"Support Israeli Occupation Refusers" -Petition

[il Commie]

http://www.petitiononline.com/refusers/petition.html

(French and Spanish on the link)

SUPPORT ISRAELI OCCUPATION REFUSERS!
Alex Cohn, Orwa Zidan, Shaul Mograbi-Berger and Uri Natan are currently in military prison for their refusal, on grounds of conscientious objection, to serve the Israeli occupation of Palestinian territories.
The Forum of Parents of Conscientious Objectors (the Parents Forum) is asking you to sign the petition below in support of the occupation refusers and demanding their immediate release from military prison. (This petition will be published in the press.)

**

To: Minister of Defense

Refuse the Occupation

Now, that the smoke-screen of the disengagement plan has dispersed, it has become clear once again that Israel’s brutal occupation of the Palestinian territories has by no means ended and is in fact gaining force. The Israeli government continues building the separation wall, expanding its illegal settlements and oppressing the Palestinian people in the occupied territories.
Alex Cohn, Orwa Zidan, Shaul Mograbi-Berger and Uri Natan are in military prison for their conscientious refusal to enlist and take part in the occupation and its ensuing oppression. Their imprisonment is meant only to punish them and prevent them from obeying the dictate of their conscience.
We call upon the Minister of Defense and the Chief of Staff: Allow the jailed objectors to follow their conscience -
Free the Occupation Refusers!

Sincerely,

The Undersigned (http://new.petitiononline.com/mod_perl/signed.cgi?refusers)

[tiger]

Sign it, yeah that will help. Perhaps you should think about "Hamas & Co" that kills innocent people in Israel. Maybe then they will stop "occupy"...

[bolshevik butcher]

Signed it, no one here is justifying hamass, however israels ocupation of th west bank doesnt seem to do a lot sto stop hamass, neither does atacking peacful demonstrations or civilians.

[dso79]

The occupation started way before Hamas was founded; the violence is the result of the occupation, not the other way round.

Though signing such petitions probably won’t really make a difference, it’s still important to let the refuseniks know that we support them.

[tiger]

However, if the occupation stopped, would Hamas stop? Think about it.

They don't want any Israel at all. Idiots.

[bolshevik butcher]

No i tiger, your right there i doubt hamass would stop. However there support base would be suvereley curtailed.

[Intifada]

I have signed in order to show my solidarity with these good people.

[Sir Aunty Christ]

Signed it.

[Amusing Scrotum]

Signed it.

Me too.

[Free Palestine]

Consider it signed. As Communists, we must stand in solidarity with these refuseniks who have stated (at the risk of jail time) that they refuse to serve Israel’s occupation of Palestinians in the West Bank, Gaza Strip, and East Jerusalem and commit war crimes and flagrant breaches of international law (as Israel routinely does).


Originally posted by tiger
However, if the occupation stopped, would Hamas stop? Think about it.

They don't want any Israel at all. Idiots.

Nonsense. Do you know how little resistance there was from within the occupied territories, considering what was being done to the population? The Palestinians were "samidin," those who tried to endure, passively, while they were being killed, tortured, humiliated, watching their lands and resources stolen, with the crucial support of the global superpower. That goes back to the earliest days. They tried being peaceful from 1948-1967, no results.

And Hamas wouldn't pose a threat to anyone if the occupation stopped, certainly not to a state that has air and armored forces that are larger and more advanced than any NATO power (US excluded), as well as 100s of nuclear weapons, and the backing of the global superpower.

[Intifada]

They tried being peaceful from 1948-1967, no results.


Moreover, even to this day, most Palestinian resistance is done in a non-violent fashion.

The problem is that the Western - in particular US - media portrays Palestinian resistance as comprising of just violent and extremist elements.

[il Commie]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2005, 11:52 AM
However, if the occupation stopped, would Hamas stop? Think about it.

They don't want any Israel at all. Idiots.
Hizbullah doesn't want Israel either. But since Israel ended the occupation in Lebanon, they don't fight us anymore.

[dso79]

I also believe that Hamas would stop if the occupation ended. Of course, like Hizbullah, they’d still like to wipe Israel off the map, but they know that that’s not gonna happen. Besides, if the Palestinians in the territories would be able to live normal lives there wouldn’t be any support for another war. Hamas needs public support, so they usually listen to what the people want. For example, they suspended their bombing campaign when polls showed that public support for suicide bombings had dwindled.

Also note that the number of attacks against Israel has already diminished. I'm not aware of any innocent people dying in resistance attacks in recent months. The major resistance factions, including Hamas, still abide by the ceasefire and they only launch attacks in response to Israeli aggression. Suicide bombings have become very rare.

