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Free Palestine
22nd October 2005, 22:39
"Yet while his people starved, Mao feasted on specialty foods, responding to stories of peasant suffering with statements like: "Having only tree leaves to eat? So be it." and " 'Oh, peasants' lives are so hard' - the end of the world! I have never thought so.""

More: http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/1018/p13s02-bogn.html

Xvall
22nd October 2005, 23:23
Uncle Ho was way better. He lived off of just rice for over a year.

celticfire
22nd October 2005, 23:42
Originally posted by Free [email protected] 22 2005, 10:23 PM
"Yet while his people starved, Mao feasted on specialty foods, responding to stories of peasant suffering with statements like: "Having only tree leaves to eat? So be it." and " 'Oh, peasants' lives are so hard' - the end of the world! I have never thought so.""

More: http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/1018/p13s02-bogn.html
Come on! Do you believe everything you read in the Christian Science Monitor?!
They mention the book "Mao: The Unknown Story" - wich isn't much more then good ol' pure capitalist propaganda. Yes, not everyone had a pleasurable experience during the socialist era in China (1949-1976) but it was a tremendous gain from what they had - and have now! I encourage you think a bit more about Mao then just reading osme reactionary garbage.

RedJacobin
23rd October 2005, 00:15
even serious bourgeois scholars are tearing apart Jung Chang's book:


Throwing the book at Mao

China scholars across the world are questioning the veracity of historical accounts in a controversial biography of Mao Zedong, writes Hamish McDonald.

A TINY widow aged 85, living in two rooms, an electric rice cooker her only modern appliance, may be a crucial witness to a key dispute involving wealthy Chinese author Jung Chang, who lives in great comfort in London's plush Notting Hill from the proceeds of her worldwide bestselling book Wild Swans.

The dispute is one of many being picked by some of the world's most eminent scholars of modern Chinese history, who say Chang's latest blockbuster book, Mao - The Unknown Story, co-authored with her British historian husband Jon Halliday, is a gross distortion of the records.

Few are disputing that their subject, the late Chinese communist party chairman Mao Zedong, was a monster as a human being and a leader who put first, his party comrades, and later, the whole country, through hell. Or that this is an extraordinarily powerful book, one that seems destined to be highly influential.

But many agree with Thomas Bernstein, of Columbia University in New York, that "the book is a major disaster for the contemporary China field"."

Because of its stupendous research apparatus, its claims will be accepted widely," he said this week. "Yet their scholarship is put at the service of thoroughly destroying Mao's reputation.

The result is an equally stupendous number of quotations out of context, distortion of facts and omission of much of what makes Mao a complex, contradictory, and multi-sided leader."

As well as factual errors and dubious use of sources - which even favourable reviewers such as Princeton's Perry Link (an editor of the Tiananmen Papers) have felt compelled to criticise, many scholars point out that much of what Chang and Halliday present as a previously "unknown story" has in fact been exposed long ago by academic researchers and in popular works such as the memoirs of Mao's personal doctor, Li Zhisui, or John Byron's book on Mao's secret police chief, Kang Sheng. But no credit is given to these earlier writers.

These disclosures include Mao's endless supply of young female bed partners and his appalling personal hygiene, his callousness towards wives and children, the vital support of Stalin in his rise as party leader, his party's trade in opium, its terror-tactics applied to its own members, its shirking of the war against the Japanese, Mao's ruthless diversion of resources to building the atom bomb, and the disastrous campaigns of the 1959-61 Great Leap Forward and the 1966-76 Cultural Revolution."

http://www.theage.com.au/news/books/throwi...562936768.html# (http://www.theage.com.au/news/books/throwing-the-book-at-mao/2005/10/06/1128562936768.html#)


here's something different:
Views from an admirer of Mao (http://www.chinastudygroup.org/article/83/)

Xvall
23rd October 2005, 01:07
I just realized the source. Lmao.

Free Palestine
23rd October 2005, 03:41
Are you kidding me? The Christian Science Monitor is the best news the US can offer. It's the best newspaper of all the main stream media.

Chuck
23rd October 2005, 04:03
I'm going to have to say that Public Broadcasting is better news than The Christian Science Monitor.

Ownthink
23rd October 2005, 04:06
Originally posted by Free [email protected] 22 2005, 11:25 PM
Are you kidding me? The Christian Science Monitor is the best news the US can offer. It's the best newspaper of all the main stream media.
You've got to be shitting me.

violencia.Proletariat
23rd October 2005, 04:10
Originally posted by Ownthink+Oct 22 2005, 11:50 PM--> (Ownthink @ Oct 22 2005, 11:50 PM)
Free [email protected] 22 2005, 11:25 PM
Are you kidding me? The Christian Science Monitor is the best news the US can offer. It's the best newspaper of all the main stream media.
You've got to be shitting me. [/b]
hopefully he is being sarcastic

RedJacobin
23rd October 2005, 04:42
I was under the impression that csmonitor is a somewhat "liberal" paper. The character of the paper isn't the issue here though. The book reviewer for csmonitor is just parroting Jung Chang's lies in her book on Mao.

Chuck
23rd October 2005, 04:53
Liberal?

What's your reference point? The Bible?

Wanted Man
23rd October 2005, 06:24
Who cares about "liberal"? No matter if they're "liberal" or "conservative", bourgeois is bourgeois. Anyway, I agree, Mao: The Unknown Story is a disaster, because it not only makes everyone who has read it a little dumber, but it also makes them believe they just got smarter.

Urban Guerrilla
23rd October 2005, 06:28
A bunch of broken up bullshit propaganda :che:

Anarchist Freedom
25th October 2005, 03:41
I still dont really like mao.

Free Palestine
25th October 2005, 08:59
What's your reference point?

