Gradualism

[Rawthentic]

I believe that while it is still possible to avoid it, we should avoid violence right now. we can begin huge marches with a 100,000 people or more to wake the country up. Non profit organizations are dong their job for a new social model that will bring justice and equality for all and where society comes before the market. you do your jobs to educate the people. dont try to persuade people personally to join our cause because they will label as a loonie. meet people who would benefit from this revolution and talk to them and ask them what they need, dont try to educate them because they will label you as a typical American crusader. learn from them and find out the social conditions and show them how they can have better lives after you hear their story. if gradualism does not work and the reactionaries stay firm, then we grab our guns and fight, because then it will be our last resort for justice. we must not resort to violence until conditions call for it, until oppression is unstoppable, because the means justify the ends. si no se puede mas, pues aggaremos las 30/30's y trairemos la justicia! thanks comrades, and hasta la victoria siempre!

[Urban Guerrilla]

If it means peace so be it, but a dramatic change that you are speaking of will result in a non-peaceful revolution. Millions of people marched around the world against the war in Iraq and that didn't do anything :che:

[which doctor]

Hundreds of thousands of people in the US and around the world have marched, but the world continues to ignore them. The media is responsible because they do not show people these protests. Instead they show these people the latest in Hollywood. Americans are taught by the media that Hollywood is more important that global issues that drive people to organize in masses and protest. I agree that a peaceful revolution would be best, but unfortunetly I don't think it will be possible.

[farleft]

This smells of liberal reformism.

Its very sad to say that violence is the only way communism will come about, I wish there was another way but there isnt!

You have to wake up and realise this, it is very important, until people like you start admiting this then the sooner we can actually work on bringing about communism via direct action against the state.

You do realise that the guy in your signature and picture is Ernesto Guevara, a man must respected for his action of violence against the Batista government in Cuba (amongst other places), he wasnt just marching, shoulting and protesting, he actually did direct action, he killed people for the cause of communism.
The Castro's, Guevara and comrades were only a few men compared to the regime, they didnt go round and count peoples opinions, they just went for it because they knew it was right, they knew that once they started people would automatically be on their side.
Waiting around until things get really shit in this/any country before we start taking action is not the answer, as leftists we should ALL be doing as much as we can against the state now/as soon as possible.

[Gnosis]

The only revolution is peace.
Violence is nothing new, it will bring no more good change than the current governing system.
Violence breeds only violence.
The more violently we act, the more violently they will retaliate.
They have bigger guns than we do, they have more resources than we do, they have more "intelligence" than we do, this is not a fair fight when it comes to weapons.
But we have something they don't, and that is a goel to reach and an oppression to fight.
I do not think we should not fight, but I think we should do it in a non-violent way.
Violence is primitive and brutality should be considered the way of the unevolved.
Using violence against these people will only allow them to justify killing us and making a mockery of our cause.
Using violence aginst these people will allow them to further their own killing technology.
They will be better at killing people like us in the future if we resort to violence now.
We must realize that they are the will of God made manifest just as we are.
We should not fear or hate them for they are one with ourself and to hate them is to hate ourself.
We know their weaknesses just as they know ours, we should not exploit them, we should not condemn them for having the same weaknesses as we do.
We should extend our hand to them in love so that they mat take it and see the error of their ways.
We must teach them that they are wrong by setting an example of what is right.
We must trust them, but not allow them to rule our lives.
We must teach them that they do not own us, they ARE us, and we are them.
We are equal, each one of us, even if we are tyrants and murderers and capatalist pigs.
I feel pity for the president, he is an unconscious man.
How can we blame the unconscious for what they do in their sleep?
Change will come but it need not be violent.
It need not be peaceful either, but I believe we will end up in a better place if we go about getting there in peace rather than in war.
And that is what is really important, not where we are going, not where we have been, but where we are.
Where we are can change, and it will change, but it must be done right or else all of our actions will have been for nothing but the continuation of that which we tried so hard to end.
We must live as though the revolution has already taken place.
And then it has.
We must not work for the government, we must not listen to them, we must not give them a place in our homes by buying their products or watching their television.
We must not speak to them through violence, but let our peace speak for ourselves.
By fighting against the government you are depending on the government for a way of life.
Depending on the government for anything, especially the meaning of life is counter revolutionary and should not occur unless one is determined to lead a life in the name of futility.
Government is irrelevent, it has not control over me unless I allow it to, but even then it is I who am allowing it to.
If everyone stops depending on the government for life and meaning, we are all free.
Turn off your televisions, tear down your home, plant a forest where it once stood, and then kill yourself in a loving manner.
That is my proposition.
But why have I yet to do it?
I feel I am not finished with my life yet.
But I assure you, when I am through, when the time is right, I will.

