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PlasticJesus
16th January 2003, 02:29
Child Abuse has never been an acceptable practice in the heart of any humane person. It prepares the next generation for brutality and barbaric behavior -- what is called by its advocates as "discipline." Striking the flesh of an undeveloped child for the sake of achieving an objective is the most unsophisticated method of achieving that objective. It teaches cruelty and it inflicts scars on both the body and the mind. To think of the nights every abused child spends huddled in their room, pondering their worthlessness, the dark nights, the sting of a paddle -- to think of the tears and the blood torn from zestful youth for the sake of "discipline." Of all the cruelties committed, nothing can be so devastating as to bring a child into the world, only to teach it that it has no value, to beat it, to strike it, to make it know every abominable brutality ever known to man. Think of the trembling, small hands, afraid of their parents and always confused, always failing to understand why mother and father are quicker to deliver a painful touch than an affectionate touch. Of what viciousness it is needed to deal such blows, to deliver insurmountable pain, it is unspeakable to even think of the actions. By destroying the youth, riddling their lives with fear and distress, we accomplish nothing but the sorrows that will keep them up questioning the virtues of living.

Science would confirm that such brutality is destructive. The light of reason has investigated the barbaric conditioning of Child Abuse. To quote one scientific article concerning child abuse and long term damage...


THE AFTERMATH of childhood abuse can manifest itself at any age in a variety of ways. Internally it can appear as depression, anxiety, suicidal thoughts or posttraumatic stress; it can also be expressed outwardly as aggression, impulsiveness, delinquency, hyperactivity or substance abuse. One of the more perplexing psychiatric conditions that is strongly associated with early ill-treatment is borderline personality disorder. Someone with this dysfunction characteristically sees others in black-and-white terms, often first putting a person on a pedestal, then vilifying the same person after some perceived slight or betrayal. Those afflicted are also prone to volcanic outbursts of anger and transient episodes of paranoia and psychosis. They typically have a history of intense, unstable relationships, feel empty or unsure of their identity, commonly try to escape through substance abuse, and experience self-destructive or suicidal impulses. [Scientific American, March 2002, Scars that Won't Heal: The Neurobiology of Child Abuse, page 70.]
A plethora of horrific plights will infect those who are abused as a child. Abused children will suffer from suicidal thoughts and anxiety, pain and distress, feeling helplessness and worthlessness. It is clearly to be seen when under the microscope of science. There is no denying the truth of these statements.

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"...what shall I say of children; of the little children in alleys and sub-cellars; the little children who turn pale when they hear their father's footsteps; little children who run away when they only hear their names called by the lips of a mother; little children -- the children of poverty, the children of crime, the children of brutality, wherever they are -- flotsam and jetsam upon the wild, mad sea of life -- my heart goes out to them, one and all." -- Robert Green Ingersoll, The Liberty of All, 1877

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I shall quote a rather extreme example of Child Abuse. The purpose of this example is not to render hearts merciless to the barbaric nature of this horrendous practice -- it is to provide a glimpse into what Child Abuse means, to provide an empathic touch of reason....


In 1994 Boston police were shocked to discover a malnourished four-year-old locked away in a filthy Roxbury apartment, where he lived in dreadfully squalid conditions. Worse, the boy's tiny hands were found to have been horrendously burned. It emerged that his drug-abusng mother had held the child's hands under a steaming-hot faucet to punish him for eating her boyfriend's food, despite her instructions not to do so. The ailing youngster had been given no medical care at all. The disturbing story quickly made national headlines. Later placed in foster care, the boy received skin grafts to help his scarred hands regain their function. But even though the victim's physical wounds were treated, recent research findings indicate that any injuries inflicted to his developing mind may never truly heal. [Scientific American, March 2002, Scars that Won't Heal: The Neurobiology of Child Abuse, page 68.]
In this instance, the amount of cruelty and abuse was appalling. The mother who created this being, this child, with vindictiveness and heartlessness abused this child. She endeavored to cause pain to the son who adored her. She made him tremble, she made him scared -- she filled him with the pains and the blights that some of us cannot even imagine. To think that the mother figure has been endowed with so many responsibilities and yet this mother has made herself an unforgivable ignoramus. Compassion and affection were not considered virtues by this mother. She was not quick to offer a glance that would warm your heart. Her vice was brutality. She was not, that is to say, a Humanitarian. From Child Abuse, many individuals are likely to become Antisocial. One scientific article remarks on this...

