Question for those who support the DPRK

[JohnTheMarxist]

hello,

I am very interested in learning more about the "socialist countries" China, Laos, Vietnam, Cuba, and the DPRK. I am having a hard time finding information about the DPRK. Are there supporters of the DPRK here and if so can you provide me with some information on the country? Thanks!

[More Fire for the People]

I'm not a supporter of the DPRK's ideoogy of Juche and I'm not to fond of Jim Jong-Il but I support them as a socialist republic.

You can find information about the DPRK here (http://www.korea-dpr.com/) and here (http://www.kcckp.net/en/).
You can read the Constituion of the DPRK here (http://www.kcckp.net/en/great/constitution.php).

[RaiseYourVoice]

"The Leaders are the sun of the nation and mankind"

Well that quote already tells alot about the DPRK... the great leader put above everything.

[bolshevik butcher]

How democratic. What a show of workers power that quote is ;)

I dont understand why jouche is consisered a form of communism. I dont see whats remotley socialsit about it.

[More Fire for the People]

"The Leaders are the sun of the nation and mankind"
Has this ever not been true? Tell me without leaders would we have ever left the Savana?

[Deutsche Ideologie]

Korea is a fascist shithole.

[viva le revolution]

Originally posted by Deutsche [email protected] 16 2005, 06:13 PM
Korea is a fascist shithole.
In what way is it Fascist?

[Deutsche Ideologie]

In the way that there is no democracy, freedom of speech, internet access, etc

Stalinists make me laugh.

[viva le revolution]

Originally posted by Deutsche [email protected] 16 2005, 07:03 PM
In the way that there is no democracy, freedom of speech, internet access, etc

Stalinists make me laugh.
Oh so that is the basis for fascism. Here i thought it meant the the protection of capitalism by vigorous anti-left hysteria based entirely on nationalism and in some cases race hatred. But maybe the definitions are different in your book.Hold on... but you say on one part that it is fascist but on the other it is stalinist, or maybe you are referring to me. Anyways, hope to hear some good criticism based on reason and not catchy one-liners.

[tiger]

DRPK (or North Korea) is not socialist. If it is, the people would not starve.

[viva le revolution]

please give proper arguements based on reason on why i/anyone should not consider the DPRK as not socialist, insted of punchlines

[Deutsche Ideologie]

Originally posted by viva le revolution+Oct 16 2005, 07:12 PM--> (viva le revolution @ Oct 16 2005, 07:12 PM)
Deutsche [email protected] 16 2005, 07:03 PM
In the way that there is no democracy, freedom of speech, internet access, etc

Stalinists make me laugh.
Oh so that is the basis for fascism. Here i thought it meant the the protection of capitalism by vigorous anti-left hysteria based entirely on nationalism and in some cases race hatred. But maybe the definitions are different in your book.Hold on... but you say on one part that it is fascist but on the other it is stalinist, or maybe you are referring to me. Anyways, hope to hear some good criticism based on reason and not catchy one-liners. [/b]
You can't even spell "viva la revolucion" without fucking it up, and you're gonna try and school me on what is fascism?

North Korea is a brutal and murderous kingdom, centered around the personality cults of the "great leaders" who live in palaces while 30% of their population is starving to death daily. You're a fucking tool.

http://www.nkhumanrights.or.kr/jabong/board/data/pds_photo/Chungjin_4.jpg
http://www.nkhumanrights.or.kr/jabong/board/data/pds_photo/Chungjin_3.jpg
http://www.nkhumanrights.or.kr/jabong/board/data/pds_photo/Chungjin_1.jpg
http://www.nkhumanrights.or.kr/jabong/board/data/pds_photo/Chungjin_5.jpg
http://www.nkhumanrights.or.kr/jabong/board/data/pds_photo/Chungjin_6.jpg
http://www.nkhumanrights.or.kr/jabong/board/data/pds_photo/Chungjin_7.jpg
http://www.nkhumanrights.or.kr/jabong/board/data/pds_photo/Chungjin_8.jpg
http://www.nkhumanrights.or.kr/jabong/board/data/pds_photo/Chungjin_9.jpg

[tiger]

Originally posted by viva le [email protected] 16 2005, 07:41 PM
please give proper arguements based on reason on why i/anyone should not consider the DPRK as not socialist, insted of punchlines
If it is, the people would not starve.

That is enough, isn't it?

[Forward Union]

They are begging big bussiness to fuck the working class....

http://www.korea-dpr.com/bus1.htm

[More Fire for the People]

What the capitalist call "palaces" in Korea are in fact libaries for students to improve their education. All "palaces" are open to the public.

A kingdom would include a king, yet North Korea doesn't even have a president. So how can you call it a kingdom?

If 30% of the population died of starvation daily, wouldn't all of North Korea be dead in 4 days? No, the DPRK has food shortages because there is little farmland.