What the American main stream media has to offer.

celticfire
26th October 2005, 12:02
Books like this serve a purpose, namely to discredit political leaders - it's the same with Hugo Chavez, a few weeks ago the founder of Global Exchange (http://www.globalexchange.org/) was on Fox News (I think it was Medea Benjamin), and the Fox News commentator kept calling Hugo Chavez a "leftist dictator" -- is that true?

No, but now because he said that millions believe it to be true! Despite the constant reminders from the Global Exchange founder that Hugo Chavez was a "democratically elected leader." That's the logic behind this book.

Mao spent a lot of times living in caves with peasents during the revolution, I suggest you read Red Star Over China by Edgar Snow. Did people starve in socialist China? Yes, but many don't realize starvation was common in China, and much worse under the Kuomintang, and there were many attempts to solve China's food problem (in 1949 there were some 400 million Chinese with little industry and a patched agculture) like the Great Leap Forward which attempted to industrialize China.

But there were many setbacks 1) A massive drought and other natural dissasters, 2) the Soviet Union pulled out call support and took blueprints with them (they went revisionist) leaving some 145 factories unfinished, 3) Overzealous Cadre's were misinforming others about the real production levels.

This isn't to say the Great Leap Forward was a dissaster like the bourgeois claim, but it did fall short of its goals. But by 1970 China had solved its food problems.

The GLP is usually the "facts" behind the claim that Mao killed "millions"!

But I've never heard of the millions that died under the Kuomintang which of course - there were!

I suggest you also read On the Role of Mao (http://www.monthlyreview.org/0904hinton.htm) by William Hinton who also wrote Fanshen.

Xvall
26th October 2005, 19:51
It's the best newspaper of all the main stream media.

That's not saying much. But I suppose you're right. It's ten times as credible as Fox - but last time I checked, 10 x 0 is still 0.

bolshevik butcher
26th October 2005, 20:15
Mutch as i hate mao, id like to have sources from the authors for those quotes about peasants. I think that mao was more confuzed and mad than actually evil and wasn't entirley aware of a lot that went on.

Nothing Human Is Alien
26th October 2005, 20:26
Uncle Ho was way better.

Agreed.

But anyway, this source, and that book are hardly credible in any sense of the word. How many times are people going to post trash like this here?

DisIllusion
27th October 2005, 03:35
Mao was a bit on the borderline of Facism, but I still find it hard to imagine him acting like that, especially when Maoism places the peasant above all others.

celticfire
27th October 2005, 04:28
Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2005, 03:19 AM
Mao was a bit on the borderline of Facism, but I still find it hard to imagine him acting like that, especially when Maoism places the peasant above all others.
:blink: DisIllusion: I am a Maoist and I take the accusation that Mao was a "borderline fascist" very seriously.

It's funny you have Che quotes on your signature and Avatar.

Do you know what Che thought about Mao - or worse - Stalin?

Perhaps you should start with Jon Lee Anderson's "Che Guevara: A Revolutionary Life" and read about Che (no offense) and not just react (dogmatically I might add) to Mao.

"Once more I could convince myself how terrible the capitalist octopuses are. I swore on a picture of our old and bewailed comrade Stalin, I swore not to rest before these capitalist octopuses are destroyed."

"In the so called mistakes of Stalin lies the difference between a revolutionary attitude and a revisionist attitude. You have to look at Stalin in the historical context in which he moves, you don’t have to look at him as some kind of brute, but in that particular historical context … I have come to communism because of daddy Stalin and nobody must come and tell me that I mustn’t read Stalin. I read him when it was very bad to read him. That was another time. And because I’m not very bright, and a hard-headed person, I keep on reading him. Especially in this new period, now that it is worse to read him. Then, as well as now, I still find a Seri of things that are very good."

Now I like Che, I think he was a good Communist with some bad lines. I don't uphold Mao because he was "cool" - but because he represents the most advanced political weapon we communists have: Marxism-Leninism-Maoism.

Che was cool, but Che was a player at time when socialist countries were going revisionist, and though Che did recognize this problem he failed to understand where it came from and how to fight it.

But back to the main point - how was Mao in ANYWAY like a fascist?!

-He initiated the Cultural Revolution by hanging up a banner that said "Bombard the headquarters!" He put a call to the workers of China to rebel against leaders taking the capitalist road.

This led to exciting and profoundly new democratic experiences in China and was a mass mobolization of millions of youths and workers.

How is this fascistic?

The Truth About the Cultural Revolution (http://rwor.org/a/1251/communism_socialism_mao_china_facts.htm)

The Cultural Revolution in China: A Revolution Within the Revolution (http://rwor.org/a/003/cultural-revolution-china.htm)

Also, since you're into Che, the book "Che Guevara Speaks" also contains a lot of Che's thoughts on Mao, and even Stalin :o

RedStarOverChina
27th October 2005, 04:30
Originally posted by Free [email protected] 22 2005, 05:23 PM
"Yet while his people starved, Mao feasted on specialty foods, responding to stories of peasant suffering with statements like: "Having only tree leaves to eat? So be it." and " 'Oh, peasants' lives are so hard' - the end of the world! I have never thought so.""

More: http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/1018/p13s02-bogn.html
This Mao bashing thing is going too far.

STOP READING CAPITALIST PROPAGANDA, FOR GOD'S SAKE!

RedStarOverChina
27th October 2005, 04:34
Originally posted by Free [email protected] 25 2005, 03:43 AM

What's your reference point?

What the American main stream media has to offer.
This just in:
American media sucks!

If u actually believe in their crap, u'd say Che Guevara is an asshole too.

True Marxists have to forget practically everthing they tell you in mainstream media. Don't be an opportunist and place hope in them.

