Christian Fascism

[truthaddict11]

I have heard of this theory that fundalmentalists like Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson support called Reconstuctionism or Kingdom of Dominion. They believe that Jesus wont come back until a worldwide theocratic christian government based on Old Testament law is in place. Which calls for executions for Gay people, balsphemy, "witchcraft", women who get abortions and the abortion doctors, some also want executions for rowdy kids. Here is a link to one site on it. This shows how intolerant these relegious fundalmentalists are. It shows that they are truly anti-semites too.

http://www.sullivan-county.com/nf0/fundienazi


(Edited by truthaddict11 at 10:10 pm on Jan. 13, 2003)


(Edited by truthaddict11 at 10:12 pm on Jan. 13, 2003)

[Beccie]

I hate fundamentalism. It gives Christianity a bad name; it is not what true Christianity is about.

[antieverything]

I would like to say "fuck those screwballs" except for the fact that they are so damn powerful. Certainly a force to be reckoned with.

[truthaddict11]

Here is a site that makes my blood boil (http://www.godhatesfags.com)

[RedFW]

I think as far fetched as it sounds I have no trouble believing it...since Bush has been in office there have been several really important and seemingly harmless adjustments to certain laws regarding abortion and a woman's right to have one.

For example: Alabama's Informed Consent Law SB 333, which requires women who have decided to have an abortion to wait 24 hours and discuss other "options", the "risks" associated with abortion and "information" about fetal development. Which to me seems like they have 24 hours to talk a woman who has already decided to have an abortion to make her feel guilty and scare her.

These bills have all already been passed by the House: the Unborn Victims of Violence Act, which attempts to give a fetus personhood; the Child Custody Protection Act, which makes it illegal to transport a minor to another state for an abortion to avoid parental notification laws; and the Abortion Non-Discrimination Act, which allow health care providers to refuse to perform abortions, offer abortion training or provide medically accurate information about abortions and still receive federal funding.

The following infamous quote by Jerry Falwell:

I really believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People for the American Way -- all of them who have tried to secularize America -- I point the finger in their face and say, "You helped this happen[9/11]."

[Fires of History]

Quote: from Commie01 on 3:20 am on Jan. 14, 2003
I hate fundamentalism. It gives Christianity a bad name


Religion gives Christianity a bad name most of all.

Truthaddict,

I don't know where to begin, but I can assure you that Southern Christian Fundamentalists are anti-semites. Although I don't know anything about the Kingdom of Dominion, I know that they would love to see theocracy for the US.

[elisabeth]

This sounds awful...beurrrrkkk!!!!Do they want to create a religious state with radical Christianism and all that?!! Hm...I hope it won't come. But I also think that there are too many people against it and they won't have any success outside America.

[TXsocialist]

Christian fascism is just like nay form of fascism, the only thing that makes fascist sympathizers different from Hitler or Franco is (1) They're not in power(well...) and (2) The deny ties with fascism. They replace this loyalty to fascism with the veil of religion, all the while trying for the same goals...

BUT, that's not the type of fascism we will deal with in america: It'll be more along the lines of Terrorism scare tactics, here, and 20 years from now - like 1984.

[Umoja]

And it's a lie anyway, because the Apocalypse will only come when people don't expect it, I believe, and most people have tottally turned away from God, or something like that. It eludes to that in the book fo Revelations, not that I'm saying anyone here will burn in Hell, because to me, Hell is just staying dead.

I just looked at God Hates Fags, ironically they are violently anti-American.

(Edited by Umoja at 9:37 pm on Jan. 14, 2003)

[El Brujo]

Typical right-wing hypocrites. They hate Jews but guess what Jesus Was?... In my opinion, they should be shot (as well as any other form of supremacist).

[Guardia Bolivariano]

I think Christian Fascism is just another form of using the church(a organized system) that has power over people for personal in this case political needs.Power corrupts the mind in any case.

[Panamarisen]

Christian Fascism = Franco´s. Personally, maybe the worst of fascisms, because these -so called- "christians", ain´t got NOTHING to do with Christianism, ain´t got NOTHING to do with caring for the other one, ain´t got NOTHING to do with NOTHING, except lack of justice, thieving the poor, making the rich ones richer, making the oppressed much more oppressed for GENERATIONS ON...

