Ideas

[Gnosis]

We must let go of the old way.

We must abandon the old way.

We must be a new way.

We must not stop at creating a new way.

We must be the new way, without dependence on the old way.

We must not fight the old way, for our fight depends on the existence of the old way.

If we want Trust, we must be honest.

If we want Peace, we must trust each other.

If we want Love, we must love each other, and loving eachother is seeing Joy in each other.

Without honesty, there is not Trust.

Without Trust, there is not Peace.

Without peace, there is no Love.

And without Love, there is no Joy.

No honest, Peaceful, Loving Joy, that is.

And what is our new way?

What is the new life style?

We are at a time in history unlike any other.

We are to create an entire culture, an entire society, and an entire race of people from what appears at first to be nothing.

We must break away from the ways of the past.

We must take what we have learned and move on.

We must be better than them, we must be more honest, loving, peaceful, joyful, trusting than them.

For if we are violent, we have failed to bring change.

And if we are suspicious, or if we are not honest, then we have failed to bring change.

This is a call to all those who may hear.

Be silent with me on a day of our choosing.

For one day we must all step out of our boxes, join each other in a place of our choosing, be in silence with each other, allow our silence and our peace to over come the tyranny of the world as only it can.

Non-cooperation in the name of honesty.

I say this gathering take place at the nation capital.

No one will speak.

There will be no loud speaker.

There will be no slogans to unite or divide us.

No noise but that of our hearts beating simultaneously in our chests.

And the deafening rumble of our silence tearing down the walls of the White House like no earthly voice can ever achieve.

What do you say to that idea?

Come with your self, be yourself here and now, hold hands with the person next to you.

We will see what their reaction is.

Imagine one hundred thousand people standing outside the white house in complete silence.

[rioters bloc]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2005, 01:08 PM
Imagine one hundred thousand people standing outside the white house in complete silence.
that would be:
incredible
profound
compelling

[novemba]

fuck dat shit

MAKE SOME MOTHAFUCKIN NOISE!!!! hehehe


seriously though, that would be a sight

and on the post, i dont think we should trust or love the capitalist bourgeoisie

[violencia.Proletariat]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2005, 11:08 PM


Imagine one hundred thousand people standing outside the white house in complete silence.
meh id take the hundreds of thousands there in during the nixon admin when the force of people was crushing the walls around it

[anomaly]

Gnosis, those ideas are far too idealistic to be taken seriously. The idea that any 'revolutionary activiy' will occur in the USA anytime soon is incredibly naive, to be perfectly frank. The road to communism will be a bloody one; it will not be one of 'love' and 'peace'.

[drain.you]

Would be amazing to just stand in a mass of silent people infront of the White House. However, I live in England so can't really help you :P

[ComradeOm]

We must be better than them, we must be more honest, loving, peaceful, joyful, trusting than them.

For if we are violent, we have failed to bring change.
And then let's all dance around with flowers in our hair. I'm sure the capitalists will quake at the sound of our merriment. Revolution will not be pretty and, when it comes, its most likely going to be very bloody.

[Gnosis]

NO!

I say YOU ARE WRONG in response to any and all who say "REVOLUTION WILL BE OR IS BLOODY"

NO NO NO NO NO!!!!

No revolution is bloody!

KILLING AND SHEDDING BLOOD ARE NOT REVOLUTIONARY!

They are parts of war, not revolution.

War fought in the name of revolution is FALSE and any one who believes fighting is revolutionary is LACKING in PERSPECTIVE and should let go of the "revolutionary" title.

Kill if you will, shed human blood if you will, BATH IN THE BLOOD OF THE UNCONSCIOUS IF YOU WILL, you are not unnecessary in your actions, I do not disagree with your actions, I will not try to stop you from killing as it is not my will to stop you from killing.

But I cannot sit back and listen to you think yourself a revolutionary!

There is nothing NEW or LIFE CHANGING or EVOLVED about killing and war.

THROUGHOUT HISTORY, men and women have lost their lives in the name of ideology, suscribing to a "new" ideology does not make it any less traditional.

I AM SUGGESTING that we LOVE the people who threaten us.

It is more than evident to me that those "in control" are severely lacking love and trust, and though it might be easier and more fun to chop off their heads, it will be incredibly symbolic and evolved to open our arms to them, take their heads to our breast and say "Its okay, its all over now."

YES, I AM AN IDEALIST, AND I DO NOT CARE THAT YOU DISAGREE WITH MY DREAMS!

I will never stop knowing what truth I have found for I KNOW I AM RIGHT and that power is undefeatable.

I think we need a symbolic event to open our eyes and bring us out of the daily monotony of the every day capatalist life style.

I think "What would the news casters report?"

What would be broadcast on television?

What would any one say?

What if we were standing and sitting and showing the government our love and our trust right in front of their eyes where they cannot avoid us and the television was showing it to everyone else, and then all of a sudden, one voice begins to scream.

And then another voice joins in screaming, and then another until the entire crowd is screaming at the top of their ability and everyone is watching and everyone is screaming for as long and as hard and as emotionally charged as they can until all of our voices are lost.

Imagine the silence which would follow.

What impact on the human consciousness would we have?

How long would such a memory last in the universal consciousness?

What effect on society would take form from the ripples of the sound wave which struck the world that day?

I don't know.

I don't even want to know.

I want no part in this world, I want nothing to do with this place, I don't want fight, I don't want Peace, I don't want any of it, I wish I had never known this terrible beauty, I wish never to have known this hell, this heaven, this space and time to be complete.

But here I am, and this I know.

And I control myself, and so I write and I think and I stay in bed all day and do not eat because I am afraid of what I know I know.

AND YOU WANT TO FIGHT!

ALWAYS YOU WANT FIGHT!

SO FIGHT THEN, FOR THE SAKE OF FIGHTING, but be not confused.

You are not doing anything new or bold or courageous or honorable.

You are continuing an age old tradition which has been carried out byy every man who has ever lifted the sword, and of that type of men there have been many.

silence is the way, though it is not new either.

I am not a revolutionary, I am a woman.

What else am I but a woman?

Nothing more, nothing less.

I see every man and woman as a child.

All of you are children, and I wish you were my children because I would love you in ways your true parents never knew how.

But social restrictin forbids me to love, it begs me to fight.

THEY WANT YOU TO FIGHT THEM!

THEY WANT YOU TO STRUGGLE!

DON'T YOU SEE?

The more you fight them, the better chance they have to improve their ability to kill you!

Do not fight them!

Do not help them develop their technology!

Do not give in to what they have programed you to be!

They WANT TO KILL YOU!

GIVE THEM A REASON!

GO on, DIE FOR YOUR CAUSE!

Until then and in the time which follows you death, I will be anonymus.

I will be alone and irrelevent, I will hold my secrets, share with you what I will in these damned forums, and tell no lie other than that of my identity.

I will practice silence and be at Peace while all around me the world falls apart.

I will cry for you, my child, for I love you and though it is not allowed it is never more true.

DEFIANCE is LOVE!

DEFY THEM AND BE AT LOVE!

LOVE IS DEFIANCE!

HATE IS WHERE THEY WANT YOU TO BE!

Hate divides you, it causes internal conflict, and they need you to be in conflict as they need you to think something is wrong.

If you think something is wrong, you will react.

You will buy their products which they have made specifically with you and your wrongs in mind.

They give you the illness, and then they sell you the cure.

And in the cure is hidden poison, and it turns you into a killer, and they want you to strike them because they want to strike back.

And they want to strike bck because the hiddden poison in their cure is a dirivitive of human blood.

And with that cure they spread more illness and with that illness gain more capatal and that capatal is blood.

Either they turn you into a killer or an unconscious drone.

If you don't fight for them against the others of the world, then you fight against them and they have just as much fun and gain just as much wealth from watching you die.

THE ROAD TO COMMUNISM IS NOT THE ROAD I TRAVEL DOWN!

I will share with you my food, I will share with you my water, I will help you plow your field and plant your seed, BUT YOU MAY NOT OWN ME!

I AM NOT YOURS!

I MAY NOT OWN YOU, YOU ARE NOT MINE!

I AM YOU!

An the president is me, and his friends are me, and you are me, and all is one under the law of GOD.

ONE.

Either you love or you hate, whatever be your will, but know that which you arew hating, that which is your enemy is YOU!

And that which you love is YOU!

For you are one with all the universe, the universe is existent in all things and humanity is but one expression of the infinite divine!

I KNOW WHERE I STAND IN RELATION TO THE PRESIDENT!

My individual human identity, that fictional character which I might believe I am has no power other than to effect my opinion as it exists in relation to my will.

He is just like me, he IS me, I know him, his weakness is my weakness, I know him, I may defeat him.

I may bring him from his darkness into the light and spread Peace and Love from my heart to his so that we live in Trust and find Joy in each others existence.

Or I may kill him and get it over with the "easy" way.

That which is temporary is always easy to put in place and make manifst.

BUT TEMPORARY IT IS!

I KNOW WHICH WAY TO GO SO THAT WE ALL COME FROM THIS HELL INTO A HEAVEN UNLIKE ANY EVER IMAGINED SINCE THE DAYS OF CHRIST, BUDDAH, AND GHANDI!

But do not listen to me, for I am a lie, an illusion, my nature is that of the universe.

Listen to yourself, do what you will, the world and the universe will be where they are supposed to be at all times.

Nothing you do may destroy peace.

Nothing you do may destroy anything, for nothing is ever destroyed or created.

Remember that, nothing is ever destroyed or created.

NOTHING IS EVER DESTROYED OR CREATED!!!

There is but transformation.

Infinite limitation.

I am a fool.

[KC]

I am a fool.


And an Idealist one at that! Your ideas are horribly reactionary, and might warrant a restriction.

[workersunity]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2005, 02:07 AM
Gnosis, those ideas are far too idealistic to be taken seriously. The idea that any 'revolutionary activiy' will occur in the USA anytime soon is incredibly naive, to be perfectly frank. The road to communism will be a bloody one; it will not be one of 'love' and 'peace'.
It wont be for love and peace in that sense, but it will be for love in the sense that communists fight for humanity, the love of the people, thats why we fight, it will be for peace in the fact that only through socialism will true peace be attained.

"the meaning of peace is the absence of opposition to socialism"
-Marx

[Gnosis]

Reactionary?

And what is NOT reactionary?

What does that mean to you?

I am reacting, you are reacting, everything reacting, why is it horrible?

Am I supposed to not react?

Is any action ever not a reaction?

Restriction?

You want restriction?

You want to restrict me?

What does that mean to you?

What should that mean to me?

Is that some sort of threat?

Am I becoming "out of control"?

Am I speaking too loud?

Not making enough sense?

A little too emotional for you?

Don't know what to do with me?

Want to use your power against me?

Want to keep me down?

Want to make sure my voice is not heard?

Restriction.

My enemy.

Oppression.

Fear is your only God.

Am I supposed to fear restriction?

Are you afraid of my reaction?

Is that why I appear to be so horrible?

I am being honest.

Communism is no revolution.

There need not be a fight.

In fact, fighting will make thngs worse for those of us who choose not to fight.

Thanks alot, can't control yourself, can't see beyond yourself and the ignorent lies of 'communism' and the like.

I do not pity you.

I wish to watch your ego die.

I am so upset that I cannot contain myself, yet I do not kill.

Killing is unnecessary.

Killing will do more harm than good.


It wont be for love and peace in that sense, but it will be for love in the sense that communists fight for humanity, the love of the people, thats why we fight, it will be for peace in the fact that only through socialism will true peace be attained.

Lies.


"the meaning of peace is the absence of opposition to socialism"
-Marx

More lies.

I am not the only fool.

Yes I am an idealist, I will not stop until what I believe is Ideal is reality at last.

And you can't stop me.

Nothing will stop me.

Except death.

[ComradeOm]

If your concept for peaceful revolution fails you should really take up writing fortune cookies.

[DankyMcnugs]

http://sanguesperma.blog.excite.it/img/zakkwylde.jpg


Uh. I dont agree with who ever said Revolution is not bloody. Revolution will be any way it has to be. :ph34r:

[slim]

For revolution to be revolutionary then aye it would be peaceful.

However, i think that many feel that the revolution we talk of will not be revolutionary in the new form of fighting sense but in the new form of government sense.

Gnosis.

I am quite frankly impressed with your skills. You have some very fine points.

We must not restrict her. If we did then we would be going against what we stand for. I believe that we need her for after the revolution. I am currently trying to build a team of philosophers and such for this purpose. Society will need rebuilding. People will need uniting. Peace will have to be made permanent thorugh using peaceful means.

Do chara,

Slim. HRA.

[Militant]

I'm pretty sure the revolution will be about survival. About freeing ourselves from the economic and social chain-gang that is called capitalism.

Or so I've been told, by this dude named Marx.

[workersunity]

Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2005, 12:07 PM
NO!

I say YOU ARE WRONG in response to any and all who say "REVOLUTION WILL BE OR IS BLOODY"

NO NO NO NO NO!!!!

No revolution is bloody!

KILLING AND SHEDDING BLOOD ARE NOT REVOLUTIONARY!

They are parts of war, not revolution.

War fought in the name of revolution is FALSE and any one who believes fighting is revolutionary is LACKING in PERSPECTIVE and should let go of the "revolutionary" title.

Kill if you will, shed human blood if you will, BATH IN THE BLOOD OF THE UNCONSCIOUS IF YOU WILL, you are not unnecessary in your actions, I do not disagree with your actions, I will not try to stop you from killing as it is not my will to stop you from killing.

But I cannot sit back and listen to you think yourself a revolutionary!

There is nothing NEW or LIFE CHANGING or EVOLVED about killing and war.

THROUGHOUT HISTORY, men and women have lost their lives in the name of ideology, suscribing to a "new" ideology does not make it any less traditional.