Lauren
28th October 2005, 09:46
i in no way am a supporter of Mao however he did not know of the mass famine's. i know it's hard to believe that he couldn't even see what was going on around him but it's true. he was told by everyone that they were meeting and even exceeding grain supply, however as we all know that was most certainly not the truth and Lysenkoism was defiantly not working, as it hadn’t in the U.S.S.R. Mao actually liked the peasants, hence why he lived with them for many years, so it’s rather hard to believe that he would have uttered such things.

celticfire
28th October 2005, 13:29
Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2005, 09:30 AM
i in no way am a supporter of Mao however he did not know of the mass famine's. i know it's hard to believe that he couldn't even see what was going on around him but it's true. he was told by everyone that they were meeting and even exceeding grain supply, however as we all know that was most certainly not the truth and Lysenkoism was defiantly not working, as it hadn’t in the U.S.S.R. Mao actually liked the peasants, hence why he lived with them for many years, so it’s rather hard to believe that he would have uttered such things.

Lauren Well I am a supporter of Mao, but I think you are only half-right. Many lower-level cadre were reporting higher numbers then were actually there. This was for many reasons, and even Mao himself believed for a time the amazing numbers were true. Afterwards, Mao highly criticisized himself - and even stepped down as President of the People's Republic. So Mao was wrong about somethings too. But I defend the GLP policies, they liberated women from just being house servants, it promoted community activism and self-management. But the important thing to remember is that China did solve its food problem: something most U.S. and Western "Professionals" said they could never do.

Many people have the idea Mao "dictated" everything (despite him being an elected person...) and everyone followed. That's not how government works in real life, even in Hitler's Germany. It takes a class of people to run a government, in China sometimes policies were for the proletariat and sometimes the new bourgeoisie (ie: Liu, Deng, etc.)

Here is a little excerpt:

The Great Leap Forward

China was ready for a Great Leap Forward.

The basic level of government in rural China is the county or township. The co-operatives of a whole county joined together to create something new, an economic and political unit through which tens of thousands of people built a common life. These People's Communes were a giant step in moving toward the elimination of the gap between the peasants and government, since now they would increasingly administer everything themselves. While work teams based on several families were still the basic unit, the confines of the clan and the village were breached as these teams became a part of a far broader organization. Irrigation, flood control, roads and so on could be planned on a large scale, with the knowledge and participation of the peasants playing the driving role in determining what should be done and how.

Mao's policy put the emphasis on the rural areas to gradually narrow the gap between the city and countryside and between workers and peasants. The move to People's Communes made it possible to make a large dent in this gap by building hospitals, schools and new industries in rural areas, rather than just expanding the existing facilities in the cities, even though that might seem "cheaper" in narrow economic terms.

The development of industry in the countryside would not have been possible without the People's Communes. Women and men were encouraged to take the initiative to organize, start up new factories and find new ways of meeting the needs of the people. The Party led this process and the government lent support in accordance with the country's overall economic plans, but everything hinged on the people's own efforts and initiative.

The Great Leap Forward solved many problems and achieved great things. But it ran into difficulties. There were three years of extremely severe drought. The Soviet Union sought to sabotage China's economy in retaliation for China's criticisms of the capitalist road the USSR had taken under Khrushchev. There was also opposition to the Leap from within the Chinese Communist Party. The Chinese capitalist roaders used these difficulties as an argument for why China, too, should change course.

Revolution, they said, had become a distraction from the laboring people's real job, to work. The people were not supposed to concern themselves with questions of state or how their workplaces were organized and run, and whether or not their labor was serving to gradually liberate all the abilities of all the people and what direction society as a whole was taking.

From: Celebrate the 50th Anniversary of the Chinese Revolution (http://rwor.org/a/v22/1080-89/1083/china_anniversary.htm)

Free Palestine
28th October 2005, 18:00
This Mao bashing thing is going too far.

STOP READING CAPITALIST PROPAGANDA, FOR GOD'S SAKE!

Calm down and get a hold of yourself. I actually didn't say I agreed with the author of the book. I just thought it was bound to come up and would facilitate an interesting discussion. Just as no person should be able to call themselves Marxist without studying capitalist literature, the same principle adheres here.

Nothing Human Is Alien
28th October 2005, 20:37
Perhaps you should start with Jon Lee Anderson's "Che Guevara: A Revolutionary Life" and read about Che

That book has been completely discredited. If you see it, instead of buying it, through it in the trash.

Andy Bowden
28th October 2005, 20:57
Has it?

:o


I heard it was good and pro-Che Guevara....

bolshevik butcher
28th October 2005, 23:26
Just becuase somethings pro che doesnt make it instantly good.

More Fire for the People
28th October 2005, 23:29
Originally posted by Clenched [email protected] 28 2005, 05:10 PM
Just becuase somethings pro che doesnt make it instantly good.
A note of interest, is that Che was pro-Mao. Lest you forget children, Che was a Marxist-Leninist inspired by Stalin and Mao but neither a Stalinist or Maoist.

Nothing Human Is Alien
29th October 2005, 00:12
Originally posted by Andy [email protected] 28 2005, 08:41 PM
Has it?

:o


I heard it was good and pro-Che Guevara....
You heard wrong.

Read 'Che Guevara and the Latin American Revolutionary Movement' by Manuel Piñeiro


A note of interest, is that Che was pro-Mao. Lest you forget children, Che was a Marxist-Leninist inspired by Stalin and Mao but neither a Stalinist or Maoist.

Che was a communist. He understood that you should take the possitive contributions and leave the failures. That's how we progress as a movement.

Hiero
29th October 2005, 07:21
The problem with these books is that they are anti scientific. If we are to be Marxists, then we study the conditions not individuals. The book is aimed to sell copies, so it focuses on indiviudals so it is naturally going to stretch the story or emphasise parts of Mao's life to make it look interesting. So anything outside of Mao's control becomes inside Mao's control, any act of violence on Mao's command, is not a tactical or political reason, but a reason of Mao's mental health.

The problem is that idiots believe this and believe that Mao and Stalin were actually crazy. They believe that famine and political crises are accountable on someones mental conditions. That is what is crazy.

Then again it is so much easier to quote this book and say "Mao was a monster" then to actually read Mao and study the Chinese political scene, economical and technological of that era in Chinese.