Just FUCK THEM!!!


HASTA LA VICTORIA SIEMPRE!

[sypher]

HA HA HA HE HO GAH HA HA! (There I think that was redundant enough)

I am so glad I turned my back on that religion.

[redstar2000]

Had Hitler and the 3rd Reich never existed, the "clerical fascist" countries (Austria before 1938, Poland, Croatia, Hungary, Roumania, and, of course Italy and Spain) would be the present-day "benchmark" of atrocious regimes guilty of ethnic cleansing, mass murder, horrible repression and exploitation of workers, etc.

And all of them Catholic! The Vatican was involved in ALL of them right up to its eyebrows.

America's christian fundamentalists and Iran's ayatollahs are latecomers; the Catholic Opus Dei was building fascism in the mid-1930s...they even tried hard to build up an alliance with Hitler.

Whenever I talk about the REACTIONARY social role of religion on this board, I always catch a certain amount of flack from some folks who maintain that these bastards are not "real" christians or don't represent "true" religion.

Nevertheless, I continue to insist: want religion? THIS is what you will get! :angry:

[antieverything]

And how do you seperate religious fanatacism from other forms of fanatacism?

I direct you to the social gospel and South American Liberation Theology...of course the Vatican mostly ignored these issues but that simply shows that centeralized power corrupts, not that religion is evil.

[Umoja]

Yeah, centralization of power seems to be the universal problem in most human associations.

[Fires of History]

Antieverything,

But the problem is that religion IS centralized power.

Redstar,

Couldn't agree more. I always run into the same apologists.

But if any religion on this planet was going to blossom into something more than a controlling, destructive force, it would have done so by now. Therefore, IT'S NEVER GOING TO. None of them.

[antieverything]

I repeat the question: how do you distinguish religions fanatacism from other forms of fanatacism?

For every evil you point out to condemn Christianity, I can point to something positive that Christianity has done. Religion is NOT centralized power...many, many christian churches are completely independant of any outside authority. Religion has always been part of humanity and it has always been used for both good and evil...religion is a fire, people decide whether they will use the fire to warm or to destroy. How can you say that all religion is destructive. Again, look at the social gospel and liberation theology movements. This summer I am travelling to Chiapas with the Christian Peacemaker Teams to mediate between soldiers and peasants. What are you doing this summer?

[redstar2000]

a/e, don't DO it! That is, don't go to Mexico to "mediate" between soldiers and peasants. Such "mediation" is simply a figleaf to cover up what is really happening there.

There is NO question of "mediation" between murderers (soldiers) and their victims (peasants).

Sorry to sound so "fanatical", but there you are.

------------------------------------

a/e, you and other defenders of religion have a number of standard arguments you fall back on. One of them is the question of non-religious fanaticism...as if that somehow "excuses" religious fanaticism.

Actually, the examples of secular fanaticism are quite rare...and usually turn out to have SOME kind of rational basis.

Hitler and the Nazis, for example, REALLY BELIEVED in the concept of "racial purity", really WERE convinced that the Jews were a "degenerate race" that threatened the Ayran "race", really did believe that the removal or extermination of the Jews was an urgent imperative to "save Germany". Since we KNOW the premise was false, it all looks like insane fanaticism to us...but to them it was entirely rational and even "scientific". Had the Nazis actually won World War II, they would have finished murdering all the Jews and then stopped.

You see the difference: even the WORST secular fanaticists "know when to quit", have some kind of rationale about when a goal is achieved.

Or take the "crimes of Stalin": whatever the number of Stalin's victims and however horribly he behaved, the fact is the purges did stop (in 1939). Once the rational goal of collectivization of agriculture had been reached, once the army and the party had been purged of "unreliable" elements, the killing stopped.

The difference between secular fanatics and religious fanatics is that secular fanaticism is limited by some kind of "rational" goal (even if it looks crazy to us). Even the lunatic Pol Pot didn't kill EVERYBODY.

Religion has no limits to its fanaticism except those imposed by the planet itself. ALL can be killed "for the greater glory of God" if the religious leader decrees it so.

