9-11 "Planned and Controlled Demolition"

[andrew_the_fox]

In the wake of 9-11 in America everyone was to busy filling up their SUV's with gas, and putting american flags on everything that they didn't realize it was all a carefully planned controlled definition by the tyrants that they call leaders.

has anyone here been to [ www.question911.com ] ?

check out the documentary called "Loose Change" It'll chnge your life. Even if your not an American.

[Ownthink]

I have reviewed many sites like this and the evidence to say the least is pretty convincing.

Just look at the Pentagon. No plane wreckage on lawn, about a 15 foot hole from a 116 foot plane, no wing entry, etc.

And the supposedly downed plane in Pennsylvania? No plane pieces? Barely even a hole/trench? Shot down for sure.

Also, EVERY SINGLE VIDEO THAT WAS AIMED AT THE PENTAGON WAS SIEZED BY THE FBI WITHIN 10 MINITUES OF THE "CRASH".

Theese videos have never been released. There is only one video out there, and it is about 1 frame per second, from a highway, I believe. It shows SOMETHING SILVER about 15-30 feet long slamming into the pentagon making an extremely small hole.

Oh yeah, the windows above where the object hit were NOT BROKEN.

Also, a 747 coming in to the Pentagon at ground level had to pass over a specific highway. It would've blown cars to hell.

This physical evidence is all too fucking convincing of something deeper going on here....


http://www.serendipity.li/wot/aa11.html

http://www.asile.org/citoyens/numero13/pen.../erreurs_en.htm (http://www.asile.org/citoyens/numero13/pentagone/erreurs_en.htm)

[enigma2517]

I've seen it.

And things similar to it.

I know people can just label it a conspirarcy theory, but I would actually like to see what people think of the evidence presented.

Please don't respond with..."you're stupid"

[Urban Guerrilla]

Pretty convincing. I've seen a flash movie about the pentagon that explains it. I have a question. Was that a real boeing with real civilian passengers on it? :che:

[Atlas Swallowed]

I read that the Passenger aircraft that supposidly hit the Pentagon disappeared on the radar over Ohio near an abandoned military base. The pictures of the jet engine that they pulled out of the Pentagon was definatly too small to be the engine of large jet. After the crash all the small debree was picked up by government employees wearing suits, which is really f'-up. Alot of people were speculating that it was a missle that hit the pentagon then the government released photographs of an engine and a wheel being removed, they were way too small to be a commercial airliners though. It was probably hit with an unmanned drone. I wonder what the scumbags did with the people on the airliner.

[Tekun]

Yeah, I first came to acknowledge this info when I heard Immortal Technique's "Cause of Death"

And I gained alot of info regarding the doubts of what happened on 9/11
Stuff about how Israeli intelligence agencies knew what was gonna happen b4 it actually happened
A lil suggestion, never talk about this wit non-radical leftsts
I once brought the topic up with my white uncle (my fam is mostly latino) and I gave him several convincing arguments

His reaction: He hasn't talked to me since that day
Oh well, phuk it
Im my own man
And the truth hurts

Great info comrades :D

[We'reTheFirstToDie]

I just watched "Loose Change", and i gotta say, that has definately changed my view on everything that has happened the past couple of years involving the US and terrorism.

[andrew_the_fox]

Loose change was phenominal. I tried to show a couple of other (as they label themselves) "leftist" friends and they dismissed it as "fanatical" and "mostly babbling" it was almost as if they were defending the governments lies. I havent spoken with them in days.

All I know the way they were hit and the way they were collapsed DO NOT ADD UP. The way they were hit the tops should have fallen over and the bottoms still sitting on the ground because the 47 support columns went down to the BEDROCK of our PLANET.

Why would the government do this? These buildings generated a lot of money and has led to todays constant stock market death.

Keep this thread alive I want more opinions, and if you can downoad "Loose Change". Even if you have a low speed connection let it download over night and watch with an open mind....

http://www.question911.com
:angry:

[Jimmie Higgins]

I'm sorry, my computer is too slow and I don't know if I'm interested enough to spend the time downloading - I would be interested enough to read a summery of the argument if someone wanted to provide one.

Look, I'm sorry but conspiracy thoeries are the syphilis of the left. Not that the government isn't up to shit we don't know about, but I am very skeptical of variations of this conspiracy I have heard.

THe problem with most conspiracy theories is that their self-fufilling circular logic paints a picture of an all-powerful government which we are helpless to do anything against. So, what, the government orchestrated the terrorist attacks to trick the population into going along with war and resrictions on civil liberties? Why didn't they do this before? Why would they let support for their war and president drop if they could orchestrate a bunch of fake attacks? Was the world trade center bombing in the 90s orchestrated by Al-quieda or was that the government too (providing a backstory and plausability to their "Al-quieda coverstory")? Was the OK city bombing done by the government too? Wouldn't the bombing in Spain have to be the US government too - why would they allow it do the opposite, as far as public opinion to the war, in Spain? THe UK subway bombing? Why would the government ever loose favor if the government was sophisticated and clever and scheeming enough to orchestrate events to manipulate public sentiment?