Lauren
29th October 2005, 10:51
Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2005, 01:13 PM
But I defend the GLP policies, they liberated women from just being house servants, it promoted community activism and self-management. But the important thing to remember is that China did solve its food problem: something most U.S. and Western "Professionals" said they could never do.

Many people have the idea Mao "dictated" everything (despite him being an elected person...) and everyone followed.

the great leap forward did liberate women true but it was only after the policies were stopped and Liu Shaoqi and Deng Xiaoping were allowed to fix the desasterious famine it caused that wiped out somewhere between 20 - 80 million people.
well Mao pretty much did dictate everything because if you weren't seen to agree with his policies you were denounced and either sent to "re-education" camps were they beat you until you gave in or died or you were just straight up executed for everyone to see.

Andy Bowden
29th October 2005, 18:11
What was wrong with the Jon Lee Anderson book then? Did it portray Che as being a liberal, or was it just another generic Guevara book?


Ive heard that Manuel Pinero one is good BTW.

Nothing Human Is Alien
29th October 2005, 18:39
It was just full of alot of fallacies, and alot of things it seems that Anderson just "made up". Piñeiro points out some of the things that were wrong with it in the book I mentioned; it's worth a read.

Black Dagger
29th October 2005, 19:57
What kind of fallacies? I'm curious from an historiography point of a view :P

camilo_cienfuegos
29th October 2005, 20:17
mao's inhumanity to mao, when will this madness end





well i thought it was funny

celticfire
29th October 2005, 20:40
Lauren:

"the great leap forward did liberate women true but it was only after the policies were stopped and Liu Shaoqi and Deng Xiaoping were allowed to fix the desasterious famine it caused that wiped out somewhere between 20 - 80 million people."

First of all, as I've stated before there were real problems facing the Great Leap Forward. Imagine you're trying build socialism in poor peasent country with virtually no industry. You have a friend (the Soviet Union) come help you build some factories and the people rally around organizing self-reliant communes protected by People's Militia's (not the regular national army the PLA!) and you start accomplishing a lot of great things...

But further down the road administrators at local levels begin to exagerate levels of grain, so you think you have more then you really do(!) and then there is a series of natural disassters, followed by the Soviet Union recalling ALL their technicians and leaving a hundred some (I think it was 154 to be exact...out of 300 some) unfinished! What do you do?

These were the real problems facing the Chinese masses.

But I want to address your accusation that "20 - 80 million" died.

Many people don't know that many more (in millions!) people died under Chiang Kai-shek then under Mao, and eventually in 1970 China had solved it's food problem. Something most Western professionals thought to be "impossible" because of the enormous population of China (about 800 million or so!)

That doesn't mean it was OK, it was alright -- there were real mistakes and real problems - but the basic method was correct.

Liu and Deng wanted capitalism to thrive, not socialism - and they attacked all the great socialist things in China. It is a Western "capitalist" view that they were "moderates" - they weren't - they were strongly pro-capitalist.

"well Mao pretty much did dictate everything because if you weren't seen to agree with his policies you were denounced and either sent to "re-education" camps were they beat you until you gave in or died or you were just straight up executed for everyone to see."

I don't doubt that some people were unfairly treated during the Cultural Revolution.

As Mao said, a revolution is not a dinner-party!

But Mao and other communist leaders tried very hard to offer guidance to the Red Guards including spreading the 16 point decision.

But this is a small, micro view of the overall and general experience of the Cultural Revolution: again, the principal aspect was a positive, liberating experience abrupted by spurts of violence between factionalizing red guards - which was pushed by the revisionists themselves!

The Cultural Revolution was a real revolution.

They masses took over for example the Municipal Government and Shanghai and created the Shanghai Revolutionary Committee which further brought the masses into administration with the Party and technician/professionals.

I suggest you read these:

- Social and Economic Achievements Under Mao (http://rwor.org/a/1248/mao_china_setting_record_straight.htm)
- The Truth About the Cultural Revolution (http://rwor.org/a/1251/communism_socialism_mao_china_facts.htm)
- On the Role of Mao Zedong (http://www.monthlyreview.org/0904hinton.htm) by William Hinton
- The Great Leap Forward (http://www-chaos.umd.edu/history/prc2.html)

celticfire
1st November 2005, 02:26
NEW--Raymond Lotta reviews new Mao biography:

"Not Historical Scholarship But Hysterical Rant" (http://www.thisiscommunism.org/pdf/review.pdf)

THE PROJECT TO SET THE RECORD STRAIGHT

Guerrilla22
2nd November 2005, 06:50
I agree with celticfire, there were definite problems with the great leap forward as were problems with collectivization in the USSR. However, building a socialist society is not easy and eventually Mao acknowledged that something had to be done and he made the necessary changes. Also does anyone seriously belive the numbers being provided to us by western sources? 80 million deaths? That's ridiculous. Also: why do we have people on here with Che avatars who are opposed to Mao?

Nothing Human Is Alien
2nd November 2005, 08:14
Probably the same reason we have people on here with Che avatars that are opposed to communism.

But I don't think it's fair to claim Che has such an affinity for Mao as is often done. I think he understood that Mao made contributions and failures. He wasn't big on personality-based doctrinares.

red_che
5th November 2005, 07:12
Originally posted by Free [email protected] 28 2005, 05:00 PM

This Mao bashing thing is going too far.

STOP READING CAPITALIST PROPAGANDA, FOR GOD'S SAKE!

Calm down and get a hold of yourself. I actually didn't say I agreed with the author of the book. I just thought it was bound to come up and would facilitate an interesting discussion. Just as no person should be able to call themselves Marxist without studying capitalist literature, the same principle adheres here.

Ow, I don't see anything principled in this piece of article you've posted. It's nothing but a piece of shit.