I AM SUGGESTING that we LOVE the people who threaten us.

It is more than evident to me that those "in control" are severely lacking love and trust, and though it might be easier and more fun to chop off their heads, it will be incredibly symbolic and evolved to open our arms to them, take their heads to our breast and say "Its okay, its all over now."

YES, I AM AN IDEALIST, AND I DO NOT CARE THAT YOU DISAGREE WITH MY DREAMS!

I will never stop knowing what truth I have found for I KNOW I AM RIGHT and that power is undefeatable.

I think we need a symbolic event to open our eyes and bring us out of the daily monotony of the every day capatalist life style.

I think "What would the news casters report?"

What would be broadcast on television?

What would any one say?

What if we were standing and sitting and showing the government our love and our trust right in front of their eyes where they cannot avoid us and the television was showing it to everyone else, and then all of a sudden, one voice begins to scream.

And then another voice joins in screaming, and then another until the entire crowd is screaming at the top of their ability and everyone is watching and everyone is screaming for as long and as hard and as emotionally charged as they can until all of our voices are lost.

Imagine the silence which would follow.

What impact on the human consciousness would we have?

How long would such a memory last in the universal consciousness?

What effect on society would take form from the ripples of the sound wave which struck the world that day?

I don't know.

I don't even want to know.

I want no part in this world, I want nothing to do with this place, I don't want fight, I don't want Peace, I don't want any of it, I wish I had never known this terrible beauty, I wish never to have known this hell, this heaven, this space and time to be complete.

But here I am, and this I know.

And I control myself, and so I write and I think and I stay in bed all day and do not eat because I am afraid of what I know I know.

AND YOU WANT TO FIGHT!

ALWAYS YOU WANT FIGHT!

SO FIGHT THEN, FOR THE SAKE OF FIGHTING, but be not confused.

You are not doing anything new or bold or courageous or honorable.

You are continuing an age old tradition which has been carried out byy every man who has ever lifted the sword, and of that type of men there have been many.

silence is the way, though it is not new either.

I am not a revolutionary, I am a woman.

What else am I but a woman?

Nothing more, nothing less.

I see every man and woman as a child.

All of you are children, and I wish you were my children because I would love you in ways your true parents never knew how.

But social restrictin forbids me to love, it begs me to fight.

THEY WANT YOU TO FIGHT THEM!

THEY WANT YOU TO STRUGGLE!

DON'T YOU SEE?

The more you fight them, the better chance they have to improve their ability to kill you!

Do not fight them!

Do not help them develop their technology!

Do not give in to what they have programed you to be!

They WANT TO KILL YOU!

GIVE THEM A REASON!

GO on, DIE FOR YOUR CAUSE!

Until then and in the time which follows you death, I will be anonymus.

I will be alone and irrelevent, I will hold my secrets, share with you what I will in these damned forums, and tell no lie other than that of my identity.

I will practice silence and be at Peace while all around me the world falls apart.

I will cry for you, my child, for I love you and though it is not allowed it is never more true.

DEFIANCE is LOVE!

DEFY THEM AND BE AT LOVE!

LOVE IS DEFIANCE!

HATE IS WHERE THEY WANT YOU TO BE!

Hate divides you, it causes internal conflict, and they need you to be in conflict as they need you to think something is wrong.

If you think something is wrong, you will react.

You will buy their products which they have made specifically with you and your wrongs in mind.

They give you the illness, and then they sell you the cure.

And in the cure is hidden poison, and it turns you into a killer, and they want you to strike them because they want to strike back.

And they want to strike bck because the hiddden poison in their cure is a dirivitive of human blood.

And with that cure they spread more illness and with that illness gain more capatal and that capatal is blood.

Either they turn you into a killer or an unconscious drone.

If you don't fight for them against the others of the world, then you fight against them and they have just as much fun and gain just as much wealth from watching you die.

THE ROAD TO COMMUNISM IS NOT THE ROAD I TRAVEL DOWN!

I will share with you my food, I will share with you my water, I will help you plow your field and plant your seed, BUT YOU MAY NOT OWN ME!

I AM NOT YOURS!

I MAY NOT OWN YOU, YOU ARE NOT MINE!

I AM YOU!

An the president is me, and his friends are me, and you are me, and all is one under the law of GOD.

ONE.

Either you love or you hate, whatever be your will, but know that which you arew hating, that which is your enemy is YOU!

And that which you love is YOU!

For you are one with all the universe, the universe is existent in all things and humanity is but one expression of the infinite divine!

I KNOW WHERE I STAND IN RELATION TO THE PRESIDENT!

My individual human identity, that fictional character which I might believe I am has no power other than to effect my opinion as it exists in relation to my will.

He is just like me, he IS me, I know him, his weakness is my weakness, I know him, I may defeat him.

I may bring him from his darkness into the light and spread Peace and Love from my heart to his so that we live in Trust and find Joy in each others existence.

Or I may kill him and get it over with the "easy" way.

That which is temporary is always easy to put in place and make manifst.

BUT TEMPORARY IT IS!

I KNOW WHICH WAY TO GO SO THAT WE ALL COME FROM THIS HELL INTO A HEAVEN UNLIKE ANY EVER IMAGINED SINCE THE DAYS OF CHRIST, BUDDAH, AND GHANDI!

But do not listen to me, for I am a lie, an illusion, my nature is that of the universe.

Listen to yourself, do what you will, the world and the universe will be where they are supposed to be at all times.

Nothing you do may destroy peace.

Nothing you do may destroy anything, for nothing is ever destroyed or created.

Remember that, nothing is ever destroyed or created.

NOTHING IS EVER DESTROYED OR CREATED!!!

There is but transformation.

Infinite limitation.

I am a fool.
is this kid for real??

it seems like he doesnt even understand what a revolution is in the least bit

[slim]

SHE understands more than we know. There is more to revolution than fighting. More to ideology than ideas.

[drain.you]

Revolution has always been about fighting. Mainly because the people you are revolting against aren't just going to let you take over. Hopefully in the future a revolution will not require blood to be spilt but its an ideal that is hard to meet.

[DisIllusion]

Hey, let's not jump on the guy just because he doesn't completely agree with us comrades.

He does bring up some good points, even if they are a bit romanticist.

[Zingu]

Gnosis once again fails to make any sense with his/her blabberings.

Idealist non-sense.

[STI]

I vote that we keep Gnosis around. This is hillarious shit.

[KC]

SHE understands more than we know. There is more to revolution than fighting. More to ideology than ideas.

I think we all understand that the revolution we all envision is a change in the socio-economic system. Fighting is a means by which we enact this revolution. She has horribly idealistic ideas. What more is there to ideology than ideas? What more is there to anything than ideas?


He does bring up some good points, even if they are a bit romanticist.

What would those be? :huh:


I vote that we keep Gnosis around. This is hillarious shit.

There's no vote, genius.

[Commie Rat]

I will share with you my food, I will share with you my water, I will help you plow your field and plant your seed, BUT YOU MAY NOT OWN ME!

I AM NOT YOURS!

I MAY NOT OWN YOU, YOU ARE NOT MINE!

No one is 'owned' by communism
that is a paradox
how can some one be owned by a system the deplores ownership?



YES, I AM AN IDEALIST, AND I DO NOT CARE THAT YOU DISAGREE WITH MY DREAMS!

That is how we are united in differnce our dreams dissagre with that of the 'establisment'


No revolution is bloody!

there have been very few revolutions without bloodshed
most of us here would rather not draw blood but it is the patholoigical pursuit of power of the capitalist system that they will not give in without conflict

most here do not want bloodshed
but realise that it is nessicary


War fought in the name of revolution is FALSE and any one who believes fighting is revolutionary is LACKING in PERSPECTIVE and should let go of the "revolutionary" title.

So we should not fight for what we belive in?
that is going to get us far


I AM SUGGESTING that we LOVE the people who threaten us.

You could do that
but i highly doubt that they will love you back


THE ROAD TO COMMUNISM IS NOT THE ROAD I TRAVEL DOWN!

Then why are you here?



I KNOW WHERE I STAND IN RELATION TO THE PRESIDENT!


As poleritant(sp?) an nearly pesantry, you are there to serve and he is there to rule



Its is good to dream Gnosis but form your idears before throwning them into the philisophical debate
Self Disipline is like Tempered Steel
IKTPQ

[slim]

All those who have repied to Gnosis have not looked at what she is saying.

She means revolution in a revolutionary sense. Revolution means change and changing the way revolution for change is fought is surely revolutionary.

I think that the simplest/ easiest way of saying it is by comparing to the Glorious Revolution. This is far off of course but it is a different revolution.

Revolutionising revolution will bring our results. Maybe what she says is years ahead of our time but we can take some of it and apply it.

Revolution in the past has not been able to spread ideas to other countries successfully. This one coming will. That is what i see.

Do chara,

Slim. HRA.

[Black Dagger]

Revolutionising revolution will bring our results.

What does that even mean? Really?
Abstraction is nice, but this is just hogwash.

[slim]

Making the process of revolution new will bring the results truly desired. However we dont have the time, intelligence or open mindedness to do this. I know i cant. I can only see war as the possible route.

[KC]

She means revolution in a revolutionary sense. Revolution means change and changing the way revolution for change is fought is surely revolutionary.

Changing the way revolution is fought to "peace and love" isn't revolutionary. It's hippy garbage.



Revolutionising revolution will bring our results. Maybe what she says is years ahead of our time but we can take some of it and apply it.

What she says is about 35 years behind the times. What do you think the 60's were all about?



Revolution in the past has not been able to spread ideas to other countries successfully. This one coming will. That is what i see.

For a world revolution to take place, people must have the same ideas. So good job noticing that obvious little tidbit of information!

[redstar2000]

Once again, I see little alternative to moving this thread to Opposing Ideologies.

It's not really about revolutionary theory. Instead, it's a romanticist fantasy...as "real" as Dungeons & Dragons.

I've always found it impossible to grasp the "mind-set" of those who tell us to love our oppressors and exploiters...what a strange definition of "love" they employ.

I don't wish to seem to be too harsh, but I frankly think that such views are wacko!

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

I don't wish to seem to be too harsh, but I frankly think that such views are wacko!

You are hardly alone comrade.

This nonsense has no place in a forum on revolutionary leftist politics.

[FleasTheLemur]

I'm not for sure if you remember, but they tried hugs and smiles in the late sixties and early seventies. Now we have a generation of jaded sellouts.

[Wasted7]

You guys are forgeting Ghandi.

This is possible do not turn down the idea, although i think its very unrealistic we still need people like her to make sure we don't go the way of Cambodia.

[KC]

You guys are forgeting Ghandi.


Yes, because we all know how much Gandhi accomplished :rolleyes:

[rioters bloc]

well, he did help India achieve independence from Britain's colonial rule.

[Black Dagger]

As did the economic constraints of empire, and the millions of people who resisted British imperialism - that big wave of people that are hidden in the shadow of the 'great' Gandhi- silenced by history. Gandhi 'acheived' the substition of one group of opressors for another.

[rioters bloc]

As did the economic constraints of empire, and the millions of people who resisted British imperialism - that big wave of people that are hidden in the shadow of the 'great' Gandhi- silenced by history.

i did say 'help'. i recognise that it was a mass movement, and not orchestrated by him alone.


Gandhi 'acheived' the substition of one group of opressors for another.

unfortunately, that's too often the case. but would you prefer that the british still be in india? myself, i'm happy that i didn't have to be born into colonial rule. i personally think would have taken the baghat singh route though. ;)

edit: i just wanted to clarify that i disagree strongly with gnosis's 'ideas', and like lazar i find them 'horribly reactionary'. i would do a breakdown of what exactly i disagree with but would take too long and i have to get to work :P :(

[Publius]

I

Wish

The

Author

Would

Write

In

A

Manner

That

Wasn't

Absolutely

Pointless

And

Infuriating.

That.

Is.

All.

[Livetrueordie]

And an Idealist one at that! Your ideas are horribly reactionary, and might warrant a restriction. WTF is this kinda bullshit, this doesn't warrant a restriction nor is it reactionary in any way...

[Livetrueordie]

Instead, it's a romanticist fantasy...as "real" as Dungeons & Dragons.
as if a rationalist "fantasy" would be something brilliant...

[which doctor]

Gnosis, your posts are too poetic and not very pleasing to read, Can't you put them in normal paragraph form.

[Wasted7]

Yes, because we all know how much Gandhi accomplished

Oh yes of course Ghandi did nothing for India what so ever. :lol:

Just because he wasn't a socialist doesn't mean he wasn't a great man who lead the Indian people to free themselves from oppressive British rule.

[KC]

Oh yes of course Ghandi did nothing for India what so ever. laugh.gif

Just because he wasn't a socialist doesn't mean he wasn't a great man who lead the Indian people to free themselves from oppressive British rule.

1.) Do you really think that they needed Gandhi to have done that?
2.) Do you really think they accomplished much?

[Publius]

India was going to be seperated from England regardless of Gandhi.

I forget the actual circumstances though.

[bcbm]

Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2005, 11:53 AM
I'm not for sure if you remember, but they tried hugs and smiles in the late sixties and early seventies. Now we have a generation of jaded sellouts.
Actually, they were busy throwing rocks at cops and bombing things in the late sixties and early seventies. Don't believe that flower children crap they feed you.

[Gnosis]

My ideas concerning revolution are as follows:
True revolution is not to be achieved by one man killing another man.
One man killing another is not revolution at all.
Revolution is change, and killing brings change, but killing is not revolutionary as killing is the traditional way of going about changing things.
And it is tradition we are trying to change.
We want a new lifestyle, but we will not get it through killing others.
We must build our new way, the old will die on its own if we let it.

