Why affirmative action is good

[Hampton]

CHICAGO -- It helps to have a white-sounding first name when looking for work, a new study has found.

Résumés with white-sounding first names elicited 50 percent more responses than ones with black-sounding names, according to a study by professors at the University of Chicago Graduate School of Business and the Massachusetts Institute of Technology

http://www.nj.com/news/ledger/index.ssf?/b...14699315360.xml (http://www.nj.com/news/ledger/index.ssf?/base/news-6/1042614699315360.xml)

[Larissa]

Pretty sad news, really.

I have worked for a Company whose Human Resources policies clearly stated that they had to have in their Board of Directors "a black person, a woman, a jewish and an asian" so no one could discriminate the company for being racist. In fact, they were the most racist ppl I ever met.


(Edited by Larissa at 2:48 pm on Jan. 15, 2003)

[Larissa]

By the way, this is a great site against racism

http://www.racism.org.za/index.html

[Rob]

Well there's no denying that we've still got a lot of problems with racism in this country. I'm not sure that quotas are the way to fix it though.

[PlasticJesus]

Affirmative Action is an example of racism in the United States.

(Edited by PlasticJesus at 5:43 am on Jan. 16, 2003)

[realismoverutopia]

I would like to say that it makes me sick how people today use racism as some sort of political crutch. I don't doubt that racism is an issue. Infact I have probably seen more racism than many of you, but the fact is this: racism is not simply something commited by white Americans. It is visible in many forms. Such as segregation. As much as we would like to believe otherwise segregation in America today is just as bad if not worse than in the 50's. This may be seen even on television. I turn on the tv only to see some comedian on BET (Black Entertainment Television) rant about how stupid white people are, or how the white man has ruined their life, but I guaruntee you that if there were even a station known as White Entertainment TV or even Red Entertainment TV it would no longer be a laughing matter. It would cause uprisings all across the nation.
In my opinion the idea of Affirmitive Action within the US would only strengthen the chains of segregation that bind us apart.
Inorder for us to become an equal nation we must educate ourselves and rise against the prejudiced issues that haunt us at every turn. We have to find loopholes in the system rather than rely on a law (crutch) to get us through the hard times. Rise above these problems no matter how difficult it may seem. I guaruntee you there will always be a way.
-Alex

[Moskitto]

quotas aren't the right way to go because often they are set at levels where they're just not that many minority groups proportionally in the whole country and they don't take into account different areas where different proportions of different groups live. Then finally they don't take into account the different distributions of skills, fine, saying that 5% of toxicologists must be black is all fine, but if only 1% of people qualified to be a toxicologist are black then 80% of people with a toxicology degree won't be able to get a job. The only way to do it would be survey every area in the country, every profession to find out the right quota to set for every business, right down to a handmade candlestick maker in a village of 8 people in the middle of wisconsin.

There shouldn't need to be affermative action.

[Valkyrie]

Until there is no more racial and gender biases, there HAS to be affirmative action. Yeah, it is too bad that there is a law on the books to ensure that minorities have equal opportuntity in jobs and education and that without it, there would not be... However, take that away at this point in time and the class divide will be far greater to bridge than it is now...convalsing us back to the status quo of a century ago.. Who wants that?


it's interesting to note that the landmark Civil Rights law of 1964, Title VII, was a huge watershed victory for women too, white women also. When Congress was hashing out the terms for this legislation that was to read that employer's were prohibited to discriminate in employment on the basis of race, color. religion and national origin, there was still nothing in the laws to protect women in general.. white women in particular, and women insisted at that time that the word "sex" be included in this new law that was to be enacted.

Women have always been last, ---last to get the vote even, 66 years behind Black Suffrage.
And Minority Women are at the very end of the line.