[JohnTheMarxist]

Okay well so far I haven't really gotten an answer. This thread has degenerated into another bash the DPRK mindlessly thread. Just because a nation has starving people, does not mean that it cannot be socialist. Just because a country developes a socialist economy, this does not mean that the country will become a paradise. Only 20% of the land is farmable land, they had the worst natural disasters ever in the last decade, and most of their major trading partners collapsed. I am simply looking for more info on the country. From what I can find thgey are on the path to a socialist oriented economy, and in my opinion after the collapse of the socialist bloc they should have opened up their economy to capital like Cuba, Vietnam, China, and Laos have done. This would ensure that they at least would get some goods flowing in. Also, remember the US has a blockade on them. Much has been written about their money being spent on the military but eveyrone in the DPRK must serve time in the military from my understanding. This would seem to make their budget make more sense. I think this idea of Juche is unrealistic so i do not agree with them there. Also, I think they need to revitalize their government...every five years the Korean Workers Party recommits to making the country food self sufficent. This obviously is never going to happen, they don't have enough land to achieve this. This policy is driving the nation into the ground. They need to open the country up to foreign investment in tourism and heavy industry but keep a handle on capital in the way Cuba and Laos have. China took things too far and now there is an all out class war in the Chinese Communist Party. The whole great leader thing is really weird to me. I think it is stupid for someone like myself to assume things about their culture however, I don't have sufficent information to judge them. Perhaps this has something to do with their religious history in the country? Perhaps western propaganda is taking things out of context because their culture is different than ours? There is a lot of hero worship right here in America. When Reagan died the main stream media gushed over how he single handedly caused the collapse of the soviets, Bill Clinton supposedly single handedly created a booming economy in the 90's, We have presidents on our money, We have statues of them all over D.C., We have them carved into mount Rushmore....who is to say we don't do the same thing? I think socialism will develope very differently in each country...and right now I believe the DPRK can be considered socialist in the broad sense that it has a planned economy, the commanding heights of industry are in the hands of the state under control of a centralized government, they are anti-imperialist ect...now we can definately debate if the planned economy is a good or horrible plan, the state of democracy, ect.

[Deutsche Ideologie]

Originally posted by Diego [email protected] 16 2005, 08:48 PM
What the capitalist call "palaces" in Korea are in fact libaries for students to improve their education. All "palaces" are open to the public.

A kingdom would include a king, yet North Korea doesn't even have a president. So how can you call it a kingdom?

If 30% of the population died of starvation daily, wouldn't all of North Korea be dead in 4 days? No, the DPRK has food shortages because there is little farmland.
Starving is the word.. Not being starved to death and actually dying, very hungry people who live in shacks.

No, I'm sure there are libraries.. Government officials live great compared to most Koreans.

Korea has food shortages because they have their farmers growing opium when they should be growing crops to feed their 300,000 orphans.

[enigma2517]

Socialist Republic?

Hmm yes gives us a glimpse at what kind of commie you are.

Pathetic

[More Fire for the People]

I would rather be a real communist if that is what you consider "pathetic". I'm sorry if I'm not a follower of petty-bourgeois anarcho-reformists like you.

[Deutsche Ideologie]

Originally posted by Diego [email protected] 16 2005, 09:30 PM
I would rather be a real communist if that is what you consider "pathetic". I'm sorry if I'm not a follower of petty-bourgeois anarcho-reformists like you.
lol..

How old are you man? 15? 16? You've got alot to learn.

[JohnTheMarxist]

hm, well unlike most of the people here I have actually read socialist theory and am very active in politics, in communist movements, and activism. Most people here are nothing but social democrats who are still in highschool and dont actually do anything for change. They think they can just make nicey with the capitalists and have a worker paradise at the snap of a finger. I did not want this to be a flame thread, I simply want information on the country. As far as I can tell no country EVER has had a unblemished democratic history. Right here in America we live in a dictatorship of 2 parties countroled by the rich, we denied women and blacks the right to vote, helped nazis, held slaves, slaughtered native americans, let someone steal the last two presidnetial elections we slaughter our own people (hurrican katrina comes to mind)ect ect......So anyone from the US attacking the DPRK on governance is really just pathetic.

[Guest1]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2005, 07:47 PM
hm, well unlike most of the people here I have actually read socialist theory and am very active in politics, in communist movements, and activism. Most people here are nothing but social democrats who are still in highschool and dont actually do anything for change. They think they can just make nicey with the capitalists and have a worker paradise at the snap of a finger.
While I agree that the attacks on the DPRK here have been pretty pathetic and unbacked, this is not a fair analysis of revolutionary left's membership.

North Korea's problems lie in a lack of workers' control. The country's industries are run by the state, which can be a good thing, but there's alot of mismanagement and waste as a result of a bureaucratic caste that has taken control of the country. This is the problem with North Korea. In order to justify its own existance, this caste has relied on extreme nationalism and idealism. Hence, rather than the materialist philosophy of Marxism, they have Juche, where the state is a living organism, with the leader as its brain, and the party as the nervous system. Things like this don't help their situation at all. The nationalism has led to an isolationist attitude which prevents any foreign involvement, even if that would be aid from other socialist-oriented countries.

The only way forward for North Korea is a workers' revolution to install new, accountable leadership, and workers' control.

This is unlikely for now though, it's more likely that North Korea's party structure will implode, and leave the people in a worse position than they are in now.

It's a sad state of affairs.

[JohnTheMarxist]

I agree with a lot of what you have said...I do believe that the country is a socialist country but like the USSR has a bankrupt government that is not making the decisions that need to be made in order to keep the countyr going. They are anti-imperialist, anti-capitalist, centralized, hold the means of productions and have a planned economy....but the planning behind the economy is terrible! Until more countries move to socialism they need to open up more and diversify their economy.

[Hiero]

DRPK (or North Korea) is not socialist. If it is, the people would not starve.

In actual Fascist countries like Nazi Germany and Fascsit Italy, their people were well fed.

So people starving isn't a way to determine which country is Fascist, Socialist or Capitalist.

DPRK has never caused a famine. It is well known that in North Korea there is little arable land. It is also known that the DPRK is behind in technology. Whenever a flood or drought happens it badly hits the DPRK.

