading back to Iraq anytime soon? Your username is aptly put: "Armchair Socialist." Pretty easy to play apologist for US imperialism when it&#39;s not your family being shot, huh? Pretty easy to think about how many US forces come from working class backgrounds when it&#39;s not your home being bombed, isn&#39;t it? When you&#39;re not being jailed and legally tortured without trial. You&#39;re probably just some rich kid whose Daddy pays for his college, talking about how we should all feel so sorry for those "poor, poor, disenfranchised" imperialists.


You obviously take no notice of anything that I say, you only have to look in my profile to see that I&#39;m not from the US. Also you don&#39;t know the first thing about me so don&#39;t act like you do, your description of me couldn&#39;t be further from the truth. I am not so arrogant to assume who you are, so I would appreciate it if you would refrain from being so fucking arrogant in your posts.

Point to one statement I have made where I have "cheered" on the imperialists. You won&#39;t find one. So don&#39;t make such fucking ignorant claims.

Not exactly cheering, but let&#39;s call it "flirting" with imperialism:


The sooner Iraq becomes stable, the sooner the occupation will end

It sounded like as a blatant apology for US keeping its troops over there, let me know if meant otherwise...

[rioters bloc]

i don&#39;t want any more soldiers killed. i&#39;d rather they fuck off out of iraq - along with the multinationals who are settling down there - and give the iraqis a chance to salvage what&#39;s left of their shattered nation. but that doesn&#39;t look set to happen any time soon, so what&#39;s the alternative? tell the insurgents to put down their arms and extend an olive branch of peace to the coalition troops in the hope that they&#39;ll pack up and leave?

not likely.

the reason people want more dead coalition troops is because, unfortunately, that&#39;s one of the only ways to build the anti-war sentiment in countries where these troops come from. sadly, apart from those opposed to the occupation from the onset, most people don&#39;t give a shit about the iraqis who are being killed. or, if they do, they stop caring after a little while. but when it&#39;s people from their own country, patriotism kicks in and the public starts re-evaluating the occupation.

armchair socialism, gravedigger, and anyone else who supports the troops - would you yourself sign up to the military? i sincerely hope your answer is no, and if i&#39;m right, what are your reasons not to? and why don&#39;t the soldiers consider these reasons?

[Tekun]

I come from a similar background and I have not joined the army. However people from my area and a similar background to me, have chosen the army. Why is this? They can&#39;t all be raving lunatics who just want to go and kill people.

I don&#39;t why it is, Im not them and Im no psychologist
But as far as Im concerned, they&#39;ve chosen to surround themselves with ignorance
And, they know full well what they&#39;re getting themselves into by joining the army
They live in a dream world, a fantasy, about how good or righteous America is

Any human being with an intellect can see how wrong/evil the army and gov is, and if they choose to close their eyez just to escape the hood, then they deserve what the Iraqi&#39;s are giving them
These dolts have invaded another&#39;s country, and that person has a right to defend his sovereingty and freedom



So what, the workers&#39; have just chosen to ignore Socialism completely despite the fact its in their best interests. Are they really that stupid? Or maybe, just maybe, there is something more sinister involved here.

Yeah, the workers have chosen to ignore socialism
They&#39;re so brainwashed and ignorant, that they believe workers union&#39;s in a democratic state will solve all their problems
They belief and confidence in this so called "democracy" blinds them to the reality of capitalistic America
Thatz how politicians operate, they blind the workers to believe in a system that exploits the work of others - and the workers eat it up&#33;
And thatz why I blame the workers, if they approached socialism with a neutral and unbiased POV, they&#39;d mos definitely choose it
But they don&#39;t do this, bkuz they&#39;re doltish beliefs lie upon the "righteousness" of American democracy




Also if people have ignored the truth for this long, what makes you think they will ever start to believe it?

Enough with the questions bro, Im not them and I can&#39;t answer for them
When a person&#39;s surroundings goes from bad to worse, they will do everything to see the truth
Those who are, to a certain degree comfortable, will look upon the truth skeptically
As socialists, our first priority should be with the oppressed and needy
Then, if they desire, we&#39;ll help those who are "comfortable"



So then why do all these poor soldiers go and fight for their Government? Why do they think it is appropriate that they go and fight for their country? Are they all really that stupid that they don&#39;t realise? Or perhaps the propaganda they have been subjected too since they were infants has affected them?

Propaganda is effective when it manipulates the intellect of weak and insecure individuals
And u become weak and insecure by developing a character/personality flaw, not a psychological flaw
All human beings have a brain, we all know the difference between right and wrong
Yet, these soldiers choose to overlook reality, and as a result they&#39;re willing to trade humanity for patriotism
They choose wrong over right

We&#39;ve all been fed propaganda, but it is not propaganda which leads us to take action
Our brain is what makes us take action
Those who are intelligent and willfull reject propaganda, those who are not accept it



I&#39;ll bet you if a survey was taken of soldiers in Iraq, the majority of them would truthfully say that they believe they are helping Iraqis get their freedom. They wouldn&#39;t say they were enhancing American economic and military control of the world because they do not realise that is what they are doing. They have bought into the propaganda sold to them by the ruling elites.

Also I have not said the Iraqi resistance is not justified, this is not the subject of this debate. The subject of this debate is whether it is justified to celebrate the deaths of American soldiers.

We cannot speculate on the theoretical, so your "survey" is pretty much insignificant

Bro, I don&#39;t celebrate their deaths
All Im saying is that if they invade anothers country for no apparent reason - they deserve total destruction
I don&#39;t like the fact that many of em die, but if they chose to be the agents of capitalism, then as the agents of evil they will soon feel the wrath of those they help to oppress

[Hiero]

The reason they pulled out was because the anti-war movement was a danger to American capital in general. And crucically, that anti-war feeling started to really ingrain itself on the soldiers themselves - "fragging".

The only reason there was an anti war movement was because the US were fighting a enemy that would not give up.

It has been shown time and time again that the US population will support clean quick wars. Public opinion only changes when the withdrawl times are moved back and the US start to take on consistent casuals.

The war in Afghanistan was a highly popular war because it was quick and it took a few years before information got out about resistance, US deaths and US atrocites. Even now its not such a big deal.

The US anti-war movement only grows when US forces morale is defeated.

[Deutsche Ideologie]

What about all the workers who are forced into the military because they feel it&#39;s their only way out of poverty? Are they dirty imperialists too?

I don&#39;t really give a fuck about the majority of the troops, I&#39;m just sayin.

[Ownthink]

Originally posted by Deutsche [email protected] 29 2005, 01:25 AM
What about all the workers who are forced into the military because they feel it&#39;s their only way out of poverty? Are they dirty imperialists too?

I don&#39;t really give a fuck about the majority of the troops, I&#39;m just sayin.
What about the hoards of workers in Nazi Germany who valiantly followed their Fuhrer?

Or the soldiers over in Iraq who torture, maim, rape, and oppress innocent people so they can "make a living"?

Don&#39;t give me this "oh they are oh so exploited" bullshit. they know damn well what they&#39;re doing, and they willfully do it.

[Deutsche Ideologie]

Originally posted by Ownthink+Oct 29 2005, 05:38 AM--> (Ownthink &#064; Oct 29 2005, 05:38 AM)
Deutsche [email protected] 29 2005, 01:25 AM
What about all the workers who are forced into the military because they feel it&#39;s their only way out of poverty? Are they dirty imperialists too?

