From Wounded Knee to Iraq

[Comrade Hector]

From Wounded Knee to Iraq
by Zoltan Grossman

SOUTH DAKOTA 1890 (-?) Troops 300 Lakota Indians massacred at Wounded Knee.
ARGENTINA 1890 Troops Buenos Aires interests protected.
CHILE 1891 Troops Marines clash with nationalist rebels.
HAITI 1891 Troops Black revolt on Navassa defeated.
IDAHO 1892 Troops Army suppresses silver miners' strike.
HAWAII 1893 (-?) Naval, troops Independent kingdom overthrown, annexed.
CHICAGO 1894 Troops Breaking of rail strike, 34 killed.
NICARAGUA 1894 Troops Month-long occupation of Bluefields.
CHINA 1894-95 Naval, troops Marines land in Sino-Japanese War
KOREA 1894-96 Troops Marines kept in Seoul during war.
PANAMA 1895 Troops, naval Marines land in Colombian province.
NICARAGUA 1896 Troops Marines land in port of Corinto.
CHINA 1898-1900 Troops Boxer Rebellion fought by foreign armies.
PHILIPPINES 1898-1910 (-?) Naval, troops Seized from Spain, killed 600,000 Filipinos
CUBA 1898-1902 (-?) Naval, troops Seized from Spain, still hold Navy base.
PUERTO RICO 1898 (-?) Naval, troops Seized from Spain, occupation continues.
GUAM 1898 (-?) Naval, troops Seized from Spain, still use as base.
MINNESOTA 1898 (-?) Troops Army battles Chippewa at Leech Lake.
NICARAGUA 1898 Troops Marines land at port of San Juan del Sur.
SAMOA 1899 (-?) Troops Battle over succession to throne.
NICARAGUA 1899 Troops Marines land at port of Bluefields.
IDAHO 1899-1901 Troops Army occupies Coeur d'Alene mining region.
OKLAHOMA 1901 Troops Army battles Creek Indian revolt.
PANAMA 1901-14 Naval, troops Broke off from Colombia 1903, annexed Canal Zone 1914.
HONDURAS 1903 Troops Marines intervene in revolution.
DOMINICAN REPUBLIC 1903-04 Troops U.S. interests protected in Revolution.
KOREA 1904-05 Troops Marines land in Russo-Japanese War.
CUBA 1906-09 Troops Marines land in democratic election.
NICARAGUA 1907 Troops "Dollar Diplomacy" protectorate set up.
HONDURAS 1907 Troops Marines land during war with Nicaragua
PANAMA 1908 Troops Marines intervene in election contest.
NICARAGUA 1910 Troops Marines land in Bluefields and Corinto.
HONDURAS 1911 Troops U.S. interests protected in civil war.
CHINA 1911-41 Naval, troops Continuous occupation with flare-ups.
CUBA 1912 Troops U.S. interests protected in civil war.
PANAMA 1912 Troops Marines land during heated election.
HONDURAS 1912 Troops Marines protect U.S. economic interests.
NICARAGUA 1912-33 Troops, bombing 10-year occupation, fought guerillas
MEXICO 1913 Naval Americans evacuated during revolution.
DOMINICAN REPUBLIC 1914 Naval Fight with rebels over Santo Domingo.
COLORADO 1914 Troops Breaking of miners' strike by Army.
MEXICO 1914-18 Naval, troops Series of interventions against nationalists.
HAITI 1914-34 Troops, bombing 19-year occupation after revolts.
DOMINICAN REPUBLIC 1916-24 Troops 8-year Marine occupation.
CUBA 1917-33 Troops Military occupation, economic protectorate.
WORLD WAR I 1917-18 naval, troops Ships sunk, fought Germany for 1 1/2 years.
RUSSIA 1918-22 Naval, troops Five landings to fight Bolsheviks
PANAMA 1918-20 Troops "Police duty" during unrest after elections.
HONDURAS 1919 Troops Marines land during election campaign.
YUGOSLAVIA 1919 Troops/Marines intervene for Italy against Serbs in Dalmatia.
GUATEMALA 1920 Troops 2-week intervention against unionists.
WEST VIRGINIA 1920-21 Troops, bombing Army intervenes against mineworkers.
TURKEY 1922 Troops Fought nationalists in Smyrna.
CHINA 1922-27 Naval, troops Deployment during nationalist revolt.
HONDURAS 1924-25 Troops Landed twice during election strife.
PANAMA 1925 Troops Marines suppress general strike.
CHINA 1927-34 Troops Marines stationed throughout the country.
EL SALVADOR 1932 Naval Warships send during Marti revolt.
WASHINGTON DC 1932 Troops Army stops WWI vet bonus protest.
WORLD WAR II 1941-45 Naval, troops, bombing, nuclear Hawaii bombed, fought Japan, Italy and Germay for 3 years; first nuclear war.
