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Freedom Works
22nd October 2005, 23:48
Libertarian free-market theory although in words sounds high and lofty, in practice it is virtually impossible to uphold without it eventually degenerating into plain faced imperialism. The libertarian free-market theory espouses virtually no government interference and expounds the thoery that those who get to the top do so through their own personal prowess of business and market dynamics.
Although not an expert on the subject, allow me to try to refute the libertarian capitalist theory.
Let me split my refutation into parts for the sake of simplicity and clarity.

Throughout the 1800's and upto the present day, two countries have championed the cause of the free-market and libertarian philosophy, at least in theory, if not in practice. When these ideas were most powerful in their 'pure' form, India was still ruled by the Mughal dynasty and the British East India trading company was allowed to conduct business in India. This i will call the 'Indian experiment'

[B]The Indian Experiment:

The British East India trading company was separate from the British government, operating as a purely corporate entity and run by British businessmen solely on their own initiative. After presenting the Mughal emperor, Jehangir with a gift of a painting, the bgritish company was allowed to conduct business there. This was an entirely separate entity from the british government and strictly adhering to the liberatarian philosophy of government non-interference.
At that time the native indian textile industry was already advanced by standards of those days and allowed no inroads for British made textile goods, which were comparatively inexpensive but of lower quality. This remained the situation until the company began exporting textile resources such as cotton and jute to britain, these were exported on a large scale but still british industry was not able to make any progress in Indian markets. On the contrary, higher quality finished textile goods were making their wat into Britain. According to rational market theory, the high volume of indian imported goods should have brought their prices down and eliminated the British competition through sheer economies of scale. However, the weak british textile industry was saved by government intervention that slapped high tariffs on finished Indian textile products but not on imported indian raw materials. Thus came the finishing blow, the British east india company began importing dragoon guards into india and began expropriation of property and labour by force. The land taken over devoted to cultivating raw materials to export to England and the finished English goods back into India.
Thanks to this strategy the British textile industry was saved and the indian textile industry collapsed. This brings into sharp relief the inherent contradictions of the free-market analysis, whose very neck was saved thanks to government intervention, adding to that the newly aquired indian market, whose industry was crippled by force.
Similar comparisons of the validity of libertarian capitalism can be found in British foriegn policy at that time, China which was long importing opium from british india stopped doing so. As a result the main market for indian-grown british opium was lost. According to simple market analysis, the company that loses it's market should collapse. The british government however, again responded and declared war on China. Following China's defeat it was forced to import huge amounts of opium grown in India, the war however largely used indian soldiers employed by the British east india company. Again here too, the inherent contradiction of government non-interference was shown since it was largely the war that saved the opium market in China. Thus the industry survived.
The British East india company continued to exist in India thanks to earlier events that i have mentioned. However the conditions of labour got so inhuman when there were no limits to profit, that Indian soldiers in the employ of the company revolted. The British call this the Great Mutiny of 1857. Since the company existed as a separate entity from the governbment it should follow that the british presence should have been eliminated, However the British government again intervened and sent troops, this time to quell the rebellion. The british government then took direct control of india through which the remenants of the company elite then took official government positions. The british presence was thus continued in India.



[B]The United States experiment:


During the 1800's the united states of america also professed the free-market principle and still does to this day. However allow me to cite a few contradictions in the principle of governmental non-interference that took place in the U.S. During the 1800's the U.S steel industry was tsruggling to survive and growth was very small. It was continuosly hounded by the threat of cheaper imported alternatives. At that time Britain waqs importing cheap ore from India and producing steel relatively cheaply thanks to near inexhaustable indian ore and and extremely cheap indian labour in mines across the subcontinent. The british began exporting steel to the america's to capture new markets. According to the free-market principle, the cheaper alternative should capture the market and drive out the competition. However the american steel industry was saved when high tariffs were imposed on imported british steel, which was cheaper and of relatively higher quality. This allowed the U.S steel industry to survive and grow without threat from foreign competitors. Thus we see that government intervention was required for the survival of the American steel industry.
This was not the exception however, The American government through the Monroe Doctrine proclaimed the whole of the latin american continent to be a special 'sphere of influence' i.e it had sole economic and military influence over the nations and peoples of latin america and the unofficial power to determine what course it should take. This was enforced time and again through coups and economic isolationism of whole countries. For eg, Chile, Cuba, Haiti, Nicaragua, Brazil, Peru etc. where left-leaning governemnts were toppled by force or illegal economic pressure to accept american corporationism and surrender national resources. Any attempts at a command economy were crushed. Thus, it is shown that markets are not captured by market dynamism or any qualifications of the corporation but solely due to military, or the threat of military action. This example is only restricted to latin america but is played out all over the globe.
Let me give you an exampleof how beneficial free-market theory is by citing two parallel examples but which took different paths, Cuba and Haiti. Both are islands of comparable size and resources and both, priort to U.S interference had Sugar as the main commodity. Cuba took to a command economy and survives despite an embargo and isolation for the greater part of forty years, while Haiti opened up it's markets to american influence. The result, Haitian land was exorbitantly used for sugar cultivation by ameriacan companies, to such a large scale that the fertlity of the land was also diminished thanks to generous use of pesticides and fertilizers to enhance prductivity to unreal levels, and depriving land that could be used for food cultivation. Now, cuba is a largely self-sufficient economy, with an average age of 77, while Haiti is on the verge of collapse with 60% of the population unhealthy.
Apart from this, the economy of the U.S is lauded as a success of free-market Capitalism, resting mainly on the high-tech sector. However it's success can be largely attributed to frequent government subsidies and governemnt-funded research. For example, the laser was researched by the military under the tax-payers' dollar. Now, manufacturing corporations make full use of it in largely every sphere of manufacture. Similarily, the personal computer was researched by the military in conjunction with the space program. In those days they took the form of super-computers, ten-fifteen foot high cabinets.all under again, the tax payers' dollar, then was repackaged by microsoft, dell, apple, etc. now computers play an indespensable role in the high tech industry and are used in virtually every field. This again conflicts with the free-market principle of government non-interference, since it was the government that laid the foundations for the american high tech industry, on which the entire American economy rests!
Another example of the U.S governments' compliance with industrialists takes form in frequent tax-cuts, that relieves the capitalist from economic pressure and frees even more capital for growth and investment.
These are examples of the refutation of free-market principles in the two countries that most vociferously advocate the free-market. These very same countries, shown through these examples, engaged in and their economies still survive thanks to economic protectionism and not free-market principle, in fact the very opposite.


The USSR Experiment

The USSR during the cold war through socialism and collectivization registered the fastest growth of any country economically. It came to rival the United states and some even predicted that the cold war would end with the USSR and the socialist bloc victorious. The fall of the Soviet Union, was attributed to the failure of socialism and the triumph of free-market and free-enterprise. In comes Mikhail Gorbachev, with the much touted policy of Glastnost and prestroika, with the intention of opening up the soviet economy to investment and neglecting economic protectionism. The result was a catastrophic collapse of the Soviet economy and the Soviet Union. A collapse so sudden that it shocked world commentators and the nations profoundly. This resulted with widespread disillusionment and the crumbling of the socialist bloc collectively. This is enough to show that Marx spoke true when he said that the economy can only be developed forward, ie. from capitalist to socialist, but backwards will lead to catastrophe. This was manifestly shown in the collapse of the Soviet Union, which attempted to regress from a socialist to a capitalist one. If anything, it strengthens the weight of Marxism and displays the results of free-market capitalism. Now Russia is a gangster-led kleptocracy with oil barons at the helm.



The Chinese Experiment


The proponents of free-market capitalism would show that capitalism leads to stunning growth and a command economy is bound to fail. This however is refuted by the example of China. The economies of the U.S and the western hemisphere have largely stagnated, where the economy is largely in private hands. However in China, where only 10% of the countries' industry and agricultural infrastructure is in private hands, the system followed is a command economy. A centrally-planned economy following the pattern of five-year plans. With the government directing all aspects of the chinese economy. At this moment China is registering the fastest rate of growth of any economy is history. It's rapidly growing power is now threatening the vanguards of capitalism and has already overtaken most of the capitalist economies by far. This very fact should refute the free-market theory which states that growth is not possible under government hands. It can conclusively be shown that a command economy is far nmore efficient than a private, free-market one.