I don&#39;t really give a fuck about the majority of the troops, I&#39;m just sayin.
What about the hoards of workers in Nazi Germany who valiantly followed their Fuhrer?

Or the soldiers over in Iraq who torture, maim, rape, and oppress innocent people so they can "make a living"?

Don&#39;t give me this "oh they are oh so exploited" bullshit. they know damn well what they&#39;re doing, and they willfully do it. [/b]
I understand where you&#39;re coming from.. But think about it. We&#39;re all part of the system somehow or another, some of us are just more out of it than others. For some people the military, they feel, is their last resort.. We all got the same oppressor, how can I hate my people?

And I&#39;m not supporting the patriotic fucks in the army, the fucking dudes talking to Bush on TV and shit, I&#39;m simply supporting the blacks and latinos from the hoods who had to get out somehow, and felt the military was their only option.

[Hiero]

What do you want the Iraqis to do, not shoot at the people who are shooting them because maybe they joined under economic pressure?

[Led Zeppelin]

Do American soldiers (or soldiers in general) make surplus-value? No, therefore they are not proletarian.

I don&#39;t care why they "joined up", now that they have they will pay for it, hopefully with their lifes.

[Xvall]

What about all the workers who are forced into the military because they feel it&#39;s their only way out of poverty? Are they dirty imperialists too?

Yes.

[Deutsche Ideologie]

Originally posted by [email protected] 29 2005, 07:59 AM
What do you want the Iraqis to do, not shoot at the people who are shooting them because maybe they joined under economic pressure?
Oh no.. I want them to shoot.

I just hope that less workers get caught in their crossfire, and more racist patriot pigs get shot, instead of the workers over there from the ghettos of America.

[citizen_snips]

The sooner that these American soldiers recruited from the lower classes realise that Bush is betraying them as well as betraying the people of Iraq, the better. I personally think it&#39;s tragic that these people are getting killed for the purposes of the rich and powerful back home, but it&#39;s even more tragic for the Iraqis. And they way to stop it is not for the Americans to "win" and "stabilise Iraq" but to LEAVE and let Iraqis try and fix the mess that Americans have caused. Humanitarian aid should be allowed of course, but not from America (who has just a bit of a vested interest in controlling the country) - and not from any country who wants to impose conditions or put Iraq into its debt.

[Ownthink]

Originally posted by Deutsche Ideologie+Oct 29 2005, 05:22 PM--> (Deutsche Ideologie @ Oct 29 2005, 05:22 PM)
[email protected] 29 2005, 07:59 AM
What do you want the Iraqis to do, not shoot at the people who are shooting them because maybe they joined under economic pressure?
Oh no.. I want them to shoot.

I just hope that less workers get caught in their crossfire, and more racist patriot pigs get shot, instead of the workers over there from the ghettos of America. [/b]
In an ideal world, Comrade. But not in the real world.


The sooner that these American soldiers recruited from the lower classes realise that Bush is betraying them as well as betraying the people of Iraq, the better. I personally think it&#39;s tragic that these people are getting killed for the purposes of the rich and powerful back home, but it&#39;s even more tragic for the Iraqis. And they way to stop it is not for the Americans to "win" and "stabilise Iraq" but to LEAVE and let Iraqis try and fix the mess that Americans have caused. Humanitarian aid should be allowed of course, but not from America (who has just a bit of a vested interest in controlling the country) - and not from any country who wants to impose conditions or put Iraq into its debt.

Tragic? Yes. But necessary for Iraq to start down the road to indepence from Imperialist intervention? You bet your ass.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Originally posted by rioters [email protected] 29 2005, 02:14 AM
i don&#39;t want any more soldiers killed. i&#39;d rather they fuck off out of iraq - along with the multinationals who are settling down there - and give the iraqis a chance to salvage what&#39;s left of their shattered nation. but that doesn&#39;t look set to happen any time soon, so what&#39;s the alternative? tell the insurgents to put down their arms and extend an olive branch of peace to the coalition troops in the hope that they&#39;ll pack up and leave?

not likely.

...

armchair socialism, gravedigger, and anyone else who supports the troops - would you yourself sign up to the military? i sincerely hope your answer is no, and if i&#39;m right, what are your reasons not to? and why don&#39;t the soldiers consider these reasons?
You are either misunderstanding my argument or purposfully presenting a straw-man version of it.

"Tell the insurgents to surrender"? Hell no, they should fight and have self-determination.

"Support the Troops". Well I think the argument here is that you are meaning "support the troops" in the same way that the government does when they say "support our troops" but really mean, "support the aims of the military and the ruling class". I do not support the troops in doing what the military wants them to do. I do support the troops in rebelling from the military for reasons ranging from self-preservation to all-out anti-imperilaist principles.

I&#39;m not going to join the military because I&#39;m anti-imperilaist and know that even "humanitarian" US missions are really only to serve the intrests of the US ruling class.

Why don&#39;t soldiers consider these things beforehand? Well why hasn&#39;t there already been a revolution? Why isn&#39;t every internet forum a pro-worker forum? Consiousness is always mixed and will always be more accepting of ruling class ideas (until we are on the verge of revolution that is). I&#39;ll answer your question with another question: If potential US soldiers are pro-war and pro-imperilaism, why does the military spend so much money in ads that downplay war and imperilaism? Why would there have been the scandal about military recruiters telling high school students that there was an "opt-out" clause if you joined so that you wouldn&#39;t have to be in war? Why does the military target poor students?

[Rojo]

Don&#39;t give me this "oh they are oh so exploited" bullshit. they know damn well what they&#39;re doing, and they willfully do it.

They are exploited&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33; If they knew that they were furthering coporate America why would they sign up in the first place? They think that they are introducing a democracy into Iraq but of course they are not. I agree with the Iraqi resistance but I worry that if the insurgents succeed Suddam&#39;s old friends might just install another authoriatan regime.

[Invader Zim]

Well, in all honesty I don&#39;t really care. Sure I feel bad for them amd their families, but if you become a soldier then surely you accept a certain personal risk. So if you are prepaired to die for something as stupid as your country, then that is your own decision.

I think that the cost of civillian life is of greater importance.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Originally posted by [email protected] 29 2005, 07:59 AM
What do you want the Iraqis to do, not shoot at the people who are shooting them because maybe they joined under economic pressure?
More silly straw-man arguments. The resistance should resist by any means necissary. THey are defending themselves, the debate here is if US troops who sign up for a number of years in return for school money or so on have an intrest in seeing US imperialism win.

I think they do not. They have more of an intrest in seeing US imperilaism loose because then it will have less power to repress workers both at home and over seas. The real threat to soldiers is the ruling class which is sending these kids out to fight for their profits and controll and world domenance. We should be seeking to exploit this contradiction with every available resourse.

What&#39;s the alternative? If you think that the only thing that will stop US imperialism is the resistance killing US troops, then you are an idealist about the US ruling class. If they could get away with killing 10 milion US troops in order to controll Iraq, they would. So without resistance at home as well as withing the US military by the troops, the US will continue the war and more Iraqis will be killed.