Lastly, we don't need the speculation of conspiracies in order to make the right argument that the government and the sytem it upholds is unjust, dangerous, callous toward human wellbeing and just out and out evil. Why speculate when we can use undisputed facts and the plain-old realities of everyday observable existance to condem Bush, the governments, and capitalism itself?

[Atlas Swallowed]

They are not conspiracy theories they are probabilities. All the cases you have cited Gravedigger have evidence that goes against the Governments official stories. Just like people governments make mistakes or are just plain wrong. I don't recall any Iraqis throwing the invading US army any flowers.

You should take the time to research any of your examples, most have tons of holes in them. The OKC bombing and both trade center attacks have the most holes. Conspiracy theories and syphillis do have something in common, your getting fucked in both cases.

[Marxistinn]

There are tons of questions and doubts on the subject of the bombing.

Just look at World Trade Center 7, it collapsed, "because" of a small fire on one floor the sprinklers would take care of. When talking to a Republican about it, he said it was because of the Collapsing of the other WTC towers, but that happened some hours before, and all the other houses didn't collapse.

And a lot of houses around the WTC 1&2 were bought by one or two persons, super-duper insured just a couple of weeks before the incident, and those buildings collapsed, but not the other ones.

hmm...

[Arca]

That video was amazing. I haven't seen anything that examines ever piece of evidence (the debris from the pentagon, for example).

And also, I didn't know what the link was between the bush administration and what happened, but now it's been shown, it's blatantly obvious.

The FBI stories were hilarious - 7 black boxes were destroyed while a passport drops to the ground? :lol:

[andrew_the_fox]

it is a phenominal video. another VERY good one to check out is "In Plane Site" also available on question 911.com which I thought was even better then "Loose Change"


trust me there is more here than even we can imagine. yet they always seem one step ahead

[enigma2517]

Its probably something to keep in mind, although I wouldn't go out on the street and preach about it.

If you have a limited amount of time and resources, would you spend them talking to a person about capitalism or 9/11?

I know what I'd pick.

Not saying we should ignore this entirely.

[bcbm]

Just curious, how many of the people speculating on how towers should collapse when hit by airplanes, or how holes should appear in buildings hit by plans have any engineering experience, or can point to similar instances in order to compare and contrast data?

[andrew_the_fox]

It's easy all you have to do is LOOK! :blink: It's mind boggling how the government could expect us to believe these lies. Look at the government's claim of the pentagon incident. They say it was nailed by a 757, that flew over the highway bounced off the wall then hit the building, yet there is only an approximate 20 foot hole in the wall of the pentagon, before the wall eventually collapsed of course and the lawn left unscathed. No marks where the wings went through the wall, not a single blade of grass disturbed. These videos prove nothing 100% everyone should admit that, but it does raise good questions and the facts presented definitely give these ideas more credit then just a "conspiracy theory"

www.question911.com

PS: Download In Plane Site. It's phenominal>!

[Jimmie Higgins]

I still maintain that conspiracy theories are not the best political arguments to make and are often just apolitical. A NAZI could rasie supicions about the terrorist attack and draw conclusions that support his anti-semetic, paranoia view that it was orchestrated by jews who controll the government.

I am open to the fact that the government might be behind many shady things, but this dosn't really fit the M.O. It's so risky: the american populace could have responded like the Spanish populace when the train-bombing happened. The dirty business powerful governments engage in, historically tend to be much more direct and much more transparent and somewhat clumsey. The gulf of Tonkin was an exageration and a made up attack to justify intensifying a operation already in porgress; other dirty dealsing usually include attempts to insltall pupet rulers in other countries and coups and so on.

Condeming the capitalist system in general and the US government in particular does not depend on weather or not the US government orchestrated this attack. Why wase our time trying figure out if the government may have done this or may have done that, we should be thinking about how to challenge and resist this government and the war and daily inequality and poverty are more than enough evidence to back up our case.

[tiger]

Gravedigger, you are (probably) right...

[ComradeOm]

Originally posted by Atlas [email protected] 23 2005, 01:40 PM
They are not conspiracy theories they are probabilities. All the cases you have cited Gravedigger have evidence that goes against the Governments official stories. Just like people governments make mistakes or are just plain wrong. I don't recall any Iraqis throwing the invading US army any flowers.
They're possibilities and fairly remote ones at that. Conspiracy nuts love to spot a possible gap in any evidence and try and force it into a full blown theory. The simple truth is that the simplest explanation is usually right. With 9-11 the simplest explanation is that Osama’s boys jumped into planes and flew them into their targets. And, like it or not, while governments may exaggerate and occasionally stage events, they do not launch large public attacks on their own country, their own institutions and their own economy. Certainly not when there's plenty of people in the world more than happy to do it for them.