DETROIT 1943 Troops Army put down Black rebellion.
IRAN 1946 Nuclear threat Soviet troops told to leave north.
YUGOSLAVIA 1946 Nuclear threat, naval Response to shoot-down of US plane.
URUGUAY 1947 Nuclear threat Bombers deployed as show of strength.
GREECE 1947-49 Command operation U.S. directs extreme-right in civil war.
GERMANY 1948 Nuclear Threat Atomic-capable bombers guard Berlin Airlift.
CHINA 1948-49 Troops/Marines evacuate Americans before Communist victory.
PHILIPPINES 1948-54 Command operation CIA directs war against Huk Rebellion.
PUERTO RICO 1950 Command operation Independence rebellion crushed in Ponce.
KOREA 1951-53 (-?) Troops, naval, bombing , nuclear threats U.S./So. Korea fights China/No. Korea to stalemate; A-bomb threat in 1950, and against China in 1953. Still have bases.
IRAN 1953 Command Operation CIA overthrows democracy, installs Shah.
VIETNAM 1954 Nuclear threat French offered bombs to use against seige.
GUATEMALA 1954 Command operation, bombing, nuclear threat CIA directs exile invasion after new gov't nationalized U.S. company lands; bombers based in Nicaragua.
EGYPT 1956 Nuclear threat, troops Soviets told to keep out of Suez crisis; Marines evacuate foreigners.
LEBANON l958 Troops, naval Marine occupation against rebels.
IRAQ 1958 Nuclear threat Iraq warned against invading Kuwait.
CHINA l958 Nuclear threat China told not to move on Taiwan isles.
PANAMA 1958 Troops Flag protests erupt into confrontation.
VIETNAM l960-75 Troops, naval, bombing, nuclear threats Fought South Vietnam revolt & North Vietnam; one million killed in longest U.S. war; atomic bomb threats in l968 and l969.
LAOS 1962 Command operation Military buildup during guerrilla war.
CUBA l961 Command operation CIA-directed exile invasion fails.
GERMANY l961 Nuclear threat Alert during Berlin Wall crisis.
CUBA l962 Nuclear threat, naval Blockade during missile crisis; near-war with Soviet Union.
PANAMA l964 Troops Panamanians shot for urging canal's return.
INDONESIA l965 Command operation Million killed in CIA-assisted army coup.
DOMINICAN REPUBLIC 1965-66 Troops, bombing Marines land during election campaign.
GUATEMALA l966-67 Command operation Green Berets intervene against rebels.
DETROIT l967 Troops Army battles Blacks, 43 killed.
UNITED STATES l968 Troops After King is shot; over 21,000 soldiers in cities.
CAMBODIA l969-75 Bombing, troops, naval Up to 2 million killed in decade of bombing, starvation, and political chaos.
OMAN l970 Command operation U.S. directs Iranian marine invasion.
LAOS l971-73 Command operation, bombing U.S. directs South Vietnamese invasion; "carpet-bombs" countryside.
SOUTH DAKOTA l973 Command operation Army directs Wounded Knee siege of Lakotas.
MIDEAST 1973 Nuclear threat World-wide alert during Mideast War.
CHILE 1973 Command operation CIA-backed coup ousts elected marxist president.
CAMBODIA l975 Troops, bombing Gas captured ship, 28 die in copter crash.
ANGOLA l976-92 Command operation CIA assists South African-backed rebels.
IRAN l980 Troops, nuclear threat, aborted bombing Raid to rescue Embassy hostages; 8 troops die in copter-plane crash. Soviets warned not to get involved in revolution.
LIBYA l981 Naval jets Two Libyan jets shot down in maneuvers.
EL SALVADOR l981-92 Command operation, troops Advisors, overflights aid anti-rebel war, soldiers briefly involved in hostage clash.
NICARAGUA l981-90 Command operation, naval CIA directs exile (Contra) invasions, plants harbor mines against revolution.
LEBANON l982-84 Naval, bombing, troops Marines expel PLO and back Phalangists, Navy bombs and shells Muslim positions.
GRENADA l983-84 Troops, bombing Invasion four years after revolution.
HONDURAS l983-89 Troops Maneuvers help build bases near borders.
IRAN l984 Jets Two Iranian jets shot down over Persian Gulf.
LIBYA l986 Bombing, naval Air strikes to topple nationalist gov't.