The DPRK did not have the success of the USSR and to a lesser extent China in projects like 5 year plans.



North Korea's problems lie in a lack of workers' control.

No, it's main problem is that it is undeveloped.


The only way forward for North Korea is a workers' revolution to install new, accountable leadership, and workers' control.

I disagree. It would still be left with the same problem. A undeveloped country in a hostile world, with a instable argiculture.

If they were to replace the current system which is bureaucratic i admit ( i don't know about the caste idea) it would still be left in the same situation. You can't just change governments in coup and then say "ok we need farms, lets build some farms". Though you admit this.

I think that DPRK is going to be in this hole for a long time. There are some scenerios that they could take.

1) The Juche path, self reliance and gain growth over a long period of time. They had a 6% growth last year. If a wealthy country is to turn socialist they can stay on this path and get friendly assitance. This keeps the revisionist and idealist ideas.

2) Take the Deng path and allow foreign capital to come in and work in a market system. They have taken up this path before, but it was alot more controled and are able to get imperialist to leave.

3) A Maoist path. Rid the Party and Government of all bureaucrats who are political professionalist, thoose who slow progression to keep their living standards. Though if the Cultural Revolution turned into a similiar Chinese Cultrual Revolution of the 60's with the red gaurd, it would leave the country in a worse position. The aim of the his path should be to remove bad party elements, not go on a witch hunt finding revisionist under ever roof. This may help with socialist planing and make things more fluid.

4) Reunification with South Korea. This will develop in a mixed economy, the main thing is that old argicultural patern will be reinstated, being able to help feed and build the North Korean area.

5) The coup to change party leadership. I say coup because a revolution implies that the economy will be in hands of another class. Though this may happen and they will restore capitalist system.

It is a complex sitaution and thoose who just say "its a fascist state and needs a workers revolution" are being naive. Changing government does not change ther material conditions that the DPRK are in.

I do agree that there is a personality cult, that the Juche ideology is a idealist and revisionist one and that there are bureaucrats in power who need to be removed by the people.

The DPRK is in a hostile world. Much like Cuba, though Cuba can support its argiculter better. Foreign investment would bring infrastructure, but like in China you will replace old class order.

I think either 3 or 4 may be the best way to go. This will be the quickest way to developing a socialist nation, or just nation that can grow and feed itself. Though with number 3, it may come down to it not being are problem of bureaucracy, and you still stuck in the same hole.

It's not a simple question and people are being imature and naive about it.

[JohnTheMarxist]

Also, I cannot confirm myself because I have never been there, but the DPRK does uphold the 10 point program of the communist manifesto. These are the ten primary points for the building of a socalist nation but by no means are they all the things that need to be done. This is what leads me to believe the DPRK is socialist oriented and begining a path to socialism.

1. Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes.

> Private business cannot own any land in the DPRK.

2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.

>The few businesses that are in the DPRK are progressively taxed. http://www1.korea-np.co.jp/pk/030th_issue/98021205.htm

>The DPRK was the first country to abolish taxes on workers.

3. Abolition of all rights of inheritance.

> There is no inheritance of private property in terms of businesses and extreme wealth.

4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.

>Done.

5. Centralisation of credit in the banks of the state, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly.

>DPRK banks are centralized

6. Centralisation of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the State.

>Done.

7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the State; the bringing into cultivation of waste-lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.

>I don't know if the soil has improved but there is definately not enough soil to feed the people.

8. Equal liability of all to work. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.

>Done. Actualy they spend too much time on self reliant agriculture..it is getting them nowhere.

9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of all the distinction between town and country by a more equable distribution of the populace over the country.

> Not sure on this one.

10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children’s factory labour in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production, &c, &c.
>Done.

DPRK constitution: http://www.novexcn.com/dprk_constitution_98.html

[The Feral Underclass]

Originally posted by Deutsche Ideologie+Oct 16 2005, 08:42 PM--> (Deutsche Ideologie @ Oct 16 2005, 08:42 PM)
Originally posted by viva le [email protected] 16 2005, 07:12 PM

Deutsche [email protected] 16 2005, 07:03 PM
In the way that there is no democracy, freedom of speech, internet access, etc

Stalinists make me laugh.
Oh so that is the basis for fascism. Here i thought it meant the the protection of capitalism by vigorous anti-left hysteria based entirely on nationalism and in some cases race hatred. But maybe the definitions are different in your book.Hold on... but you say on one part that it is fascist but on the other it is stalinist, or maybe you are referring to me. Anyways, hope to hear some good criticism based on reason and not catchy one-liners.
You can't even spell "viva la revolucion" without fucking it up, and you're gonna try and school me on what is fascism?

North Korea is a brutal and murderous kingdom, centered around the personality cults of the "great leaders" who live in palaces while 30% of their population is starving to death daily. You're a fucking tool.

http://www.nkhumanrights.or.kr/jabong/board/data/pds_photo/Chungjin_4.jpg
http://www.nkhumanrights.or.kr/jabong/board/data/pds_photo/Chungjin_3.jpg
http://www.nkhumanrights.or.kr/jabong/board/data/pds_photo/Chungjin_1.jpg
http://www.nkhumanrights.or.kr/jabong/board/data/pds_photo/Chungjin_5.jpg
http://www.nkhumanrights.or.kr/jabong/board/data/pds_photo/Chungjin_6.jpg
http://www.nkhumanrights.or.kr/jabong/board/data/pds_photo/Chungjin_7.jpg
http://www.nkhumanrights.or.kr/jabong/board/data/pds_photo/Chungjin_8.jpg
http://www.nkhumanrights.or.kr/jabong/board/data/pds_photo/Chungjin_9.jpg [/b]
Wait a minute...