[Rawthentic]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2005, 04:33 AM
This smells of liberal reformism.

Its very sad to say that violence is the only way communism will come about, I wish there was another way but there isnt!

You have to wake up and realise this, it is very important, until people like you start admiting this then the sooner we can actually work on bringing about communism via direct action against the state.

You do realise that the guy in your signature and picture is Ernesto Guevara, a man must respected for his action of violence against the Batista government in Cuba (amongst other places), he wasnt just marching, shoulting and protesting, he actually did direct action, he killed people for the cause of communism.
The Castro's, Guevara and comrades were only a few men compared to the regime, they didnt go round and count peoples opinions, they just went for it because they knew it was right, they knew that once they started people would automatically be on their side.
Waiting around until things get really shit in this/any country before we start taking action is not the answer, as leftists we should ALL be doing as much as we can against the state now/as soon as possible.
no i am not a liberal reformist. i am a socilaist and i beleive in a socialist state and viloence if needed. dont give me that about che guevara because if there is someone who lives by his ideals, it is me. all im saying is that peace would be much better than violence. thanks comrade

[farleft]

Of course peace would be preferable to violence but its impossible, very unrealistic.

The sooner ALL leftists realise that violence is the only remaining option the sooner we can get on with changing things rather than just wasting our time and resources with marches and protests.

[Rawthentic]

Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2005, 04:44 AM
Of course peace would be preferable to violence but its impossible, very unrealistic.

The sooner ALL leftists realise that violence is the only remaining option the sooner we can get on with changing things rather than just wasting our time and resources with marches and protests.
no offense comrade, but we still must keep trying until there is no other option but to grab our guns and demand freedom and liberty. if it comes to that, i will put my banner down and grab my gun. until now, i will keep trying . thanks comrade

[workersunity]

Originally posted by Urban [email protected] 24 2005, 06:53 PM
If it means peace so be it, but a dramatic change that you are speaking of will result in a non-peaceful revolution. Millions of people marched around the world against the war in Iraq and that didn't do anything :che:
Ya its sad but true, yet we mustnt stop those protests

[bezdomni]

Instead of marching in the streets with banners and signs, bring guns and bombs.

[farleft]

Originally posted by hastalavictoria+Oct 26 2005, 09:47 PM--> (hastalavictoria @ Oct 26 2005, 09:47 PM)
[email protected] 26 2005, 04:44 AM
Of course peace would be preferable to violence but its impossible, very unrealistic.

The sooner ALL leftists realise that violence is the only remaining option the sooner we can get on with changing things rather than just wasting our time and resources with marches and protests.
no offense comrade, but we still must keep trying until there is no other option but to grab our guns and demand freedom and liberty. if it comes to that, i will put my banner down and grab my gun. until now, i will keep trying . thanks comrade [/b]
So tell me comrade, what exactly has to happen for you to realise that peaceful means will not work?

[Jimmie Higgins]

Originally posted by workersunity+Oct 26 2005, 11:12 PM--> (workersunity @ Oct 26 2005, 11:12 PM)
Urban [email protected] 24 2005, 06:53 PM
If it means peace so be it, but a dramatic change that you are speaking of will result in a non-peaceful revolution. Millions of people marched around the world against the war in Iraq and that didn't do anything :che:
Ya its sad but true, yet we mustnt stop those protests [/b]
I think thoes protests can accoplish something. Protesting once a year won't stop the war alone, but the big effects of the few big protests against the war have had a big impact.

Bush didn't even need any real explaination for the Afganistan war, but real opposition to the Iraq war (only surpassed by the Iraqi insurgancey itself) set Bush up for the position he is now in. The anti-war movement has also helped to create a decrease in recruitment to the military as well as encouraged troops to question and resist the war. The fact that Bush must continuely argue why we can't "cut and run" shows the pressue and shift in consiousness about the war.

As for the question about nonviolence... violence will never be instigated by us. At the time of the revolution the ruling class will use violence to try and hold power and we will have to defend ourselves. Even when we have small strikes, the businessmen will not hesitate to use violence if they are either pushed into a corner or think that they can simply get away with it. At the same time, violence for the sake of impacience with the corse of history will achive us nothing. If we do not have the support of a major chunk of the working class, people on our side will easily be picked-off and marginalized. This is why organization is more important and essential for our cause than guns.