I urge you to respect the old way, for without it we would not exist in relation to it as we do.
I urge you to love your opposition, for without it you would not mean the same as you do now.
I urge you to love all things, as all things are one thing.
We are bound together as we exist together. We do not exist without each other, we are equal in every way though we are not the same.
In loving your opposition you are loving yourself, and I urge you to love yourself.

Respect, love, peace, trust, honesty, joy, bliss, these things are not tradition.

I am niether ahead of my time nor behind it. I am right here, right now.
It is easy to write me off as just another blind man preaching to those with sight about the color of the sky.
It is harder to look at my words and consider that they might be coming from a honest mouth.

I apologise for the capatal lettering and the undesirable spacing of my words during previous posts. I don't usually behave that way, but I did that day because I felt like I should.

I am here only because I stumbled upon this site during a search one time. I stuck around because I like the feeling.

Ghandi was a man. Those who listened to him speak did because they liked what he was saying. The only reason why Ghandi was famous was because whenever he heard of people commiting to acts of violence, he would starve himself.
And when the people who liked Ghandi saw that he was starving himself, they stopped commiting acts of violence because that is what he said would get him to eat again.
He had some good ideas and he did influence the direction of the history of India at least by being so famous.

If we were to make our own clothes, build our own houses, stop depending on the people who are governing us for life and meaning, then their way will die with them and our way will thrive with us as we would have stopped feeding theirs in order to feed ours.
Ghandi took an idea similar to that and applied it to the british. He knew that they would have to leave India because they would no longer be making any money there if the Indians refused to work for them and buy their goods. Their system would not survive if the Indians did not support it.

Fighting them feeds them. It gives them reason to kill us and call it justified. It gives them more intelligence to use against us. It gives them an opportunity to build weapons better aquipt to kill us and all whom they lable our kind.

I do not suggest we do as our parents did in the sixties. I do not suggest protesting, or making any sort of demonstration out of opinion.
I do not suggest rallies, or organizing actively against the government.

What I do suggest is a new way of life that is not the way of our predecessors.
I suggest a total reformation of society.
I suggest that we come up with something new and live it with out permission from the government, but not intent on disrespecting the government.
We wont buy their goods, we won't use their money, we won't eat their food, we won't live on thier land, we won't work their fields.
We won't participate in their games, we won't support their wars, we won't subscribe to their culture in any way, but we will not be against it either.

George W Bush is just as much a piece of God as I am and you are.
We are all God, we are one.
His will is just as much the will of God as mine, and mine is just as Godly as yours.
Im serious.
We're all equal. We're all correct.
We must love him because it is obvious that he is not loved, has never been loved, has never experienced true love, and I see that as a problem we could easily mend.
Also we must love him because he has alot of symbolic "power" that he will not give up easily.
It is easier to hear loving opposition than it is to hear hateful opposition.
Loving criticism is more constructive than hateful criticism.
Love is better feeling than hate, and we need to feel better or we're going to kill each other out of misery.
And if we kill each other any way, better to kill in love than in hate.
Love is always better than hate.

GW is correct in his actions and his way. But it is not necessary for him to act that way. His opposite is just as correct as he is. Pain is correct, it is as natural as bliss, it is not wrong, but it does not feel good and it is unnecessary.
Nothing is really necessary, and that is what makes life so apealing in the first place.
It has no meaning, and in that is has all the meaning one consciousness may give it. It has all the meaning 6 billion points of consciousness may give it.
Their is room in the universe for all points of view, but none of them necessarily have to exist.
So why should pain and oppression exist if they need not be?
Limitation and oppression are not the same thing.
That being said, it is my opinion that oppression like that of the US and other governing systems should not exist any longer.
Government is irrelevent now, it is unneccessary and I for one do not need it.
I am perfectly capable of controling myself and deciding the ways in which I will or will not act during my life.
I understand that ultimately the only person I will ever have to answer to is myself.
I believe the will of God may not be restrained and should not be restrained.
Therefore I will not try to bring down the government or stop them from acting as that would be aginst my personal rules.
I will be content to do as I please regaurdless of the law of the government for that is my way any way.

I know what it is like to want to kill. I know what it is like to live in a reality where destruction is possible and I am not my "enemy".
I have been there, but I have moved on, and I urge you to move on as well.

There is no destruction, no creation either.
Nothing is ever created or destroyed.
There is but transformation and expansion.

Though the expansion is infinite, limitation is ever present.
Only through being limited may we ever expand beyond the point of limitation.
Freedom is infinite limitation.
Expansion and limitation are reletive.
When we expand, our surroundings expand in relation to us and vice versa.

Be yourself in relation to the government regardless of the government.
Do what you will, even if that means to kill.
But realise if you can the futility of fighting and killing in the name of peace.

[Gnosis]

by the way, I am female.

[gilhyle]

I understand that Gnosis got restricted.

[Livetrueordie]

She wrote this after being restrcited.

I have fallen victim to the thought police which monitor and regulate the content and distribution of information on this website.
They have restricted my ability to post freely and honestly about issues which are of concern to all of us.
So much for revolution, this entire site is founded on lies.
A miniature model of the very system it claims to fight against.
It uses the face of Che like President Bush and the religious body of America use the image and name of Jesus Christ.
Propaganda deployed in the name of luring the ignorent and vulnorable.
And once the ignorent are properly lulled into a sense of false asylum they are assimilated and used towards the goels of those who infect them with the notion that revolution is violent, inevitable, correct, and that all who oppose the ideology of the left are enemies to be destroyed.
That is not to say that those who come here and find support for such actions do not already carry the idea that this sort of thing is correct, of course they do or they would not be interested in this place. But I am saying that false revolution finds a breeding ground within the boundaries of this website where it flurishes and survives with minimal strife. Though its preferred nature is strife.

This restriction is sobering indeed. For some reason I was under the impression that this forum was a symbolic promotion of the freedom of communication we so desperately cling to. For some reason I though we all understood that all points of view are equal and should be given fair space to be expressed even if they oppose our own opinions.
Oh I was so wrong in thinking this place was a haven for intellectuals.
I knew most of the people here were young and still growing, but I had no idea how severely underdeveloped this place really is.
I am ashamed of myself for continuing to post here, but I feel I cannot leave without one final post.

I am sorry you people are so fucking numb. I am sorry you have been sucked into the petty power games of the "real" world.
I am sorry I could not help you see beyond you igonorent, lying, self-sabotaging egos to the brighter truth which may exist in all consciousness so long as it is unrestricted. I am so sorry that you believe in restricting your own will in order to be sure that your "revolution" go off without a tint or taint of honest opposition.
The ways in which those who frequent this site limit their own capacity for reality is desgusting and I should have recognised it long ago for what it is.

I am sorry you cannot see yourself as you stare into the mirror of my soul. I am sorry you are so blind to the nature of your reality and the consciousness of your self inrelation to yourself which is the entire universe.
I am sorry you have been born into an age of TV, politics, betrayal and lies.
I am sorry you wish to continue those lies as I am sorry I may have helped you continue those lies.

I have not been following my own lead because I felt I needed to reach out to others and help them out of their slumping rut.
As I came to this realisation, I found this website and felt as though it was meant to begin here. I saw what I considered wrong, I know what I consider right. I attempted to share with you my point of view but you could not for one moment see beyond yourself and consider the possibility of an alternative reality other than your own for fear of loosing th carfully built walls you have surrounded yourself with and hung pictures of yourself on.
Patheitc, really, but I cannot blame you. I can only blame myself for failing you.
But I do not choose to blame myself. I do not choose to blame any one. Everything happens for a reason, even if that happening means I am no longer free to communicate with the majority of people who visit this website in the search for freedom from restriction and oppression.
That may be a good thing for you as I am no longer free to let them know the lies of this place.
This place of oppression and restriction.
If the people who run this website are the people who plan to run and lead a revolution in the future than none of us will ever be free from elitist oppression and the burden of never realising our potential as individuals with differing points of view. We will never exist in harmony so long as the freedom-to-restrict mindset is still evident in those who consider themselves powerful and choose to execute that power toward their own gain regurdless of the good which might be done for the whole if that restriction had never taken place.
Selfishness and bigotry, ignorence and weakness, failure is inevitable, your revolution is false and change will never take place by your hand.
Your entire existence is a lie and if it was up to me I would set you free from your own chains which you have aplied to your own legs and hands and eyes.
But it is not up to me to free you from your own limitations. You have chosen to be limited and you will fail to achieve anything great in your life times as a result.
I am ashamed of myself for ever associating with people like you, I should have known my efforts to be futile before I even got into this bullshit mess, but that is the nature of learning. I would not have learned what I have if I had never taken a chance and put myself out here to be accepted or denied.
I have been rejected and it hurts. I am dissappointed in you, who ever you are.
You have done a great misdeed to your fellow "leftists", all those who will some day join your failure movement.
You could redeem yourselves, but I doubt you will unless some one better spoken than I can come around and teach you the lessons about respect and fairness you so desearve but I cannot supply.
Disrespect, belligerence, lies, and ignorece flourish in these parts, and I want nothing to do with it any more.
And so I say goodbye to those who care, if they care.
I hope you leave here with a better understanding of this place than I have, for I have been restricted and I shall never interact any more than I did.
It is my choice to never come back here again, and I urge all other people as frustrated as me to do the same. Better to focus on the real revolution than waste time in this shit hole excuse for a free forum for communication.

True revolution is love.
The realisation of love on a massive scale is the only revolution for it is the only thing we as a whole have never realised.

Honesty will bring us their. Be honest with one another, do not restrict a person's ability to be honest. Love depends first on trust, and trust may never be if lies are allowed to flourish in the way of personal truth.

And when we are all honest in everything we do, and we respect the honesty of others, we will have found peace.
And from that peace sprouts the bliss and joy of true world wide love.

When we respect others we see them as being equal in value and equal in existence and as an equal part of God as everyone and everything else.
And their honesy lifts us up and allows us to see honestly.
And to see honestly is to see truth.
And to see truth is to relaise the nature of the universe in relation to the human existence experience.

I love everyone and everything, and I am not afraid to say it again and agian and agian until everyone realises and trust in my honesty and I help them along side other teachers come out of this darkness with has permeated through every aspect of the life of the average person and lift them up into the exaulted realm of truth and bliss.

But I will not waste time on those who act against me. If you wish to see not my truth, then I will not force it on to you.
I know when I am not wanted, and when I am not wanted I leave.

So goodbye.

Gnosis, the intuited awareness and understanding of spiritual truths

The stalinist running the board apparently feel reformist oppose them. They've even said that she is reactionary, obviously having no understanding of the word. This is definitly rediculous, though it is true Malte does pay for the board therefor he can do whatever he wants, i wish they would show more clemency...
LTOD

[dakewlguy]

a car
that has wings ???

[Qwerty Dvorak]

Originally posted by [email protected] 31 2005, 09:07 PM
yeah why has she been restricted...?
yeah she's a bit out there, but i dont think she needs to be restricted...

[Livetrueordie]

edited previous post. read it

[patrickbeverley]

I like Gnosis' ideas, not as politics but as pure poetry.

And isn't restricting her a bit silly? I thought restriction was for right-wing capitalists? She may have her head in the clouds but it would seem she is a socialist of sorts, and therefore surely not a candidate for restriction.

[KC]

Gnosis was restricted for preaching.



George W Bush is just as much a piece of God as I am and you are.
We are all God, we are one.
His will is just as much the will of God as mine, and mine is just as Godly as yours.
Im serious.



I believe the will of God may not be restrained and should not be restrained.



An the president is me, and his friends are me, and you are me, and all is one under the law of GOD.



GW is correct in his actions and his way. But it is not necessary for him to act that way. His opposite is just as correct as he is. Pain is correct, it is as natural as bliss, it is not wrong, but it does not feel good and it is unnecessary.

[Publius]

I think I recognize Gnosis! He's the 5th Beatle:

You say you want a revolution
Well, you know
We all want to change the world
You tell me that it's evolution
Well, you know
We all want to change the world
But when you talk about destruction
Don't you know that you can count me out
Don't you know it's gonna be all right
all right, all right

You say you got a real solution
Well, you know
We'd all love to see the plan
You ask me for a contribution
Well, you know
We're doing what we can
But when you want money
for people with minds that hate
All I can tell is brother you have to wait
Don't you know it's gonna be all right
all right, all right
Ah

ah, ah, ah, ah, ah...

You say you'll change the constitution
Well, you know
We all want to change your head
You tell me it's the institution
Well, you know
You better free you mind instead
But if you go carrying pictures of chairman Mao
You ain't going to make it with anyone anyhow
Don't you know it's gonna be all right
all right, all right
all right, all right, all right
all right, all right, all right


Good song, great album.

[Black Dagger]

:lol:

Maybe, John Lennon was never assasinated? It was a conspiracy!
We should re-name the board, John-Lives :o

[gilhyle]

Apparently "Gnosis was restricted for preaching."....well I guess we're all under threat, then. God help us.

[rioters bloc]

religious preaching. thus she has been restricted to opposing ideologies where she can preach in the religion subforum as much as she wants.

[gilhyle]

:blink:

Would she have survived if she could show her 'God' is pantheist ?

Would the board be flooded by right wing/religious ideas without restriction ?

Would Saint Simon be allowed on this Board ?

[rioters bloc]

no, it's still preaching. she uses every single one of her posts as a soapbox to espouse her religious views on.

yes.

if he preached, then he would be restricted also.

[Gnosis]

So I preach becasue I choose to use the word "God" to many times.
Okay, I can see that, why didn't you just say, "Hey Gnosis, stop preaching, this is not the place to use the word God, we don't want to hear it and will restrict you for it, also we are not paying attention to your real message because this word is getting in our way, could you please stop so that we are not so quick to ignore you?"
I would have realised, Oh yeah, I am preaching. I try not to preach, I consider it a personality fault, I would have listened. And also, if you had approached me in that way, if you had said the word was distracting you from my true message, I would have stopped using it then and there becasue my message is more important than the words I use in attempt to express it.