[Atlas Swallowed]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2005, 11:01 AM
Sign it, yeah that will help. Perhaps you should think about "Hamas & Co" that kills innocent people in Israel. Maybe then they will stop "occupy"...
Hamas was and probably still funded by the Israeli government.

http://www.upi.com/inc/iew.php?storyID=18062002-051845-8272r

Governments have a habit of making their own eniemies to push through their twisted agendas. AlCIAeda is a good example.

The IDF kills alot innocents. They are just terrorists with a uniform.

[Free Palestine]

Atlas Swallowed is right. Israel itself helped found Hamas as a divide and conquer strategy against the Palestinians (also to Islamicize the face of Palestinian struggle in order to make it less appealing on the international front). This strategy was a complete failure. Before the founding of Hamas, the Islamists were attacking Leftists in Palestine all the time. This internecine conflict came to an end soon after the founding of Hamas. After things settled down a bit, the Palestinian resistance moved to a point of equilibrium and called for “national unity.” Presently, open Leftists and Communists in the PFLP and DFLP fight side by side, with no problems whatsoever, with the hardline Islamists in Hamas. This was never possible before. Thanks Israel!

[il Commie]

Originally posted by "dso79"
I'm not aware of any innocent people dying in resistance attacks in recent months.


Matat Rosenfeld-Adler, Kineret Mendel
http://www.nrg.co.il/images/archive/gallery/378/726.jpg

Az Ben-Meir
http://www.nrg.co.il/images/archive/main/378/703.jpg

[Free Palestine]

Settlers, who are usually armed, are far from "innocent."

[tiger]

Originally posted by Atlas Swallowed+Oct 19 2005, 07:34 PM--> (Atlas Swallowed @ Oct 19 2005, 07:34 PM)
[email protected] 19 2005, 11:01 AM
Sign it, yeah that will help. Perhaps you should think about "Hamas & Co" that kills innocent people in Israel. Maybe then they will stop "occupy"...
Hamas was and probably still funded by the Israeli government.

http://www.upi.com/inc/iew.php?storyID=18062002-051845-8272r

Governments have a habit of making their own eniemies to push through their twisted agendas. AlCIAeda is a good example.

The IDF kills alot innocents. They are just terrorists with a uniform. [/b]
Dumbass! Should Hamas be funded by the Israeli goverment? Bullshit.

Fuck you.

[tiger]

Originally posted by Free [email protected] 19 2005, 08:27 PM
Settlers, who are usually armed, are far from "innocent."
Fuck the settlers, the bomb(s) in Tel Aviv who killed over 20 people? My relatives live there and I don't want them to be blown up by some fucking terrorists.

I don't like the occupation, I would like a free Palestine... but, don't forget the palestinian terrorists.

[viva le revolution]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2005, 07:51 AM

Dumbass! Should Hamas be funded by the Israeli goverment? Bullshit.

Fuck you.
First of all think rationally. Before HAMAS, the PLO was a secular organization supported and funded by the soviet union, like nasser's Egypt.To counter-act this Israel alongwith America statrted funding HAMAS to counter-act the PLO's and ultimately the soviet union's influence amongst the palestinian independance movement and population.
This same policy was carried out by America and Pakistan as regards the Afghan war. When religious mujahideen were used to combat secular soviet influence in Afghanistan.

[rioters bloc]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2005, 06:04 PM
I don't like the occupation, I would like a free Palestine... but, don't forget the palestinian terrorists.
so long as you don't forget the israeli ones.

[tiger]

Originally posted by viva le revolution+Oct 20 2005, 08:35 AM--> (viva le revolution @ Oct 20 2005, 08:35 AM)
[email protected] 20 2005, 07:51 AM

Dumbass! Should Hamas be funded by the Israeli goverment? Bullshit.

Fuck you.
First of all think rationally. Before HAMAS, the PLO was a secular organization supported and funded by the soviet union, like nasser's Egypt.To counter-act this Israel alongwith America statrted funding HAMAS to counter-act the PLO's and ultimately the soviet union's influence amongst the palestinian independance movement and population.
This same policy was carried out by America and Pakistan as regards the Afghan war. When religious mujahideen were used to combat secular soviet influence in Afghanistan. [/b]
I don't know if that is true, it depends on who you ask, but I don't think that ISR gov still funds them...

[tiger]

Originally posted by rioters bloc+Oct 20 2005, 08:48 AM--> (rioters bloc @ Oct 20 2005, 08:48 AM)
[email protected] 20 2005, 06:04 PM
I don't like the occupation, I would like a free Palestine... but, don't forget the palestinian terrorists.
so long as you don't forget the israeli ones. [/b]
Which ones? The army? The government? The people?