BOLIVIA 1986 Troops Army assists raids on cocaine region.
IRAN l987-88 Naval, bombing US intervenes on side of Iraq in war.
LIBYA 1989 Naval jets Two Libyan jets shot down.
VIRGIN ISLANDS 1989 Troops St. Croix Black unrest after storm.
PHILIPPINES 1989 Jets Air cover provided for government against coup.
PANAMA 1989 (-?) Troops, bombing Nationalist government ousted by 27,000 soldiers, leaders arrested, 2000+ killed.
LIBERIA 1990 Troops Foreigners evacuated during civil war.
SAUDI ARABIA 1990-91 Troops, jets Iraq countered after invading Kuwait. 540,000 troops also stationed in Oman, Qatar, Bahrain, UAE, Israel.
IRAQ 1990-? Bombing, troops, naval Blockade of Iraqi and Jordanian ports, air strikes; 200,000+ killed in invasion of Iraq and Kuwait; no-fly zone over Kurdish north, Shiite south, large-scale destruction of Iraqi military.
KUWAIT 1991 Naval, bombing, troops Kuwait royal family returned to throne.
LOS ANGELES 1992 Troops Army, Marines deployed against anti-police uprising.
SOMALIA 1992-94 Troops, naval, bombing U.S.-led United Nations occupation during civil war; raids against one Mogadishu faction.
YUGOSLAVIA 1992-94 Naval NATO blockade of Serbia and Montenegro.
BOSNIA 1993-? Jets, bombing No-fly zone patrolled in civil war; downed jets, bombed Serbs.
CROATIA 1995 Jets, bombing U.S.-led NATO jets bomb Serbian radar and anti-aircraft sites for Ustasha attack; Croatian army cleanses over 600,000 ethnic Serbs from Croatia.
HAITI 1994-? Troops, naval Blockade against military government; troops restore President Aristide to office three years after coup.
ZAIRE (CONGO) 1996-97 Troops Marines at Rwandan Hutu refugee camps, in area where Congo revolution begins.
LIBERIA 1997 Troops Soldiers under fire during evacuation of foreigners.
ALBANIA 1997 Troops Soldiers under fire during evacuation of foreigners.
SUDAN 1998 Missiles Attack on pharmaceutical plant alleged to be "terrorist" nerve gas plant.
AFGHANISTAN 1998 Missiles Attack on former CIA training camps used by Islamic fundamentalist groups alleged to have attacked embassies.
IRAQ 1998-? Bombing, Missiles Four days of intensive air strikes after weapons inspectors allege Iraqi obstructions.
YUGOSLAVIA 1999 Bombing, Missiles Heavy NATO air strikes after Serbia declines to withdraw from Kosovo. NATO occupation of Kosovo.
YEMEN 2000 Naval USS Cole bombed.
MACEDONIA 2001 Troops NATO forces deployed to move and disarm Albanian rebels.
UNITED STATES 2001 Jets, naval Reaction to hijacker attacks on New York, DC
AFGHANISTAN 2001-? Troops, bombing, missiles Massive U.S. mobilization to overthrow Taliban, hunt Al Qaeda fighters, install Karzai regime. Forces also engaged in neighboring Pakistan.
YEMEN 2002 Missiles Predator drone missile attack on Al Qaeda, including a US citizen.
PHILIPPINES 2002 Troops, naval Training mission for Philippine military fighting Muslim Abu Sayyaf rebels evolves into US combat missions in Sulu Archipelago next to Mindanao.
COLOMBIA 2003-? Troops US special forces sent to rebel zone to back up Colombian military protecting oil pipeline.
IRAQ 2003-? Troops, naval, bombing, missiles Second Gulf War launched for "regime change" in Baghdad. US, joined by UK and Australia, attacks from Kuwait, other Gulf states, and European and US bases.
WHERE NEXT?