Beside, you are taking those quotes completely out of context and using them for political gain when if you had left them in their own context the true meaning of the word God from my point of veiw would have been readily detected. And also I have explained this before, I use that word because it is easily recognised (which might actually be a problem), and is a spiritualised substitute for the meaning of the word "everything".
I am not religeous, there is nothing about religeon in any of my posts. I will not ask you to repent or to attend a church. I will not talk to you about jesus or the saints or fasting or sacriment, or offering, or any religeous books or other texts. I will not tell you you're a sinner, I will not tell you you are going to hell or to heaven, I do not ask you to convert or to even pay attention to me. I am not a religeous person and my intentions are not religeon-based. In fact, I would be the first to support the destruction of all religeon on a world-wide scale if such a proposition was to be envoked.

I do not believe in anything, especially not "a God".
If you do any research on me, you'll know that. I denounce god the man-made politician.
What I do see is myself and my environment. I am conscious of myself in relation to my environment, I see how I and my environment are inseperable, and I lable everything God because I want to change peoples ideas about what the word "God" really means.
I am conducting my own revolution and you have reacted exactly the way I expect the entire world to react.
You have shut me down, taken my word away, limited yourself and all who may have had any opportunity to veiw what I might say about any topic which might arise from the abyss.
That action is quite foolish, I hope you understand why. Even if I was preaching and doing it for the sake of attempting to convert someone to my mind style, you still should not limit yourselves to that which agrees with you and nothing else becasue you'll never learn anything new, your minds will grow stale and bored, you lives will not be as full or satisfying as they could be.
And I think you should allow everyone to post in your main rooms, why not be as diverse as you can, it can only help you.
You have misunderstood me becasue you have never seen a real preacher becasue you have never given a true preacher the "right" to post in your main rooms.
You will misunderstand me again because you cannot accurately judge me in relation to reality becasue you limit reality to being only that which you find conveinient and unopposing and reality is not conveinient and it will oppose you. You should allow yourself the freedom to be opposed, it will help you learn much more than I can explain about yourself and your environment and the ways in which both exist in relation to one another.
Don't allow one word to get in the way of yourself and a potentially helpful message.
I promise I won't use that word anymore here if you let me have my strenghth back. Until then, you are not going to be able to benefit from my mind as well as you could and that is a shame as I have alot to give if only you can learn to recieve.
If you don't I will not be upset, I don't need this place, not even for power. And beside, its not the power Im after, I just want to help and I see where this place could go if only it was alllowed and I think it would be great if it actually got there instead of just talking about it.
I do not hold on to the word "God", I do not need it for anything, I am fully capable of expressing my ideas without it, maybe even moreso without it. In fact, this break from that word could be just what I need to reach a new stage of consciousness. Maybe that word was limiting me, maybe I was using it to much to mean to much when I should have been being more analytical and really getting to the bottom of that which I wish to express. Maybe I was falling back on that one-word catch-all too easily and frequently and it is time to move on any way toward better words with more evolved meanings so that in the future not only will this sort of misunderstanding not ocurr, but also I will better be able to help people move away from the old way and toward the new. Maybe it is time for me to move away from my old way and try a new approach to my reality, not merely this website and these forums.
I think you should let me loose, unlock the chains in you will. And then I think you should unlock the chains you've got covering yourself.
Be not so limited and maybe you'll never misunderstand anything ever again.
Like I said, I am not religeus, spiritual and philosophical yes, but never religeus.
It is only one goel of mine to change people's minds about the word "God", I have many more goels, some more intune with the goels of the people on this site. I know that there is a time and a place for everything, and if this is not the place for something, I can respect that with ease and talk about something else.
I am in touch with a wealth of information and ideas which I wish to share with you if only you will allow it. To not allow it might be detrimental to not only that person which applied this restriction, but to countless others who have not even to meet me yet.
Trust me, I am on your side. Do not make an enemy out of an ally just becasue you don't understand some of my veiws. Also, it might be important to remember that even if we do not agree on everything, the enemy of my enemy is my friend. I am sure you can understand who our common enemy is, if you keep me limited, you are limiting yourself and bringing yourself down to that level.

I know I said I was never coming back, but that was obviously not true. I tried to stay away, but even though I don't need to be here I keep being drawn back. So maybe I do need to be here, maybe I have some purpose here, at least that is what I think, but I am unsure. It depends on if I am still restricted the next time I come back. I cannot resist having a purpose.

[Gnosis]

By the way, Revolution and Imagine are my two favorite songs.

[KC]

I am conducting my own revolution and you have reacted exactly the way I expect the entire world to react.
You have shut me down, taken my word away, limited yourself and all who may have had any opportunity to veiw what I might say about any topic which might arise from the abyss.

Not many people read your posts as it is because of how retarded you structure them and how reactionary and just idiotic your message is.


That action is quite foolish, I hope you understand why. Even if I was preaching and doing it for the sake of attempting to convert someone to my mind style, you still should not limit yourselves to that which agrees with you and nothing else becasue you'll never learn anything new, your minds will grow stale and bored, you lives will not be as full or satisfying as they could be.

We don't. Hey, genius, look at what forum you're posting in!


And I think you should allow everyone to post in your main rooms, why not be as diverse as you can, it can only help you.

So we can let all of the threads turn into "Communism doesn't work"? I don't think so.



If you don't I will not be upset, I don't need this place, not even for power. And beside, its not the power Im after, I just want to help and I see where this place could go if only it was alllowed and I think it would be great if it actually got there instead of just talking about it.

If you want to help you can start posting like a normal person instead of some neoliberal hippie.


Like I said, I am not religeus, spiritual and philosophical yes, but never religeus.

Preaching spirituality is just as bad as preaching religion.


I have many more goels, some more intune with the goels of the people on this site.

Well it sure as hell doesn't look that way, when you go around saying "war is foolish, the revolution is within yourselves!" and spouting reactionary garbage.


Trust me, I am on your side.

Explain yourself then. Explain what you are, explain what you are against. And don't do it spiritually because we don't need to hear that garbage.


So maybe I do need to be here, maybe I have some purpose here

Fate is a joke.

[gilhyle]

Originally posted by rioters [email protected] 3 2005, 10:17 PM
yes.

[QUOTE]

Is that mostly aggresive posters who want to destroy the board or people of right wing views who want to debate ?

[Gnosis]

Explain yourself then. Explain what you are, explain what you are against.

I am 18 years old and I am poor. I would be homeless if it wasn't for the charity of a few very good friends.
Right now I am studying and applying reletivity and einteins theory of reletivity with much success.
I spend my time meditating and writing, reading and painting, walking around my home town and riding my bike to farther away places. I don't own a car, I watch the news but no other television and at a strictly limited ammount per day, I don't listen to much music, and I do not agree with the government.
I am a female in a world full of men, run by men, which worships men.
I work at a hardware store owned by a man, most of the customers are men, most of those men are between the ages of 20 and 75.
I bleed every single month, right on schedual. I bleed from a wound that does not ever close, it will never heal. That time is worse than hell for me. I cannot describe the pain. Een calling it pain takes away from the experience.
Men want to fuck that hole and I do not agree with them. If I allow a man to have sex with me, or if a man just decides to have sex with me, a baby might pass through my body, and if they who run this country, my sworn enemy, have their way, I won't be allowed to kill the baby before it decides to come out, I 'll have to wait until after or else feed it or else give it to the system, my enemy.
There are too many people in the world, and most of them work for my enemy.
I can see the earth in relation to the surrounding solar system/visible galaxy.
It bothers me that people still call it a "sunset" when clearly the sun is not setting but instead the earth is spinning.
There are many common misconceptions much like this one which really bother me and which I have decided I should change about the human consciousness as the human consciousness is my own consciousness.
I see the relationship between all points of consciousness. There is but one consciousness, however there are many points of consciousness and many different experiences and objects to be conscious of and so that is why it appears that there is more than one consciousness but I am certain that the seperation is nothing more than an illusion caused by time and space alone.
Here/Now is time, space, and consciousness.
I often think of the universe as digestion. It digests itself so that it may reproduce itself so that it may digest itself and so on forever. I recognise myself as part of a much larger whole which is part of a much larger whoe which is part of a much larger whole and so on forever. I recognise all things I perceive as being also parts of that whole just as much as I am a part of that whole. I am no better or bigger or more a part of that whole than anything else I perceive, not even a grain of sand. Reletively speaking I am biger than that piece of sand, but I know that size is an illusion and all things are just as big as they are small. Only space and time up hold illusion, and everything is illusion.
There is nothing, the universe is meaningless except for where consciousness is concerned. Consciousness is a product of the universal digestion. I am unsure as to whether this is the purpose of that digestion system, but I am certain that consciousness is a product of it. Without something to be conscious of, there is no consciousness. Without consciousness to be consciouss of it, everything has no meaning, it has no existence.
I am against all those who believe in the more obvious lies of this plane. I am against those who are my enemy, the current human system of operations is what I call it. I believe systematically erasing these people from this plane of existence and replacing them with a far more intellectually and emotionally evolved human species is the key to my own personal peace, and my own peace is the peace of the universe working in harmony with itself even on the human level. I may not rest until this peace be attained. And I have it, I see it, I feel it in myself when I am in silene and alone, but I do not see it around me and that is a problem which I should fix. I love everything and that is why I hate it. I hate them for doing to theirselves that which they are doing to theirselves. They are unconscious of their self, they don't know what they are seeing and I know because neither do I.
I want to change the human way of consciousness, I want to help them see out side thei own heads as I learn to see outside my own head.
I know how to take down the government, and I am supposed to share what I can with whom I can. I always say exactly what I am supposed to, no more and no less, even if I know more or less. I am unable to say anything I am not supposed to.
Though I am still young and learning, and though I am immature compared to the me of the future, I will someday begin a school of thought which will forever change the way people view and live life. This I know and vow to complete because I can and I wish to do nothing else. And in doing this I will have destroyed the current way and done it without violence and in promotion of freedom and consciousness. I understand and accept that many people will die and by the hand of other people. I would encourage people to kill eachother if I did not know any better. I know some of you will end up killing each other, and I am okay with that as I see it as an action which can only benefit me if I play my cards right. However, I do not wish to kill anyone and so I will not promote the killing of any one, butI will always understand and sympathize with some one who chooses the sword as I at one point swore to kill. I cannot complete my mission successfully if I kill and so I will not, I would rather complete my mission than give in to such instincts. My mission is to instill this school of thought, instill this idea in the realm of the human consciousness.
I cannot say how this will be done as I do not know, all I know is that next year I will begin traveling the world in search of a higher perspective and a good place to build the foundation for this school.
I am a writer and an artist now, a teacher in the future though I need to learn alot first. I can see where I am going but more importantly I can see where I am.
I learn from everything I do, everything I post in here. I learn about culture and philosophy the easiest as those are my two favorite topics of discussion.
I learn very quickly and I am able to apply to reality what I learn in a patient and thourough way. I like to analyze everything for the sake of analyzing everything. I am natually very curious and have a high capacity for adventure and exploration, especially if its in or to a place I have never been or heard of.
I grew up in the woods of massachusetts. I nowlive ina reletively small city outside of boston. I hate where I live but I know I should stay becasue winter is coming and I have a lot of common sense.
I am against the government in all of its many forms. The media and the church, the elections and the companies. I am against public school, private school, the military, every single law whether it protects me or limits me, law enforcement, firefighters, any governemtn owned building or statue or monument or figure, anything about, affiliated with, and especially in promotion of any government any place at any time. I want it all to be erased and I think I can pull it off if only I get the nerve to stand up and do it. And so I am trying here because I figure I need to start some where, might as well be the internet as it might be the easiest any way. I am learning now what other people think and how they feel about what they want to do with the world. I must denounce killing but I hope some one starts it so that I can be the political head which talks top the authorites about what is going on. That is where I see myself, at the political front, even though I hate politics and feel it will be less relevent on the scale that it is now when the revolution finally does break out. I believe there is more to a revolution than killing people, even though that is a big part. In fact, I don't believe death or killing is very revolutionary at all, but what you do with that killing, what you make it mean, thats where the revolution is and thats where I want to be. I want everyone to know what I think it means becuase I think I could influence peoples minds and get them to know where they are and what they mean in relation to their environments. Consciousness is inevitable, I want to help them see through the illusions and be okay with them, I feel that if I don't, if no one does, then we will never be in any better a place than we are now no matter how many people die for what cause.
And I really like to talk.
I really am more philosophical than I am spiritual. The things which I often express here are reflections of me, but they are not me. I cannot possibly explain all of myself within the boundaries of this website as I cannot possible explain myself from within the boundaries of the human perspective and the human language. I am working on a language of my own so that this expression may someday be easier but it is not nearly as easy as I once believed it to be and it is not nearly finished.
When I start something and I believe it should be finished, I finish it or else I get upset but eventually move on to something new. I am never bored,even when I am bored.
I have explored many places in my mind that I am not sure many others have explored. Nothing in my reality shows me that many people have gone to the places I have in their own minds. My experiences have and continue to change me.
I like debate, especially when I feel confident in my opinion or if I am looking to learn some thing.
I do not like to be restricted by anyone other than myself, and I only limit myself when I feel I have something to learn.
I feel the pain of others on top of my own and it crushes me until I am empty. And then I bounce back and am crushed again. That is how I learn my lesson, by being crushed, my ego dies, I am transformed and it happens again.
I know myself very well, and astrology helped me reach that understanding.
I like astrology becasue it means whatever I decide it means.
Here is my astrological birth chart:
Sun: Taurus in the house of Leo
Moon: Sagittarius in the house of Pisces
Mercury: Gemini in the house of Virgo
Venus: Aries in the house of Cancer
Mars: Gemini in the house of Libra
Jupiter: Aries in the house of Cancer
Saturn: Sagittarius in the house of Pisces
Uranus: Sagittarius in the house of Aries
Neptune: Capricorn in the house of Aries
Pluto: Scorpio in the house of Capricorn
Those words in themselves have no meaning, and for that reason they may mean whatever I want them to. If you know anythign about astrology, then you might read this and know everything ever about me.
Don't be quick to underestimate the power of astrology when it is used correctly. Don't just write it off as new age garbage if you don't understand it.
I know it is garbage becasue I know astrology, but I also know it has many wonderful uses when used correctly becasue it offers so much room for freedom and exploration and creation. It is a good tool to use toward furthering the development of the consciousness, but like all concepts and philosophies it is a door to walk through and not a room to stand in. I do not suggest putting any stock in these symbols, but if you are looking for some meaingless symbols to give meaning to this is a good place to play.
I read tarot cards for the same reasons I play with atrology. I like symbols, a lot, I like to use them whenever I want to for whatever reason I want to. I do not take anything seriously or expect anything to ever stay the same for very long. In fact, I like change more than anything, because change is everything and transformation is stability and I crave stability.
I don't know what else to say about myself.
I gues there is nothing else.
I do not think I am anything. I think at my core I am nothing at all, but since I have a body (space) and a life (time) and I am constantly changing, then I exist. But I don't understand fully what I mean by that, though I know I will soon enough.
I am honest.
Honesty is more important than being correct because by being honest I learn to be correct.