[Tekun]

Originally posted by Marxism&#045;[email protected] 29 2005, 08:04 AM
Do American soldiers (or soldiers in general) make surplus-value? No, therefore they are not proletarian.

I don&#39;t care why they "joined up", now that they have they will pay for it, hopefully with their lifes.
I second that brother



The fact is, US troops invade another person&#39;s home
And, that person has a human right to defend his people, his home, and his freedom from those that want to take it from him

I don&#39;t cheer when they kill an American soldier
I just nod my head and recite: with every action comes an equal and opposite reaction&#33;

[Amusing Scrotum]

Not exactly cheering, but let&#39;s call it "flirting" with imperialism:


The sooner Iraq becomes stable, the sooner the occupation will end

It sounded like as a blatant apology for US keeping its troops over there, let me know if meant otherwise...


No the point was that more American deaths will probably lead to a longer stay. If you look at my original statement you will see I also talked about the amount of dead Americans it took before America left Vietnam and therefore the more the Vietnamese suffered.

I think a lot of people here seem to be confusing me not wanting to see more dead people with support for imperialism. The two are completely different. I don&#39;t support imperialism and war precisely because I don&#39;t want to see people dead. This I feel is different from a lot of so called anti-imperialists, who seem to enjoy imperialist interventions just so they can see the imperialists suffer casualties.


i don&#39;t want any more soldiers killed. i&#39;d rather they fuck off out of iraq - along with the multinationals who are settling down there - and give the iraqis a chance to salvage what&#39;s left of their shattered nation. but that doesn&#39;t look set to happen any time soon, so what&#39;s the alternative? tell the insurgents to put down their arms and extend an olive branch of peace to the coalition troops in the hope that they&#39;ll pack up and leave?


I&#39;m not saying the Iraqis shouldn&#39;t pick up arms against the troops, I&#39;m saying that I don&#39;t wish to see any more death or anyone who enjoys this death. Theres a difference.

This debate has little to do with the insurgency and what the insurgency should be doing. It is simply about whether it is right that so many self described leftists should enjoy the deaths of a couple of thousand troops.


armchair socialism, gravedigger, and anyone else who supports the troops - would you yourself sign up to the military? i sincerely hope your answer is no, and if i&#39;m right, what are your reasons not to? and why don&#39;t the soldiers consider these reasons?

I wouldn&#39;t join the military and if you read my posts on this topic you will see why I think people join the military and you will see I don&#39;t think they want to join the military because they want to kill people, I think there are other factors involved. If you wish to have a sensible debate about the reasons why people want to join the military, then I am more than willing.

What annoys me no end, is the constant childish insults thrown here, which have no bearing on what I have said. It has been said that I am an imperialist sympathiser and now you label me with the dumb slogan of "support(ing) the troops." Yet you would not be able to point to a single statement where I have said I support the troops or their mission. I have simply said I do not want to see more people dead.


I don&#39;t why it is, Im not them and Im no psychologist
But as far as Im concerned, they&#39;ve chosen to surround themselves with ignorance
And, they know full well what they&#39;re getting themselves into by joining the army
They live in a dream world, a fantasy, about how good or righteous America is

Any human being with an intellect can see how wrong/evil the army and gov is, and if they choose to close their eyez just to escape the hood, then they deserve what the Iraqi&#39;s are giving them
These dolts have invaded another&#39;s country, and that person has a right to defend his sovereingty and freedom

There are plenty of people with higher intellects than you or I who believe in the Government and the army. So saying that somehow Communists have reached a higher level of intelligence is pretty absurd and elitist.

So again I will ask you if so many people voluntarily choose to be ignorant without any propaganda having an effect, what makes you think they will ever become class conscious enough to conduct a revolution. If they already know the evils of the world and the Government, why do they blatantly ignore them?


Yeah, the workers have chosen to ignore socialism
They&#39;re so brainwashed and ignorant, that they believe workers union&#39;s in a democratic state will solve all their problems
They belief and confidence in this so called "democracy" blinds them to the reality of capitalistic America
Thatz how politicians operate, they blind the workers to believe in a system that exploits the work of others - and the workers eat it up&#33;
And thatz why I blame the workers, if they approached socialism with a neutral and unbiased POV, they&#39;d mos definitely choose it
But they don&#39;t do this, bkuz they&#39;re doltish beliefs lie upon the "righteousness" of American democracy


Here you are admitting propaganda has had a significant effect, "They&#39;re so brainwashed and ignorant." Something you said had no effect earlier in this debate. Then somewhat surprisingly after acknowledging that there has been sinister actions conducted by the ruling class to halt Socialism, you go on to blame the worker for his ignorance and stupidity. You really are a righteous fuck who thinks he has some kind of authority over the "stupid and ignorant" workers, this is an attitude you share with bourgeois politicians, have you ever thought about becoming one?


Enough with the questions bro, Im not them and I can&#39;t answer for them
When a person&#39;s surroundings goes from bad to worse, they will do everything to see the truth
Those who are, to a certain degree comfortable, will look upon the truth skeptically
As socialists, our first priority should be with the oppressed and needy
Then, if they desire, we&#39;ll help those who are "comfortable"


But all these people with terrible surroundings have ignored the truth for a long time now. People in the third world are not fighting for Socialism, so are they comfortable?

I really don&#39;t understand how you can say millions, even billions of people have just ignored Socialism when it would benefit them and not even acknowledge that outside factors such as propaganda and Governmental interference have played a part.


Propaganda is effective when it manipulates the intellect of weak and insecure individuals
And u become weak and insecure by developing a character/personality flaw, not a psychological flaw
All human beings have a brain, we all know the difference between right and wrong
Yet, these soldiers choose to overlook reality, and as a result they&#39;re willing to trade humanity for patriotism
They choose wrong over right

We&#39;ve all been fed propaganda, but it is not propaganda which leads us to take action
Our brain is what makes us take action
Those who are intelligent and willfull reject propaganda, those who are not accept it


Again heres the righteous attitude again. Neither you or I are the most intelligent people in the world. There are millions of intelligent people who don&#39;t want Socialism. These people aren&#39;t all intellectually weak or insecure.

Also to use the right and wrong argument is ludicrous. Its morality and if soldiers killing people is wrong then surely the insurgents killing people is equally wrong. Religious people label things right and wrong, leftists need to look at causes and how to change things to get rid of the causes of these situations. People in Government are not bad people, it is the power that positions of authority give them which leads to bad things happening.


We cannot speculate on the theoretical, so your "survey" is pretty much insignificant

Bro, I don&#39;t celebrate their deaths
All Im saying is that if they invade anothers country for no apparent reason - they deserve total destruction
I don&#39;t like the fact that many of em die, but if they chose to be the agents of capitalism, then as the agents of evil they will soon feel the wrath of those they help to oppress

Again you are being righteous. They are the "agents of evil." This is completely stupid. Capitalism is not some evil entity, it is not the devil. It is a stage in the progression of humanity. It is not more evil than feudalism, likewise it is not more evil than Communism. It is just a stage no more, no less. By saying anything is evil, you fall into a good and evil type situation, which is common with religion and shows a lack of rational and logical thought.

Also how are not celebrating their deaths when you bluntly say "(that) they deserve total destruction." This is like an SS officer saying I don&#39;t celebrate Jewish deaths but they do deserve total destruction. It is not a logical statement.