Guerrilla22
6th November 2005, 05:49
IN Anderson's book it states that Che sided with the Chinese during the sino-soviet split. He thought the Chinese showed a higher revolutionary awareness than the Soviets under Kruschev, whom he hated.

red_che
6th November 2005, 06:50
Originally posted by [email protected] 6 2005, 05:49 AM
IN Anderson's book it states that Che sided with the Chinese during the sino-soviet split. He thought the Chinese showed a higher revolutionary awareness than the Soviets under Kruschev, whom he hated.
That's true, Che sided with the Chinese. Che had a high regard for Mao. :)

karmaradical
6th November 2005, 08:35
gentlemen we are missing a big point here-MAOISM IS COMPLETE SHIT. And someone said Che was a maoist up there...if this is true...then Che is also a complete idiot(its not true anyway).

celticfire
6th November 2005, 19:11
Originally posted by [email protected] 6 2005, 08:35 AM
gentlemen we are missing a big point here-MAOISM IS COMPLETE SHIT. And someone said Che was a maoist up there...if this is true...then Che is also a complete idiot(its not true anyway).
Che wasn't a Maoist, he was a communist. But during the period Che was involved in the world political scene there was an occurance of revisionism (people who were communist in name but capitalist in practice) in Russia; they promoted "peaceful" roads to socialism, discounting the need for revolution.

Che strongly disagreed with this and sided with Mao Tse-tung who was leading the struggle against revisionism - of course, there is an argument that there wasn't much socialism to save in Russia, much of the revisionism had occured right under Stalin, but after Stalin the economics changed to increasingly rigged state capitalist economy. Though I refuse to defend Stalin, there was SOME right things under Stalin - I defend the collective policy (even though it was carried out in a very WRONG way) it was still basically right. But that changed under Khrushchev.

Che also sided with Mao on the issue of how to build socialism. Che thought the revolution needed to be something "big" (ie: he supported GREAT LEAP FORWARD type policies in Cuba) while Castro (who sided with Russia) thought they needed to continue to the capitalistic one-crop sugar economy. Che thought Cuba should aim for self-reliance.

What part of Maoism is "SHIT"? Revolution? Socialism? Mass struggle? Just curious. I am not a dogmatic Maoist, I think Maoism lacks formal outlet for mass control. Namely, I think if the last century proved anything its that we need MORE voting more elections and more democracy under socialism. Mao did lead a struggle to "deStalinize" (not in the way Krushchev & co. did) but essentially I think Mao's biggest failure was to break with Stalinism, especially the personality cult issue. But I still think Maoism is an important contribution to Marxism and revolutionary struggle in general.

bolshevik butcher
6th November 2005, 19:55
Originally posted by Diego Armando+Oct 28 2005, 10:29 PM--> (Diego Armando @ Oct 28 2005, 10:29 PM)
Clenched [email protected] 28 2005, 05:10 PM
Just becuase somethings pro che doesnt make it instantly good.
A note of interest, is that Che was pro-Mao. Lest you forget children, Che was a Marxist-Leninist inspired by Stalin and Mao but neither a Stalinist or Maoist. [/b]
So, we should do whatever what che thought? Not think for ourselves, you see that's the typical personality cultesque response of a maoist.

Che made many mistakes, including putting terrain ahead of where he had support, guerilla warfare isnt even a practical idea in the west anyway.

More Fire for the People
6th November 2005, 20:12
Originally posted by Clenched Fist+Nov 6 2005, 01:55 PM--> (Clenched Fist @ Nov 6 2005, 01:55 PM)
Originally posted by Diego [email protected] 28 2005, 10:29 PM

Clenched [email protected] 28 2005, 05:10 PM
Just becuase somethings pro che doesnt make it instantly good.
A note of interest, is that Che was pro-Mao. Lest you forget children, Che was a Marxist-Leninist inspired by Stalin and Mao but neither a Stalinist or Maoist.
So, we should do whatever what che thought? Not think for ourselves, you see that's the typical personality cultesque response of a maoist.

Che made many mistakes, including putting terrain ahead of where he had support, guerilla warfare isnt even a practical idea in the west anyway. [/b]
I just thought you should all know that the man you're praising may not agree with you. As for “personality cults” I do not belive they exist under a socialist system.

bolshevik butcher
6th November 2005, 20:21
Yeh, i can praise a man without agreeing with everything he thought. Now as for personality cults, are you seriously going to deny that mao tried to create one around himself?

karmaradical
6th November 2005, 21:19
Originally posted by [email protected] 6 2005, 07:11 PM

What part of Maoism is "SHIT"? Revolution? Socialism? Mass struggle? Just curious. I am not a dogmatic Maoist, I think Maoism lacks formal outlet for mass control. Namely, I think if the last century proved anything its that we need MORE voting more elections and more democracy under socialism. Mao did lead a struggle to "deStalinize" (not in the way Krushchev & co. did) but essentially I think Mao's biggest failure was to break with Stalinism, especially the personality cult issue. But I still think Maoism is an important contribution to Marxism and revolutionary struggle in general.
The peoples war theory as passed by Maoism has some good groundwork upon it. It worked quite well for the situation of that time (However im not sure if it would work in certain modern day countries). Yet the economic plans and leadership of Mao was deeply flawed. The economic and social choices he made during his ruling time devastated so much. Sure the starvation was less than under the nationalists, yet the death toll was still quite high. Not the most glorious transition into socialism if you ask me.

It seems as if Mao basically tried to copy certain aspects of stalin's collectivism, but largly failed while doing so. There also seem to be inherently opressive traits within the maoist theory, that have shown in China (and khmer rouge if you consider it maoist, as a few maoist parties do today). All in all i have yet to see anything really positive from maoism, other than that someday they would like to see communism. Besides the common goal we share, every other technique of the maoists seem like shit to me.

celticfire
7th November 2005, 01:38
karmaradical: While I disagree with the basic approach to your comment, I have to agree there was some serious flaws of "Stalinism" in Mao, but I still uphold him as a great revolutionary teacher. Overall Mao led the CCP to raise the living standards of hundreds of millions of people. The Great Leap Forward, though greatly flawed, was still a revolutionary and highly positive experience. The economy in China I think was something to be proud of and not to be dismissed.