All historical facts aside, even the theorists of free-market libertarian capitalism warned against the cruelty of greed and the emergence of greedy industrialists. Most notably among these was Adam Smith and Madison, the founding fathers of the free-market philosophy. However even in this warning the shortcomings of the free-market philosophy are evident, They oppose monopolies but advocate government non-interference, they put no limits on the accumulation of capital, but oppose the emergence of a capitalist ruling class. They assume the progress of capitalism will trickle down to the copnsumer, but it is only enhancing suppression and proletarianization, a recent example is the privatization under progress of the NHS is Britain. They advocate a philosophy that is proven unworkable in history, and is full of inherent contradictions.


That was my attempt to refute the theory of libertarian capitalism. i know it is long but please bear with me and give your views/criticisms.
Thanks.

First off, SOURCES?

viva le revolution
23rd October 2005, 07:38
The history of the british east india company is well documented, alongwith the opium wars of Britain against China. This was taking into account the theories of Adam smith and Madison who advocated governmental non-interference. The uprising of 1857 in India was also well-documented alongwith it's immediate and long-term reasons.
America's actions i'm sure is common knowledge to all. American trade protectionism has been in place ever since it was created. It's demand of subservient natipns to open up their markets, the result of this is common knowledge.
The rapid growth of the Soviet union and China cannot be doubted by anyone. This is straight refutation of the free market principle. The [policies of glastnost and prestroika is well known alongwith the sudden fall of the Soviet union.
All i have presented in my essay are historical facts availible evrywhere, if searched for. I have not provided any other-worldly theories or examples, this is all documented history just pieced together to form an arguement. (ignorance is no arguement).
Please form your counter-arguement and try to refute my assertions.

Freedom Works
23rd October 2005, 12:47
Well it's pretty easy to refute that refutation. No where in the article do you talk about a real free market. It's interesting, most socialists seem to think "free market" means large corporations in bed with government and also think thats what libertarians mean. It just shows they don't pay any attention to libertarianism. They just equate libertarianism with ultra right wing Reagan era-esque conservatism.

ComradeOm
23rd October 2005, 13:20
Originally posted by Freedom [email protected] 23 2005, 12:31 PM
Well it's pretty easy to refute that refutation. No where in the article do you talk about a real free market. It's interesting, most socialists seem to think "free market" means large corporations in bed with government and also think thats what libertarians mean. It just shows they don't pay any attention to libertarianism. They just equate libertarianism with ultra right wing Reagan era-esque conservatism.
So you think that socialism is impossible to achieve but you hold out hope that we'll actually see a perfectly free market? I'm not sure which is the more idealistic ;)

Freedom Works
23rd October 2005, 13:27
No, I hold that Socialism is not an alternative to Capitalism, any more than living with chains is an alternative to living without chains.

viva le revolution
23rd October 2005, 17:11
I think you completely missed the point of my reference to the east india company, if you even read the article that is, The est india company company was operating on a non-governmental interference policy, but inevitably needed the governemnt to save it's skin on numerous occasiuons, The americans needed government interference to save their steel industry otherwise it would collapse, even though they claim to be following the free-market principle.
That's exactly my point, there has NEVER been a genuinely free market because the free-market theory is unworkable at best and absurd at worst.

Publius
23rd October 2005, 19:41
Originally posted by Freedom [email protected] 22 2005, 11:32 PM






The British East India trading company was separate from the British government

Really now?

Read: The British East India Company, sometimes referred to as "John Company", was a joint-stock company of investors, which was granted a Royal Charter by Elizabeth I on December 31, 1600, with the intent to favour trade privileges in India. The Royal Charter effectively gave the newly created Honourable East India Company a monopoly on all trade in the East Indies.



So they, operating as a purely corporate entity and run by British businessmen solely on their own initiative. After presenting the Mughal emperor, Jehangir with a gift of a painting, the bgritish company was allowed to conduct business there. This was an entirely separate entity from the british government and strictly adhering to the liberatarian philosophy of government non-interference.

Except for the fact that they were granted monopoly privilage by the British government and chartered by the British government.

As Adam Smith wrote, "The difference between the genius of the British constitution which protects and governs North America, and that of the mercantile company which oppresses and domineers in the East Indies, cannot perhaps be better illustrated than by the different state of those countries."


Wikipedia makes this too easy.