I'm no supporter of the DPRK, but those pictures you psoted could have been from []banywhere[/b] including wester countries which have all the things you listed.

Secondly, your defintion of fascism is not a basis of fascism as Viva quite correctly pointed out.

[Deutsche Ideologie]

Originally posted by The Anarchist [email protected] 17 2005, 02:37 AM


I'm no supporter of the DPRK, but those pictures you psoted could have been from []banywhere including wester countries which have all the things you listed.
[/b]
They were taken in North Korea and broadcast on Japanese television dude.. They're from North Korea, look at their faces dude, Koreans have distinct, round faces.

[viva le revolution]

Originally posted by Deutsche [email protected] 17 2005, 03:17 AM

They were taken in North Korea and broadcast on Japanese television dude.. They're from North Korea, look at their faces dude, Koreans have distinct, round faces.
Broadcast on Japanese television? pardon me but aren't they an enemy state of north korea, not really the best place to get unbiased information on narth korea. Like depending on U.S televsion to get an accurate picture on Iran.
They have distict ROUND FACES? That's all you base this on ?
As for my spelling, us Pakistani's have round fingers and are prone to fuck up while typing. I'm sure you of all people could forgive that.
Please give solid arguements and not infantile statements.

[viva le revolution]

How could a guy who is starving still have round face? Something to think about eh?

[Deutsche Ideologie]

Hey, buddy.. Yeah

You see that sign in the last picture on the left?

That's written in a language called "Korean". Here's some more of it..

문화주택
조선말
라지오

Having a round face has nothing to do with starving, it's called bone structure.

oh any also, see the soldier in the last picture? he's a north korean soldier, wearing the official north korean uniform..
http://misheli.image.pbase.com/u46/jkamphof/upload/29771483.image0002.jpg
Fucking dumbshits, are you 12?

[Wanted Man]

Originally posted by Deutsche Ideologie+Oct 17 2005, 03:17 AM--> (Deutsche Ideologie @ Oct 17 2005, 03:17 AM)
The Anarchist [email protected] 17 2005, 02:37 AM


I'm no supporter of the DPRK, but those pictures you psoted could have been from []banywhere including wester countries which have all the things you listed.
[/b]
They were taken in North Korea and broadcast on Japanese television dude.. They're from North Korea, look at their faces dude, Koreans have distinct, round faces. [/b]
I don't see much wrong with those pictures, they don't look extremely rich, but they don't look starved either. I've honestly seen worse from the 3rd world countries, including socialist ones. Look at some pictures from Vietnam:

http://img92.exs.cx/img92/4372/dscn06211hs.jpg
http://img92.exs.cx/img92/9928/dscn06582cq.jpg
http://img92.exs.cx/img92/5646/dscn06617kq.jpg

OGM VIETNAM IS TEH EVIL STARVED HERMIT KINGDOM!1!1!11

Say, "Deutsche Ideologie", would you happen to be the same person as Freiheits Kämpfer from Soviet-Empire, who was banned there for Nazism and Holocaust denial? Just wondering, because you're the most annoying person I've seen on a leftist forum since FK. Your little rants against people aged 12-17, your personal attacks and your accusations of them not knowing anything about fascism(not to mention your constant insistence to label the DPRK a "kingdom") does not hide the fact that it is actually you who looks like an infantile idiot who has never done anything at all to study the marxist definition of "fascism"(a state that takes away freedom of speech is not fascist), and it also leaves me wondering about any other studies you've ever done of marxism.

So until you've learned even the most basic theories of marxism, you can just fuck off with the insults and any other accusations against people who know a lot more about the topic than you do.

[bolshevik butcher]

John what about the right to inherit the throne? THe kims seem to be building a dynasty there.

Also consider that those points were made voer 150yrs and bits of them are out of date, and parts need ot be updated.

[viva le revolution]

Originally posted by Deutsche [email protected] 17 2005, 06:27 AM
Hey, buddy.. Yeah

You see that sign in the last picture on the left?

That's written in a language called "Korean". Here's some more of it..

문화주택
조선말
라지오

Having a round face has nothing to do with starving, it's called bone structure.

oh any also, see the soldier in the last picture? he's a north korean soldier, wearing the official north korean uniform..
http://misheli.image.pbase.com/u46/jkamphof/upload/29771483.image0002.jpg
Fucking dumbshits, are you 12?
Again you are avoiding answering my question, how is north korea fascist? A simple question.
Obviously you made the statement based on some evidence or some reason, please enlighten us dumbshits.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Come on, I'm no fan of 'the great leader,' but a sign in Korean and a military uniform can be easily secured by a country wishing to do some anti-DPRK propaganda.

[Wanted Man]

Originally posted by Clenched [email protected] 17 2005, 10:54 AM
John what about the right to inherit the throne? THe kims seem to be building a dynasty there.
That's just plainly not true. Anyone who has done even the least bit of research would realise that Kim Jong-il was neither groomed nor designated by his father to succeed him, his gaining power was solely due to an internal party struggle which he won.

[Deutsche Ideologie]

Hey kid, I don't give a fuck about Marxism, I just care about the people and the workers.