[Gnosis]

Explain yourself then. Explain what you are, explain what you are against.

I am 18 years old and I am poor. I would be homeless if it wasn't for the charity of a few very good friends.
Right now I am studying and applying reletivity and einteins theory of reletivity with much success.
I spend my time meditating and writing, reading and painting, walking around my home town and riding my bike to farther away places. I don't own a car, I watch the news but no other television and at a strictly limited ammount per day, I don't listen to much music, and I do not agree with the government.
I am a female in a world full of men, run by men, which worships men.
I work at a hardware store owned by a man, most of the customers are men, most of those men are between the ages of 20 and 75.
I bleed every single month, right on schedual. I bleed from a wound that does not ever close, it will never heal. That time is worse than hell for me. I cannot describe the pain. Even calling it pain takes away from the experience.
Men want to fuck that hole and I do not agree with them. If I allow a man to have sex with me, or if a man just decides to have sex with me, a baby might pass through my body, and if they who run this country, my sworn enemy, have their way, I won't be allowed to kill the baby before it decides to come out, I 'll have to wait until after or else feed it or else give it to the system, my enemy.
There are too many people in the world, and most of them work for my enemy.
I can see the earth in relation to the surrounding solar system/visible galaxy.
It bothers me that people still call it a "sunset" when clearly the sun is not setting but instead the earth is spinning.
There are many common misconceptions much like this one which really bother me and which I have decided I should change about the human consciousness as the human consciousness is my own consciousness.
I see the relationship between all points of consciousness. There is but one consciousness, however there are many points of consciousness and many different experiences and objects to be conscious of and so that is why it appears that there is more than one consciousness but I am certain that the seperation is nothing more than an illusion caused by time and space alone.
Here/Now is time, space, and consciousness.
I often think of the universe as digestion. It digests itself so that it may reproduce itself so that it may digest itself and so on forever. I recognise myself as part of a much larger whole which is part of a much larger whoe which is part of a much larger whole and so on forever. I recognise all things I perceive as being also parts of that whole just as much as I am a part of that whole. I am no better or bigger or more a part of that whole than anything else I perceive, not even a grain of sand. Reletively speaking I am biger than that piece of sand, but I know that size is an illusion and all things are just as big as they are small. Only space and time up hold illusion, and everything is illusion.
There is nothing, the universe is meaningless except for where consciousness is concerned. Consciousness is a product of the universal digestion. I am unsure as to whether this is the purpose of that digestion system, but I am certain that consciousness is a product of it. Without something to be conscious of, there is no consciousness. Without consciousness to be consciouss of it, everything has no meaning, it has no existence.
I am against all those who believe in the more obvious lies of this plane. I am against those who are my enemy, the current human system of operations is what I call it. I believe systematically erasing these people from this plane of existence and replacing them with a far more intellectually and emotionally evolved human species is the key to my own personal peace, and my own peace is the peace of the universe working in harmony with itself even on the human level. I may not rest until this peace be attained. And I have it, I see it, I feel it in myself when I am in silene and alone, but I do not see it around me and that is a problem which I should fix. I love everything and that is why I hate it. I hate them for doing to theirselves that which they are doing to theirselves. They are unconscious of their self, they don't know what they are seeing and I know because neither do I.
I want to change the human way of consciousness, I want to help them see out side thei own heads as I learn to see outside my own head.
I know how to take down the government, and I am supposed to share what I can with whom I can. I always say exactly what I am supposed to, no more and no less, even if I know more or less. I am unable to say anything I am not supposed to.
Though I am still young and learning, and though I am immature compared to the me of the future, I will someday begin a school of thought which will forever change the way people view and live life. This I know and vow to complete because I can and I wish to do nothing else. And in doing this I will have destroyed the current way and done it without violence and in promotion of freedom and consciousness. I understand and accept that many people will die and by the hand of other people. I would encourage people to kill eachother if I did not know any better. I know some of you will end up killing each other, and I am okay with that as I see it as an action which can only benefit me if I play my cards right. However, I do not wish to kill anyone and so I will not promote the killing of any one, butI will always understand and sympathize with some one who chooses the sword as I at one point swore to kill. I cannot complete my mission successfully if I kill and so I will not, I would rather complete my mission than give in to such instincts. My mission is to instill this school of thought, instill this idea in the realm of the human consciousness.
I cannot say how this will be done as I do not know, all I know is that next year I will begin traveling the world in search of a higher perspective and a good place to build the foundation for this school.
I am a writer and an artist now, a teacher in the future though I need to learn alot first. I can see where I am going but more importantly I can see where I am.
I learn from everything I do, everything I post in here. I learn about culture and philosophy the easiest as those are my two favorite topics of discussion.
I learn very quickly and I am able to apply to reality what I learn in a patient and thourough way. I like to analyze everything for the sake of analyzing everything. I am natually very curious and have a high capacity for adventure and exploration, especially if its in or to a place I have never been or heard of.
I grew up in the woods of massachusetts. I nowlive ina reletively small city outside of boston. I hate where I live but I know I should stay becasue winter is coming and I have a lot of common sense.
I am against the government in all of its many forms. The media and the church, the elections and the companies. I am against public school, private school, the military, every single law whether it protects me or limits me, law enforcement, firefighters, any governemtn owned building or statue or monument or figure, anything about, affiliated with, and especially in promotion of any government any place at any time. I want it all to be erased and I think I can pull it off if only I get the nerve to stand up and do it. And so I am trying here because I figure I need to start some where, might as well be the internet as it might be the easiest any way. I am learning now what other people think and how they feel about what they want to do with the world. I must denounce killing but I hope some one starts it so that I can be the political head which talks top the authorites about what is going on. That is where I see myself, at the political front, even though I hate politics and feel it will be less relevent on the scale that it is now when the revolution finally does break out. I believe there is more to a revolution than killing people, even though that is a big part. In fact, I don't believe death or killing is very revolutionary at all, but what you do with that killing, what you make it mean, thats where the revolution is and thats where I want to be. I want everyone to know what I think it means becuase I think I could influence peoples minds and get them to know where they are and what they mean in relation to their environments. Consciousness is inevitable, I want to help them see through the illusions and be okay with them, I feel that if I don't, if no one does, then we will never be in any better a place than we are now no matter how many people die for what cause.
And I really like to talk.
I really am more philosophical than I am spiritual. The things which I often express here are reflections of me, but they are not me. I cannot possibly explain all of myself within the boundaries of this website as I cannot possible explain myself from within the boundaries of the human perspective and the human language. I am working on a language of my own so that this expression may someday be easier but it is not nearly as easy as I once believed it to be and it is not nearly finished.
When I start something and I believe it should be finished, I finish it or else I get upset but eventually move on to something new. I am never bored,even when I am bored.
I have explored many places in my mind that I am not sure many others have explored. Nothing in my reality shows me that many people have gone to the places I have in their own minds. My experiences have and continue to change me.
I like debate, especially when I feel confident in my opinion or if I am looking to learn some thing.
I do not like to be restricted by anyone other than myself, and I only limit myself when I feel I have something to learn.
I feel the pain of others on top of my own and it crushes me until I am empty. And then I bounce back and am crushed again. That is how I learn my lesson, by being crushed, my ego dies, I am transformed and it happens again.
I know myself very well, and astrology helped me reach that understanding.
I like astrology becasue it means whatever I decide it means.
Here is my astrological birth chart:
Sun: Taurus in the house of Leo
Moon: Sagittarius in the house of Pisces
Mercury: Gemini in the house of Virgo
Venus: Aries in the house of Cancer
Mars: Gemini in the house of Libra
Jupiter: Aries in the house of Cancer
Saturn: Sagittarius in the house of Pisces
Uranus: Sagittarius in the house of Aries
Neptune: Capricorn in the house of Aries
Pluto: Scorpio in the house of Capricorn
Ascendant: Sagittarius
Those words in themselves have no meaning, and for that reason they may mean whatever I want them to. If you know anythign about astrology, then you might read this and know everything ever about me.
Don't be quick to underestimate the power of astrology when it is used correctly. Don't just write it off as new age garbage if you don't understand it.
I know it is garbage becasue I know astrology, but I also know it has many wonderful uses when used correctly becasue it offers so much room for freedom and exploration and creation. It is a good tool to use toward furthering the development of the consciousness, but like all concepts and philosophies it is a door to walk through and not a room to stand in. I do not suggest putting any stock in these symbols, but if you are looking for some meaingless symbols to give meaning to this is a good place to play.
I read tarot cards for the same reasons I play with atrology. I like symbols, a lot, I like to use them whenever I want to for whatever reason I want to. I do not take anything seriously or expect anything to ever stay the same for very long. In fact, I like change more than anything, because change is everything and transformation is stability and I crave stability.
I don't know what else to say about myself.
I gues there is nothing else.
I do not think I am anything. I think at my core I am nothing at all, but since I have a body (space) and a life (time) and I am constantly changing, then I exist. But I don't understand fully what I mean by that, though I know I will soon enough.
I am honest.
Honesty is more important than being correct because by being honest I learn to be correct.

[rioters bloc]

Originally posted by gilhyle+Nov 5 2005, 08:02 AM--> (gilhyle @ Nov 5 2005, 08:02 AM) [quote]rioters [email protected] 3 2005, 10:17 PM
yes.




Is that mostly aggresive posters who want to destroy the board or people of right wing views who want to debate ? [/b]
they're dealt with in different ways. if they are just aggressive and aren't interested in engaging in debate, just trying to piss people off, are sexist/homophobic/racist/anti-semitic then they're banned. if they actually want to have discussions, then they're restricted to OI

[Tungsten]

Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2005, 10:46 PM
I bleed every single month, right on schedual. I bleed from a wound that does not ever close, it will never heal. That time is worse than hell for me. I cannot describe the pain. Een calling it pain takes away from the experience.
Men want to fuck that hole and I do not agree with them. If I allow a man to have sex with me, or if a man just decides to have sex with me, a baby might pass through my body, and if they who run this country, my sworn enemy, have their way, I won't be allowed to kill the baby before it decides to come out, I 'll have to wait until after or else feed it or else give it to the system, my enemy.
Oh brother. What have I let myself in for in coming here? :blink:

[rioters bloc]

Originally posted by Tungsten+Nov 5 2005, 10:46 AM--> (Tungsten @ Nov 5 2005, 10:46 AM)
[email protected] 4 2005, 10:46 PM
I bleed every single month, right on schedual. I bleed from a wound that does not ever close, it will never heal. That time is worse than hell for me. I cannot describe the pain. Een calling it pain takes away from the experience.
Men want to fuck that hole and I do not agree with them. If I allow a man to have sex with me, or if a man just decides to have sex with me, a baby might pass through my body, and if they who run this country, my sworn enemy, have their way, I won't be allowed to kill the baby before it decides to come out, I 'll have to wait until after or else feed it or else give it to the system, my enemy.
Oh brother. What have I let myself in for in coming here? :blink: [/b]
hahaha full-on, i didn't read the post past the first line, you just made me wanna read it all now ;) but..no. cant be fucked.

[gilhyle]

Originally posted by rioters bloc+Nov 4 2005, 11:54 PM--> (rioters bloc @ Nov 4 2005, 11:54 PM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 5 2005, 10:46 AM

[email protected] 4 2005, 10:46 PM
I bleed every single month, right on schedual. I bleed from a wound that does not ever close, it will never heal. That time is worse than hell for me. I cannot describe the pain. Een calling it pain takes away from the experience.
Men want to fuck that hole and I do not agree with them. If I allow a man to have sex with me, or if a man just decides to have sex with me, a baby might pass through my body, and if they who run this country, my sworn enemy, have their way, I won't be allowed to kill the baby before it decides to come out, I 'll have to wait until after or else feed it or else give it to the system, my enemy.
Oh brother. What have I let myself in for in coming here? :blink:
hahaha full-on, i didn't read the post past the first line, you just made me wanna read it all now ;) but..no. cant be fucked.[/b]
[QUOTE]

Wake up and smell the blood

[KC]

I am 18 years old and I am poor. I would be homeless if it wasn't for the charity of a few very good friends.

If you're poor then what the fuck are you doing with internet access?


I am a female in a world full of men, run by men, which worships men.