[il Commie]

Originally posted by Free [email protected] 19 2005, 08:27 PM
Settlers, who are usually armed, are far from "innocent."
OH PLEASE!

No 14 years old child is guilty of the occupation, even if his parents brought him to live in a settlement.

Killing two unarmed young women in NOT legitimate!

This is like the IDF saying about every child he kills "he was near a terrorist". The Palestinian terrorists are similar: they say every child in a settlement is a legitimate target.

Killing children is ILLEGITIMATE, IMMORAL, WRONG and CRIMINAL. And the fact that this child was a settler is no excuse.

[Intifada]

(tiger)

don't know if that is true, it depends on who you ask, but I don't think that ISR gov still funds them...

The Israeli government did at one point, beginning in the 1970s, fund Hamas in order to undermine the power held by the secular PLO.

It was a classic case of a "divide and conquer" strategy.


Which ones? The army? The government? The people?

The I'D'F and the Israeli government which gives the Army the authority to continue the illegal occupation of Palestinian territory.

The fact is that the illegal occupation is the root of all the violence between Israelis and Palestinians.

The Palestinians have a right to fight their aggressors, in a legitimate fashion.

Only once the occupation is ended, can peace become a possibility.

[Intifada]

By the way, I agree with il Commie's post about the targeting of illegal Israeli settlers. The murder of innocent people cannot further the Palestinian cause for justice and freedom.

[Atlas Swallowed]

Originally posted by tiger+Oct 20 2005, 07:51 AM--> (tiger @ Oct 20 2005, 07:51 AM)
Originally posted by Atlas [email protected] 19 2005, 07:34 PM

[email protected] 19 2005, 11:01 AM
Sign it, yeah that will help. Perhaps you should think about "Hamas & Co" that kills innocent people in Israel. Maybe then they will stop "occupy"...
Hamas was and probably still funded by the Israeli government.

http://www.upi.com/inc/iew.php?storyID=18062002-051845-8272r

Governments have a habit of making their own eniemies to push through their twisted agendas. AlCIAeda is a good example.

The IDF kills alot innocents. They are just terrorists with a uniform.
Dumbass! Should Hamas be funded by the Israeli goverment? Bullshit.

Fuck you.[/b]
Who said that Hamas "should" be funded by the Israeli government. I said they were and probably still are. Thier actions seem to justify the Israeli hawks agenda. If they were really serving the Palestinians they would be killing those in power instead of powerless civillians. Thankyou for the insults, if you do not agree with me fine, prove me wrong. I would be posting on Free Republic if I wanted to deal with that crap.

[dso79]

No 14 years old child is guilty of the occupation, even if his parents brought him to live in a settlement.

Many of the ‘hilltop youths‘, who systematically terrorize Palestinians, are around that age. Of course it’s possible that this guy was different, but somehow I doubt it. He was from Maon, in the Hebron area, where some of the worst Jewish extremists live.


Killing two unarmed young women in NOT legitimate!

Those women were also from a settlement in the Hebron area, and at least one of them had been active in the anti-pullout movement. They were extremists, not innocents.


By the way, I agree with il Commie's post about the targeting of illegal Israeli settlers. The murder of innocent people cannot further the Palestinian cause for justice and freedom.

Then what are the Palestinians supposed to do? The settlers steal their land, attack them, poison their water wells etc. Peaceful means won’t stop them and the IDF isn’t going to help the Palestinians. Armed resistance is not only legitimate, it’s the only option, so if an ‘innocent’ settler dies in an attack the settlers are to blame, not the Palestinians.

[Free Palestine]

"Innocent people?" I am surprised to hear you portray such a civil and legitimate image of the Israeli settlers, Intifada.

May I remind you that these "innocent" settlers are illegally residing on Palestinian lands occupied by Israel? It is the Palestinians who are under siege from the settlers, not the other way. Israeli soldiers surround each settlement and block it off from the surrounding towns and villages. People cannot get to work, farmers cannot get to their fields to harvest their produce, and distributors cannot get their good delivered to shops. They raze olive groves, expropriate land, poison wells, and massacre Palestinians routinely. In fact, more Palestinians have been killed by settlers than Israelis by car bombs.

All settlements are illegal and an obstance to peace themselves. So saying the Palestinians should not resist foreign settlement simply verserses the relationship altogether. The occupier, the colonist, is by definition the initiator of violence, which consequently and very logically leads to resistance from the occupied, the colonized. The Palestinians are defending themselves from gun-toting and murderous settlers who are no less violent or ruthless than the Israeli army.