[h&s]

That Flash animation is probably the biggest load of bollocks I have seen in a long time.
e.g.
'There were no raging fires.'
So why the fuck were people jumping out the windows to escape the intense heat?

[Ownthink]

Watched a special on the Skull and Bones society (Secret Yale society... most members have gone on to be powerful people such as presiden,ts senators, wtc. 51 of the 56 people who signed the Declaration of Independence were Freemasons. This shit is scary) last night.

Turns out that the president of the World Trade organization is S&B and so is George W.

Could this be part of the "fake a attack so we can spawn a global war on terror and have free reign to do anything" plot? You bet your ass it is.

One guy even went so far as to say that he is SURE that in the next 5 to 10 years we will all be living in a global fascist state similar to 1984 or Nazi Germany with a "New World Order", one world Religion, one world Military, One world Everything.

http://therevolutionist.net.tc/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_World_Ord...28conspiracy%29 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_World_Order_%28conspiracy%29)

[Luís Henrique]

Capitalism is anarchic by nature; it cannot be "controled" at all. There is no Bilderberg, no Elders of Zion, no Trilateral Comission that can change that.

Those fantasies are always ideologically right-wing; they reflect the fear of the petty-bourgeoisie that some kind of state capitalism will come out gradually from the concentration of capital. They are usually associated with very clear extreme-right themes: the UN as an evil anti-American foreign power, antisemitism (open or covert, as in anti-Central Bank scare), anti-Europeism, strong isolationism, "gun rights" ideology, anti-ID fantasies, etc.

They do not have anything to do with a proper, leftist criticism of capitalism and the bourgeois State.

Luís Henrique

[Ownthink]

Originally posted by Luís [email protected] 24 2005, 08:23 PM
Capitalism is anarchic by nature; it cannot be "controled" at all. There is no Bilderberg, no Elders of Zion, no Trilateral Comission that can change that.

Those fantasies are always ideologically right-wing; they reflect the fear of the petty-bourgeoisie that some kind of state capitalism will come out gradually from the concentration of capital. They are usually associated with very clear extreme-right themes: the UN as an evil anti-American foreign power, antisemitism (open or covert, as in anti-Central Bank scare), anti-Europeism, strong isolationism, "gun rights" ideology, anti-ID fantasies, etc.

They do not have anything to do with a proper, leftist criticism of capitalism and the bourgeois State.

Luís Henrique
Duly Noted. Good points, as well.

[andrew_the_fox]

A constant arguement I hear from my fellow leftists is "Why bother research this?"... is there a more idiotic question? 9/11 is one of the most significant occurrences of our time! If we leftists have a valid arguement against these obnoxious conservative nationalists proving their heroic government was involved in this atrocity that could bring people onto our side! At the very least it would encourage people to think beyond what they are shown by the media. I told a strong conservative I was arguing with today about this, and got him to agree that the pentagon attack seemed sketchy and he always "kind of wondered about that" so I told him "If they lied about that, then what else could they have lied about?" He agreed. this is a very important thing.

download Painful Deceptions. it answers many of these questions

www.question911.com

[Matty_UK]

Also suspicious is the anthrax letters. Remember that? They were traced to an FBI lab, and blamed on one guy. But the guy wasn't a loner, he had a girlfriend, and how could he act so fast after 9/11 if he didn't know anything about it?

[andrew_the_fox]

And then we never heard about it again.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2005, 01:14 AM
A constant arguement I hear from my fellow leftists is "Why bother research this?"... is there a more idiotic question? 9/11 is one of the most significant occurrences of our time! If we leftists have a valid arguement against these obnoxious conservative nationalists proving their heroic government was involved in this atrocity that could bring people onto our side! At the very least it would encourage people to think beyond what they are shown by the media. I told a strong conservative I was arguing with today about this, and got him to agree that the pentagon attack seemed sketchy and he always "kind of wondered about that" so I told him "If they lied about that, then what else could they have lied about?" He agreed. this is a very important thing.

download Painful Deceptions. it answers many of these questions

www.question911.com
So then we can't condemn the US government's warmongeing rights-revoking responce to the 9/11 disaster unless we proove that the government staged this event? No, I don't think the responce to 9/11 was inherently one which would cause pro-war sentiment, it was how the government responded and "capitalized" on the event.

If they did stage it to attack Afganistan and Iraq, why wern't any of the "terrorists" Iraqi or Afgani? It would have made there case much easier on themselves.