Look in the Old Testament: "And God said KILL ALL THAT DWELL IN THE CITY AND THE CATTLE ALSO!"

No, a/e, you CANNOT cite a good act by religion that can match every evil act I can cite. An act of charity or mercy here and there does NOT make up for 5,000 years of barbaric slaughter, torture, rape, oppression, etc.

Granted even religion's "finest hour"--the abolitionist crusade in the U.S. to destroy slavery--it is STILL a fact that the vast majority of the clergy, EVEN in the North, was either pro-slavery or neutral. (The same was true, I'm sure, in England as well.)

I hardly need to add that in the course of the industrial revolution and the rise of capitalism, religion defended the newly-minted horrors of the early factories as just "God's will" at work.

I contend that the truly faithful believer who is ALSO a genuine humanitarian is as rare as the truly benevolent BOSS (yes, they do exist...their numbers are quite small). Their existence no more "justifies" religion than an occasional benevolent boss or considerate landlord justifies capitalism.

:cool:

[antieverything]

Religion is a part of the social structure and as such is used (as all social structures are) as a tool to control the masses. When believers look deeper into their own religions and ignore what is said by the power structures they discover the theology of liberation.

These long ages of pestilence induced by religion you talk of: think about it, were these atrocities caused by religion or was religion used as a tool by the rulers to justify the atrocities?

When capital is in the hands of the ruling elite it is used for evil but when it is in the hands of the people it is used for good...

About CPT, what we do is actually stand as witnesses in order to protect the oppressed. Don't think that we look at both parties in the issue as simply having a dispute. There is no question who is wrong and how wrong they are. We do the same thing in Palestine: we stand as witnesses to stop violence against Palestinians. The settlers are approaches as exactly what they are: Nazis.

[redstar2000]

The opposition to Hugo Chavez and the Bolivarian Revolution is getting desperate. So what do they do?

According to the BBC News site, they've called for a huge demonstration "FOR JESUS AND MARY".

What a surprise! :cool:

[antieverything]

Who is behind these things? The ruling class and their willing servants? I think so. Are these things a result of religion or merely being justified by religion?

[redstar2000]

"Are these things a result of religion or merely being justified by religion?"

Does it matter?

That is, if the idea originated with the Archbishop of Caracas or with some secular coup-plotter...the OUTCOME is identical--Christianity as an ideological tool of counter-revolution.

I'm beginning to think Marx was too "soft" on religion. In Venezuela, religion is not merely the "opiate" of the masses...it is their ENEMY.

:cool:

[antieverything]

If there is one thing that I find as irritating as a dogmatic right-winger it's a dogmatic left-winger.

You simply refuse to acknowledge the fact that religion is not simply a tool in the hands of the ruling class. It has not only been used as a counter-revolutionary tool but also as a revolutionary tool. In every popular revolution in the Americas, there have been priests fighting alongside the peasants.

[Moskitto]

All you people saying Religion is evil look at the crusades etc are argueing like cappies who say communism is evil look at the USSR etc

If my brother was a pacafist and i went around killing people in the name of my brother because he was murdered, does that make what my brother said in his life evil?

What about the Sandinistas in Nicaragua, were they not catholics? What about Maximillian Kolbe at Auscwitz, wasn't he a catholic? What about Raul Castro, isn't he a catholic? What about the poem first they came for the communists..., was it not written by a protestant bishop? What about the Levellers? Wat Tyler's rebellion? All led by Priests, What about Priests who give sermons encouraging people to support Jubilee 2000, Carnival against Capitalism? Discussing the wrongs of American foreign policy? What about Ghandi, the socialist who believed in the importance of the individual and changed the caste system in India? What about those people who decided to live in the middle of the desert on a mountainside, hundreds of miles away from anyone else, not living the capitalist life? What about the heart in a heartless world? I'm sure you're not saying that all these people are working for the ruling classes.

[antieverything]

What about Dietrich Bunhoffer (German names are hard to spell so I don't know...)?

The man led a plot to assassinate Hitler because he believed it was a greater evil to let him live than to kill him. He died in a concentration camp a few days before it was liberated.