[Tekun]

^Elitist? Brother, Im anything but elitist
You speak in theoretical and unsubstantiated terms, which should come about, but don&#39;t
I just state what I see, true facts engraved in history


BTW, I see you&#39;ve chosen to insult me for no apparent reason: "you really are a righteous fuck who...."

My previous posts have, in no way shape or form, disrespected you - they&#39;ve stayed on topic
So, seeing how you&#39;ve chosen to personally attack me - it seems that Im arguing with an immature and primitive individual

^So, I will refrain from answering your post, because my further involvement with you would be a waste of my intellect

I don&#39;t mind arguing and discussing a subject, as long as we stay on topic
But, its ludicrous for me to tolerate a callow person who strays off topic and takes personal shots at me

A lil suggestion: grow up and recognize that theory and reality have very few similarities
:rolleyes:

[Amusing Scrotum]

^Elitist? Brother, Im anything but elitist
You speak in theoretical and unsubstantiated terms, which should come about, but don&#39;t
I just state what I see, true facts engraved in history


BTW, I see you&#39;ve chosen to insult me for no apparent reason: "you really are a righteous fuck who...."

My previous posts have, in no way shape or form, disrespected you - they&#39;ve stayed on topic
So, seeing how you&#39;ve chosen to personally attack me - it seems that Im arguing with an immature and primitive individual


How are you not insulting me when you say that I "fight and cater to imperialists." An assumption you make based on no evidence whatsoever. Me calling you righteous is based on evidence, you have repeatedly referred to workers&#39; as "ignorant" as if you are are somehow more enlightened than them. This is my opinion a righteous attitude for you to take. I don&#39;t think I called you an elitist but that also would be a fair judgement.

This attitude of yours is also similar to the righteous way religious people treat atheists. They to view atheists as "ignorant" because they feel, like you do, that they are enlightened and therefore everyone else who doesn&#39;t believe is ignorant. It is a righteous attitude that you and they share, and therefore I do not not think calling you righteous is inappropriate. The "fuck" part may have been uncalled for, but in the context I used it in, the "righteous" part was the offencive term.

Also if you feel my comments are that offencive why don&#39;t you report them to an admin or mod, if your sensitive soul is so offended by well founded criticisms then report me. Otherwise don&#39;t moan.


^So, I will refrain from answering your post, because my further involvement with you would be a waste of my intellect


So you are opting out of the debate because of one mildly offencive comment? And you call me "an immature and primitive individual." :lol:


I don&#39;t mind arguing and discussing a subject, as long as we stay on topic
But, its ludicrous for me to tolerate a callow person who strays off topic and takes personal shots at me

A lil suggestion: grow up and recognize that theory and reality have very few similarities

Where have I strayed off topic? My points were all valid to the progression of this particular debate. I feel it is quite right to point out that you have a "righteous" attitude, especially as you of accused me of a far greater crime, catering to imperialists.

Also what is mildly amusing is how you have accused me on three separate times of lacking maturity, yet you are the person who is making a song and dance about one comment I made and refusing to answer my points. I ask you, who is the more mature person?

[Jimmie Higgins]

Originally posted by [email protected] 31 2005, 12:26 AM
A lil suggestion: grow up and recognize that theory and reality have very few similarities
:rolleyes:
Maybe you&#39;re using the wrong theories then? What good is a theory if it dosn&#39;t attempt to explain reality?

I thought he made some good political points, why not ignore what you see as insults and try and argue the politcal points he brought up:

If US soldiers can be written off because they wen&#39;t able to come to anti-imperialist anti-capitalist conclusions when they were 17 and living at home and joining the military, shouldn&#39;t 3rd world countries where there is no current revolutionary movement be written off?

The Iraqi Communist party supports the US occupation, so are Iraqi workers to be written off as pro-imperilaist? Clearly no. Are Bolivian workers smarter than workers in South Africa because Bolivian workers are engaged in more revolutionary struggle at this time? No, they are seperated because of the material and historical conditions that people in these countries find themselves. Both have the same potential and inherent intrest in the struggle in a marxist view... as do American workers.

If being "comfortable" was what determined if there was to be a revolution or not, we&#39;d all be doomed since being a worker in Bolivia in 2000 is more comfortable than being a bolivian worker in 1950. I don&#39;t think comfort has anything to do with it. More important are the inherent contradictions and features of capitalism which means that workers always are worse off than their bosses and are always more severely subject to wars, natural disaters, and the chaos of capitalism than the rulers of capitalism.

[Amusing Scrotum]

The Iraqi Communist party supports the US occupation, so are Iraqi workers to be written off as pro-imperilaist? Clearly no.

Do you have any information on this?

I have read a bit about the Iraqi Communists and the secular Kurdish left supporting the occupation and this does raise some interesting questions regarding Western Communists supporting the insurgency, which in the main has very little to do with the left and is motivated more by sectarian and religious divisions.

I mean surely we should ally ourselves with the Iraqi Communists, as they are closer to our political goals than the various insurgent groups. And Western Communists ignoring the political opinions of third world Communists does seem slightly racist and certainly elitist.

[Jimmie Higgins]

The Iraqi CP was part of the US created coalition government to my knowledge and cite their opposition to Saddam as their reasoning for supporting the US formed government.

http://www.iraqcp.org/framse1/


The decision to join the political process after the collapse of the regime was based in part on this lived history, but mainly on the need to rebuild a society torn apart by decades of war and sanctions. The best road to national sovereignty and reconstruction was a peaceful one, Ali told me two years ago.

The ICP, to my understanding is more or less a social-democrtic party at this point. In the past they have been Stalinist and then Moaist and even compromised with Saddam in the beginning only to be killed-off by him. They are known as the party of Martyrs in Iraq because they have been targeted and repressed by various regimes in Iraq.

For the ICP it&#39;s like jumping out of the pan (Saddam) and into the fire (the US). It&#39;s crazy in my opinion for them to support a government created by the US when the US spent the last century making sure that all the puppet regimes they supported would do a good job of wipeing people, like the members of the ICP, out&#33;

I don&#39;t find it too hard to believe that a communist party could end up supporting the imperilaists in a way - the Labour party supports neoliberalism in the UK, communist parties in France support capitalist mesures and so on.

[Amusing Scrotum]

Thanks Gravedigger, that was an interesting site. This article (http://www.iraqcp.org/members3/0050803icpe.htm) was especially interesting.

This part I think illustrates what I said earlier -


On the matter of the insurgency, Ali points out, there has been a lot of distortions by people in the West, especially on the left, who’d like to see the ICP and other left and democratic groups and parties in Iraq take a different course. Some on the Western left insist that participation in the political process is a form of collaboration and that the insurgency represents a sort of national liberation movement like that in Vietnam or the anti-apartheid movement in South Africa.

Ali’s response to my question on this comparison wa&#33; s mixed with anger and sarcasm. "This perception has nothing to support it in the real situation in Iraq," he replies. "It doesn’t exist. It’s a myth. It’s dangerous as well," he added. Such a comparison is based on a lack of understanding of the specific situation in Iraq and "makes a mockery" of the national liberation movements in other countries. He suggested that these views were made by folks, however well-intentioned, without any real contacts with Iraqis on the ground.