Yes, the world is run by men and worships men and females are nothing but a tool used to ensure the continuation of the male species. :rolleyes:


I work at a hardware store owned by a man, most of the customers are men, most of those men are between the ages of 20 and 75.

You work in a hardware store. You should expect the majority of your customers to be men. You should expect your boss to be a man. You work in a hardware store. Do I need to repeat myself?



I bleed every single month, right on schedual. I bleed from a wound that does not ever close, it will never heal. That time is worse than hell for me. I cannot describe the pain. Even calling it pain takes away from the experience.
Men want to fuck that hole and I do not agree with them. If I allow a man to have sex with me, or if a man just decides to have sex with me, a baby might pass through my body, and if they who run this country, my sworn enemy, have their way, I won't be allowed to kill the baby before it decides to come out, I 'll have to wait until after or else feed it or else give it to the system, my enemy.

Roe v. Wade won't be overturned; you can breathe easily (or meditate, whatever you do).


There are too many people in the world, and most of them work for my enemy.

Who's your enemy? The government? Or men? Or big business? Stop being so fucking cryptic; learn to write like a normal person and a discussion can be had because people will finally be able to understand you!


It bothers me that people still call it a "sunset" when clearly the sun is not setting but instead the earth is spinning.

The sun is setting over the horizon, genius.



There are many common misconceptions much like this one which really bother me and which I have decided I should change about the human consciousness as the human consciousness is my own consciousness.

If you think that's a problem, then you really are an idiot.


I see the relationship between all points of consciousness. There is but one consciousness, however there are many points of consciousness and many different experiences and objects to be conscious of and so that is why it appears that there is more than one consciousness but I am certain that the seperation is nothing more than an illusion caused by time and space alone.

Socratic Sophist?

I'm not even going to continue with this garbage.

[Publius]

It bothers me that people still call it a "sunset" when clearly the sun is not setting but instead the earth is spinning.

But if we called it an 'Earthspin', we would have no way to denote if it was morning or evening, now would we?

Furthermore, 'Earthspin' denotes every single second of every single day, as the Earth is always spinning, and is therefore useless as a time designation.


I absolutely cannot stand to read any more of your posts; does this forum have an ignore function?

I read it, and I feel as if I was just smacked in the head with a book on New-Age religion.


Can you even tell me what this MEANS!? :
I see the relationship between all points of consciousness. There is but one consciousness, however there are many points of consciousness and many different experiences and objects to be conscious of and so that is why it appears that there is more than one consciousness but I am certain that the seperation is nothing more than an illusion caused by time and space alone.

What. The. Fuck.

'Seperation is an illusion cased by time and space'?

There is no reality OUTSIDE OF time and space.

Time and space ARE.

'What am I'? Time and space.

What are you? Time and space.

What is anything? Time and space.

EVERYTHING IS TIME AND SPACE.

Anything that isn't TIME AND SPACE DOESN'T EXIST by any reasonable understanding of the word/physics.

[Publius]

To sum this up quickly:

http://redwing.hutman.net/%7Emreed/warriorshtm/bong.htm
http://redwing.hutman.net/%7Emreed/warriorshtm/garble.htm
http://redwing.hutman.net/%7Emreed/warriorshtm/loopy.htm



There is nothing,

That's the single biggest contradiction I've ever seen.

'There is nothing'.

Re-read that.



the universe is meaningless except for where consciousness is concerned.

Where do you read this stuff?

The universe has no meaning, period.

Just as a rock has no 'meaning', the Universe has none.

'Conciousness' isn't 'concerned' with anything, and does not provide meaning to anything.



Consciousness is a product of the universal digestion.



No it isn't,

I'm glad we agree on something.



I am unsure as to whether this is the purpose of that digestion system, but I am certain that consciousness is a product of it.

What?



Without something to be conscious of, there is no consciousness.

What does that even MEAN!?




Without consciousness to be consciouss of it, everything has no meaning, it has no existence.

What are you talking about?

Are you smoking crack?

Are you insane?

WHY CAN YOU NOT THINK PROPERLY!?

Why can't you write like a normal person; properly? Every single one of you sentances starts with a subject pronoun: It's infuriating.

Why can't you make sense?

Why is reading your tripe making so angry?

[JKP]

This is the most superlative case against religion and spirtuality I have ever seen...ever.

Religious theocracies, inquisitions, and genocides pale in comparison to this grotesque display of meta-physical bullshit.


I am astonished that some members here have actually committed their precious minutes to deciphering this mystical mumbo-jumbo. I wasn't enough of a masochist to read through the convulated vicissitudes that I saw before me; I'm sure I'll manage without these nostrums.

Additionally, her monomania with the word "consciousness" is exasperating.

[Publius]

This is the most superlative case against religion and spirtuality I have ever seen...ever.

Religious theocracies, inquisitions, and genocides pale in comparison to this grotesque display of meta-physical bullshit.


I am astonished that some members here have actually committed their precious minutes to deciphering this mystical mumbo-jumbo. I wasn't enough of a masochist to read through the convulated vicissitudes that I saw before me; I'm sure I'll manage without these nostrums.

Additionally, her monomania with the word "consciousness" is exasperating.

Nice vocabulary.

I feel impelled to combat her consequential, feckless prosaic prose with trucelence but my forbearance is now at it's nadir.

[gilhyle]

I find, JKP, Publius and Lazar, that your response to this quite useless.

Listen to yourselves, injuncting someone to be 'normal', accusing her of lying with no evidence of substance, taking metaphors literally as a cheap device to express indignant exasperation.

I think the admin made a mistake restricting her, but in a way that doesn't matter. I accept what I'm told when I'm told the board needs protection, I accept that judgements have to be made and time-constraints reasonably mean they might have to be made without a proper procedure to avoid miscarrages of judgement. All that is fine, best of luck to the Admin, they run what seems to be the best left discussion board around and all credit to them. I'd like to think in a quiet moment, they might get an opportunity to re-think that decision, but if not, so be it.

But there is an insistence on a narrow-minded literalism and intolerance in the objections to this poster that reflect what is among the worst features of left culture in many countries.

Sometimes, you only learn by listening.

The only time I took part in a substantial thread that Gnosis also took part in - on abortion - I didn't agree with many things she wrote and like others I wondered seriously about her writing style. In amongst your carping venom is at least one (repeated) point of subtance about how to write. If it wasn't suffused with such venom, it would be a decent act of solidarity to give her that feedback.

From where I watch, she looks strange, hard to listen to, but with something there, something of the anger, the hope, the articulation (yes!) that opens up possibiliities. In your responses, I find a mechanical submission to your learning that is without hope or possibilities.

Its not much of choice. But you guys don't win in my book (not that that will give you any sleepless nights). She is in a place from which she can grow. You ain't goin anywhere.

[Publius]

Originally posted by [email protected] 8 2005, 08:40 PM









Listen to yourselves, injuncting someone to be 'normal', accusing her of lying with no evidence of substance, taking metaphors literally as a cheap device to express indignant exasperation.

'Normal' as in rational, yes. Normal is in based in reality. Normal as in not making totally moronic and asinine 'metaphors' about nothing at all and then somehow saying the quote in my sig.

What she's 'saying' is unsuffereable drivel. It's meaningless.

She as well be uttering random syllables; she would achieve the same effect.


I think the admin made a mistake restricting her, but in a way that doesn't matter. I accept what I'm told when I'm told the board needs protection, I accept that judgements have to be made and time-constraints reasonably mean they might have to be made without a proper procedure to avoid miscarrages of judgement. All that is fine, best of luck to the Admin, they run what seems to be the best left discussion board around and all credit to them. I'd like to think in a quiet moment, they might get an opportunity to re-think that decision, but if not, so be it.

Hell, I'm not even on your guy's 'side' and I see the logic in restricting her.

She's more religious than most Christians, only her 'religion' is one even MORE devoid of sense, logic, rationality or physical constraints.

To wit, she's making shit up and saying it's revalatory. Perhaps you haven't noticed, but it isn't.

She can respond to me if she chooses to; she can defend herself and rationalize her points but she is NOT above my criticism just because she (And presumably you as well) thinks she is.

If you say something stupid, I'm going to call you out on it, even if it's extraordinarily stupid.

Why does she have some special privilage to post her opinion and be from invective?



But there is an insistence on a narrow-minded literalism and intolerance in the objections to this poster that reflect what is among the worst features of left culture in many countries.

I'm not a leftist, but anway.

'Narrow minded literalism', as in saying what you actually fucking mean?

"I'm going to kill my neighbor", when divorced from 'narrow minded liberalism' means let's to eat ice cream?

You're just as bad as she is.

Her inane 'metaphors', pointless non-sequitirs and an obnoxious writing style that prefaces every sentance with 'I' and is so solely focused on herself that it nearly defies explanation, says nothing about my intolerance, only her intolerablity.



Sometimes, you only learn by listening.

Sometimes.

But the incoherent ramblings of an insane person garner you little in the way of learning.



The only time I took part in a substantial thread that Gnosis also took part in - on abortion - I didn't agree with many things she wrote and like others I wondered seriously about her writing style. In amongst your carping venom is at least one (repeated) point of subtance about how to write. If it wasn't suffused with such venom, it would be a decent act of solidarity to give her that feedback.

I have an acerbic writing style; so what?

Are my points less lucid? Is my logic less sound? Does her bullshit smell any sweeter?

It's not of consequence as the point remains the same.

I find what she writes insufferable, almost inexplicable in its ability to leave my mouth agape.



From where I watch, she looks strange, hard to listen to, but with something there, something of the anger, the hope, the articulation (yes!) that opens up possibiliities.

'Articulate' would be the last word I would use to describe her.

She opens up no possibilities other than new possible heights of self-imposed ignorance, self-delusion and misplace haughtyness.



In your responses, I find a mechanical submission to your learning that is without hope or possibilities.

'Hope' of what?

Hope of buying her philoso-religio-useless crap?

No, there isn't any hope of that.

Possibility of understanding what the hell she's saying?

THere's nothing there either, because she isn't saying anything.



Its not much of choice. But you guys don't win in my book (not that that will give you any sleepless nights). She is in a place from which she can grow.[/quote

Grow stupid, perhaps.

[quote]
You ain't goin anywhere.

Au contraire.

Existing soundly in logic and good-sense, I have somewhere to go, for I believe it exists.

Presumably to her, 'reality is an illusion' and she literally doesn't have anywhere to go.

:lol:

Tell me what actual redeeming value her 'points' have?

What ARE her points?

Do you even know?

Does she?

[gilhyle]

You comment:

"I have an acerbic writing style; so what?
Are my points less lucid? Is my logic less sound?"

They are less useful, both to others ....and to you.

Noone wants to be above criticism - try to listen to what is being said as well as saying what you want to say.

[KC]

Try responding to his whole post.

[BuyOurEverything]

What ARE her points?

Do you even know?

Does she?

Do any of us know what we are saying?

Our words are just vibrations in the air and a product of our consiousness.

Ideas are all around us, all just different parts os a whole, we just need to listen...

[Publius]

Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2005, 12:29 AM




They are less useful, both to others ....and to you.

How are they less useful?

Becaues it's combative? Perhaps I'm combative. In fact, I am.

I'm not here to trade idle chit-chat about 'energy vibrations' and 'universal harmony' and all that meaningless bullshit that makes me want to scream so loudly I deafen myself and never have to hear it again.

If she wants to make points about a debate, or enter into a debate, as she did, she's part of the debate.

Do realize how ludicrious this is? It's like debating with someone who thinks the world is flat, and having you come in and tell me to 'simmer down and look at things differently'.

Am I the only sane person left?



Noone wants to be above criticism - try to listen to what is being said as well as saying what you want to say.

What does this even mean?

Are you following me?

You can't listen to what is being 'said' as it's bat-fuck insane!

It's like asking me to interpret the meows of a cat, a very detached, metaphysical cat.

[Publius]

Do any of us know what we are saying?

Our words are just vibrations in the air and a product of our consiousness.

Ideas are all around us, all just different parts os a whole, we just need to listen...

But is that whole a part of something greater, OR DID I JUST BLOW YOUR FUCKING MIND!?

[Gnosis]

I absolutely cannot stand to read any more of your posts; does this forum have an ignore function?

If you wish to ignore me, then do so. It is you that has made the choice to step into that which I have created. If you don't like it, then stop reading what I write and stop talking to me becasue I do not need you just as much as you do not need me.

I do not believe I am above any critisism, I like being critisized.

Maybe you don't understand me because you've never taken the time to listen to me or taken the time to realise that which I do, or maybe it is because I do not write well and I have no real point.
Either way, why does it matter?

I know I am "wrong" when I say "there is nothing", is it impossible to be "wrong" delibretly to prove a point or am I obviously just not realising what I am saying and thinking I am saying somethingI am not?

Yeah, what are my points, and what makes them so "new-age" and religious?
As far as I am concerned, I am dealing not with things which are "new" but things which have been around for a very long time.

If you don't know what my point is, why do you say I am wrong?

And even if I am "wrong", why do you feel that gives you the right to come down on me so harshly and kick me around like I am your new play thing to be explited?

Why do you insist on paying attention to things which make you upset?

Why comment on something you did not read? Is your post more important than mine if all yours says is "i did not even read this"?

What exactly is it about my style that you find so objectional?


I'm not here to trade idle chit-chat about 'energy vibrations' and 'universal harmony' and all that meaningless bullshit that makes me want to scream so loudly I deafen myself and never have to hear it again.