The settlers are dangerous fanatics who are ready to risk the lives of their own children for their colonial mission. The settlers in Gaza who were protesting their "evacuation" held signs like "Death to the Arabs", and "Let the Army Win!", meaning allow the army (as if it is currently fettered) to kill and maim more Palestinians until they all succumb and bow under the settlers' feet. Those tendencies borrow a chapter from European fascism during World War II - the same fanaticism, dehumanization of the victims, 'divine' motives. Would you call those European fascists "innocent" too?

Depicting the settlers as victims of Palestinian aggression is one of the crudest and most humiliating expressions I have ever heard. The Palestinian struggle against the expropriation of their own land is an anti-colonialist struggle to restore to the Palestinians their national rights in their country. The only future that illegal settlement offers the Jewish population of Palestine is endless war, and rightly so.

[Intifada]

The murder of illegal settlers will not and has not furthered the Palestinian cause, and has only allowed the Israelis to continue to legitimise their terrorist actions in Occupied Palestine.

I must admit, however, that I used the term "innocent" a bit loosely.

By all means, the Palestinians have the right to resist, but the targeting of illegal Israeli settlers, as well as Israeli citizens, has not helped the struggle for freedom and justice, but has only perpetuated and deepened the cycle of violence that the illegal occupation thrives upon.

[Free Palestine]

Originally posted by Intifada
The murder of illegal settlers will not and has not furthered the Palestinian cause, and has only allowed the Israelis to continue to legitimise their terrorist actions in Occupied Palestine.

And you think if there wasn't violent resistance Sharon wouldn't just invent a new justification for their colonizing? So we should keep the people pacified so Israel can continue brutalizing the occupied territories?

[dso79]

By all means, the Palestinians have the right to resist, but the targeting of illegal Israeli settlers, as well as Israeli citizens, has not helped the struggle for freedom and justice, but has only perpetuated and deepened the cycle of violence that the illegal occupation thrives upon.

That’s not true; armed resistance can be effective. I believe that attacks against settlers and settlements in the Gaza Strip played an important role in the Israeli government’s decision to withdraw from Gaza. Besides, I don’t think there’s an alternative. Like I said, peaceful means don’t work.

[Intifada]

Indeed.

You are both right.

[tiger]

Originally posted by Atlas Swallowed+Oct 20 2005, 04:54 PM--> (Atlas Swallowed @ Oct 20 2005, 04:54 PM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2005, 07:51 AM

Originally posted by Atlas [email protected] 19 2005, 07:34 PM

[email protected] 19 2005, 11:01 AM
Sign it, yeah that will help. Perhaps you should think about "Hamas & Co" that kills innocent people in Israel. Maybe then they will stop "occupy"...
Hamas was and probably still funded by the Israeli government.

http://www.upi.com/inc/iew.php?storyID=18062002-051845-8272r

Governments have a habit of making their own eniemies to push through their twisted agendas. AlCIAeda is a good example.

The IDF kills alot innocents. They are just terrorists with a uniform.
Dumbass! Should Hamas be funded by the Israeli goverment? Bullshit.

Fuck you.
Who said that Hamas "should" be funded by the Israeli government. I said they were and probably still are. Thier actions seem to justify the Israeli hawks agenda. If they were really serving the Palestinians they would be killing those in power instead of powerless civillians. Thankyou for the insults, if you do not agree with me fine, prove me wrong. I would be posting on Free Republic if I wanted to deal with that crap. [/b]
"Should" is wrong, Swedish is my first language...

I can't prove you wrong; sorry, but I don't THINK that they (Hamas) are still founded by Israel...


That picture does not answer anything... I don't even see the star....

[Intifada]

"Should" is wrong, Swedish is my first language...

I can't prove you wrong; sorry, but I don't THINK that they (Hamas) are still founded by Israel...


That picture does not answer anything... I don't even see the star....

Read this article:

Hamas and Israel (http://www.upi.com/inc/view.php?StoryID=18062002-051845-8272r)

That Israel funded Hamas in order to undermine the PLO is a fact.

[tiger]

"Israel and Hamas may currently be locked in deadly combat, but, according to several current and former U.S. intelligence officials, beginning in the late 1970s, Tel Aviv gave direct and indirect financial aid to Hamas over a period of years."

I did not know that. However, they are not aided anymore.

[Intifada]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2005, 02:09 PM
"Israel and Hamas may currently be locked in deadly combat, but, according to several current and former U.S. intelligence officials, beginning in the late 1970s, Tel Aviv gave direct and indirect financial aid to Hamas over a period of years."