First, the specific ideologies and goals of the vast majority of the groups that are called "the resistance" need careful scrutiny. Islamic fundamentalists comprise a major portion of the insurgent operations. This section is not interested mainly in rebuilding a unified Iraqi nation on a democratic basis, nor are they much interested in the will of the Iraqi people. Ali agrees that they have an anti-American orientation, but "the extreme fundamentalists groups are for &#33; their own jihadist idea about an Islamic state," Ali says. "They want to fight a war in Iraq because the Americans are there, and they justify it with their fundamentalist creed. But this does not have much support inside Iraq."

Former Ba’athist supporters of the Saddam Hussein regime compose another major section of the insurgency, especially former members of the administrative bureaucracy and his intelligence and security forces. This section is pragmatic and prone to violence rather than anti-imperialist. According to Ali, former Ba’athists are known to collaborate with both the Americans and the Islamic fundamentalist insurgents. They mainly are interested in using terror as a political bargaining chip to regain privileges and positions lost when the Hussein regime collapsed. The Bush administration seems willing to allow them to do so.

In fact, Ali argues, if the Pentagon hadn’t been so inept on the ground in Iraq, their original plan to rehabilitate the Ba’athist intelligence and securit&#33; y apparatus might have been successful. As it stands, however, former regime apparatchiks have struck deals with the US military, US intelligence forces, and other government forces allowing them to attain former privileges, release from detention, and to act as informers on their own neighbors. "Those people have no problems with the Americans," Ali states. "You can detect no hostility by meeting figures of Saddam’s regime who are now in detention." They are simply biding their time waiting for an opportunity regain access to the reigns of power. This, Ali says, is not a basis of any sort of legitimate national liberation movement.

Both of these sections of the insurgency are not above attacking civilians, uniformed Iraqi police, or rescue workers. Car bombings, kidnappings, assassinations are their tools, and Iraqi civilians are the main victims. They have aided the US military’s goal of promoting sectarian divisions and strife as a tool of contro&#33; l and prolonging the occupation. They have targeted labor union leaders, communists, and other democratic-minded people. The fundamentalists have attacked students, workers, and members of other religious institutions.

They have even attacked barbers, says Ali. In recent months, fundamentalists attacked barbershops in the Baghdad area in a wave of violence, killing 12 people. Their claim: barbers are corrupting the youth by promoting shorter hairstyles.

There is a patriotic section of the insurgency, says Ali, that has targeted only US occupation forces and have not attacked civilians or Iraqi police. "We estimate," Ali surmises, "this to be maybe 5 to 10 percent, no more, of the overall operations that take place." But this section of the insurgency hasn’t manifested itself politically and many have since rejoined the political process.

A more detailed view of what the insurgency looks like should discard the broad brush strokes used to idealize the insurgency as a national liberation movement, Ali adds&#33; . The Bush administration also favors describing the situation in abstract, generalizing terms. We hear terms like "Sunni Arabs," the "insurgency," and "Shi’ites" specifically to cloud the issues and promote an image of Iraq as a confused and dangerous place. Antiwar political movements shouldn’t aid in clouding the issues with fantastic historical comparisons. Distorted views of the Iraqi reality "doesn’t help in understanding the situation and doesn’t help to develop solidarity with the democratic and anti-occupation forces," Ali concludes.

At the present, armed opposition, even from patriotic forces, isn’t the path the vast majority of Iraqi people have chosen as the best avenue to regaining national sovereignty and an end to the occupation, Ali points out. "When you had 8 million out of 14 million come out for the elections," Ali wonders, "isn’t that an indication? What does that mean? At worst, Iraq society is divide&#33; d. Sixty percent decided to take a risk and take part in the political process." This figure would have been much higher given a better security situation.

Participation in the political process, however flawed, Ali says, is the will of the people. That the process was established by the occupation and therefore wholly illegitimate, he suggests, is a flawed analysis. The occupation forces have not always been able to impose their will on the political process. The current timetable endorsed by the UN Security Council Resolution 1546 was not authored by the Bush administration but was the result of a struggle between Iraqis and the occupation forces.

I think it is important for us to at least take into account the views of the Iraqi Communist Party with regards the situation in Iraq. After all they are surely a good source of information and their goals are definitely to end the suffering of the Iraqi people. To discard their opinions completely is I think very hypocritical of anyone who claims to be part of the left.

[Jimmie Higgins]

While I don&#39;t think that the resistance is a broad national liberation movement (hence, "resitance", not "liberation movement") I do think that the ICP is mistaken in supporting the new Iraqi government. It is in line with mistakes they have made in the past in subverting class struggle for a seat at the table of some dubious forces (such as Saddam at points).

If they were to fight and resist on the ground level (not even becoming fighters, but mobilizing anti-occupation workers in urban areas where they have a strong base of support) they could help be a counterforce to some of the more reactionary factions within the resistance and help to unite the resistance on a class and national struggle basis which then could develop into a broad national liberation movement. Instead, they are supporting a government that is corrupt and brought about through imperilaism. This is a mistake to think that the people who allowed the Ba&#39;athists to rule and kill communists and Kurds and jewish Iraqis and attak Iran and so on are going to allow a progressive communist movement to exist let alone allow real soverignty for Iraq.

THe ICP began out of groups resisting the a puppet of the British government and now they&#39;ve come full circle but are supporting and participating in the puppet government. And although they are the most well-established communist group in Iraq, there are others who condemn the occupation and the new government, so I don&#39;t think the argument that westerners can&#39;t understand Iraq is all that valid when there are Iraqi communists who disagree with the ICP and support resistance.

[Amusing Scrotum]

While I don&#39;t think that the resistance is a broad national liberation movement (hence, "resitance", not "liberation movement") I do think that the ICP is mistaken in supporting the new Iraqi government. It is in line with mistakes they have made in the past in subverting class struggle for a seat at the table of some dubious forces (such as Saddam at points).


I think trying to gain some favour with Saddam is understandable. Maybe they thought if they were able to gain some influence they could stop some of the atrocities. Lets not forget that when people suffer extreme repression they do things that can be easily criticised from a detached viewpoint but needs to be look at through the eyes of those who are in the situation.


If they were to fight and resist on the ground level (not even becoming fighters, but mobilizing anti-occupation workers in urban areas where they have a strong base of support) they could help be a counterforce to some of the more reactionary factions within the resistance and help to unite the resistance on a class and national struggle basis which then could develop into a broad national liberation movement. Instead, they are supporting a government that is corrupt and brought about through imperilaism. This is a mistake to think that the people who allowed the Ba&#39;athists to rule and kill communists and Kurds and jewish Iraqis and attak Iran and so on are going to allow a progressive communist movement to exist let alone allow real soverignty for Iraq.


This is what they are doing. From what I have read on their site they are trying to build unity and peaceful resistance. They feel that if Iraq is stable, the pressure on the coalition to withdraw would be huge and therefore they would withdraw. They are very critical of America and what America is doing and therefore they aren&#39;t really giving legitimacy to the American invasion. They stressed on their site that the elections contravened the Geneva convention. Once again I will say I feel we should not completely disregard their views as they are the people who are actually there and are actively trying to restore Iraq.


THe ICP began out of groups resisting the a puppet of the British government and now they&#39;ve come full circle but are supporting and participating in the puppet government. And although they are the most well-established communist group in Iraq, there are others who condemn the occupation and the new government, so I don&#39;t think the argument that westerners can&#39;t understand Iraq is all that valid when there are Iraqi communists who disagree with the ICP and support resistance.