[synthesis]

Does it matter?

The answer, my friend, is a most resounding YES!

There is a BIG difference between something that is purporting itself to be religious when it is in fact an excuse for an evil, and something that is done solely following some religious dogma.

A man driving his car into an abortion clinic is guilty of religious fanaticism.

A Catholic who kills a Jew banker for his money and then claims it was in the name of avenging Christ is guilty of personal greed - not religious fanaticism.

One can be pinned on religion - the other can be pinned solely on capitalism.

The ostensibly religious Fourth Crusade was merely an excuse with religious backdroppings for the Venetian merchant class to get the Crusaders to wage a war on Constantinople, their main trading allies.

It worked. Constantinople was crippled.

Carried out by religious fanatics - but inspired by capitalism. It was simply another act of the capitalists controlling the blindly religious to carry out their greed-inspired plans.

I hope you see my point, Redstar.

My father was both a socialist and a Liberal Quaker (http://www.selectsmart.com/RELIGION/LQ.html).

It is no contradiction.

[redstar2000]

"I contend that the truly faithful beiever who is ALSO a genuine humanitarian is a rare as the truly benevolent BOSS...Their existence no more justifies religion than an occasional benevolent boss or considerate landlord justifies capitalism" --that's me talking..on this thread...less than 36 hours ago.

You folks have SHORT memories.

To be sure, while the Pope and the Cardinals and the Archbishops and the Bishops and MOST of the priests were playing footsie with the Nazis, a small handful of priests resisted and were killed. And while nearly ALL of the Protestant clergy in the 3rd Reich conducted Sunday prayers for the victory of Fuhrer & Fatherland, a small handful resisted and were killed.

Adolph Hitler was, of course, raised Catholic...and his excommunication was somehow overlooked. (!)

Then there are the priests in Latin America...at least ONE of whom actually did take part in guerilla warfare (I think his name was Camilo Torres). So? How many are we talking about here? And how much did that affect the Cardinals and Archbishops and Bishops...each one in a splendid cathedral equal in value to a million times the average income of a South American peasant? (I'm guessing about that ratio...it could be a LOT higher.)

It IS true that prior to the 19th century, many uprisings took upon themselves a religious character...that was ALL they knew in those days. There was NO secular revolutionary tradition to draw on; so the rebels donned a religious mask to cover what was actually a sharp outbreak of open class struggle. That OFTEN happens in history--the leaders of the American and French Revolutions often borrowed rhetoric from the Roman Republic and even commissioned statues of themselves wearing togas. You CANNOT conclude from that phenomenon that if there had been NO religion, there would have been NO rebellion.

That is likewise the case in India. Had there been no Ghandi, there would STILL have been rebellion against British rule and it STILL would have won. The caste system, though abolished on paper, STILL exists...just as racism still exists in the U.S., no matter how many "civil rights" laws are adopted. And when India did become independent, Hindu and Muslim findamentalists AT ONCE fell to the cheerful and theologically-sanctioned task of murdering each other in HUGE numbers. They're STILL at it!

Dyermaker, you speak of the 4th Crusade as if it were exceptional; I disagree. I think vulgar economic motivations lie beneath MOST if not ALL religious crusades, violent or "peaceful". I would argue that beneath all the spiritual claptrap is NEARLY always a desire by one guy (group) to CON money out of another guy (group).

The Sandinistas? Surely we know now what a corrupt bastard Ortega turned out to be? The presence of a few priests in that movement certainly didn't help matters any.

Raul Castro is a believer? So THAT's who's responsible for inviting the fucking Pope to Cuba...giving comfort and encouragement to the enemies of the Cuban Revolution. Only thing I can say to that is: Fidel, retire your bother BEFORE you retire yourself!

DyerMaker, you say your father was both a socialist and a liberal Quaker. Well, good for him. Need I remind you that Richard Nixon was also raised Quaker...and saw "no contradiction" between his God and his imperial ambitions.

If this be "dogmatism", then make the most of it! :cool:

PS: I forgot. What about the "heart" in a heartless world? IT'S FAKE!

(Edited by redstar2000 at 7:47 pm on Jan. 17, 2003)