ANTISOCIAL BEHAVIOR resulting from childhood abuse appears to be caused by overexcitation of the limbic system, the primitive midbrain region that regulates memory and emotion. Two relatively small, deep-lying brain structures--the hippocampus and the amygdala--are thought to play prominent roles in generating this kind of interpersonal dysfunction. The hippocampus is important in determining what incoming information will be stored in long-term memory. The principal task of the amygdala is to filter and interpret incoming sensory information in the context of the individual's survival and emotional needs and then to help initiate appropriate responses. [Scientific American, March 2002, Scars that Won't Heal: The Neurobiology of Child Abuse, page 71.]
Studies show that those who have been abused as children have a 113% higher chance of showing symptoms of temporal lobe epilepsy, which disrupts the functioning of the hippocampus and the amygdala. A review of brain-wave abnormalities in electroencephalograms (EEGs) of 115 patients to a child and adolescent psychiatric hospital showed that brain-wave abnormalities were in 54% of patients with a history of early trauma but in only 27% of nonabused patients. The reviewers concluded, "The irregularities arose in frontal and temporal brain regions and, to our suprise, specifically involved in the left hemisphere rather than both sides, as one would expect." In a cross study of 17 adult survivors of Child Abuse and 17 healthy subjects, all matched for age, sex, race, handedness, years of education, and years of alcohol abuse, those who were abused as children had a 12% smaller left hippocampus than those of healthy adults, but the right hippocampus was at normal size. (Again, the hippocampus is important in determining what incoming information will be stored in long-term memory.) In 1997, Murray B. Stein of the University of California at San Diego conducted a study on 21 adult women who had been sexual abused as children and found that the left hippocampus in these women was significantly reduced. In 2001, Martin Driessen of Gilead Hospital in Bielefeld, Germany, and his colleagues reported a 16% reduction in hippocampus size and an 8% reduction in amygdala zine in adult women with borderline personality disorder and a history of childhood mistreatment. [Scientific information procured from Scientific American, March 2002, Scars that Won't Heal: The Neurobiology of Child Abuse.] To quote Martin H. Teicher concerning Child Abuse and damage....

Until recently, psychologists believed that mistreatment during childhood led to arrested psychosocial development and self-defeating psychic defense mechanisms in adults. New brain imaging surveys and other experiments have shown that child abuse can cause permanent damage to the neural structure and functioning of the developing brain itself. [Scientific American, March 2002, Scars that Won't Heal: The Neurobiology of Child Abuse, page 70.]
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"I tell you the children have the same rights that we have, and we ought to treat them as though they were human beings. They should be reared with love, with kindness, with tenderness, and not with brutality. That is my idea of children." -- Robert Green Ingersoll, The Liberty of All, 1877

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Child Abuse is cruel and inhumane. To take someone so new, so vigorous, so fresh to the world, and strike them down with unbearable pains is vicious. Nothing can be said of it than that it is harshly unfair and barbaric in nature. Not only is it horrendous that children are abused, but it is often done by a trusted authority figure. It teaches the children that they should feel bad about themselves, that they deserve abuse because they do not hold a certain amount of worth. To take the initiative to bring a new life into this world and then to take no responsibility -- creating a life and causing it countless misery -- is one of the most horrific deeds imaginable. These are children of fear and abuse. The first thing they are taught is pain and the lesson comes from the one who reared them. There can be nothing so brutal and heartless as Child Abuse.

redstar2000
16th January 2003, 21:28
There was a lot of talk about this in the "Marx and the Family" thread (theory)...but, of course, superficial in the light of THIS post.

Thank you, Plastic Jesus, you are ABSOLUTELY right on this one!

Ari HR
17th January 2003, 18:13
Quote: from redstar2000 on 10:28 pm on Jan. you are ABSOLUTELY right on this one!