They do condemn the occupation though they feel the elections are a necessary step towards Iraqi freedom. Again they are the ones who are actively involved in this situation and therefore their views on this can&#39;t be completely ignored.

As for the other Iraqi Communists I would be interesting to hear their opinions, but been as the ICP is the only Communist group I have heard of in Iraq, I feel it is appropriate that I at least respect their views.

Also they did point out that only 5-10% of the resistance is interested in liberation and have been opposing the coalition forces. The rest they say seems to be very sectarian and somewhat fanatic. They pointed out that this same resistance that many here praise, "have targeted labor union leaders, communists, and other democratic-minded people. The fundamentalists have attacked students, workers, and members of other religious institutions." Its quite understandable that they feel creating any kind of liberation movement with people like this is not going to be very productive.

The ICP is caught in a very unfavourable situation between to reactionary groups and they have come to the practical solution, as it seems most of the Iraqi population has, that the resistance is not going to work and will likely create more suffering. Therefore their main aim is to rebuild Iraq. Although this will disappoint a lot of Western Communists with romantic notions of liberation struggles, it is what the ICP sees as the practical solution to the material conditions they are presented with. Who am I to criticise the views of the Iraqi left on Iraq?

[Dark Exodus]

What happened to the argument about minorities and poor people being the majority in the American army?


It&#39;s probably not the same people posting anyway, but it is a thought,

[Amusing Scrotum]

What happened to the argument about minorities and poor people being the majority in the American army?

Its evolved. ;)

[Hiero]

I think they do not. They have more of an intrest in seeing US imperilaism loose because then it will have less power to repress workers both at home and over seas.

They have never shown any interest in this. Imperialism is actually giving them jobs. As people said many US citizens join the army due to economic problems. So the US army is cartering for them. If there is no imperialism, there is no jobs for these people.

Most soldiers are willing to fight, they however may not be willing to die. Last year or maybe early this year, a few soldiers were "rebeling". They didn&#39;t want to escort a oil truck, the reason being their cars were not bullet proof. This is a common thing, that soldiers will be stubon to fight if they can&#39;t get a higher guarantee that they will survive. So once the blind patriotism wears off, it becomes a normal job. It is rare that they come to conclusion that what they are doing is imperialism.

This was evident in another documentory that followed a group of soldiers on their tours. When one of them got a letter from home, it mentions the anti war protest. Alot of the anti war protest have been for the welfare for soldier. When he read that part of the letter out the reply was "why are they doing this" "to help us" "if they want to help us they should join the army and come fight with us, we need help fighting".

That wasn&#39;t the excact quote, but these were average soldiers who came to the conclusion the best thing to do was kill as many resistance fighters as possible, that way they wont get shoot.

We shouldn&#39;t waste much time trying to convice soldeirs, who are at distance in Iraq, that they should rebel.

We should be aiming to stop imperialism. They way to do this is expose the conditions the Iraqi people face, expose the economic and political reasons for the war and expose lies that withdrawl will bring chaos.


What&#39;s the alternative? If you think that the only thing that will stop US imperialism is the resistance killing US troops, then you are an idealist about the US ruling class. If they could get away with killing 10 milion US troops in order to controll Iraq, they would.

That statement actually shows your American centricism. We only care about the real victims of US imperialism, and that is the poor people of the 3rd world.

I suspect the only reason you want to end this war is because US troops are dying. That is the thing that you seem to be focusing on.

On that point though, the US would never send 10 million people to die. The US would never go into Total War over Iraq. For starters its not economicaly possible, and would leave the US in ruins. There is a point where a war is not politicaly and economicaly worth it.

Second the haven&#39;t the man power to send 10 million troops to war. If they could the last 9 million would be the bottom of lader.

Thirdly, the war would become more unpopular by ten thousand troops. If it reached 100 000 the US would pull out. Probally before then.

This is the excact point, to tire the US to the point where they can not afford to stay in Iraq. This is what happen in Vietnam.


I don&#39;t support imperialism and war precisely because I don&#39;t want to see people dead

Then you support imperialism if no one dies? Or the deaths are smaller?

A American Socialist highlighted this point at a rally (it was that rally where the party organising the even were being thugs, mentioned a few months ago). He took notice that many socialist and other anti war groups were showing the amount of money it took to invade and the amount of US soldiers that have died. He asked the question then do you support imperialism if we can do it cheap and with less deaths.

The main reason a communist is anti imperialist is because of the conditions it creates for the people, and they way it takes away sovereignty from that nation.

Regardless of who the US invades whether Sadam or failing leaders in Haiti, it replaces them with a government that benifits the US rulling class.


This debate has little to do with the insurgency and what the insurgency should be doing. It is simply about whether it is right that so many self described leftists should enjoy the deaths of a couple of thousand troops.


True, we shouldn&#39;t be happy about killings. We should acknowledge that they are neccassary however.

We however shouldn&#39;t base our reason for being anti-imperialist on emotions.


People in the third world are not fighting for Socialism, so are they comfortable?

People in the third world HAVE been fighting for socialism for many years now. However you and many others pefer to dismiss these movements and feel free to tell the board how they should be fighting the battle, or that they should wait for the working class, from the same nation who invade them, to revolt and come save them.


If US soldiers can be written off because they wen&#39;t able to come to anti-imperialist anti-capitalist conclusions when they were 17 and living at home and joining the military, shouldn&#39;t 3rd world countries where there is no current revolutionary movement be written off?

The difference being, the US soldier is not the main force in building socialism, the 3rd world people are.


The Iraqi Communist party supports the US occupation, so are Iraqi workers to be written off as pro-imperilaist?

Parties only over leadership to the work class. Then ICP gave up trying to be leaders of the Iraqi working class when it began collaborating.


I mean surely we should ally ourselves with the Iraqi Communists, as they are closer to our political goals than the various insurgent groups.

Because they are called Communists? Should we ally ourselfs with the Communist Party of China?

We ally ourselves based on thoose who are communist, not thoose who claim to be. The actions of the maintstream Iraqi Communists show their true colours.

Also you shouldn&#39;t doubt that there aren&#39;t any communist fighting in the insurgency. There is some various small communist parties who are fighting, there would also be many individual or to be communists.


And Western Communists ignoring the political opinions of third world Communists does seem slightly racist and certainly elitist.

You do all the time. As you showed us when you said there are no 3rd world people fighting for socialism.

What we are doing is determing who is and who isn&#39;t a real Communist.


They have targeted labor union leaders, communists, and other democratic-minded people. The fundamentalists have attacked students, workers, and members of other religious institutions.

We shouldn&#39;t jump to conclusion these people were good for the Iraqi people. Many of these people are collaborates. If they are making life easier for the US, why shouldn&#39;t they be killed like the US?

We have to be clear on something, leadership and the masses.

The leadership and the masses is not always political or religious alligned. What has happen is that no Communist Party has the power to be the leadership, the ICP gave up that role. The masses however need leadership to fight the imperialist. At the current time the religious order is the best leadership. So we can&#39;t assume that all the Iraqi fighters are religious.

The best leadership is a Communist Party. They have the best ability to unify. They have a plan for a post war Iraq, they have the best ability to distribute party propaganda and create political aware comrades. However there is none in Iraq.