At that time the native indian textile industry was already advanced by standards of those days and allowed no inroads for British made textile goods, which were comparatively inexpensive but of lower quality. This remained the situation until the company began exporting textile resources such as cotton and jute to britain, these were exported on a large scale but still british industry was not able to make any progress in Indian markets. On the contrary, higher quality finished textile goods were making their wat into Britain. According to rational market theory, the high volume of indian imported goods should have brought their prices down and eliminated the British competition through sheer economies of scale. However, the weak british textile industry was saved by government intervention that slapped high tariffs on finished Indian textile products but not on imported indian raw materials. Thus came the finishing blow, the British east india company began importing dragoon guards into india and began expropriation of property and labour by force. The land taken over devoted to cultivating raw materials to export to England and the finished English goods back into India.

So your idea of a 'free market' is a government issued monopoly, high tarrifs, and the use of government soldiers?



Thanks to this strategy the British textile industry was saved and the indian textile industry collapsed. This brings into sharp relief the inherent contradictions of the free-market analysis, whose very neck was saved thanks to government intervention, adding to that the newly aquired indian market, whose industry was crippled by force.

No 'necks should be saved' in capitalism. Failure is a natual part of capitalism as death is a natural part of life.



Similar comparisons of the validity of libertarian capitalism can be found in British foriegn policy at that time, China which was long importing opium from british india stopped doing so. As a result the main market for indian-grown british opium was lost. According to simple market analysis, the company that loses it's market should collapse. The british government however, again responded and declared war on China. Following China's defeat it was forced to import huge amounts of opium grown in India, the war however largely used indian soldiers employed by the British east india company. Again here too, the inherent contradiction of government non-interference was shown since it was largely the war that saved the opium market in China. Thus the industry survived.

Yes, the company should have collapsed. You won't find a single supporter of capitalism who supports this.

The company SHOULD have collapsed; every single market supporter would agree.

You aren't agruing against the market, you're arguing against mercantilism.

Read this, you need it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_East_India_Company



The British East india company continued to exist in India thanks to earlier events that i have mentioned. However the conditions of labour got so inhuman when there were no limits to profit, that Indian soldiers in the employ of the company revolted. The British call this the Great Mutiny of 1857. Since the company existed as a separate entity from the governbment it should follow that the british presence should have been eliminated, However the British government again intervened and sent troops, this time to quell the rebellion. The british government then took direct control of india through which the remenants of the company elite then took official government positions. The british presence was thus continued in India.

Mercantilism.

Any and every free-market supporter would allow the company to shrivel up and die.


During the 1800's the united states of america also professed the free-market principle and still does to this day. However allow me to cite a few contradictions in the principle of governmental non-interference that took place in the U.S. During the 1800's the U.S steel industry was tsruggling to survive and growth was very small. It was continuosly hounded by the threat of cheaper imported alternatives. At that time Britain waqs importing cheap ore from India and producing steel relatively cheaply thanks to near inexhaustable indian ore and and extremely cheap indian labour in mines across the subcontinent. The british began exporting steel to the america's to capture new markets. According to the free-market principle, the cheaper alternative should capture the market and drive out the competition. However the american steel industry was saved when high tariffs were imposed on imported british steel, which was cheaper and of relatively higher quality. This allowed the U.S steel industry to survive and grow without threat from foreign competitors. Thus we see that government intervention was required for the survival of the American steel industry.

So?

It was wrong. The steel industry shouldn't have been aided.

What's your point?

That government intervention is bad and wrong?

That it's necessary? It isn't necessary. We could have gotten that British steel.


This was not the exception however, The American government through the Monroe Doctrine proclaimed the whole of the latin american continent to be a special 'sphere of influence' i.e it had sole economic and military influence over the nations and peoples of latin america and the unofficial power to determine what course it should take. This was enforced time and again through coups and economic isolationism of whole countries. For eg, Chile, Cuba, Haiti, Nicaragua, Brazil, Peru etc. where left-leaning governemnts were toppled by force or illegal economic pressure to accept american corporationism and surrender national resources. Any attempts at a command economy were crushed. Thus, it is shown that markets are not captured by market dynamism or any qualifications of the corporation but solely due to military, or the threat of military action. This example is only restricted to latin america but is played out all over the globe.

Yet again, this has nothing to do with capitalism.