I have to agree.

mentalbunny
19th January 2003, 21:29
Hmm, well I was smacked when I was younger and it was never really that bad and I don't think it's messed me up, I just hated the build up to it then I would pretend that it hurt for a bit of sympathy but I never got any. i don't think that physical force should be illegal or anything but i agree that it shouldn't be used in most circumstances, there are better ways of doing it usually.

man in the red suit
19th January 2003, 23:17
I agree with you, child abuse is heartless and inhumane, but was there anyone here who didn't already know that? that was a fantastic and well articulated post however I guess I don't really see the point to it.

redstar2000
20th January 2003, 00:47
Unfortunately, mitrs, there are people here who don't know it.

Therefore, it must be repeated. And that's sad. :(

man in the red suit
20th January 2003, 00:54
Quote: from redstar2000 on 12:47 am on Jan. 20, 2003
Unfortunately, mitrs, there are people here who don't know it.

Therefore, it must be repeated. And that's sad. :(

that is VERY sad if there are actually people here who do NOT know that child abuse is sad.

mentalbunny
20th January 2003, 21:17
It really shocks me that there are so many twisted humans that would break the bones of their children and step children. Also one of my friend's little bother was beaten up by two guys so badly that he was unconscious for 23 hours, broke a wrist and an ankle, that's sad. he's 13 and the guys were 17, he had no chance, but that's pretty unrelated.

Nickademus
21st January 2003, 06:01
i agree that child abuse is extremely horrific and needs to be addressed. but i feel like a few important thigns have been left out of this short discussion.

first of all, i think that we also can't forget how detrimental mental abuse on a child can be as well. in fact in many situations it is as bad as physical abuse.

but we also forget the reason many people abuse their children. and i'm not in any way shape or form excusing their behaviour, but we really need to begin looking at why people abuse children. in many aboriginal communities in canada it is an endless cycle. many of the people abuse because they really don't know any other way of life. they were abused, as were their parents. in this case particularly its because aboriginal peoples have been robbed of their very way of life. but the point is that there is a reson behind it all. my father for example, was physically abused as a child. he decided he would never ever strike any of his children. and he rarely every does, but he doesn't know how to show anyone that he cares about them. he only knows how to show anger, hatred and disgust. as such, he has been extremely mentally abusive. there's always a reason for everything. again i boil this down to the need to be more PROACTIVE rather than reactive on such important issues.

Dhul Fiqar
21st January 2003, 11:03
Some good points and many truths in this thread so far, but unless we get someone in here advocating child abuse I fear it won't be much of a discussion... But hey, sometimes it's good to agree :)

--- G.

Doshka
21st January 2003, 11:32
that article was amazing really but i dissagree with mentalbunny...i believe physical force SHOULD be illegal...giving these sick people the chance to do it a little bit without punishment is bound to cause them to continue and add to that...also these children are not just hit and physically abused..they are mentally brainwashed towhee they are scared to go to officials or whatever to tell them whats going on..so making it partly legal doesnt help at all! we have to wipe it out...these abused children grow up to be murderers and crazy people...these problems can be solved without force

Nickademus
21st January 2003, 14:28
wow doshka i think you went a little to far in saying that abused children grow up to be murderers and crazy people. perhaps you should rethink that statement

redstar2000
21st January 2003, 16:55
No, DF, it's unlikely that anyone will post a ringing declaration in favor of child abuse...they know what a storm of abuse would descend on their heads from the rest of us.

My hope from a thread like this is that the people who have been abused as children will stop and think and perhaps not repeat the cycle with their own children.

I've actually known more than one basically decent person say that their kids, when they have them, are going to get physically abused if they misbehave. When I objected, I was told "it didn't hurt me...so why should it hurt them? You've got to punish kids, otherwise they'll run wild," etc., etc., etc.

What such folks need to realize is that it did hurt them...at the very least, it turned them into future child abusers.

This must be stopped!