[farleft]

Gravedigger. If protests worked then the USA would not be in Iraq to this very day occupying Iraq and killing innocent Iraqis.

Nothing has been achieved. As for "violence will never be started by us" that really is irrelevent because "we" have already been attacked and "we" are continueing to be attacked everyday of our lives but "us" leftists are just sitting back and taking it. Its time we defended ourselves by striking back against our oppressors.

Unless of course you are too young to be one of the wage-slaves like the rest of us?

[Jimmie Higgins]

"violence will never be started by us" precicely because the class war is alwys going on to various degrees. I meant that in the sense that any violence by workers is automaticlly self-defense since we did not instigate and set up this sytem that is harful to us.

As for protests. Reread my post: "Protests alone won't do it". But protests are essentil for mobalizing and organizing and radicalizing our side since workers do not control the airwaves and radical ideas are easy to dismiss without a mass movement backing these ideas up and showing our strength.

Saying protesting is useless and we should just train for gurella warfare (I don't know if that's your argument or not) is hopscotching over worker's consiousness and a sloppy imacient shortcut to actually building class consiousness and convincing workers of revolution. How can the working class ever take power if they are not even thinking about revolution when some group of wannabe ches tries to incite one with gurella warfare?

[Jimmie Higgins]

Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2005, 10:55 AM
Unless of course you are too young to be one of the wage-slaves like the rest of us?
Oh my god I can't come back to this one! Why are you treating me as the enemy for having conclusions about protesting that are not the same as yours? Personal attacks are really a sign of weak politics.

I think it's irrelevant to try and class-bait like this... we should judge comments on how correct they are politically, how well they argue forward for workers, not if they are coming from a professor, a rich kid, or a worker.

Additionally assumptions are just setting yourself up for a fall: My parents are both union members and I have had many many jobs. Right now I work for a sign-making company where I have no benifits, no health care, and make about $1000 a month. I have workerd retail, and as a custodian and as a private tutor. I own no porperty (land or a home or a car) and in the US I would be considered working-poor. Again, it's irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

[Rawthentic]

Originally posted by farleft+Oct 27 2005, 01:19 AM--> (farleft @ Oct 27 2005, 01:19 AM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2005, 09:47 PM

[email protected] 26 2005, 04:44 AM
Of course peace would be preferable to violence but its impossible, very unrealistic.

The sooner ALL leftists realise that violence is the only remaining option the sooner we can get on with changing things rather than just wasting our time and resources with marches and protests.
no offense comrade, but we still must keep trying until there is no other option but to grab our guns and demand freedom and liberty. if it comes to that, i will put my banner down and grab my gun. until now, i will keep trying . thanks comrade
So tell me comrade, what exactly has to happen for you to realise that peaceful means will not work? [/b]
Look, as impossible as it may seem, I will keep trying. We are not at the point of fighting yet. That moment will spark. So tell ME comrade, is their violence in Venezuela? NOPE. And socialism is paving the way. thanks comrade

[Rawthentic]

Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2005, 01:44 PM
"violence will never be started by us" precicely because the class war is alwys going on to various degrees. I meant that in the sense that any violence by workers is automaticlly self-defense since we did not instigate and set up this sytem that is harful to us.

As for protests. Reread my post: "Protests alone won't do it". But protests are essentil for mobalizing and organizing and radicalizing our side since workers do not control the airwaves and radical ideas are easy to dismiss without a mass movement backing these ideas up and showing our strength.

Saying protesting is useless and we should just train for gurella warfare (I don't know if that's your argument or not) is hopscotching over worker's consiousness and a sloppy imacient shortcut to actually building class consiousness and convincing workers of revolution. How can the working class ever take power if they are not even thinking about revolution when some group of wannabe ches tries to incite one with gurella warfare?
very well said comrade. i agree with you and admire your intelligence when it comes to this. we cant just start violence when people have not the slightest idea or sentiment for revolution. protests can stir those sentiments. thanks comrade

[Rawthentic]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2005, 04:33 AM
This smells of liberal reformism.

Its very sad to say that violence is the only way communism will come about, I wish there was another way but there isnt!

You have to wake up and realise this, it is very important, until people like you start admiting this then the sooner we can actually work on bringing about communism via direct action against the state.