Can you name any other country that industrialized so quickly with such few casualities? I doubt it.

gilhyle
7th November 2005, 19:01
I recently finished reading this book and I think some people on this tread are missing the point. The reviews acknowledge the research backing this book, they quibble about the failure to credit others - something which matters to them but not to me - and they question a few of the facts and many of the attitudes in the book.

All fine by me. The book is clearly written by people overwhelmed by the enormity of what they believed happened- so overwhelmed that they are beyond objectivity or balance.

But when all that is said, it remains the case that the book is full of evidence of the vilest betrayal of the Communist Party of China and of the people of China by Mao.

It suggests a qualitively distinct degeneration of the CHinese revolution, which places what Mao did beyond anything done by Stalin.

It is not enough to say it is propaganda.

celticfire
8th November 2005, 00:32
Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2005, 07:01 PM
I recently finished reading this book and I think some people on this tread are missing the point. The reviews acknowledge the research backing this book, they quibble about the failure to credit others - something which matters to them but not to me - and they question a few of the facts and many of the attitudes in the book.

All fine by me. The book is clearly written by people overwhelmed by the enormity of what they believed happened- so overwhelmed that they are beyond objectivity or balance.

But when all that is said, it remains the case that the book is full of evidence of the vilest betrayal of the Communist Party of China and of the people of China by Mao.

It suggests a qualitively distinct degeneration of the CHinese revolution, which places what Mao did beyond anything done by Stalin.

It is not enough to say it is propaganda.
I think we should very critical of history as written by people with political aims. Just because something is written in a book, or is someone's opinion, doesn't make it objectively true. I've personally met several Chinese people that still love Mao. Are they "more" right"?

This book is propaganda. I don't support uncritically upholding Mao, or any revolutionary, but this book is simply a laughable joke.

Opinions are like a**holes, everyone has one.

For example, if I call you a child molester in the newspaper and people believe it - does that make it true?

From: New Mao Biography: Not Historical Scholarship but Hysterical Rant (http://rwor.org/a/021/mao-biography-hysterical-rant.htm)

The following article about a newly published book on Mao Zedong is a version of a leaflet being distributed by Set the Record Straight.

Mao: The Unknown Story by Jung Chang and Jon Halliday is not historical scholarship but hysterical rant. The purpose of this work is to demonize Mao Zedong and destroy his reputation, pure and simple. The master narrative is that Mao was evil from the day he was born--and committed evil upon evil until the day he died. Chang and Halliday reconstruct and fabricate history to make the case that a scheming and bloodthirsty opportunist hijacked an entire people and country.

Reader beware. You are being lied to. Mao: The Unknown Story plays fast and loose with facts, offers far-fetched theories based not on careful investigation but unrelenting hatred of Mao, and twists reality to fit an anticommunist agenda. The message in the bottle is that the Chinese revolution was not really necessary, and that great revolutionary leaders like Mao are in fact power-crazed tyrants and perpetrators of towering crimes. This book is a brief against revolution and revolutionary leaders. If you swallowed the justifying arguments about "weapons of mass destruction," you’ll adore this book.

Mao: The Unknown Story employs a methodology that distorts reality:

1.) Was a revolution needed?

The authors paint a picture of a revolution based on manipulation and terror. They whitewash the incredible misery and suffering of the old society, and the fact that for more than a century China had been beaten down and dominated by the imperialist powers of the West and Japan. They deny that tens and hundreds of millions of Chinese peasants and workers could possibly take up the revolutionary cause as their own. The masses of people have no agency in the company of Chang and Halliday--they are but pawns and putty.

You would not learn from this book that pre-revolutionary China was a society where arranged marriages and footbinding were widespread social practices. Or that four million people died each year of infectious and parasitic diseases. Or that in a city like Shanghai, young women workers were locked in textile factories at night, and one out of five persons was an opium addict. You wouldn’t know that the revolution in power rapidly transformed these social conditions. The Marriage Law of 1950, one of the first decrees of the new People’s Republic, established marriage by mutual consent and the right to divorce, and outlawed the sale of children and infanticide.

2.) Mao as revolutionary theorist and revolutionary leader.

It borders on the absurd. The authors are consumed with such venom for Mao that they cannot--in all 630 pages of text--bring themselves to treat Mao’s writings and speeches about the revolutionary process before and after the seizure of power. In the sordid psychohistory of Chang and Halliday, Mao’s ideas are simply hypocritical and manipulative means to attain personal domination. In fact, Mao analyzed the nature of Chinese society and developed programs and policies that spoke to the real material and social contradictions of Chinese society; and Mao brought forth a vision of moving society beyond exploitation and social divisions. All this inspired and motivated great numbers of people in China and around the world. This is what the authors find so reprehensible.

3.) Shoddy methods and sensationalistic claims.

The authors bask in the glow of a vast arsenal of references and sources--memoirs, hitherto inaccessible archives, interviews--and ten years of research. Boasting more than 125 pages of notes and sources…what the book says must be true--right? No, this is a snow job, and the relationship between claim and supporting evidence is shoddy beyond belief.