:angry:

Doshka
21st January 2003, 17:59
im sorry if i frased the sentence wrong Nickademus but what i meant was that these people are likely to become criminals...not all the time but often enough to make it dangerouse...im not talking about the people who get a slap now and then but the people who are seriously abused...another thing is that even with the ones who are just slapped...violence and negative ohysical behavior become a norm...they get used to seeing it around the house...and consider it normal...they start using it when they are angry...taking out theyr anger physically..breaking things, hiting theyr siblings...they grow up and hit theyr children and wives at the very least...its not right and should be stopped emmediatly

ratm545
21st January 2003, 19:17
anyone read the book 'a child called "it"'? it's really a great book, autobiography of a very extreme case of child abuse. it will really shock you. i recommend going out and getting it

Nickademus
21st January 2003, 19:35
i realized that you probably didn't mean exactly what you said in that other post doshka, but i really think we have to be aware of the language we use and how we use it if we want to be seen as a viable alternative to the current system.

and even those who are seriously abused aren't crazy necessarily. i know many people that were abused but they were lucky enough to have a strong community around them to embrace them and they have yet to be abusive towards their children. not everyone turns out like those before them (i'm a prime example of that).

and while i'm posting i think we should try to avoid calling people criminals. we really should start thinking of criminal acts rather than criminal people. labelling people as criminals is part of the endless cycle and the sense of hopelessness people feel.

megwetch

Doshka
21st January 2003, 20:05
i never said crazy....and ur right thank you for the comment...but the issue is not an individual thing..this isnt one person its s culture and idea...no body can say its right...you might not nessesarily be effected but why should we take the chance when in could cost lives?
and i CANT believe you ratm545...that book made me vomit for a week...i couldnt sleep right, eat right...god damn i had trouble breathing..how can you suggest it?! its scary

Non-Sectarian Bastard!
21st January 2003, 20:56
Doska is right. Because it's been proven by different scientific tests, that violence is beeing passed from parent to child. If someone suffers from abuse and beatings during his childhood. He will experience it as "normal", because he hasn't experienced it otherwise. So when this abused, beated up person grows up he will just as his own parents beat up his children and there is a big chance that he beats other people asswel. Creating many social problems.
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And when you beat your children, even for a slightest, you learn them that there is no doubt or questioning on authority.

A government is a reflection of society. Both government and citizens influence each other. When a you have a society that contains of people who question each authority, they are less vunerable for governmental and authoritical abuse.

Valkyrie
21st January 2003, 21:17
The KIlling of Lisa Steinberg

http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murd...nberg/index.htm (http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/family/lisa_steinberg/index.htm)

Nickademus
21st January 2003, 22:10
i never said that we shouldn't punish those who abuse children. all i was doing was pointing out the fact that we also have to be proactive in our approach to this situation. the simple fact that it is a societal issue means that it requires more than reaction. that was all i was trying to say.

and not to be a nag, but you did say crazy. read your post again.

Valkyrie
23rd January 2003, 00:13
I think child abusers should get some proactive ass-beating from their cell mates..... I have no sympathy or tolerance for those fuckers...

I don't mean people that discipline thier kids.. I mean the ones who beat the shit out of them everyday.... I don't care what lame excuse they use for their childhood... there is no justification of a 175 lb person beating a 35 lb kid.

Weatherman
23rd January 2003, 09:10
Well so much for your avatar Paris. Our prison system doesnt work and no one should be subjected to it. Revenge isnt the way. After they get an ass beat in prison, what do you think they are going to do when they get home?

We need to Rehabilitate them. If you treat a human, like a human, he will start acting like one. I think MalcomX is a prime example of how Rehabilitation prisons are an awesome idea. Its like living in a house with other inmates, but theres a large library to learn from and debates are held; most of the prisoners end up being friends with each other instead of beating up each other.

Hey Nickademus, that criminal acts instead of criminals was briliant; thats exactly what I'm talking about, treating humans like humans. Rehabilitation.

Doshka
23rd January 2003, 09:26
your probably right weatherman but i tend to agree with paris...these people are monsters and should be punished towhere they realize that they are wrong in doing what they did...bullies

Nickademus
23rd January 2003, 13:53
punishment alone doesn't work. how long do we have to keep believing this lie? punishment and rehabilitation can be put together but simply beating the shit out of someone or locking them up is not the solution. remember alot of these people who beat their children have allready had the shit kicked out of them, when they were kids...obviously that didn't work now did it.

prisons do not work. plain and simple. after you learn to survive in prison you leave as a more exposed to criminal acts and thinking they are the only truth. few people leave prison realizing that they were wrong. it doesn't work. i hate to push tv stuff but you should watch the tv show OZ that is about a maximum security prison. it is pretty explicit but it really gets your brain thinking.