I did not know that. However, they are not aided anymore.
Nobody, except Atlas Swallowed, stated that Israel may still be funding Hamas.

[Free Palestine]

I wouldn't be surprised that were so. Israels strategy; and believe me, they have a strategy and it's been working perfectly for years already. Kill and humiliate as many Palestinians, leaders or not, to provoke acts of reprisal so they have an excuse to conquer more land than they already illegaly occupy.

[Atlas Swallowed]

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/fakealqaeda.html

Here is a page with some interesting links of examples of the Israeli government useing deception to make thier enemies look evil. They have a long history of this. The Lavon affair and the sinking of the USS cole are a couple of older examples.


"By way of deception thou shalt wage war"

[danielfolsom]

Well, i'll add contreversy cause this is sounding like the bush cabnit. Personally (i'm throwing this out there with no hopes of it being achieved) , i think that Israel and Palestine should try to become one state. I mean, would that be so amazingly difficult? Secondly I don't think Israel should be supported. Palestine is trying to get their land back, so they have somewhere besides the slums of the gaza strip and west bank to live, and Israel is saying we want it for ourselves. Now saying that, i don't think Palestine should be supported because both it and israel are commiting horrific actions against eachother, killing children men and women that are civilians. So my resolution is, keep are big noses out of it, its like a civil war, both say "MY LAND, NO MY LAND!"

[southernmissfan]

Children killed:

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/images/children.gif

118 Israeli children (http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/children.html#source) have been killed by Palestinians and 680 Palestinian children (http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/children.html#source) have been killed by Israelis since September 29, 2000.
For every 1 Israeli child that has died, 5.76 Palestinian children died.
1:5.76

Children Killed Reported, by NBC/ABC/CBS:

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/images/net-fig15.gifhttp://www.ifamericansknew.org/images/net-fig16.gif
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/images/net-fig17.gif

In 2004, ABC, CBS, and NBC news reporting on Palestinian children’s deaths followed virtually the same line as Israeli children’s deaths, in stark contradiction to the reality, in which Palestinian children were being killed at a rate 22 times greater than Israeli children.

Children Killed Reported, by NY Times:

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/images/nyt-fig10.gif

The New York Times reported the death rates of Israeli and Palestinian children almost identically despite the fact that almost five times more Palestinian children were actually being killed.

Children Killed Reported, by SF Chronicle:

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/images/chron-fig6.gif

The San Francisco Chronicle reported 150% of Israeli children’s deaths and only 5% of Palestinian children’s deaths in headlines and/or lead paragraphs.

Media Bias: New York Times (http://www.ifamericansknew.org/media/nyt-report.html)

Media Bias: Television (http://www.ifamericansknew.org/media/net-report.html)

Inequalities in Water Usage (http://www.palestinemonitor.org/new_web/factsheet_water.htm)

Poverty in the Palestinian Territories (http://www.palestinemonitor.org/new_web/factsheet_poverty.htm)

http://www.palestinecampaign.org/
http://www.palestinemonitor.org
http://www.electronicintifada.org/
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/

[southernmissfan]

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/images/deaths_chart.gifhttp://www.ifamericansknew.org/images/injuries_chart.gif
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/images/usaid_chart_small.gifhttp://www.ifamericansknew.org/images/un_res_chart.gif
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/images/prisoners_chart.gifhttp://www.ifamericansknew.org/images/homes_chart.gif
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/images/econ_chart.gifhttp://www.ifamericansknew.org/images/settlements_chart.gif

[tiger]

yes, they talk for themselves...

[Phalanx]

Originally posted by Free Palestine+Oct 20 2005, 09:48 PM--> (Free Palestine @ Oct 20 2005, 09:48 PM)
Intifada
The murder of illegal settlers will not and has not furthered the Palestinian cause, and has only allowed the Israelis to continue to legitimise their terrorist actions in Occupied Palestine.

And you think if there wasn't violent resistance Sharon wouldn't just invent a new justification for their colonizing? So we should keep the people pacified so Israel can continue brutalizing the occupied territories? [/b]
So this justifies the killing of innocents? Many hilltop youth are terrible, yes, but the chances of a random settler child being one is very small. Attacks on the civilian population are not justified. How many settler children decide to go move to the West Bank? I haven't heard of too many families where the children make the decisions.

How would brutalizing the Israeli population add to your cause? Wouldn't it just make a bigger mess of the situation, with more artillery and bombs poured into the region? The Israelis did a massive clampdown on Palestinian areas after the attacks, I don't think that's 'furthering the cause'.