Let me give you an exampleof how beneficial free-market theory is by citing two parallel examples but which took different paths, Cuba and Haiti. Both are islands of comparable size and resources and both, priort to U.S interference had Sugar as the main commodity. Cuba took to a command economy and survives despite an embargo and isolation for the greater part of forty years, while Haiti opened up it's markets to american influence. The result, Haitian land was exorbitantly used for sugar cultivation by ameriacan companies, to such a large scale that the fertlity of the land was also diminished thanks to generous use of pesticides and fertilizers to enhance prductivity to unreal levels, and depriving land that could be used for food cultivation. Now, cuba is a largely self-sufficient economy, with an average age of 77, while Haiti is on the verge of collapse with 60% of the population unhealthy.

This isn't the whole story and you know it.

Cuba has always been richer than Haiti; that's the real factor.


Apart from this, the economy of the U.S is lauded as a success of free-market Capitalism, resting mainly on the high-tech sector. However it's success can be largely attributed to frequent government subsidies and governemnt-funded research. For example, the laser was researched by the military under the tax-payers' dollar. Now, manufacturing corporations make full use of it in largely every sphere of manufacture. Similarily, the personal computer was researched by the military in conjunction with the space program. In those days they took the form of super-computers, ten-fifteen foot high cabinets.all under again, the tax payers' dollar, then was repackaged by microsoft, dell, apple, etc. now computers play an indespensable role in the high tech industry and are used in virtually every field. This again conflicts with the free-market principle of government non-interference, since it was the government that laid the foundations for the american high tech industry, on which the entire American economy rests!
Another example of the U.S governments' compliance with industrialists takes form in frequent tax-cuts, that relieves the capitalist from economic pressure and frees even more capital for growth and investment.
These are examples of the refutation of free-market principles in the two countries that most vociferously advocate the free-market. These very same countries, shown through these examples, engaged in and their economies still survive thanks to economic protectionism and not free-market principle, in fact the very opposite.

Who cares?

None of this has anything to do with the free-market.

Do you even understand what you're trying to argue against?


The USSR during the cold war through socialism and collectivization registered the fastest growth of any country economically. It came to rival the United states and some even predicted that the cold war would end with the USSR and the socialist bloc victorious. The fall of the Soviet Union, was attributed to the failure of socialism and the triumph of free-market and free-enterprise. In comes Mikhail Gorbachev, with the much touted policy of Glastnost and prestroika, with the intention of opening up the soviet economy to investment and neglecting economic protectionism. The result was a catastrophic collapse of the Soviet economy and the Soviet Union. A collapse so sudden that it shocked world commentators and the nations profoundly. This resulted with widespread disillusionment and the crumbling of the socialist bloc collectively. This is enough to show that Marx spoke true when he said that the economy can only be developed forward, ie. from capitalist to socialist, but backwards will lead to catastrophe. This was manifestly shown in the collapse of the Soviet Union, which attempted to regress from a socialist to a capitalist one. If anything, it strengthens the weight of Marxism and displays the results of free-market capitalism. Now Russia is a gangster-led kleptocracy with oil barons at the helm.

I think I'll stick to the Economist for my geo-politics.


The proponents of free-market capitalism would show that capitalism leads to stunning growth and a command economy is bound to fail. This however is refuted by the example of China. The economies of the U.S and the western hemisphere have largely stagnated, where the economy is largely in private hands. However in China, where only 10% of the countries' industry and agricultural infrastructure is in private hands, the system followed is a command economy. A centrally-planned economy following the pattern of five-year plans. With the government directing all aspects of the chinese economy. At this moment China is registering the fastest rate of growth of any economy is history. It's rapidly growing power is now threatening the vanguards of capitalism and has already overtaken most of the capitalist economies by far. This very fact should refute the free-market theory which states that growth is not possible under government hands. It can conclusively be shown that a command economy is far nmore efficient than a private, free-market one.

Is China MORE capitalistic than is used to be? Is it growing faster than it used to? Would it grow faster if it were more capitalistic?


All historical facts aside, even the theorists of free-market libertarian capitalism warned against the cruelty of greed and the emergence of greedy industrialists. Most notably among these was Adam Smith and Madison, the founding fathers of the free-market philosophy.