and weatherman the idea wasn't mine. it is an aboriginal concept that was articulated to me by rupert ross in his book returning to the teaches. it is an excellent book that considers the justice system of Canada and the justice systems of aboriginal communities in canada. in fact i recommend everyone, especially those of you who continue to feel like paris and doshka read this book. you will see that aboriginal communities, where child and wife abuse is extremely common, are finally starting to take back the idea of justice and are starting to deal with criminal acts. when they do, the recidivism rate is almost next to nothing. hm, now that's something we definately need to look to.

megwetch

Valkyrie
23rd January 2003, 18:28
MY AVATAR IS A DIRECT PROTEST AGAINST A WAR IN IRAQ --- Where people liken to child abusers will slaughter a defenseless people needlessly, for domination, control and because they couldn't get their own way.


Yeah, Joel Steinberg... poor sod.. has to live out his life in prison..... may even be getting his ass kicked every day.... How Horrible. What an injustice.

Hey, Why don't you put yourself in the shoes of Lisa Steinberg and the thousands of others like her who are getting pommelled every day of their lives by the person who is suppose to protect them -- til the final heinous coup de grace puts an end to their life of torture and misery.

There is something other than Revenge or Rehabilitation -- it's called Redress. People like Joel Steinberg should never find a loophole in the law that would allow them to avert responsibility and punishment for their crimes.

I make no apologies for standing up on the side of the real victims.

I hope Steinberg's getting his ass kicked... so he knows a little of the torture he subjected upon that little girl.

Nickademus
23rd January 2003, 23:27
k paris, first of all i never said people shouldn't be held responsible or punished for their actions. i simply said putting them in prisons alone is not helping the situation. again we need to be PROACTIVE. find out why they do what they do and try to change things so that they don't do it again, or so that other people in the same situation don't follow their mistakes.

megwetch

Valkyrie
24th January 2003, 16:50
That wasn't directed at you Nickademus, but rather to the one who said .... "Our prison system doesn't work.. no one should be subjected to it." It works for the ones who Should be in there.. Yeah, The ones who shouldn't , should be let the hell out.

Those emasculated vulgers who prey on children to tortore them to death and those pedophiliac murderers Should be in there. They are the ones who are inhuman who didn't treat someone like a human being. Infants and toddlers cannot fight back. And for the most part a lot of these people have no reason for doing that shit, even if they did have a lame excuse, it still doesn't justify it.. ---- a lot of these people have good parents, had a good upbringing and are educated and employed and more than likely they are White. Most serial killers and child predators are white. So, the minority/racial discrimination argument goes right out the window on that one.

Anyway, No, I have not watched OZ. It's one of those pay-extra channels here. So, I won't be watching it anytime soon. But as far as the prison industry here in the US... There are work programs. From what I understand everyone who is able has to work. There is secondary (college) education, counseling and support groups, Conjugal and contact visits, recreational facilities. Yeah, it might not be the best.. however, it's not suppose to be a Resort with hot tubs, and four-star chefs..

But, This is how inhumane the prison system is.... Homeless people will commit some petty crime because they can be assured a warm place to sleep and a meal in the morning. They know this.. and the option to them is better than sleeping in the freezing cold. Instead of trying to rehabilitate the scumbags of society, they should dump the money into building homeless shelters and give those people some job skills.

Now, don't get me wrong... I think the justice system is not even handed at all in meting out fair judgement and needs an overhaul. the three-strikes laws is completely absurd and drug related and non-violent crimes and unintentional manslaughters should not be incarcerated into prisons. However, the Joel Steinbergs, Charles Mansons, these three scumbags http://www.cnn.com/US/9807/06/dragging.dea...h.02/index.html (http://www.cnn.com/US/9807/06/dragging.death.02/index.html) and that ilk should be in prison --- For Life.

Welp, that's my opinion people.. there you have it.

mentalbunny
24th January 2003, 22:15
Weatherman, great idea! However there is one group of people that I have very little sympathy for : hard drug (eg heroin) dealers. What do we do with them? They destroy the lives of the users and the growers, it's too much, they must be held responsible (maybe this should go in a sperate thread).