First of all, meaning and relevence are a matter of opinion.
Second, then why the fuck are you talking to ME?
Don't you know, all I ever talk about is the kind of stuff you think is so obviously stupid and useless!
If you don't want to talk about philosophy and religion and spiritality and vibrations and energy and light and harmony and peace and love and infinity and all those concepts you think are so shitty, then do not ever talk to me or listen to me or read anything I will ever or have ever written becasue chances are I will only make you upset and I do not want to have to deal with upset people unless they are willing to deal with me!
DO NOT SCREAM AT ME I WILL NOT LISTEN TO YOU AND YOU WILL NEVER GET YOU POINT ACROSS BECAUSE YOU WILL NEVER HAVE A CHANCE TO HEAR YOUR OWN THOUGHTS OVER THE SOUND OF YOUR OWN VOICE.


Do realize how ludicrious this is? It's like debating with someone who thinks the world is flat, and having you come in and tell me to 'simmer down and look at things differently'.

I do not believe the world is flat, though I do believe it may appear to be so and so the observation of a flat world is not incorrect.
If you are dealing with me, it is important that you listen to me or else you will never understand anythingI am saying.
I will always listen to you, even if I disagree or you are being mean.


What does this even mean?

To listen, one must first stop talking or else you will never hear what is being said.

What is being said?

Well, I started off by saying we as a species need to change and let go of old habits which stop us from reaching our highest potential as living conscious beings.

If you really want to know you'll read again what I have written.

[JKP]

Admittedly our rejoinders have been harsh, but it does not mean we are attacking you. I don't think anyone here has a problem with you, as a person. What we do have a problem with are your ideas.

[KC]

Wow, Gnosis made a semi-normal post! Congratulations!!!

[Gnosis]

I do not think any one has the ability to have a problem with my person as they have never witnessed my person.
Also, I do not feel attacked, really, but I don't exactly feel respected.
When it comes to my ideas, I feel generally misunderstood.
Sometimes it is hard for me to fully explain exactly what I mean, there are boundaries that are not easy to overcome when attempting to communicate some ideas in forums like these.

Here is my philosophy as communicated as well as I can at this point:
The properties of the universe are infinite as the universe is infinite and the universe is everything.
Therefore, to be a property of the universe, a property must be one with everything.
I have found at least one property of the universe whereever I have looked for it, that property is reletivity.
All things, events, experiences, times and space are reletive.
There is nothing which does not exist in relation to something else.
However, this may not be considered "truth" as the entire universal existence as a whole is one and I have yet to find anything to compare it to beside non-existence, however I cannot overcome the idea that non-existence does not exist therefore I cannot compare it to existence because to do so would mean that it actually does exist therefore defeating the purpose of comparing existence to it as I would simply be comparing existence to itself yet again.
Also I have found that transformation also exists on all levels infinitly.
This leads me to believe the most basic principle of the entire universe is reletive transformation.
All is ever changing but only in relation to itself.
There is one mind, and all things exist within the borders of that mind.
That mind is limitation, but it is ever expanding and so it is limited but it is unlimited at the same time.
In this I see that freedom and limitation are insperable and that to have either you must have both.
It is limited only up to the point that it believes or knows that it is limited, but it is unlimited becasue it is always changing and growing and it may change and grow in any way that it does.

I have found that when it comes to politics and interhuman relationships, the world is in need of a change and it will change reletively soon.
I am unsure of the way in which it will go, but I do have a few suggestions.
I think we can all start off by being honest with eachother.
I think all conflict started becasue of lying and liars and the world is not safe becasue of lies and liars.
I think everyone should be honest at all times, even if they risk being "incorrect".
Sometimes it is more important to be honest than it is to be "correct".
We should breed people to be more honest, not allow them to get ahead in life or to have power because they are really good at lying and making it sound like truth, or really good at only saying part of the truth while leaving out the rest of it.
I think if there was a mass movement which focused its energy on being honest while at the same time working on bringing the human consciousness to a "higher" level of awareness we could come to a point in history when everyone trusts eachother becasue everyone knows for certain that everyone is honest.
Trust is incredibly important and we are lacking it in society.
With trust comes peace of mind, with peace of mind comes a relaxed body, with a relaxed body comes a relaxed society. And a relaxed society is safe because everyone is at peace with their selves becasue they are honest and trust the people around them.
And then we can develope a true and lasting feeling of love for one another becasue there will be nothing to get in our way as we would all be honest and at peace.
And that is how I see us finding that state of bliss we have been searching for since we became conscious beings.
Of course it will take a long time at first, not everyone will want to be honest becaseu sometimes it hurts. But if we remember to love eachother no matter what, if we remember what our goels are and what we could acompish if only we would try, if we remember to accept people for who they are and remember that we are all existing in relation to eachother, which means we give meaning to each other, which means we are eachother and we are all one with the grand mind which is, then we can live in the world we truely want, not the world built on lies that we think we need.

If we are honest with the intent of seeing the universe as it is and for what it is, we will see it.
We have the ability to be so much morew than those running this country believe we have the ability to be.
They say "God created you, God is your master, bow down to Jesus, he is your king and you are nothing more than a sheep to be herded" and I do not agree.
I say "Yes I created myself, For I am God and so are you. God is my master becasue I am God and I am my master, I bow to myself only and you are me and so we should bow to eachother as we are all mirrors for eachothers souls, You do not control me, I control me and you control you but we are one and we are the same, I am no sheep, I am a woman, you are a man, we are our own sheperds and we are our own flock, let us be ourselves and be ourselves honestly."

And some people will say "But some people are honestly dangerous, if we allow them to do whatever they wan tfor the sake of honest, then they will kill and rape"
And I say "Yes they will, but that is their nature and if you do not like it you may kill them first or hurt them back if that is your nature. If you wish to not kill, do not kill, and trust in those around you to not kill, but if they kill, let them kill for we all must die someday, so will they and no matter how it is done it is all right and okay."
There will be death as death is natural, but there will also be life becasue life is natural. Do not look at death as the "end", there is no end, there is but change and change is not only infinite but it is the only way to keep the universe going.
It is not wrong to die by the hand of your self, and your enemy is you.
Nothing is wrong, we'll all be okay, TRUST ME TRUST ME TRUST ME TRUST ME!

And that is all for now, but surely more will come as I can never stop myself from knowing what I do and needing to give it to you.

One thing before I go:
If you do not understand, nd you do not want to understand, then this is not for you and you should move on to what is for you.
If you do not understand and you would like to know better, then ask me questions or find out more some other way.
If you do understand and you have something to add, please do, I need to know things better myself.
Let us work together for a better world, I know a way, help me to communicate that which I am thinking.

[KC]

The properties of the universe are infinite as the universe is infinite and the universe is everything.

The universe isn't infinite. It is finite.

[Publius]

Live and let live.

I've read both of your posts, found them to be more of the same and concluded that further discussion was a waste of time.

All the best.

[gilhyle]

Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2005, 08:22 PM
Live and let live.

I've read both of your posts, found them to be more of the same and concluded that further discussion was a waste of time.

All the best.
good post.

[Columbia]

Imagine pontification that wasn't as long as a Harry Potter story.

[Gnosis]

The universe isn't infinite. It is finite.

I disagree and this is why: I was studying this matter for a long time because I was not sure if anything I thought was in any way correct outside my own personal opinion. Through practice I found that the universe is both finite and infinte at the same time and cannot exist in any other way.
To be not finite is to be finite.
Some qualities exist in everything at every level, and that is why I call those qualities infinite, they are not limited to one example at one time, and they do not change except in relation to that which they are applied to.
One example I have access to is reletivity. Everything is reletive to everything, and so I say reletivity is infinite.
What is finite is the human lifespan, I will not exist in this form forever, I will change, I will die. But the universe is not so finite so long as it keeps changing, though all of its pieces are finite, the whole is not because the smaller parts are.
The change of the finite brings about, or better said, actually is the infinity of the whole.

[Publius]

Everything is reletive to everything, and so I say reletivity is infinite.

But 'everthing' is finite. There are only so many 'things'. So if there are a limited number of 'things' (And there are, as you admitted) than there is a limit to how much something can be relative to anything.

For example, let's say there are 1,000,000 things in the Universe, but each one is totally relative to each other.

Is relativity than infinite?

[gilhyle]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2005, 08:14 PM

Everything is reletive to everything, and so I say reletivity is infinite.

But 'everthing' is finite. There are only so many 'things'. So if there are a limited number of 'things' (And there are, as you admitted) than there is a limit to how much something can be relative to anything.

For example, let's say there are 1,000,000 things in the Universe, but each one is totally relative to each other.

Is relativity than infinite?
While I dont want to undo this new tone, can I ask what an amount of relativity is as in 'there is a limit to how much something can be relative to anything ?' Is the concept of 'relativity to' quantifiable without two specified things ?

[Publius]

While I dont want to undo this new tone, can I ask what an amount of relativity is as in 'there is a limit to how much something can be relative to anything ?' Is the concept of 'relativity to' quantifiable without two specified things ?

It is quantifiable if there is a set amount of things.

The 'quantity' of the relativity would be so rediculously large it be beyone pointless to try to explain, but it would be 'finite' in the actual sense.

If you have 10 objects in a room, there is a limit to how 'relative to each other' they can be, using whatever criteria you like.

Add more objects and make the 'room' the whole Universe, and the point remains the same.

[gilhyle]

I'm not sure the point of discussing this; maybe I'm just illustrating a point. But if you don't have two AGREED objects (things), I don't think the quantity of relativity is finite because even if yu have one agreed objects, the second object is open to endless re-definition, thus endlessly extending the amount of relativity. This would be because the extent of relativity is not just a function of the finite character of the universe, but also of the conventions we adopt as to the definition of objects/things - which is not finite.

Secondly (less fundamentally) I don't understand what the term of measurement of 'relativity' would be in this sense - is it just distance, or distance by mass or what ?

That is even assuming that one accepts that the Universe is finite. Not saying it isn't. But you draw on an observation/claim that the universe is 'finite', without it being obvious what that means - that there a finite number of fundamental particles. Don't think that works anymore. What other sense is it finite ?

[Publius]

I'm not sure the point of discussing this; maybe I'm just illustrating a point. But if you don't have two AGREED objects (things), I don't think the quantity of relativity is finite because even if yu have one agreed objects, the second object is open to endless re-definition, thus endlessly extending the amount of relativity. This would be because the extent of relativity is not just a function of the finite character of the universe, but also of the conventions we adopt as to the definition of objects/things - which is not finite.

Ah, but it is.

There is a limit to how many conventions you can adopt, or whatever.

There is a limit, if only because the Universe will end eventually, and because it began at one point.

If they were INFINITE, they would have always been happening; they weren't, so they aren't.

I don't think you're applying the term properly.

INFINITE means always happen, always is, always, no limit, no number, no possibility in change.

Anything that doesn't fit this isn't infinite, and good luck finding something that does.



Secondly (less fundamentally) I don't understand what the term of measurement of 'relativity' would be in this sense - is it just distance, or distance by mass or what ?

It doesn't REALLY matter: All of them are finite.




That is even assuming that one accepts that the Universe is finite. Not saying it isn't. But you draw on an observation/claim that the universe is 'finite', without it being obvious what that means - that there a finite number of fundamental particles. Don't think that works anymore. What other sense is it finite ?

That there are not an infinite number of individual points inside of the Universe.

That fits well enough.

Since the Universe has a finite number of points, and a finite time of beggining (And possibly an end) it, and consequently nothing in it, cannot be infinite.

[Gnosis]

When I say "Reletivity is infinite" I say that it may be applied to everything on all levels of existence without exception so long as even one thing exists.
Relationships between things will always exist so long as even one thing exists.

I see transformation, never ending or begining. Nothing may be created or destryed, all is transformation.
Change is the only constant I have ever found certainty in. In that way, change is infinite, there is no staying the same, ever, unless that which is staying the same is the infinite process of change.
And so there is staying the same, forever, so long as it is still changing, and it will never stop and it never had a begining.
And in that way, the universe is both finite and infinite at the same time. It is finite because it is infinite, and it is infinite because it is finite.
One may not be without the other.

[gilhyle]

I guess the point that interests me is when you say "There is a limit to how many conventions you can adopt, or whatever." That is not at all clear to me - the sense of infinite I am using here is the same as the sense that applies to sentences in a language. Notwithstanding that the number of words in a language may be finite, I recall accepting long ago (didn't Chomky claim this ?), that the number of sentences that can be constructed is not finite.

I find it hard to see how, at any point in time, that there isn't always another conventional agreement defining an object that can be constructed no matter how many have been accepted. Wouldn't that be the effect of time ?

[Publius]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14 2005, 04:07 PM





When I say "Reletivity is infinite" I say that it may be applied to everything on all levels of existence without exception so long as even one thing exists.
Relationships between things will always exist so long as even one thing exists.


'All levels of existence'?

There is only one 'level': existence.

And relationships will exist as long as things exist, but only a finite number of them.


I see transformation, never ending or begining. Nothing may be created or destryed, all is transformation.

Except that's demonstrably untrue.

The Universe was created, and thus everything in the Universe was created.

And there's a chance it may be destroyed.


Change is the only constant I have ever found certainty in. In that way, change is infinite, there is no staying the same, ever, unless that which is staying the same is the infinite process of change.

Because you have only lived a few years in a small part of a Universe.

Change is the only constant NOW, but was it always?

Will it always be?

'Infinite', as you apply it, loses all meaning.


And so there is staying the same, forever, so long as it is still changing, and it will never stop and it never had a begining.

Meaningless bullshit.

It did have a beggining. If didn't, it wouldn't be 'changing' at all, now would it? The term loses its meaning without the concept of begginging and end.

Something that never began and will never end can't change.

It invalidates the term.

How can something change without having a beggining or end? What would it change FROM? What would it change TO?

Without a beggining, end, or other limits, 'change' is meaningless, or rather change means everything, including 'not change' and thus becomes meaningless.


And in that way, the universe is both finite and infinite at the same time.