I could have sworn 'Ricardo' was not spelled A-d-a-m-S-m-i-t-h-a-n-d-M-a-d-i-s-o-n.


However even in this warning the shortcomings of the free-market philosophy are evident, They oppose monopolies but advocate government non-interference, they put no limits on the accumulation of capital, but oppose the emergence of a capitalist ruling class. They assume the progress of capitalism will trickle down to the copnsumer, but it is only enhancing suppression and proletarianization, a recent example is the privatization under progress of the NHS is Britain. They advocate a philosophy that is proven unworkable in history, and is full of inherent contradictions.

There is no current privitization of the NHS in Britain. Check your facts.





That was my attempt to refute the theory of libertarian capitalism. i know it is long but please bear with me and give your views/criticisms.
Thanks.

It refutes nothing.

Freedom Works
23rd October 2005, 19:52
The est india company company was operating on a non-governmental interference policy, but inevitably needed the governemnt to save it's skin on numerous occasiuons, The americans needed government interference to save their steel industry otherwise it would collapse,

That's your personal opinion, and saying that it would be 'bad' if it did collapse just shows you don't understand simple economics.


That's exactly my point, there has NEVER been a genuinely free market

You seem to be confusing 'communism' and 'free market'.

viva le revolution
23rd October 2005, 20:44
Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2005, 07:25 PM
[QUOTE=Freedom Works,Oct 22 2005, 11:32 PM]


Really now?

Read: The British East India Company, sometimes referred to as "John Company", was a joint-stock company of investors, which was granted a Royal Charter by Elizabeth I on December 31, 1600, with the intent to favour trade privileges in India. The Royal Charter effectively gave the newly created Honourable East India Company a monopoly on all trade in the East Indies.



Except for the fact that they were granted monopoly privilage by the British government and chartered by the British government.

As Adam Smith wrote, "The difference between the genius of the British constitution which protects and governs North America, and that of the mercantile company which oppresses and domineers in the East Indies, cannot perhaps be better illustrated than by the different state of those countries."


Wikipedia makes this too easy.


So your idea of a 'free market' is a government issued monopoly, high tarrifs, and the use of government soldiers?



No 'necks should be saved' in capitalism. Failure is a natual part of capitalism as death is a natural part of life.



Yes, the company should have collapsed. You won't find a single supporter of capitalism who supports this.

The company SHOULD have collapsed; every single market supporter would agree.

You aren't agruing against the market, you're arguing against mercantilism.

Read this, you need it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_East_India_Company


Mercantilism.

Any and every free-market supporter would allow the company to shrivel up and die.



So?

It was wrong. The steel industry shouldn't have been aided.

What's your point?

That government intervention is bad and wrong?

That it's necessary? It isn't necessary. We could have gotten that British steel.



Yet again, this has nothing to do with capitalism.



This isn't the whole story and you know it.

Cuba has always been richer than Haiti; that's the real factor.



Who cares?

None of this has anything to do with the free-market.

Do you even understand what you're trying to argue against?



I think I'll stick to the Economist for my geo-politics.


Is China MORE capitalistic than is used to be? Is it growing faster than it used to? Would it grow faster if it were more capitalistic?



I could have sworn 'Ricardo' was not spelled A-d-a-m-S-m-i-t-h-a-n-d-M-a-d-i-s-o-n.



There is no current privitization of the NHS in Britain. Check your facts.



It refutes nothing.
1. The charter given by queen elizabeth did give the east india company a monopoly, but the governemnt did not interfere in it's running, which led to gross injustice. Not only that but helped the development of the british economy immensely by supplying cheap labour and resources. Tell me, how does free-market capitalism curtail the emergence of such monopolies if no limits are placed on their growth and the accumulation of wealth?

2. Can you give me an example of a free-market society in history? One guided by the lofty principles you claim to uphold?

3. Failure is a natural part of capitalism, but you claim the united states and britain are success stories of capitalism, states which have engaged in high levels of economic protectionism. You say that the american steel industry should have collapsed. So tell me how does this system benefit a countries economy? how does it benefit the industry if the collapse of a country's basic industries are allowed to collapse? Is that what the supporters of the free-market theory advocate?