Affirmative Action is as much for women as much as it is for race and ethnicity.

http://aad.english.ucsb.edu/

[PlasticJesus]

I detest Affirmative Action because I detest Racism. One is not the solution to the other, but rather one is the form of the other. Affirmative Action manages to commit multiple crimes against humanity. It forces hard-working individuals out of their jobs to be replaced by someone else who is inadequate, for the sake of race. It gives important jobs and scholarships to unworthy people instead of those who are deserving, for the sake of race. It denies the very principles of equalities, ignores the individual, upholds iniquity; turns a blind eye to the nature of the human being -- it speaks of diversity as though the word only means the color of one's skin; it does not accept the fact that every living, breathing human is a conscious being, each with their own set of skills and fields of knowledge, each with their own degrees of efficiency in those areas. It is for this reason, that Affirmative Action is unfair and an injustice -- a calamity on the globe of freedom -- that I detest Affirmative Action.

[Hampton]

BET is owned by Viacom so you know that they will never have anything that is over the top. I mean the jokes on there are really bad anyway, but at least you won't see Amos and Andy or people dressed up in white face dancing bad and drinking milk.

Besides don't white people have PAX if they want to have have some good Christian fun?

[ratm545]

affirmitive action is terrible.

let's set up a scenario, the area is populated 90% white, 5% black, and the other 5% different minorities. Company 'x' is hiring 20 people, of all the applicants the top 20 turn out to be white. the last three white applicants get fucked over cause they need a black person at their company and a jew and whatever else? that's racism for ya

[Valkyrie]

Set up this scenario: a company has to fill 20 positions. The top 20 of the applicants make-up is 5 white, 5 black, 5 asian, and 5 women the company is owned by a racist sexist white man. 5 of the top white applicants are hired.. and 15 other white men not as skilled as the rest of the 15 top applicants who are denied employment

This would happen ALL the time without Affirmative Action.

I detest racism too, but it's not going to go away by erasing Affirmative Action -- in fact it will increase.




(Edited by Paris at 1:42 am on Jan. 17, 2003)

[ratm545]

it can go either way, anyone can get fucked through affirmitive action. the only way to solve it is to erase racism........

[realismoverutopia]

First of all, how dare you stereotype white people as Christian. This is exactly the kind of prejudices I spoke of in my last post. I for one am half white and half American Indian, and I can guaruntee you that none of me is part of the oppressive christian society that runs stations such as PAX. I cannot even begin to express the amount of offense that I take towards your comments. How can anyone ever hope to have an equal non-discriminatory state with judgemental people such as yourself prancing around?
Second: the period in time that you are refering to during which white men dressed as blacks for cheap laughs is known as the pre-berlesque era in entertainment. this time period took place almost a century ago. If I were to form my opinions based on the cultural attrocities of 100 years ago my views may be slightly different than they are. But I have always felt that inorder for a society to evolve its people must not focus on the problems of the past.
If you ever feel it neccessary to make your opinion know to any of the political community again then I suggest you make sure that it is backed by valid and powerful evidence.

[Hampton]

Part of the problem is that you cannot put the problems of the past and leave them there because they are the basis in which judgments and opinions are made today and they have a heavy influence.

Being half white and half black in America, people don't see the white half which forces most people to cross the street when I walk or to get pulled over more in the great state of New Jersey if some cop wants to hassle me. Wasn't it Karl Marx who said that "the tradition of all the dead generations weighs like a nightmare on the brain of the living"?

And I could just as easily say that when you stated that if their were a WET or a RET that there would be riots, why riots? Because black people riot? Because when an injustice occurs in this country that effects black people we destroy our communities and businesses?

(I don't really believe this, it's a what if situation)

[Umoja]

Affirmative action levels the playing field to fight sexism, racism and other biases. To say it is racist is completely wrong, because to be racist you need to have power. It's to late for me to post more.