[Hiero]

honestly seen worse from the 3rd world countries, including socialist ones. Look at some pictures from Vietnam:

http://img92.exs.cx/img92/4372/dscn06211hs.jpg
http://img92.exs.cx/img92/9928/dscn06582cq.jpg
http://img92.exs.cx/img92/5646/dscn06617kq.jpg

Umm, they are not worse then the original. Thoose pictures show healthy people, building, farming and shoping.

[Guest1]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2005, 09:46 PM
No, it's main problem is that it is undeveloped.
I was only pointing out that I believe it the bureaucrats are to blame for the inability to develop the means of production and the level of technique in the country after this many years, though they have had a planned economy and all the ability to influence development that that entails. They have been there so long that their failures have become compound, with what little industry and technology exists falling into disrepair and disuse. Greater workers' control means progressive, diverse, planning, rather than the stagnation of a caste that has guarenteed its position and congealed in place.

That is why I make the suggestion. Though I don't think it's likely, given that freedom cannot be eaten, and so it is not going to be the main concern of the workers and peasants of North Korea at the moment, who are unlikely to be reading much about Marx or organizing unions.


I disagree. It would still be left with the same problem. A undeveloped country in a hostile world, with a instable argiculture.

If they were to replace the current system which is bureaucratic i admit ( i don't know about the caste idea) it would still be left in the same situation. You can't just change governments in coup and then say "ok we need farms, lets build some farms". Though you admit this.
For sure, but at the very least it would be in a position where responsible leadership can actually take measures to deal with it, whereas I don't think the current leadership is at all capable of doing anything at all, because of its own fear of upsetting the situation.


I think that DPRK is going to be in this hole for a long time. There are some scenerios that they could take.

1) The Juche path, self reliance and gain growth over a long period of time. They had a 6% growth last year. If a wealthy country is to turn socialist they can stay on this path and get friendly assitance. This keeps the revisionist and idealist ideas.
I think this is unlikely to actually amount to any real change, and I'm still not sure the bureaucrats would be open to any aid considering the shitty experience with China and the USSR's "aid".


2) Take the Deng path and allow foreign capital to come in and work in a market system. They have taken up this path before, but it was alot more controled and are able to get imperialist to leave.
North Korea could gain from this if there's no other way to get some actual things happening there, as much as I hate to say it. Hopefully there are other options.


3) A Maoist path. Rid the Party and Government of all bureaucrats who are political professionalist, thoose who slow progression to keep their living standards. Though if the Cultural Revolution turned into a similiar Chinese Cultrual Revolution of the 60's with the red gaurd, it would leave the country in a worse position. The aim of the his path should be to remove bad party elements, not go on a witch hunt finding revisionist under ever roof. This may help with socialist planing and make things more fluid.
This could work, but it's unlikely that anyone in the party remains who would push for something like this, let alone someone in a position of enough power and support to launch a coup against the other elements, which is basically what it would entail.


4) Reunification with South Korea. This will develop in a mixed economy, the main thing is that old argicultural patern will be reinstated, being able to help feed and build the North Korean area.
I think this has been their attempted path to a certain extent, but they won't get it on their terms, and the South won't want to absorb such an impoverished population right away without major concessions.


5)The coup to change party leadership. I say coup because a revolution implies that the economy will be in hands of another class. Though this may happen and they will restore capitalist system.
Sorry, I should have made it clear I meant a political, not a social revolution. In otherwords, one which changes the political structure, not the economic basis of the country.

That being said, in my opinion this option and option number 3 are the same. Those two options, as one, are my preferred solution, but I don't think it's likely because elements within the party who would push this are probably isolated and would have to rely on organizing workers or peasants as their base of support. This, as I have said, is also unlikely because of the extreme impoverishment, particularly outside the capital.


It is a complex sitaution and thoose who just say "its a fascist state and needs a workers revolution" are being naive. Changing government does not change ther material conditions that the DPRK are in.
Absolutely, and I agree that many people are very naive about the DPRK and even downright reactionary. However, I only advocate a change in government because I believe this one is generally incapable of change anymore. It has settled, and may need some stirring up before anything can be addressed by it.


I do agree that there is a personality cult, that the Juche ideology is a idealist and revisionist one and that there are bureaucrats in power who need to be removed by the people.

The DPRK is in a hostile world. Much like Cuba, though Cuba can support its argiculter better. Foreign investment would bring infrastructure, but like in China you will replace old class order.

I think either 3 or 4 may be the best way to go. This will be the quickest way to developing a socialist nation, or just nation that can grow and feed itself. Though with number 3, it may come down to it not being are problem of bureaucracy, and you still stuck in the same hole.

It's not a simple question and people are being imature and naive about it.
This is definitely a comlicated issue, and it's unfortunate that many are treating it with such contempt. North Korea's story is a sad one, and will be for a long while. Let's just hope things will one day change for the people of Korea.

[Wanted Man]

Originally posted by Deutsche [email protected] 17 2005, 01:40 PM
Hey kid, I don't give a fuck about Marxism, I just care about the people and the workers.
Great response, you fucking troll.

[Guest1]

As for the pictures, I don't think anyone denies there's starvation in North Korea, though it is true Japanese media is a bad source.

I don't think it was deliberately planned by the bureaucrats, or is on its own a sign of non-socialist orientation. That's just a simplified analysis.

And referring to it as Fascist is simply baseless and meaningless.

[Wanted Man]

Originally posted by Che y [email protected] 17 2005, 01:53 PM
As for the pictures, I don't think anyone denies there's starvation in North Korea, though it is true Japanese media is a bad source.