4. Mercantilism, upon which your models of free-market capitalism are based.

5. Why? It is upon these principles upon which your success stories of free-market capitalism are based.

6. Yes cuba has always been richer, that's why it was called the 'whorehouse of the carribbean' right?

7. Apparently you should care, because every time you advocate the success of american capitalism and western european capitalism, know on what basis their economies prospered actually. It goes to show that not even the most stringent advocates of free-market capitalism followed it. why? because the theory is unworkable and damaging for the country, as shown in your statement that the american steel industry should have collapsed.

8. Please stick to the economist, i'm sure they are really reliable and tell the whole story.

9. China is a command economy, thus does not fit in to your theory for free-market capitalism, that would account for the fact that it is the fastest growing economy in history. Doesn't shine too good a light on the free-market principle of government non-interference.

10. Neither does your post confirm anything.

viva le revolution
23rd October 2005, 20:46
Originally posted by Freedom [email protected] 23 2005, 07:36 PM


That's your personal opinion, and saying that it would be 'bad' if it did collapse just shows you don't understand simple economics.



You seem to be confusing 'communism' and 'free market'.
1. Yes in my opinion the collapse of a country's basic industry is bad. How is it good?

2. Name one genuinely free-market system in history.

Amusing Scrotum
23rd October 2005, 20:47
There is no current privitization of the NHS in Britain. Check your facts.


:unsure:

Then what is PFI or sub contracted cleaners from private companies?

If you bring the private sector into the public sector, you are privatising parts of the public sector.

Publius
23rd October 2005, 21:39
Originally posted by viva le [email protected] 23 2005, 08:28 PM




1. The charter given by queen elizabeth did give the east india company a monopoly, but the governemnt did not interfere in it's running, which led to gross injustice. Not only that but helped the development of the british economy immensely by supplying cheap labour and resources. Tell me, how does free-market capitalism curtail the emergence of such monopolies if no limits are placed on their growth and the accumulation of wealth?

It doesn't matter; government coercion is government coercion.

I don't support it.

And how does the free-market curtail the emergance? But not allowing it in the first place.

Market monopolies are rare things indeed.

Competition invariably destroys them.




2. Can you give me an example of a free-market society in history? One guided by the lofty principles you claim to uphold?

No.




3. Failure is a natural part of capitalism, but you claim the united states and britain are success stories of capitalism, states which have engaged in high levels of economic protectionism. You say that the american steel industry should have collapsed. So tell me how does this system benefit a countries economy? how does it benefit the industry if the collapse of a country's basic industries are allowed to collapse? Is that what the supporters of the free-market theory advocate?

No.

Why does America need a steel industry if Britain has one? Why not simply TRADE for goods?

A single country does not need to produce goods, only trade for them.




4. Mercantilism, upon which your models of free-market capitalism are based.

Except of course that they aren't.

Reality's a *****, eh?



5. Why? It is upon these principles upon which your success stories of free-market capitalism are based.

What principles? Due to your insipid response style I have no idea to what you're reffering.



6. Yes cuba has always been richer, that's why it was called the 'whorehouse of the carribbean' right?

Are you disputing the fact that Cuba has historically been richer than Haiti?



7. Apparently you should care, because every time you advocate the success of american capitalism and western european capitalism, know on what basis their economies prospered actually. It goes to show that not even the most stringent advocates of free-market capitalism followed it. why? because the theory is unworkable and damaging for the country, as shown in your statement that the american steel industry should have collapsed.

Why should the 'American steel industry' exist when there was a British one that was better?

And you're commiting the fallacy of inductive reasoning. Often.




8. Please stick to the economist, i'm sure they are really reliable and tell the whole story.

Reliable? Moreso than any other newsource in the world, by my reckoning.

Tell the whole story? It's an opinion magazine, so not really.




9. China is a command economy, thus does not fit in to your theory for free-market capitalism, that would account for the fact that it is the fastest growing economy in history. Doesn't shine too good a light on the free-market principle of government non-interference.

Way to side-step the difficult questions.

I theorize that if China were free-market it would be growing 3 times as fast.

What say you to that?

viva le revolution
23rd October 2005, 22:28
Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2005, 09:23 PM


It doesn't matter; government coercion is government coercion.

I don't support it.

And how does the free-market curtail the emergance? But not allowing it in the first place.

Market monopolies are rare things indeed.

Competition invariably destroys them.



No.



No.