[Doshka]

your right realismoverutopia, and all of you...here in jordan racism is so obviouse its unreal...not against blacks at all because we are dark and we have many people from sudan and morroco and other african countrys and they are a part of us, but against the arabs themselves...when a foriegner comes here he is treated like a prince...they act like the foreingers are the best people in the world...no offence to any of you at all but if the arab would go to the same place they treat them like trash..its not right no on is better than anyone else and it is a form of predjudice...also if you are related to the king (which many people here are since the last one had so many fucking wives) you are something holy...its sick...i go to a private school where MANY of the kids are princes and princesses...theyre nice..i mean theyre humn..but the teachers treat them better than they treat the rest of the students...its disgusting

[Exploited Class]

I don't care if it is "reverse racism", a term made up by the crying white upperclass society to inject more racism than they already have in the country (Read Howard Zinn to see how they used racism that didn't really exist for control purposes).

The whole thing is this, we have and still continue to have second class citizens in America. Blacks and Females equally have struggled to just survive. Just 40 short years ago blacks couldn't even vote, it wasn't all that long ago folks. Its been a constant uphill battle for both, even with the assistance of affirmative action.

We had a time period where there were blacks with doctorates working as janitors, fry cooks and garbage men. In fact for most citizens of the country if a black man was seen doing something other than manual labor it was a freak of nature. Women could be anything they wanted to be of course so long as that was a nurse, a sectretary or a mom. You could do everything you wanted, get any degree you could obtain and still not get hired. Women still are underpaid in comparisson to men.

Yes we are all equal but we are not yet treated as equals. To erase these thousands of years of bigotry and racism we needed to put these 2nd class citizens in positions that people would see. When you walked into a bank it wasn't just white men, your doctor wasn't just a white man. You have to submerge the whole society into seeing people of color and gender everywhere, to brainwash them and unteach them of racism and bigotry.

You have to put these people in higher positions so those behind them know that it is possible. Sure a few eggs are going to get broken, a couple of people might not get a job they were qualified for, but it is for the better good of all society. We in the now have to bear through this to wash it out. It isn't going to be no 40 years, it is going to take generations and generations.

And really it isn't reversed racism, racism is a deliberate choice you make, mandating you have a certain percentage doesn't make you a racists, it isn't racism till you have to meet those quotas and then chose to not go over them. How many companies are not over a quota?

it can go either way, anyone can get fucked through affirmitive action. the only way to solve it is to erase racism........

Well you know what, that is what we are trying to do, erase racism. Put enough minorities into society out in the open doing what everybody else is and the lessons of racism are a lot harder to learn. Its a lot easier to digest racism and bigotry when there isn't those faces in your face everyday.

Suck it up, I will, with the knowledge that the sacrifices we make now, small sacrifices here and there, will lead to a better tomorrow, maybe 100 years from now enough generations will pass when affirmative action will be ooooh'd and aaaahh'd at in history books, because racism will make such utter nonsense to those people that they can't understand why we had to do it.

[El Tejon]

I thought it was great when I found out it was my name ironically that was keeping me out of the work place. My name is "Ebony" and I guess the fact I have more Irish than black may fool them at the interview but my name gets the door shut in my face before I can even get that far. One more way they can keep me out of work, poor and without healthcare

[workingpoor]

Quote: from exploitedclass on 4:11 am on Jan. 18, 2003
I don't care if it is "reverse racism", a term made up by the crying white upperclass society to inject more racism than they already have in the country .


I can tell you first hand that reverse discrimination does exists. I am the basic white, middle class, two parent family, not an extraordinary athlete or student and i subscribed to no special religious or sexual orientation. (the only thing i forgot to tell the is that i was a socialist pig) But i was told very bluntly by countless college counselors that there was nothing to set me apart statistically from other applicants. Basically i was just another cracker in the bowl.

[workingpoor]

Quote: from exploitedclass on 4:11 am on Jan. 18, 2003
I don't care if it is "reverse racism", a term made up by the crying white upperclass society to inject more racism than they already have in the country .