After liberation, most likely the religious groups will fail as leaders of the masses. However they offer the best leadership so far for resistance, this is due the ICP&#39;s revisionism, which caused them to give up the rightful claim of leadership of the Iraqi masses.

So don&#39;t assume the leadership best represents the masses. If your homeland was invaded, and the Church gave the best leadership would you not fight with the Church?

[Amusing Scrotum]

Hiero, I don&#39;t think the first two quotes of your post refer to arguments made by me, I can&#39;t see anywhere where I made those statements. If they do refer to me, please point out where I said these things and I will happily answer your points.


Then you support imperialism if no one dies? Or the deaths are smaller?

A American Socialist highlighted this point at a rally (it was that rally where the party organising the even were being thugs, mentioned a few months ago). He took notice that many socialist and other anti war groups were showing the amount of money it took to invade and the amount of US soldiers that have died. He asked the question then do you support imperialism if we can do it cheap and with less deaths.

The main reason a communist is anti imperialist is because of the conditions it creates for the people, and they way it takes away sovereignty from that nation.

Regardless of who the US invades whether Sadam or failing leaders in Haiti, it replaces them with a government that benifits the US rulling class.


The statement you quoted is not my whole reason for not supporting imperialism, however even if it was then it would still be impossible for me to support imperialism as it creates death and destruction, directly or indirectly.


True, we shouldn&#39;t be happy about killings. We should acknowledge that they are neccassary however.

We however shouldn&#39;t base our reason for being anti-imperialist on emotions.


Thats all I&#39;m asking that we don&#39;t celebrate killings. As for basing anti imperialism on emotion, well thats obvious. You have to feel a certain amount of disgust for civilian casualties of war, or the economic raping of a country etc. in order for you to oppose it. We are human after all and if we were not emotionally disgusted by these things then we would support them.


People in the third world HAVE been fighting for socialism for many years now. However you and many others pefer to dismiss these movements and feel free to tell the board how they should be fighting the battle, or that they should wait for the working class, from the same nation who invade them, to revolt and come save them.


This is what happens when you pick one statement and take it out of the context of the debate.

This is the original context -



Enough with the questions bro, Im not them and I can&#39;t answer for them
When a person&#39;s surroundings goes from bad to worse, they will do everything to see the truth
Those who are, to a certain degree comfortable, will look upon the truth skeptically
As socialists, our first priority should be with the oppressed and needy
Then, if they desire, we&#39;ll help those who are "comfortable"

But all these people with terrible surroundings have ignored the truth for a long time now. People in the third world are not fighting for Socialism, so are they comfortable?

I really don&#39;t understand how you can say millions, even billions of people have just ignored Socialism when it would benefit them and not even acknowledge that outside factors such as propaganda and Governmental interference have played a part.

You will see my point was that a lot of people in the third world ignore Socialism yet they are not comfortable. Thus dispelling Tekun&#39;s notion that only people who live in relative comfort can ignore Socialism. I was simply stating that it doesn&#39;t always happen this way. This does not mean I am discarding Socialist movements in the third world, its just you&#39;ve chosen to take something completely out of context and tried to make a big issue out of it.

I&#39;ll come back to the debate about the ICP later as right now I have to go to College. All in all I think that debate could be fairly interesting.

[Amusing Scrotum]

Because they are called Communists? Should we ally ourselfs with the Communist Party of China?

We ally ourselves based on thoose who are communist, not thoose who claim to be. The actions of the maintstream Iraqi Communists show their true colours.

Also you shouldn&#39;t doubt that there aren&#39;t any communist fighting in the insurgency. There is some various small communist parties who are fighting, there would also be many individual or to be communists.

I think theres a fundamental difference between the Chinese CP and the Iraqi CP. Mainly that the Chinese are in power, they have not lived for years under a brutal dictator. The ICP have and for most of that time they probably feared for their lives so they compromised their principles. We do this every time we buy a piece of clothing, yet having a new t-shirt is far less important than staying alive.

I don&#39;t know much about the ICP but I would imagine a lot of their actions compromised some of their beliefs during the Saddam era. However I don&#39;t think its really fair to blame them for self preservation and also they were one of the main documenters of Saddam&#39;s crimes.

Also as you said the Communist presence in the insurgency is very small, I have not seen their views on this for the moment so therefore I am inclined to let go of some of my idealism and side with the ICP.


You do all the time. As you showed us when you said there are no 3rd world people fighting for socialism.


As I have already pointed out you took that quote completely out of the context of the debate to try and score petty points. Point out a single quote where I have dismissed the third world Socialists, go on search for it. I will point out it will be a fruitless task as I have never made such a statement.


What we are doing is determing who is and who isn&#39;t a real Communist.


Fair enough, but I will say this the accusation could be made Stalin sided with Capitalist countries. This statement is true. Yet when you look deeper it is obvious he only sided with the Capitalist countries and accepted American aid because of the situation he was in, WW2. Stalin like the ICP was willing to compromise his beliefs to ensure self preservation, the ICP have too done this.

Sometimes idealism takes a back seat because the situation requires someone to be practical not idealistic. Its politics.


We shouldn&#39;t jump to conclusion these people were good for the Iraqi people. Many of these people are collaborates. If they are making life easier for the US, why shouldn&#39;t they be killed like the US?


Oh yes because those Union leaders, Communists and pro democracy advocates where all evil agents of American imperialism. They are on the whole trying to make life easier for the Iraqis&#39; and unless you haven&#39;t noticed the majority of Iraqis&#39; don&#39;t want a national liberation movement. They are quite happy with bourgeois democracy because its a lot better than tyrannical dictators. They want peace and stability not a long drawn out liberation struggle which would result in thousands of deaths.

Again I think your views kind of reiterate the point in the article I posted, "Some on the Western left insist that participation in the political process is a form of collaboration and that the insurgency represents a sort of national liberation movement like that in Vietnam or the anti-apartheid movement in South Africa.

Ali’s response to my question on this comparison wa&#33; s mixed with anger and sarcasm. "This perception has nothing to support it in the real situation in Iraq," he replies. "It doesn’t exist. It’s a myth. It’s dangerous as well," he added. Such a comparison is based on a lack of understanding of the specific situation in Iraq and "makes a mockery" of the national liberation movements in other countries. He suggested that these views were made by folks, however well-intentioned, without any real contacts with Iraqis on the ground."

Don&#39;t you think that we should at least think about what the ICP thinks? (3 thinks in one sentence, I need to increase my vocabulary. <_< )

Also its useful to realise that the ICP opposed the invasion, they are incredibly critical of the American Government and its actions therefore its silly to label them as collaborators.


We have to be clear on something, leadership and the masses.

The masses will decide for themselves and at the moment they have chosen bourgeois democracy over more bloodshed. No one can possibly blame them for this decision.


The leadership and the masses is not always political or religious alligned. What has happen is that no Communist Party has the power to be the leadership, the ICP gave up that role. The masses however need leadership to fight the imperialist. At the current time the religious order is the best leadership. So we can&#39;t assume that all the Iraqi fighters are religious.

Again you&#39;re missing a couple of important facts, the masses don&#39;t seem to really want to take up arms and the religious leadership is extremely regressive and reactionary.