Let’s take three egregious examples:

The famous battle at the Dadu River Bridge during the Long March is now declared (pp. 152-55) to be a hoax, a self-serving myth invented by Mao and the Chinese Communist Party. The authors claim that “there was no battle” and “no Nationalist [Kuomintang] troops at the bridge.” They cite as a substantiating source the Kuomintang (KMT) archives. The KMT, which set world standards in corruption, and which suffered defeat at the hands of the Communist Party-led forces, is not exactly the most reliable source. Still, these archives contain useful historiographic materials—but, lo and behold, other scholars who have studied the KMT archives say they do not at all support the Chang/Halliday rewrite of history. Okay, but the authors furnish what they consider to be additional evidence, and key to this are the recollections of a “sprightly 93-year old” local woman they say they met in 1997! This quality of scholarship would be laughable in any other discipline. But somehow you can get away with this when it comes to Mao and the Chinese Revolution.
Listen to this gem about Mao’s view on education (p. 438): “Mao’s approach was not to raise the general standard of education in society as a whole, but to focus on a small elite, predominantly in science and other ‘useful’ subjects, and leave the rest of the population to be illiterate or semi-literate slave laborers.” If that were the case, how can you explain the fact that China’s literacy rate vaulted from 15 percent in 1949 to close to 80 percent by Mao’s death? Or that educational resources were vastly expanded in the rural areas during the Cultural Revolution, leading to rise in middle-school enrollment from 15 to 58 million? Or that with the huge opening up of educational opportunities through the Cultural Revolution, worker and peasant students became the great majority of China’s university enrollment by the early 1970s?
Or take this claim about the Cultural Revolution: "There was not one school in the whole of China where atrocities did not occur" (p. 518). Surely, we would expect to find ample documentation for such a sweeping statement of fact. But you will search in vain for a single source. The method is clear. Repeat the slander often enough…and it becomes fact.
4.) The Chinese Revolution on the scales of history.

The Chinese revolution was a turning point in the history of the 20th century. As Mao said in 1949, "the Chinese people have stood up." They stood up to feudal landlords, the Japanese invaders, the U.S.-financed KMT army, and foreign powers. Despite the authors’ outrageous claims, it was Mao who led in developing a military strategy to surround the cities from the countryside. He led in the development of a socialist society marked by the creative energy and initiative of those who had previously been treated as no more than a pair of hands.

This was a revolution that brought enormous social and economic progress to the great majority of people. Life expectancy more than doubled, from 32 years in 1949 to 65 years in 1975. China under Mao achieved what the U.S. has proven incapable of coming close to: a universal and egalitarian health care system. Industry grew by more than 10 percent a year during the Cultural Revolution. And by the early 1970s, China had solved its historic food problem. This revolution saved untold numbers of lives.

The Cultural Revolution, far from being Mao’s "Great Purge," was a "revolution within the revolution." It was a broad movement and upheaval aimed at preventing a new privileged class from taking power and turning China into what it has become since Mao died in 1976: a sweatshop paradise riddled with corruption and inequality. China is no longer socialist.

5.) What’s at stake in the debate over this book?

Basically two things. First, the truth of Mao and the Chinese revolution--what this revolution was about, what Mao stood for and did, and what the Chinese people accomplished. Second, the question of humanity’s future: can we put an end to the horrific exploitation, oppression, and inequality of the world as it is, and radically transform it--or is this the only world possible? Mao: The Unknown Story is character assassination with a reactionary moral writ large: dreams of radical and revolutionary change are doomed; long live the status quo.

gilhyle
8th November 2005, 20:13
Originally posted by [email protected] 8 2005, 12:32 AM

Mao: The Unknown Story employs a methodology that distorts reality:

1.) Was a revolution needed?

The authors paint a picture of a revolution based on manipulation and terror. They whitewash the incredible misery and suffering of the old society, and the fact that for more than a century China had been beaten down and dominated by the imperialist powers of the West and Japan.....

2.) Mao as revolutionary theorist and revolutionary leader.

It borders on the absurd. The authors are consumed with such venom for Mao that they cannot--in all 630 pages of text--bring themselves to treat Mao’s writings and speeches about the revolutionary process before and after the seizure of power.....

3.) Shoddy methods and sensationalistic claims.

The authors bask in the glow of a vast arsenal of references and sources--memoirs, hitherto inaccessible archives, interviews--and ten years of research. Boasting more than 125 pages of notes and sources…what the book says must be true--right? No, this is a snow job, and the relationship between claim and supporting evidence is shoddy beyond belief.

Let’s take three egregious examples:

The famous battle at the Dadu River Bridge during the Long March is now declared (pp. 152-55) to be a hoax, a self-serving myth invented by Mao and the Chinese Communist Party. The authors claim that “there was no battle” and “no Nationalist [Kuomintang] troops at the bridge.” They cite as a substantiating source the Kuomintang (KMT) archives. The KMT, which set world standards in corruption, and which suffered defeat at the hands of the Communist Party-led forces, is not exactly the most reliable source. Still, these archives contain useful historiographic materials—but, lo and behold, other scholars who have studied the KMT archives say they do not at all support the Chang/Halliday rewrite of history. Okay, but the authors furnish what they consider to be additional evidence, and key to this are the recollections of a “sprightly 93-year old” local woman they say they met in 1997! This quality of scholarship would be laughable in any other discipline. But somehow you can get away with this when it comes to Mao and the Chinese Revolution.
Listen to this gem about Mao’s view on education (p. 438): “Mao’s approach was not to raise the general standard of education in society as a whole, but to focus on a small elite, predominantly in science and other ‘useful’ subjects, and leave the rest of the population to be illiterate or semi-literate slave laborers.” If that were the case, how can you explain the fact that China’s literacy rate vaulted from 15 percent in 1949 to close to 80 percent by Mao’s death? Or that educational resources were vastly expanded in the rural areas during the Cultural Revolution, leading to rise in middle-school enrollment from 15 to 58 million? Or that with the huge opening up of educational opportunities through the Cultural Revolution, worker and peasant students became the great majority of China’s university enrollment by the early 1970s?
Or take this claim about the Cultural Revolution: "There was not one school in the whole of China where atrocities did not occur" (p. 518). Surely, we would expect to find ample documentation for such a sweeping statement of fact. But you will search in vain for a single source. The method is clear. Repeat the slander often enough…and it becomes fact.
4.) The Chinese Revolution on the scales of history.