Why does America need a steel industry if Britain has one? Why not simply TRADE for goods?

A single country does not need to produce goods, only trade for them.



Except of course that they aren't.

Reality's a *****, eh?



What principles? Due to your insipid response style I have no idea to what you're reffering.



Are you disputing the fact that Cuba has historically been richer than Haiti?



Why should the 'American steel industry' exist when there was a British one that was better?

And you're commiting the fallacy of inductive reasoning. Often.



Reliable? Moreso than any other newsource in the world, by my reckoning.

Tell the whole story? It's an opinion magazine, so not really.



Way to side-step the difficult questions.

I theorize that if China were free-market it would be growing 3 times as fast.

What say you to that?
1.How would it curtail the growth of monopolies, kindly explain. If there are laws against monopolies, isn't that government interference going against the spirit of the free-market philosophy? Your case rests on the assumption that the capitalists will have an attack of conscience to dissuade them from capturing maximum market share. How will it stop the growth of monopolies. How can smaller companies possibly dislodge large conglomerates without being eliminated themselves. Who will enforce the abolishment of monopolies? Certainly not the free-market itself. We have seen history to prove that. How would you bring about free-market utopia, by competition, where have you seen a small emerging company eliminate a large multinational conglomerate. It would result in one company capturing another's market share. Just a changing of hands, not at all equitable distribution of the market. Furthurmore, how on earth will you regulate growth of capital without any restrictions on the accumulation of wealth?

2. Not even one? Not even the countries that are supposed to uphold it? Doesn't look very good on your point.

3. So basically you are against a country being self-sufficient instead relying wholly on other markets, tell me what if the other country has higher bargaining power? would that mean that the weaker one is forced to adapt to it's conditions and rules. simple question: why trade for goods if they can be produced locally, wouldn't that mean cheaper goods for the home market?

4. How aren't they? Do you deny the british stealing resources from colonial lands to advance their own industry, do you deny the american policy of imposition of free-markets by force? Do you deny american wars for oil and resources? Do you deny the exploitation of the third world?

5. Upon the principles of mercantilism. How your industrial society in britain and america were fuelled in the first place.

6. Are you trying to paint Cuba as a booming economy before Castro?

7. So that the american economy can be self-sufficient? so that eventually local made steel would be cheaper for the consumer? Again why import goods when they can be produced locally?

8. Whether the economist is reliable or not is your call.

9. Well China is a basic refutation of free-market theory that a command economy is inefficient. The very fact that it is the fastest growing economy in history is refutation of that assertion. As far your assertion goes it is just that, an assertion, a matter of opinion. Can you deny that China is growing rapidly, can you deny that when the economies of the west have largely stagnated, china's command economy is booming? This very fact is refutation of your free-market principles.

Freedom Works
23rd October 2005, 23:01
Can you deny that China is growing rapidly, can you deny that when the economies of the west have largely stagnated, china's command economy is booming?

For your refutation to be valid, the economies of the west would have to be based upon a free market.

viva le revolution
24th October 2005, 07:38
Originally posted by Freedom [email protected] 23 2005, 10:45 PM

Can you deny that China is growing rapidly, can you deny that when the economies of the west have largely stagnated, china's command economy is booming?

For your refutation to be valid, the economies of the west would have to be based upon a free market.
This isn't a refytation of western economies, but of the free-market principle that a command economy cannot work and that an economy is better in private hands.

Freedom Works
24th October 2005, 08:03
This isn't a refytation of western economies, but of the free-market principle that a command economy cannot work and that an economy is better in private hands.
It's not that command economies 'cannot work', it is that socialist systems without price cannot work. Command economies can 'work', but free markets 'work' better.

But still, for your refutation to be valid, the economies you are comparing them to (by saying the economies have allegedly stagnated) is not based upon the free market.

What say you to Hong Kong, the most economically free country in the world?

viva le revolution
24th October 2005, 09:01
Originally posted by Freedom [email protected] 24 2005, 07:47 AM


What say you to Hong Kong, the most economically free country in the world?
Like you said, there is no genuinely free market in the world, nor has there ever been. So on what principle do you uphold Hong Kong? On what basis do you call it free market, if you have already admitted there has been no genuinely free market system in history. You accuse me of comparison with no genuine free market system, i accuse you giving examples with no genuinely free market system.