You do realise that the guy in your signature and picture is Ernesto Guevara, a man must respected for his action of violence against the Batista government in Cuba (amongst other places), he wasnt just marching, shoulting and protesting, he actually did direct action, he killed people for the cause of communism.
The Castro's, Guevara and comrades were only a few men compared to the regime, they didnt go round and count peoples opinions, they just went for it because they knew it was right, they knew that once they started people would automatically be on their side.
Waiting around until things get really shit in this/any country before we start taking action is not the answer, as leftists we should ALL be doing as much as we can against the state now/as soon as possible.
by the way, people during the Cuban revolution did not simply join with the guerillas cause. Batista began to use scorched earth tactics to a point where they had no choice. Also, the vast majority of the population was completely against the batista regime. in the US, the vast majority are not against the government, less would they want to destroy it. Even the people who are, they mostly want just a new president. Look, I am 100 percent for a revolution, but you show too much heart and romanticism to ther point that your head is clouded. When the time comes for guerilla warfare, count me in. For now, stir revoluion in the people!

[farleft]

Originally posted by hastalavictoria+Oct 27 2005, 10:00 PM--> (hastalavictoria @ Oct 27 2005, 10:00 PM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2005, 01:19 AM

Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2005, 09:47 PM

[email protected] 26 2005, 04:44 AM
Of course peace would be preferable to violence but its impossible, very unrealistic.

The sooner ALL leftists realise that violence is the only remaining option the sooner we can get on with changing things rather than just wasting our time and resources with marches and protests.
no offense comrade, but we still must keep trying until there is no other option but to grab our guns and demand freedom and liberty. if it comes to that, i will put my banner down and grab my gun. until now, i will keep trying . thanks comrade
So tell me comrade, what exactly has to happen for you to realise that peaceful means will not work?
Look, as impossible as it may seem, I will keep trying. We are not at the point of fighting yet. That moment will spark. So tell ME comrade, is their violence in Venezuela? NOPE. And socialism is paving the way. thanks comrade [/b]
Chavez and his men tried to overthrow the government twice, and yes people died because of it, so yes, there was violence in Venezuela, once the leftists are in power then there shouldnt be any more violence.

[farleft]

Originally posted by Gravedigger+Oct 27 2005, 09:59 PM--> (Gravedigger @ Oct 27 2005, 09:59 PM)
[email protected] 27 2005, 10:55 AM
Unless of course you are too young to be one of the wage-slaves like the rest of us?
Oh my god I can't come back to this one! Why are you treating me as the enemy for having conclusions about protesting that are not the same as yours? Personal attacks are really a sign of weak politics.

I think it's irrelevant to try and class-bait like this... we should judge comments on how correct they are politically, how well they argue forward for workers, not if they are coming from a professor, a rich kid, or a worker.

Additionally assumptions are just setting yourself up for a fall: My parents are both union members and I have had many many jobs. Right now I work for a sign-making company where I have no benifits, no health care, and make about $1000 a month. I have workerd retail, and as a custodian and as a private tutor. I own no porperty (land or a home or a car) and in the US I would be considered working-poor. Again, it's irrelevant to the discussion at hand. [/b]
Sorry, that comment was mean to be directed at sonofrage in the thread " When You See Military Personnel, Say the following things" page 2.

I was posting in both and seem have got my wires crossed.

Sorry comrade.

[Rawthentic]

Originally posted by farleft+Oct 28 2005, 04:32 AM--> (farleft @ Oct 28 2005, 04:32 AM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2005, 10:00 PM

Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2005, 01:19 AM

Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2005, 09:47 PM

[email protected] 26 2005, 04:44 AM
Of course peace would be preferable to violence but its impossible, very unrealistic.

The sooner ALL leftists realise that violence is the only remaining option the sooner we can get on with changing things rather than just wasting our time and resources with marches and protests.
no offense comrade, but we still must keep trying until there is no other option but to grab our guns and demand freedom and liberty. if it comes to that, i will put my banner down and grab my gun. until now, i will keep trying . thanks comrade
So tell me comrade, what exactly has to happen for you to realise that peaceful means will not work?
Look, as impossible as it may seem, I will keep trying. We are not at the point of fighting yet. That moment will spark. So tell ME comrade, is their violence in Venezuela? NOPE. And socialism is paving the way. thanks comrade
Chavez and his men tried to overthrow the government twice, and yes people died because of it, so yes, there was violence in Venezuela, once the leftists are in power then there shouldnt be any more violence. [/b]
no shit, but is there, or was there a war to gain power for Chavez? NOPE

[farleft]

Im not advocating an out right war, if there was an out right war thousands, possibly millions would die and we (leftists) would lose anyway.