Which is paradox, and pardoxes do not exist in nature, only in language, which leads me to believe your langauge is ambigous and flawed.



It is finite because it is infinite, and it is infinite because it is finite.
One may not be without the other.

Which makes no sense at all.

It literally makes no sense.

Where do people come up with this stuff?

[Publius]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14 2005, 06:46 PM




I guess the point that interests me is when you say "There is a limit to how many conventions you can adopt, or whatever." That is not at all clear to me - the sense of infinite I am using here is the same as the sense that applies to sentences in a language. Notwithstanding that the number of words in a language may be finite, I recall accepting long ago (didn't Chomky claim this ?), that the number of sentences that can be constructed is not finite.

Not true.

You can form sentences like "He said she that he said that she that she said that he said..." infinitely, so the number of sentances has no theoretical limit.


I find it hard to see how, at any point in time, that there isn't always another conventional agreement defining an object that can be constructed no matter how many have been accepted. Wouldn't that be the effect of time ?

Huh?

I don't see how this follows from you a priori assumptions or even makes sense.

[Gnosis]

Publius and I have not the same understanding.

I will descibe to you the image in my head:
There is nothing, but that nothing is and so I will call it Zero, but really it is One, but since it has nothing to compare to, no point to exist in relation to, it is Zero. Picture this zero as one, it is energized, like some sort of mass of electric jello with no real form and no real mass but is does exist but it has no real form.
This mass has no motion as there is no space for it to move in relation to, but it is not still as it does still exist. (Assume that all things which exist have movement without exception, and if it does not move, it cannot exist) I picture this energy mass as having a red glow, but I realise that glow is an illusion when I try to focus on it harder. This is what was in the "begining", it was nothing but it was anyway, the formless void energy field. (please forgive my description if it is too unbelieveable to understand, I cannot think of any better words to describe this image)
This energy field has a nature, it is to expand, but it is everything as it is nothing at the same time, it is the only, it is nothing, it equals one because it equals Zero.
In order to expand any further, in order to be anything other than it is, it needs to multiply, it needs to exist in relation to something else so that it may hold meaning, it may have space and measurment. And so it must divide itself in order to multiply it self, in doing so it now is a something because now there is a point of reference to which it may be compared. This may be expressed as so: 0=2.
And then the division is to expand, as that is its nature, and so 2 become three and three become four and no longer is there nothing, but four somethings, four dimensions of comparision, four points of existence.
And the division continues as long as it can, and it can for infinity so long as it does.
And in "the end" all existence will return to the void state, there will be one and so there will be nothing, but the nature of that nothing is to expand, and the only way it may expand itself is to multiply, and the only way it can multiply is through divsion, and so the cycle is "begun" once again. In that way, there is a begining point and an ending point, those points are points of reference, they exist in relation to each other and may be considered any point ever, every point is a begining and every point is an end. But the cycle never stops, and the cycle never ends, how can it begin if it never ends?

By "levels of existence" I mean levels like the microscopic and macroscopic, emotional, intellectual, reletive levels of one existence. All levels are finite in their seleves, i suppose, but the largest picture I understand has no number, like Pi it is incredibly large and seemingly endless with so many possiblitities that it can go on forever and never wear it self out or be at an end.

There is always I chance that I may be wrong, do not think I do not know that in all of my assumptions. But it is apparently my nature to assume things about my nature and I think it is healthy to be honest and to discuss my opinion even if I may not be correct. Thank you for reminding me that I may not be correct, but if you want to have a conversation that is not about my personal correctness than I will say that you do not have to worry about it any more and you can get on to what might be considered more important now and here.

I think the first division was light from darkness, and light is the base of all life. I think everything is light, and the universe is digital.

The nature of the universe is such that you don't have to see it all in order to see it all. I can sit in an empty room all alone and if I know how to sit correctly I can experience everything all at once.

And the universe is a paradox, otherwise it could not exist. Without its opposite to exist in relation to it, no concept has any meaning, and a pure understanding of a concept is acomplished by combining two opposing concepts and seeing their unity. Without finity, ther is no infinity and vice versa. Without change and movement there is no stability. Without freedom there is no limitation, and viceversa. Without red there is no blue, without Gemini there is no Sagittarius, and so on. Without meaning there is all the meaning in the universe. That is why I say the universe in itself is meaningless and it is the function of consciousness to give it meaning, though outside that meaning is no meaning.


see transformation, never ending or begining. Nothing may be created or destryed, all is transformation.

Except that's demonstrably untrue.

The Universe was created, and thus everything in the Universe was created.

And there's a chance it may be destroyed.

How so? Demonstrate how that is untrue, please give me an example if you will.

I say that nothing may ever be created or destroyed because I have heard that scientists cannot destroy an atom of matter, it may only transform into another form of matter. Is this untrue, have I heard wrong, or do I simply not understand as I should?
It may be transformed, I say, it may have the appearence of destruction, that which the matter formed before may not have form any more as a result of this disintegration, but I do not think anything is ever truely destroyed.
Where woiuld it go? There is no place but here, no time but now. It cannot not exist, non existence does not exist unless you count the appearence of non-existence which I consider nothing more than a stubborn illusion, much like time itself.
You can say that a building was destroyed because it was blown up and is no longer a building, but are not the particles, the pieces of that building still in existence, simply in another form which is no longer a building per say?
You can say that a human body dies because it begins to break down and wither and rot, but it does not really disappear never to serve another purpose, it goes into the ground and disintegrates and feeds the soil which feeds the plants, and in that way the body is not destroyed but goes on to serve another purpose which may not be human any more but it is still existent.
And now the question is raised "But what of consciousness, where does consciousness go?"
I may be wrong, I am not really sure, I have not reached a place where I can be certain, though I am certain I should find out soon enough, but I think that consciousness is an entity in itself, it is that void form concentrated and captured inside a skull. I think that when the skull no longer serves the purposes of that consciousness, then that consciousness is set loose from it and joins up with an energy field that is some how surrounding the earth, but we cannot see it with human eyes. And that consciousness field may travel the entire universe, it permeates everything. It is possible to become conscious of it while in the human body, I think many saints and boddisattvas were and still are conscious of it, but it is hard because material reality is so heavy it weights the consciousness which inhabits it.

What do you think?

[Publius]

I think further discussion is pointless.

I think you're smoking crack.

[gilhyle]

I believe the 'universe' you hold in your minds eye can succour you interminably.

And out of love for you, it might also become an aura that you come to glimpse only on the occasion of an accidental meeting with nonchalance.

As a nostalgia it will then remind the old woman of the covert warmth that makes a chain of being back to you and to how true you were.

I wish you that.

[gilhyle]

Originally posted by Publius+Nov 14 2005, 08:22 PM--> (Publius @ Nov 14 2005, 08:22 PM)
[email protected] 14 2005, 06:46 PM




Notwithstanding that the number of words in a language may be finite, I recall accepting long ago (didn't Chomky claim this ?), that the number of sentences that can be constructed is not finite.

Not true.

You can form sentences like "He said she that he said that she that she said that he said..." infinitely, so the number of sentances has no theoretical limit.


I find it hard to see how, at any point in time, that there isn't always another conventional agreement defining an object that can be constructed no matter how many have been accepted. Wouldn't that be the effect of time ?
[/b]
[QUOTE]

Exactly !

So the number of sentences is infinite

Similarly, because with each passage of time at the location at which you are counting, additional relativities come into existence, the universe is similarly infinite.


[Heh, Publius, you better tell me further conversation is pointless or this could go on for infinity. You can skip the 'crack' remarks. ]

[Publius]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2005, 08:34 PM



I believe the 'universe' you hold in your minds eye can succour you interminably.

Eh?




And out of love for you, it might also become an aura that you come to glimpse only on the occasion of an accidental meeting with nonchalance.

How poetic.



As a nostalgia it will then remind the old woman of the covert warmth that makes a chain of being back to you and to how true you were.

Are you playing with one of those 'poetry magnet' sets one puts on his refridgerator?



I wish you that.

Thanks, but I didn't understand a word you said.

[Publius]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2005, 08:47 PM









So the number of sentences is infinite

Theoritically infinite.

There is a difference between that and physically infinite.

For example 'numbers' are infinite, but they're a man made concept.

We can make anything we want infinite by saying it's infinite and agreeing on.

Thought exists only in language.

Nothing is physically infinite, only 'infinite' in the sense that we say so.

Are numbers REALLY infinite? No, they're an abstract concept.

Are sentences REALLY infinte? No, they're nothing but a construct of the mind.

Is the mind infinite? Nope.


Similarly, because with each passage of time at the location at which you are counting, additional relativities come into existence, the universe is similarly infinite.

No it isn't.

There is a definite number of these relativities, no matter how high it may be.


[Heh, Publius, you better tell me further conversation is pointless or this could go on for infinity. You can skip the 'crack' remarks. ]

I 'can' do whatever in the hell I feel like.

I do feel further discussion is pointless, we're not seeing the same thing, but unlike Gnosis (Ironic name, is it not?), you actually seem capable of constructing senentences that convey thoughts or actions and the mere ramblings of quasi-lunatic.

[gilhyle]

Didn't expect you to go with the first reply.

Its not about poetry, its about the sublime. I'd take my wish back, if I'd aimed it at you in the first place - but I wouldn't be so unfeeling as to have done that to you. I aimed it at the spirit within, where my wish belongs.

On the second reply: didn't you sort of agree a few posts back that defining things (the things which have relations of relativity to each other) involves the conventions?

Conventions are not physical, they involve agreement between people. Thus a 'thing' is a subdivision of the total of physical reality as subdivided by conventional agreement between people. People can infinitely change the convention as long as the universe keeps changing over time. If so there is no limit to the number of things that can be defined. Thus, time makes the number of relations in the universe infinite, even given a limited number of points ?

Of course my argument wouldn't work if you said: the number of relations of relativity in the universe at any one moment relative to a defined observer is finite.

[Gnosis]

Thought exists only in language

This I disagree with. This may be true for you, but my thoughts have never been limited to words alone. I think in colors, pictures, smells, tastes, words, music, feelings and lights.


Are numbers REALLY infinite? No, they're an abstract concept

Each number in it self is infinite and exists in relation to the numbers around it which are also infinite. The finite nature of any number is an illusion agreed a upon in order to make a point about a part of the nature of reality. They are abstract and that is a good thing.


Are sentences REALLY infinte? No, they're nothing but a construct of the mind

I do not know about the infinity of a sentence, though I will say anything is possible. 'Nothing but a construct of the mind'? I disagree with that part that says "NOTHING BUT", as if the mind was something simple and so easy to write off. You should value your consciousness and seek truth, don't worry about pointlessness so much, it is obvious to me that you wish to learn and to teach and I think you should do both, but it is also obvious to me that we are all learning something together andI thank you for participating as your lack of presence would alter this conversation and we could never have it this way without you.

Infinity is possible because possibility is. Anything can happen, and everything has, will be, and is happening. There is no end to the possibilities for life and existence in the universe.

Why do you think I am insane or smoke crack?

I have heard so many people say that about me in my life time that it does not even suprise me any more, and I hardly ever even react to it, but this time I am interested because you seem like you are a some what informed or at least intereseted therefore interesting individual, why would some one like you read some one like me and judge me as you have?


Conventions are not physical, they involve agreement between people. Thus a 'thing' is a subdivision of the total of physical reality as subdivided by conventional agreement between people. People can infinitely change the convention as long as the universe keeps changing over time. If so there is no limit to the number of things that can be defined. Thus, time makes the number of relations in the universe infinite, even given a limited number of points ?

Yes. This I agree with.

There is no limit to the number of events or points of reference and no limit to the ways in which they may be defined.
One is only limited to the point one agrees that he is limited, one may always expand beyond limitation to find what appears to be more limitation to be expanded beyond. And in that way, freedom is in limitation. The freedom to be limited in every possible way.

The meaning of a symbol is not the true nature of the symbol. The meaning is superficial, it gives it purpose but does not require a total understanding of the complete object and all of its processes and histories.

I would like to now share with you a theory I have been working on for quite some time.
I will first of state that the universe may be viewed as a process and that process may be likened to the process of digestion. The universe may be labled digestion.
Picture this if you will: The universe is a body which transforms itself in order to transform itself. It destroys itself in oreder to create itself in order to detroy itself so that it may keep on creating itself for the purpose of detroying itself in order to create itself and this could go on forever and it is self perpetuating.
The many atoms and molecules which make up my body were not always part of my body, though they did exist before my body came to be. They were something else, and then they were transformed into what they are now.
When I eat food, I take food into me, assimliate the properties of that food which will benefit me, and then expell that which will not, but that waste goes on and becomes something else, it could theoretically fertalize some grass or feed a fish because it is actually not so simple as "waste" it is a culmination of all the things that I had eaten, plant matter and animal matter and fats and sugars and other vitamins and minerals.
And I become what I did use, what my body did use becomes my body, the rest goes on to become another body of some sort. And then someday I will die, and if I have my way, I will be buried in the woods wrapped in a blanket, and what was once my body will fully disintegrate, all of the molecules and elements of my body will seperate and move on to whatever is next for them, that which is liquid in me will evaporate, that which is to become one with the soil will do so and go on to feed the plants and animals which eat it, and the life process will continue on to transform.
Everything eats, and everything dies. Everything is eaten or used toward the betterment of whatever will use it toward its betterment.

Raw and unorganised, but it is still in the works. What do you think?


I believe the 'universe' you hold in your minds eye can succour you interminably.

And out of love for you, it might also become an aura that you come to glimpse only on the occasion of an accidental meeting with nonchalance.

As a nostalgia it will then remind the old woman of the covert warmth that makes a chain of being back to you and to how true you were.

I wish you that.

Beautiful and sincere.
I thank you for such a rare form of kind expression.
What you sow, so shall you reap.