I can tell you first hand that reverse discrimination does exists. I am the basic white, middle class, two parent family, not an extraordinary athlete or student and i subscribed to no special religious or sexual orientation. (the only thing i forgot to tell the is that i was a socialist pig) But i was told very bluntly by countless college counselors that there was nothing to set me apart statistically from other applicants. Basically i was just another cracker in the bowl.

[Bored of Education]

Affirmative Action is fucking stupid. It's crippling people of different races into thinking they cannot get jobs for themselves without help from the government. Okay, believe it or not there are still racists out there, but really now. Affirmative Action isn't "backwards racism" or whatever, but it's definately counterintuitive.

"You people can't get a job on your own.. so we're forcing companies to hire you. REJOICE NOW OR DIE"

[Hampton]

Hey workingpoor, your signature is by Dom Helder Camara, an archbishop from Brazil.

[Exploited Class]

Quote: from workingpoor on 12:15 am on Jan. 20, 2003

I can tell you first hand that reverse discrimination does exists. I am the basic white, middle class, two parent family, not an extraordinary athlete or student and i subscribed to no special religious or sexual orientation. (the only thing i forgot to tell the is that i was a socialist pig) But i was told very bluntly by countless college counselors that there was nothing to set me apart statistically from other applicants. Basically i was just another cracker in the bowl.


That is the biggest bullshit response I have seen on this board in some time. The problem wasn't because you were white, you didn't get into a college because you failed to exceed in school to set yourself apart from others by not getting excllent grades. The 5 to7% of minorities getting into college wasn't what you were competing with, it was the 95% of white people you failed to out do. Unless affirmative action out of nowhere said that 50% of the student body had to be minorities.

For this capitalist society you have to have excellent grades to get into a college straight from High School, go to a 2 year community college which is open to everybody and has no requirements.

If you want to get mad, get mad at the system that doesn't make enough colleges for everybody to get in, that charges so much for education, that requires education for livable wage jobs. The rich set that up.

There is only one group of minorities that anybody here should feel is responsible for this situation and behind the problems that require affirmative action. The wealthy 1 to 3% super wealthy that control it all. That is the minority group we should be bashing, they designed this system, not us, not any other group.

[truthaddict11]

what about using affirmative action in schools? in my county we have "choice" now so starting next year the schools will probally be very segregated. with schools in the "north" being filled with mainly white students. and those in the "southern" part of the county black.

[Bored of Education]

Yes workingpoor, you need only to blame how the educational system is worked. You didn't excel passed everyone else, that's why you didn't get into most colleges. It has nothing to do with Affirmative Action really.

[workingpoor]

it doesn't matter if i were a straight A student or a B student like i was they are both a dime a dozen. In too many cases it isn't the grades anymore it is what you add to the statistics.

[Umoja]

Well, if the "statistics" that are added are just as qualified, doesn't that make the observers own perspective important?

[geneticfreak]

Although I can see where some people would think that affirmative action is positive to the advancement of society, but whichever way you look at it, its basis is to make racial quotas which one person is treated high than another person. For someone to have an advantage, someone else has to have a disadvantage. How are we ever supposed to create an equal society with national policies such as this.
Anyway, the entire point of affirmative action is to place minorities into positions traditionally help by white men and to eventually cause them to move up in the social-economic level, right? Well wrong.
If the United States of America wanted minorities to suceed, the government would need to do one thing. Provide a high standard of public education. Minorities are traditionally disadvantaged through having shitty jobs, why? It's because many of them have shitty educations.
Why hasn't the government improved educational systems in minority communities? Because they WANT to keep minorities down. This is how it has all been set up by the 'rich and powerful' in this country. They like how many minorities can work for mininum wage for all their lives and how much manual labor they do. They don't want a minority getting educated and moving up. They want to keep the status quo, and affirmative action is just a little smoke up the ass to keep people from realizing this. They are afraid to lose their reigns of power, and they planned it out so well so they won't.
So really, if you want to help minorities out, start out with k-12 education, which is the most important. Affirmative action is just a load a bullshit that gives unqualified people positions they don't deserve. How would you like it if you knew that the only reason you have a job/spot in a university is because of your race? That you are there because of some government quota. Wouldn't feel too good would it.