I don't find it too much of a streatch to believe that people in other countries are angry and hate the US because of what the US does all over the world. Public sentiment has turned against the war even without believing the attack was faked. If the left had been stronger and more organized at the time of the terrorist responce, we could have brought a different interpretation of the event (than "they hate our freedom" so we have to occupy Afganistan and Iraq). We could have said look at how the government's actions that we have no controll over have come back to effect ordinary people in this country.

Are slums, poverty, military occupation, tax-giveaways to the rich while the rest of us suffer a recession, no health care, racism and so on not enough to convince people that the US government and our rulers do not rule in our intrests?

If we want to know for sure the covert shit this government does, we will never know it from speculation. We will have a much better picture if we organize workers and overthrow capitalism... then we can dedicate teams of people to look through all the government's classified files and so on and release that information to everyone!

Our task now should not be to speculate on "what ifs" when we know for sure that the US is occupying other countries and destroying the lives of people in Iraq and the US (to name only two places) and needs to be stopped.

Don't get me wrong, my argument isn't that people are "stupid" for speculating or anything like that (and it is kind of interesting), just that it isn't all that productive when we can use real undisputed facts like to Katrina disaster and everyday poverty and the war to make our case.

[Luís Henrique]

If we leftists have a valid arguement against these obnoxious conservative nationalists proving their heroic government was involved in this atrocity that could bring people onto our side!

And if we haven't? Or if this "valid argument" is in fact only valid from a perspective even to the right of those conservative nationalists?

As far as I can see, those people are arguing that a left wing conspiracy is taking over the US, with the accomplicity of Bush, to make America a part of a "socialist" international government.


At the very least it would encourage people to think beyond what they are shown by the media.

This isn't encouraging people to think, it's encouraging people to believe.


I told a strong conservative I was arguing with today about this, and got him to agree that the pentagon attack seemed sketchy and he always "kind of wondered about that" so I told him "If they lied about that, then what else could they have lied about?"

But, then, if, as it seems most probable, it isn't the government who is lying, but those who are making those sensational claims, he may well ask you, "what else could you be lying me about"?


He agreed.

He agreed because it matches his deeper views about the world, ie, that a conspiracy of Jews, Freemasons, UN agents, and who knows what else, is trying to steal his godgiven right to own a pistol, and force him to become gay.


A constant arguement I hear from my fellow leftists is "Why bother research this?"... is there a more idiotic question? 9/11 is one of the most significant occurrences of our time!

9/11 is important? Yes. Is it one of the "most significant ocurrences of our time"? Highly dubious.

I suggest we don't bother to research this because it is based upon deep far right paranoia, not in reality. If you want a conspiracy to research, look on how the most part of the product or our work ends being property of those who do not work at all.

Or if you need to look at something that really has an espionage novel flavour, go after those misterious options on the futures market against UA and AA. There somebody took real, material profit from the attacks, and this wouldn't have been possible without inside knowledge.

Luís Henrique

[Jimmie Higgins]

At the very least it would encourage people to think beyond what they are shown by the media. Daily experience causes people to think beyond what they are shown in the media. Sure, the media can get away with some lies for a short ammount of time, but repeating the government's line about Iraqis supporting the US last only as long as people in the US start seeing attacks against the occupation rise. The media can parrot the president when he says the economy is doing good only for so long before people who have their personal debts growing dismiss these rosey depictions.

And so this is why you have a great deal of cynacism about the media... who dosn't complain about the media? THe right turns to FOX or AM raidio, the left turns to local left radio or "the Daily Show" or internet sites.

[Magraheed]

And so this is why you have a great deal of cynacism about the media... who dosn't complain about the media? THe right turns to FOX or AM raidio, the left turns to local left radio or "the Daily Show" or internet sites.

^^^ A very good point

We leftist should not complain about everything on a site, but do shit, insted of being a armchair revolutionary.


Well i believe the goverment was indeed behind this attack, but not just because of the video, its because i dont trust anything anymore.



Peace.

[enigma2517]

And, like it or not, while governments may exaggerate and occasionally stage events, they do not launch large public attacks on their own country, their own institutions and their own economy. Certainly not when there's plenty of people in the world more than happy to do it for them.

Nazi's burning down the Reichstag and then blaming it on Communists? Yep

Like I said, still don't know about the theories, but you can't deny that this event bought the US an ENORMOUS amount of political capital. Think of how many geopolitically related things were allowed specifically because of 9/11.

Edit: After reading the post by Luis and Gravedigger I think I do agree with them (even though I have been already...for the most part)

Exposing 9/11 would be a great way to hurt nationalism but what would it tell people? Without a leftist critique of society, people will just be like "OH! Man Bush sucks lets vote in a REAL patriot"

Thats probably the best that can happen

The worst is that we lose whatever little credibility and patience people have with us.

I've promoted 9/11 awareness before but now I think I'm going to give it a rest. There are more important things to do.