I don't think it was deliberately planned by the bureaucrats, or is on its own a sign of non-socialist orientation. That's just a simplified analysis.
Indeed. The whole "government-sponsored famine" is just plain nonsense. It has constantly been established that the famine throughout the 90s can be blamed on lack of arable land, natural disasters, disappearance of socialist market relations etc. etc. The situation in the DPRK is still very insecure, but the starvation in the mid-90s that killed about 2 million is thankfully over.

[Hiero]

but the starvation in the mid-90s that killed about 2 million is thankfully over.

It has been estimated between 600 000 and 3.5 million.

But that is alo. That would be over 10% of the population, so im not sure.

[Wanted Man]

Hmm, it could be possible, but it is quite a lot, I just took the accepted amount, but of course it could be more or less, the secrecy of the government doesn't really help. Anyway, I pretty much agree with Che y Marijuana, although I don't think that a revolution that truly puts the workers into control is possible at the moment, or at least not without the imperialist countries of the world hijacking it.

Eventually, my support goes to the workers of the DPRK, who have been very dedicated to establishing socialism, the measures taken by the government are far from agreeable at times, but given the pressure, that might even be more extreme than that on Cuba, such things are sadly not always by choice.

[Luís Henrique]

Originally posted by Che y [email protected] 17 2005, 12:02 AM
rather than the materialist philosophy of Marxism, they have Juche, where the state is a living organism, with the leader as its brain, and the party as the nervous system.
This sounds very much as bourgeois Fidhtean proto-fascist ideology: society as an organism, with no internal contradictions, extreme statolatry reminding of Mussolini (nothing human out from the State), naturalisation of social hierarchies (the leader is the brain... I suppose garbage collectors are the asshole?). It sounds nothing leftist, but a whole lot right-wing. In any way, socialist ideology this is not.

Luís Henrique

[viva le revolution]

Originally posted by Deutsche [email protected] 17 2005, 01:40 PM
Hey kid, I don't give a fuck about Marxism, I just care about the people and the workers.
How surprising, still no response of how he finds the DPRK fascist. Of course my expectation of a reasonable arguement from him is beginning to wear thin at this point.

[More Fire for the People]

To whoever stated that North Korea needs a cultural revolution, I entirely agree!
The revisionist should be forced to step down from their positions in the Party and all leaders should be questioned and perahps recalled. Even the General Secretary if neccessary.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

How any self-professed leftist can admit to supporting a nation whose people starve while their leaders wax fat off ill-gotten gains is beyond me.

[Hiero]

Originally posted by [email protected] 18 2005, 08:15 AM
How any self-professed leftist can admit to supporting a nation whose people starve while their leaders wax fat off ill-gotten gains is beyond me.
No one has shown any complete support dor DPRK, we are jsut being realistic about.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Shouldn't we be discouraging such disgusting behaviour? It's simply not enough to simply "Not wholly support" the DPRK, we must divorce ourselves completely from such absurdities.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

So the working class hasn't made any gains in the DPRK? What about the world anti-imperialist (and thus pro-liberation) camp?

Should we defend DPRK against imperialism Noxion?

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

So the working class hasn't made any gains in the DPRK?

Nope. The working class has nothing to gain from dictatorship. Hopefully, the regime in North Korea will soften enough to allow them to do some much needed investments. Then North Korea will have it's own home-grown, robust capitalist class, and then they can start down the road to communism.


What about the world anti-imperialist (and thus pro-liberation) camp?

Should we defend DPRK against imperialism Noxion?

In the event of imperialist action, the default position of communists is that the imperialists should lose, and I make no exceptions in this regard.

This does not, however, render the DPRK regime immune to criticism, which it richly deserves.

[Hiero]

In the event of imperialist action, the default position of communists is that the imperialists should lose, and I make no exceptions in this regard.

Really?


Hopefully, the regime in North Korea will soften..... Then North Korea will have it's own home-grown, robust capitalist class

This is a invitation for the imperialist. The Chinese revisionist allowed a Chinese capitalist class to grow in China. All they did was become comprador class for US imperialists in China. There has been little gains to the majority of people.

And you propose such a system?


This does not, however, render the DPRK regime immune to criticism, which it richly deserves.

Excactly what we have done in this thread. Though we have done it from a socialist position.

[Enragé]

DPRK is not socialist because:

-no people's democracy
-militaristic ("military first")
-no freedom whatsoever (freedom of press, freedom of speech etc etc, all do not exist)
-no economic equality (the leaders grow fat while the people die of starvation)

thats what i can think of in like 3 secs.

[bolshevik butcher]

Originally posted by Matthijs+Oct 17 2005, 01:22 PM--> (Matthijs @ Oct 17 2005, 01:22 PM)
Clenched [email protected] 17 2005, 10:54 AM
John what about the right to inherit the throne? THe kims seem to be building a dynasty there.
That's just plainly not true. Anyone who has done even the least bit of research would realise that Kim Jong-il was neither groomed nor designated by his father to succeed him, his gaining power was solely due to an internal party struggle which he won. [/b]
What about all the shrines deciated to them? You know in Peingyang at night, there is often power cuts yet the shrines to the kims are left on?

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Originally posted by [email protected] 18 2005, 02:27 PM

Hopefully, the regime in North Korea will soften..... Then North Korea will have it's own home-grown, robust capitalist class

This is a invitation for the imperialist. The Chinese revisionist allowed a Chinese capitalist class to grow in China. All they did was become comprador class for US imperialists in China. There has been little gains to the majority of people.