The Chinese revolution was a turning point in the history of the 20th century. As Mao said in 1949, "the Chinese people have stood up." They stood up to feudal landlords, the Japanese invaders, the U.S.-financed KMT army, and foreign powers. Despite the authors’ outrageous claims, it was Mao who led in developing a military strategy to surround the cities from the countryside.....

The Cultural Revolution, far from being Mao’s "Great Purge," was a "revolution within the revolution." It was a broad movement and upheaval aimed at preventing a new privileged class from taking power and turning China into what it has become since Mao died in 1976: a sweatshop paradise riddled with corruption and inequality. China is no longer socialist.

5.) What’s at stake in the debate over this book?

Basically two things. First, the truth of Mao and the Chinese revolution--what this revolution was about, what Mao stood for and did, and what the Chinese people accomplished. Second, the question of humanity’s future: can we put an end to the horrific exploitation, oppression, and inequality of the world as it is, and radically transform it--or is this the only world possible? Mao: The Unknown Story is character assassination with a reactionary moral writ large: dreams of radical and revolutionary change are doomed; long live the status quo.

[/i]
[QUOTE]

It is striking to me that this article (which I quote in edited form above) does not deal at all with the substance of the book.

On 1): The book just does not claim either that there were no peasant upheavals or revolutionary fervour or that everything was better under the Kuomindang. It doesn't say any of that.

On 2): The book is not about Mao's ideas. It doesn't claim to be about them, except to claim that Mao was an avid and educated reader of the Chinese classics and a fan of the Chinese culture he purged in the course of the cultural revolution. It does suggest that some ideas he expressed as a young man supporting a sort of Stirnerian egoism (my term) continued to be his view. But there is no attempt to assess his works on Marxism. THus the point you make is true, but beside the point of this book.

On 3): You understate the claims they make on the Dadu River Bridge (alleged) battle. The point is that there are no records of the names of ANY casualties, that CONTEMPORARY nationalist military records suggest there was noone there to fight and that an eyewitness suggests that nothing happened. This is quite a reasonable basis to question the claim of a battle (and even then I am leaving out some further points made in the book). I note that you tell us that 'other scholars' think otherwise. Elaborating on this would be useful to illustrate weaknesses in their scholarship, but you don't elaborate.

Your second objection to a claim unsupported by evidence objects that Mao did not support the education of an elite. You give an (unreferenced) statistic that middle school enrollment rose from 15 to 58 million. This would be consistent with the education of an elite, in a population of 500-700 million. You give another unreferenced literacy stat of 80%, which I suspect is highly disputable. Then you just claim that all the students were from worker-peasant backgrounds in the 1970s.....is this before or after all the other students got rusticated ?

Then you object, as your third major example of unsubtantiated claims that a patently hyperbolic sentence does not admit of the inevitable exceptions.

What is striking about your three examples is that only the Dadu River bridge battle point is one of the major claims in the book and most of the major claims are not touched on by you.

On 4): you claim that Mao invented the strategy of surrounding the cities. The authors present a lot of detail about this - though far from enough, their treatment of 1945-49 military history is quite inadequate. You don't engage with any of that. You don't give any concrete examples of direct military leadership by Mao against the details of their claims. Instead you just rhetorically counterclaim: 'Oh yes he did'. We aren't in playschool any more, you need to substantiate your claims.

On 5): you are obviously correct that what is at stake in this book is "First, the truth of Mao and the Chinese revolution--what this revolution was about, what Mao stood for and did, and what the Chinese people accomplished." Tell us something we did not know. We certainly would not know from your commentary that the book tries to explain in some detail how dependent on direct, substantial USSR aid (and criticial U.S. error in refusing to support the Natioanlist against Mao) the Chinese Red Army was.


This book is character assasination. I have no doubt it is a deeply flawed book. But its fundamental claims are three-fold:

- that Mao systematically sacrificed CCP resources and personel in pursuit of his personal power within the CCP;

- that Mao set out to brutalise the whole Nation as a method of political control by complex processes of terror unparralleled in any other country;

- that Mao systematically impoverished China in a vain attempt to transform it into a strategic Nuclear power.

These claims are broadly substantiated in the book - the first and third better than the second. You achieve little but self-satisfaction with rhetorical reponses based on spitting out the word 'propaganda'. A bit of self-criticism might be in order.

celticfire
14th November 2005, 06:48
gilhyle:

Are you with the CIA or FBI?

As pointed out already, this book has a politcal aim: to discredit Mao and Maoism.
Revolutionaries are always controversial figures, from Che to Mumia. And just as there are books praising them, there are books slandering them.

This particular book is a poorly researched piece of reactionary garbage. Not because of its accusations, but its proof (which is NONE.)

Mao led workers to take control from below.

And if you want to get into the real fine detail, if (I say if, it's a BIG if...) Mao wanted to take personal control he really didn't use it in is final days. The last meeting of the NPC he spent away while national polcies were being put in places and debated...

Mao didn't pull a Stalin and just have the opposition killed or deported, he had them thrown out by revolutionary means from below.

I reject your nonsense that I need to do a self-criticism, if I do, its for actually reading to your simple minded cow poop.

Janus
18th November 2005, 23:05
Mao was a great leader; he was able to stabilize China and help the plight of the peasants. However, he was still a person and did commit some errors such as the Great Leap Forward even though he did have a good political reason for it. Mao also had a lust for power as can be seen by the Cultural Revolution in which he tried to wrest power from the other party leaders as well as create a personality cult. The main thing is that Mao did care for the peasants as can be seen by the land reforms and his later mistakes were the result of a lack of insight and judgement rather than cruelty. Mao was a national leader and therefore could not be totally benevolent and merciful. After all he did say "Communism is not love, communism is a hammer with which you use to crush the enemy." So the view that Mao was an animal and totally cruel is incorrect because under his leadership China was able to rise out of its constant state of turmoil and war.