(Edited by geneticfreak at 2:07 am on Jan. 21, 2003)

[Umoja]

Affirmative Action is not about Quotas, it's about leveling the playing field for equally qualified peoples of all races, but if all the people are equally qualified, and some people who look different are getting hired, doesn't the perception of the observer say something?

Besides that, the federal government has little control over public education, which would explain why many inner city schools are heavily underfunded.

[workingpoor]

i understand what people are saying just the education system fucking sucks and bother the hell out of me

help me understand this one

in the grading scale used by most schools in the US the letter grade "C" is said to be average or mean grade. However that is not the acceptable average grade high B's and A's are exceptable.

In fact in the state of Ohio state run univeristies it is required to have a 3.0 (a B average) for acceptance if not higher. In fact the ohio state university a 3.5 GPA is required. keep in midn these are the public unitversities set forth by the state for the masses

Therefore isn't the system setting itself up for unrealistic goals and failure. and how do you fix it

[Umoja]

Technically the point of High School is to get a High School diploma, not to go to college.

[workingpoor]

a high school education will not get you a job in the capitalist world

[Weatherman]

The real problem is affirmitive action is addressing the wrong problem. Instead of helping poor people have a chance and get off their feet, it addresses the poor minorities. Why make it a rascist issue? Some minorities are at a disadvantage due to their income, so they live in shitty neighbor hoods with shitty education. Thus the same thing happens with the next generation. So thats why they started to use affirmitive action. Except a lot of whites are poor too, and at a disadvantage; So affirmitive action should have nothing to do with race. It should exist to increase equality and raise the standard living of the poor. A communist country would never have this problem.

[Valkyrie]

Affirmative Action was enacted specifically so an employer or school even a country club's membership could not discriminate against race, religion, gender or ethnicity.

Its motivated to break down the lines of segregation and patriarchy and religious biases that is so unconstitutional in its nature and to create some equality based on integration and inclusion as well as merit.

You can be sure that anyone with lesser than required grade averages is not going to get into college or be able to sustain it, no matter what the race, gender, or ethnicity..

On the other hand, Im sure many educated, middle-class blacks, women jews and hispanics have been passed over for being those very reasons alone.

The HIstory of Affirmative Action:

www.inmotionmagazine.com/aahist.html



(Edited by Paris at 11:26 pm on Jan. 21, 2003)

[Exploited Class]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor...egation_study_2 (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&cid=519&ncid=519&e=7&u=/ap/20030121/ap_on_re_us/segregation_study_2)

With this happening, segergation taking place again, and the link to the story of people with black names not getting called back from resumes. I'd say affirmative action currently for the next few gnerations is the only way to go.

[Exploited Class]

Quote: from Paris on 11:08 pm on Jan. 21, 2003
Affirmative Action was enacted specifically so an employer or school even a country club's membership could not discriminate against race, religion, gender or ethnicity.

Its motivated to break down the lines of segregation and patriarchy and religious biases that is so unconstitutional in its nature and to create some equality based on integration and inclusion as well as merit.


Did you write that last paragraph or was it copy and pasted? Because that is perfectly worded! That is what I have been trying to say but not as elequantly as that one sentence right there.

[BasementAddix]

Quote: from workingpoor on 9:47 pm on Jan. 21, 2003
a high school education will not get you a job in the capitalist world



you obviously dont understand the point to capitalism...its not to be lazy....capitalism has to do with competition....not just getting by with a high school diploma...you get what you put into things...

[Rastafari]

Hey Larissa, out of curiosity, what company did you work for? I know all big capitalist corporations do something similar but it would be interesting to know. Thanks