And you propose such a system?
Yes. It's better to have NK develop it's own capitalist elite rather than have one forced upon them. What China needs to do is to stop the preventing of a middle class forming, it's hurting their development as a nascent capitalist power.

You do realise that countries have to become capitalist before becoming communist right?

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

You do realize that your Menshevik outlook isn't supported by alot of communists right?

[JohnTheMarxist]

I keep hearing "the leaders are fat while the people starve". The economy has grown for the last 7 yrs straight now. There was not starvation in N Korea until 95-98 and that was due to natural disasters, the economic collapse and the fact that the US blocked almost all food aid to the country. Before that period the UN admonished the many gains of the North and they grew and a faster rate than the South. The US has also blocked the countries attempt to create other energy sources such as light nuclear reactors. First of all it is very possible that the bueracracy gives itself hand outs...what government doesn't? Much like the USSR the government officials may be corrupted but they do not own the land or means of productions in a capitalist way. Also, of couse the army and the leaders of the country will remain fed. How could the country pull itself out of crisis if its leaders were starving to death and couldnt make rational decisions...this is just stupid. There has to be some form of order. Also, the army had to remain fed because 1.) if the Army collapsed the south surely would have invaded and killed even more people and 2.) a starving army would have resulted in total anarchy within the country and definately would have been met with foreign intervention. the number of people who died of famine was around 250,000. Some aid workers are now being turned away because the country is not suffering famine any longer.

[Enragé]

there is a difference between quantitative starvation (where you die of hunger within weeks) which happened between 95-98 and qualitative starvation (where you wither away slowly, but surely, because of a lack of vitamins etc) which is still happening.

Also, its a figure of speach. they starve and they grow fat=they are poor while they are rich.

Also, if anarchy would have come to be if the army collapsed...well that just shows the only reason the government is still in place is because of the army and such.

[Enragé]

and how without leaders?

WELL SIMPLE: WITH PEOPLE"S DEMOCRACY

thats fucking marxism.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Originally posted by [email protected] 18 2005, 07:51 PM
You do realize that your Menshevik outlook isn't supported by alot of communists right?
Well, I prefer realism to popularity. And the fact of the matter is that for both China and North Korea the way forward is capitalism of the home-grown variety. Once they have that, and the capitalist consciousness that comes with it, then the proles can start on the road to communism. China, Russia et al have all shown us what happens when you try to go to communism without going through capitalism first.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Right because the advanced capitalists countries have all moved on to communism now. Oh wait no they haven't.

Communists fight for the immediate aims of the proleteriat and other oppressed people as a part of the overall struggle for communism; and, as has been proven in Cuba, people in underdeveloped countries are better off under socialism than capitalism.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Right because the advanced capitalists countries have all moved on to communism now. Oh wait no they haven't.

True, consciousness isn't there, but the infrastructure is.


Communists fight for the immediate aims of the proleteriat and other oppressed people as a part of the overall struggle for communism; and, as has been proven in Cuba, people in underdeveloped countries are better off under socialism than capitalism.

A complete and utter red herring. I never mentioned anything about socialism, I'm talking about communism.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

A red herring?

You specifically said the people of China and North Korea needed capitalism first, before they could advance to communism. That implies a country should not advance to socialism before acheiving fully developed capitalism, does it not?

[JC1]

Capitalism cant develop in so called "third" world country's.

Look at the old socialist country's. When they came out of Socialism, they were as semi-colonial as before socialism(Even though the material asis for capitalism was there). Socialism can be restored to capitalism, for it is not a transitory too capitalism.

[Enragé]

we dont need capitalism for communism

THERE!
hah i said it.

[Enragé]

why?

cuz why would we bloody need it?

sure it will be primitivist at first, but who cares? it can progress.
look at the zapatistas, they are doing great shit in a non industrialized region

[Hiero]

What China needs to do is to stop the preventing of a middle class forming

Its middle class is growing.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Originally posted by [email protected] 18 2005, 11:38 PM
A red herring?

You specifically said the people of China and North Korea needed capitalism first, before they could advance to communism. That implies a country should not advance to socialism before acheiving fully developed capitalism, does it not?
I don't accept the conceited fairytale that a socialist hyperstate is a step on the road to classless, stateless communism, so your talk of socialism is misleading.

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

Is the DPRK socialist? Not meaningfully, no - the bureacratic class controls the means of production, and are antagonist to the broad masses of Korean people. In a sense, they are akin to the capitalist class of any third-world country. Certainly, we must support them against subjegation by imperialism, but uphold them as socialist? Ha!

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Originally posted by NoXion+Oct 19 2005, 04:29 AM--> (NoXion @ Oct 19 2005, 04:29 AM)
[email protected] 18 2005, 11:38 PM
A red herring?

You specifically said the people of China and North Korea needed capitalism first, before they could advance to communism. That implies a country should not advance to socialism before acheiving fully developed capitalism, does it not?
I don't accept the conceited fairytale that a socialist hyperstate is a step on the road to classless, stateless communism, so your talk of socialism is misleading. [/b]
Well then, understand socialism to mean "transition to communism" and answer the question.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

As a transition to communism? no. However, it would not be remiss of them to adopt institutions such as socialised medicine and a welfare state rather than going for full-blown laissez-faire capitalism.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

So your a social democrat then?

PS. Laissez faire capitalism doesn't exist anywhere.

[Luís Henrique]

Originally posted by [email protected] 18 2005, 11:48 PM
Capitalism cant develop in so called "third" world country's.
Then tell me, please what this third world country I'm writing from is, if not capitalist? :blink:

Luís Henrique

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

So your a social democrat then?