I think it is wrong of the left to try and make a Vietnam type situation out of Iraq because the two situations are poles apart.


The best leadership is a Communist Party. They have the best ability to unify. They have a plan for a post war Iraq, they have the best ability to distribute party propaganda and create political aware comrades. However there is none in Iraq.


Iraq is not exactly a haven for the distribution of Communist literature at the moment. The ICP seem to be trying to make the best out of a bad situation.


After liberation, most likely the religious groups will fail as leaders of the masses. However they offer the best leadership so far for resistance, this is due the ICP&#39;s revisionism, which caused them to give up the rightful claim of leadership of the Iraqi masses.

One, the ICP would not likely become a large factor in the liberation effort and two, there is very little evidence to support your theory that these religious leaders will lose power. Look what happened to the Communists who fought in the Iranian revolution, they were killed after the revolution. Religious fundamentalism and Communism have very little in common and the results of this great unity for liberation you want would very likely be calamitous.


So don&#39;t assume the leadership best represents the masses. If your homeland was invaded, and the Church gave the best leadership would you not fight with the Church?

This depends, was the Church going to install a theocracy? Also the ICP seem to realise that the likely results of a victorious liberation struggle would be a tyrant like Saddam. Surely you realise that bourgeois democracy is far better than a tyrannical dictator. Its the lesser of two evils approach and while it may compromise your lofty ideals, it seems a lot more practical to me.

[Jimmie Higgins]

They have never shown any interest in this (opposinf imperilaism).Um, read some history of the GI movement in Vietnam.


Imperialism is actually giving them jobs. As people said many US citizens join the army due to economic problems. So the US army is cartering for them. If there is no imperialism, there is no jobs for these people.It&#39;s going to take a broad radicalization of workers and low-level troops to defeat imperilaism and if we can do that, then people will already have draw the much less radical conclusion that people should have acess to education and jobs without having to sign their life over to the military first.

Jobs&#33; Really? Well why argue that immigrents have an intrest in keeping sweatshops and harsh farmworker conditions going since these things give immigrents jobs&#33;


Most soldiers are willing to fight, they however may not be willing to die. Last year or maybe early this year, a few soldiers were "rebeling". They didn&#39;t want to escort a oil truck, the reason being their cars were not bullet proof. This is a common thing, that soldiers will be stubon to fight if they can&#39;t get a higher guarantee that they will survive. So once the blind patriotism wears off, it becomes a normal job. It is rare that they come to conclusion that what they are doing is imperialism.Being "lefter-than-thou" dosn&#39;t hurt the US war machine. Refusing orders for personal preservation may not be radical, but it actually helps hobble the military&#39;s ability to wage war. This is how rebellions began in Vietnam (CYA: cover your ass), but as CYA grunts met opposition from their commanders, it helped radicalize them to the point where by 1968-1972 many saw the US military and governmnet as more of a threat than the Vietnamese&#33;


This was evident in another documentory that followed a group of soldiers on their tours. When one of them got a letter from home, it mentions the anti war protest. Alot of the anti war protest have been for the welfare for soldier. When he read that part of the letter out the reply was "why are they doing this" "to help us" "if they want to help us they should join the army and come fight with us, we need help fighting".WHere was this? CNN? I also saw a report where, when asked if he&#39;d come across any terrorists, a grun replied: "No, just a lot of poor people with no water". THis was on CNN and they then had other soldiers refute this other soldier&#39;s claim - in, sure, so that no one would accuse CNN of not being "fair and balenced" like their competator FOX.


We should be aiming to stop imperialism. They way to do this is expose the conditions the Iraqi people face, expose the economic and political reasons for the war and expose lies that withdrawl will bring chaos.I agree with this and think that this will help create a space for soldiers to rebel. It&#39;s hard to raise your voice if you are the only one (especially in the military where you don&#39;t have as much freedom of speech), but if we create a larger movement and can support anti-war GI coffeehouses (again history of the VIetnam anti-war movement), then we can create an oppening which will radicalize both civilians and soldiers. Soldiers are only more important in that their rebellion has the potential to actually hurt the US war.



What&#39;s the alternative? If you think that the only thing that will stop US imperialism is the resistance killing US troops, then you are an idealist about the US ruling class. If they could get away with killing 10 milion US troops in order to controll Iraq, they would.


That statement actually shows your American centricism. We only care about the real victims of US imperialism, and that is the poor people of the 3rd world.

I suspect the only reason you want to end this war is because US troops are dying. That is the thing that you seem to be focusing on.Don&#39;t make an ass out of yourself. Did you read the rest of my quotes? Every dead American soldier represents 10x as many dead Iraqis at least. If you think the only way this war will end is by killing enough US troops, you are condeming Iraq to a higher death toll than the Vietnamese&#33; Marxists should learn the lessons of history and the lessons of Vietnam are that the US government is willing to fight a loosing battle for a decade at least and willing to kill 100s of thousands of people to achieve its goals. Finally, what stopped the US was the breakdown of the US military, not some huge defeat of it from the Liberation movement.


On that point though, the US would never send 10 million people to die. The US would never go into Total War over Iraq. For starters its not economicaly possible, and would leave the US in ruins. There is a point where a war is not politicaly and economicaly worth it.Yeah, a decade and 500,000 dead Iraqis later.


Second the haven&#39;t the man power to send 10 million troops to war. If they could the last 9 million would be the bottom of lader.I was speaking hypothetically since there would be an all-out revolution in the US and the resto of the world would turn against the US before it has a chance to kill 10 million Iraqis let alone send 10 million US troops in.


Thirdly, the war would become more unpopular by ten thousand troops. If it reached 100 000 the US would pull out. Probally before then.Why because the ruling class would suddenlt grow a heart like the Grinch? Or because that much death would radicalize the US population against their own government and the US would fear rebellion and even revolution?


This is the excact point, to tire the US to the point where they can not afford to stay in Iraq. This is what happen in Vietnam.The Paris peace accords happened in part because the US was "tired" of the ground war and soldiers wouldn&#39;t fight it any more. But was Nixon tired? No, he just ordered planes in to bomb Vietnam and then expanded the war to bombings of cambodia&#33;



This debate has little to do with the insurgency and what the insurgency should be doing. It is simply about whether it is right that so many self described leftists should enjoy the deaths of a couple of thousand troops.


True, we shouldn&#39;t be happy about killings. We should acknowledge that they are neccassary however.I agree, they are necissary and Iraqis should defend themselves. However, is that enough? If you want to see this war go on for another decade or two then I guess it is. It don&#39;t think it&#39;s enough to cheer the Iraqis on from the sidelines. We should (thouse of us in the US/UK) be figureing out how to build an anti-war movement that won&#39;t cave in when a Democrat is elected and continues the war or if the UN takes a bigger part of the occupation or so on. We should also be protesting ROTC and military recruiters and argueing for our working class brothers and sisters not to join. But as I believe the history of the Vietnma war shows, the radicalization of US troops and their realization that their enemy is their own officers and the government, not Iraqis has the greatest potential for jamming the gears of imperilaism.

In practice this means not condeming Iraqis for resisting, but also not celebrating the deaths of grunts in our protests and propaganda. Instead we should be building a civilian anti-war movement and trying to organize the soldiers who are already drawing anti-war/anti-imperilaist conclusions and trying to convince more to disobey and rebel.