Assumptions, assumptions. In the first world I fully support a revolutionary (NOT socialist) transition to classless, stateless communism as the material infrastructure is already in place. Not so in the third world, which needs it's own native capitalist class to develop such infrastructure. (The presence of a foreign capitalist class is inadequate to say the least, as it serves only to hyperdevelop a specific portion of the economy, IE cash crops, while leaving the rest of the country stagnant)

Sometimes socialism in third world nations "works" to the degree that living standards are better than similar nations (Compare Cuba and Haiti) But it seems that Cuba is "stuck in a loop"

Other times, like in China and the DPRK, it's a total failure and results in a disgusting oligarchy.

[rioters bloc]

Originally posted by Matthijs+Oct 17 2005, 08:48 PM--> (Matthijs @ Oct 17 2005, 08:48 PM)
Originally posted by Deutsche [email protected] 17 2005, 03:17 AM

The Anarchist [email protected] 17 2005, 02:37 AM


I'm no supporter of the DPRK, but those pictures you psoted could have been from []banywhere including wester countries which have all the things you listed.

They were taken in North Korea and broadcast on Japanese television dude.. They're from North Korea, look at their faces dude, Koreans have distinct, round faces. [/b]
I don't see much wrong with those pictures, they don't look extremely rich, but they don't look starved either. I've honestly seen worse from the 3rd world countries, including socialist ones. Look at some pictures from Vietnam:

http://img92.exs.cx/img92/4372/dscn06211hs.jpg
http://img92.exs.cx/img92/9928/dscn06582cq.jpg
http://img92.exs.cx/img92/5646/dscn06617kq.jpg

OGM VIETNAM IS TEH EVIL STARVED HERMIT KINGDOM!1!1!11 [/b]
going on the basis that those photos from dprk are real, how are the photos from vietnam any worse? at all?

people lying on train tracks/in the middle of the street vs people harvesting food and cooking... hmmm..

[violencia.Proletariat]

Originally posted by [email protected] 18 2005, 08:02 PM
why?

cuz why would we bloody need it?

sure it will be primitivist at first, but who cares? it can progress.
look at the zapatistas, they are doing great shit in a non industrialized region
no they arent, they are still poor as shit. no one wants to live in an agrarian society anymore. people want "the stuff"

[Hiero]

In the first world I fully support a revolutionary (NOT socialist) transition to classless, stateless communism as the material infrastructure is already in place

The one place there never has been a revolution in recent times. There is little class conscious in the first world. Contrast this with the 3rd world in the last 100 years.


Not so in the third world, which needs it's own native capitalist class to develop such infrastructure. (The presence of a foreign capitalist class is inadequate to say the least, as it serves only to hyperdevelop a specific portion of the economy, IE cash crops, while leaving the rest of the country stagnant)


This can not happen. Your idea of introducing capitalism is based on building infastructure. The only people Capitalist class that can do that is the Imperialist West. Though they are restricted and build economies on market needs not people needs.

A home grown capitalist class will just not grow, it will be a comprador capitalist class.

[bolshevik butcher]

The one place there never has been a revolution in recent times. There is little class conscious in the first world. Contrast this with the 3rd world in the last 100 years.

Paris 1968?
Germany 1918?
Ireland 1916?

[Enragé]

Originally posted by nate+Oct 20 2005, 01:46 AM--> (nate @ Oct 20 2005, 01:46 AM)
[email protected] 18 2005, 08:02 PM
why?

cuz why would we bloody need it?

sure it will be primitivist at first, but who cares? it can progress.
look at the zapatistas, they are doing great shit in a non industrialized region
no they arent, they are still poor as shit. no one wants to live in an agrarian society anymore. people want "the stuff" [/b]
yes, and they will progress

the point is, its working. People are equal, people rule themselves, people's democracy.

[Guest1]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2005, 09:13 PM
Assumptions, assumptions. In the first world I fully support a revolutionary (NOT socialist) transition to classless, stateless communism as the material infrastructure is already in place. Not so in the third world, which needs it's own native capitalist class to develop such infrastructure. (The presence of a foreign capitalist class is inadequate to say the least, as it serves only to hyperdevelop a specific portion of the economy, IE cash crops, while leaving the rest of the country stagnant)
Bingo.

Foreign Capitalist classes do not progress the country's means of production, or its economic development.

And yet, Capitalism is a global system. A "national bourgeoisie" cannot bring itself to take on the tasks necessary, it has no progressive role to play anymore, because it simply can't challenge the better financed imperialist economic powers.

The only nations which have been able to cultivate industry in opposition to the imperialist bourgeoisies have done it exactly so, in opposition to the imperialist bourgeoisies. In otherwords, it has been the working class taking up the tasks of the bourgeois revolution as well as the socialist one which has yielded the only reliable results. All evidence points to the bourgeoisie having reached a stagnant role today, despite all reactionary Menshevik delusions otherwise.

[Hiero]

Originally posted by Clenched [email protected] 20 2005, 10:19 PM
The one place there never has been a revolution in recent times. There is little class conscious in the first world. Contrast this with the 3rd world in the last 100 years.

Paris 1968?
Germany 1918?
Ireland 1916?
1918 and 1916 isn't recent. It was around the time Imperialism was just growing.

1968 riots were just that, riots.

[enigma2517]

Psh forget all that.

How about...Spanish Civil War?

1936-1939...that was a hell of a time.