Nothing has changed about the US policy against other nations. Those few world wide who believe the US is a liberator should be educated with the truth about the US government and their colonialism. Their interest is not the well being of people but that their profits and hegemony is secured. US "liberation" = Slavery. More so, can this really be compared with the so-called "Communist atrocities"?

[colonelguppy]

welcome to global politics

bad shit sometimes happens

[colonelguppy]

oh yeah


More so, can this really be compared with the so-called "Communist atrocities"?

not really

i wouldn't say recent US actions qualify as colonialism either

[Colombia]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2005, 07:22 AM
welcome to global politics

bad shit sometimes happens
Sometimes?

How about all the time?

[colonelguppy]

Originally posted by Colombia+Oct 16 2005, 03:04 PM--> (Colombia @ Oct 16 2005, 03:04 PM)
[email protected] 16 2005, 07:22 AM
welcome to global politics

bad shit sometimes happens
Sometimes?

How about all the time? [/b]
yeah, that was an understatement

[Amusing Scrotum]

oh yeah



More so, can this really be compared with the so-called "Communist atrocities"?


not really


Seriously, if you combine the total number of deaths attributed to Communism without debating a single figure. They would be no match for the total amount killed either via slavery or the death toll of native Americans.

If you compare the total death toll, even using conservative figures with regards Capitalism and the figures against Communism used by the US (Which have been shown to be huge overestimations), you would find Communism is no match for the killing power of Capitalism.

[colonelguppy]

blaming the colonists for wiping out the indians with small pox is like blmaing north africa for the bubonic plague

most of the "communist atrocities" were infact directly intentional acts of the government, as were most the things on the list above

if were going to compare that list and the whole scope of communist governments, then of course the communists have a greater tally

[Amusing Scrotum]

blaming the colonists for wiping out the indians with small pox is like blmaing north africa for the bubonic plague


I think it is appropriate to blame the colonists when they took sheets with small pox on them to American and gave them to the native Americans. Plus while small pox did contribute to the death tally, a lot of native Americans were killed at gunpoint.

Also why do you call them Indians, they are native Americans. They don't come from India.


most of the "communist atrocities" were infact directly intentional acts of the government, as were most the things on the list above


Like what?

The starvation in China and Russia? Those killed by Soviet forces when Germany invaded, or those killed by Soviet Forces during the "Civil War", which was in no way a Civil War as just about every major Capitalist country had forces involved.

It would be interesting to see you name the exact events and death tolls of these "direct Communist atrocities".


if were going to compare that list and the whole scope of communist governments, then of course the communists have a greater tally

Come on them name the numbers. The widely used figure is 100 million. However both slavery and the genocide of the native Americans surpass this.

Even the most mathematically retarded person realises that the 160 million native Americans or the 80 million slaves who died in middle passage alone plus the countless other slaves who died in bondage or when being taken into slavery, surpasses even the highest estimates given of the Communist death toll.

Do yourself a huge favour and don't make such ignorant statements.

[colonelguppy]

blaming the colonists for wiping out the indians with small pox is like blmaing north africa for the bubonic plague
I think it is appropriate to blame the colonists when they took sheets with small pox on them to American and gave them to the native Americans. Plus while small pox did contribute to the death tally, a lot of native Americans were killed at gunpoint.

so what, we killed every single indian in some vast conspiracy using small pox blankets? no, that was a unique occurence, and is still dispicable. the majority aquired small pox through trade with settlers, and would then spread it among themselves and it gradually went west throughout the indian population. either, unintentional, and even the number killed at gun point is probably due mostly to armed conflict rather than "genocide"


Also why do you call them Indians, they are native Americans. They don't come from India.

:lol:

its accepted nomenclature. indian is shorter, and everyone gets the context. plus, it relates to a fun historical fact. i'm just doing my part to keep history alive :D



most of the "communist atrocities" were infact directly intentional acts of the government, as were most the things on the list above


Like what?

The starvation in China and Russia? Those killed by Soviet forces when Germany invaded, or those killed by Soviet Forces during the "Civil War", which was in no way a Civil War as just about every major Capitalist country had forces involved.

It would be interesting to see you name the exact events and death tolls of these "direct Communist atrocities".

well, as you mention below, 100 million is the accepted number. yeah, you've got several of the key ones, especailly the starvations and purges in china after the revolution. not too mention what happened in cambodia.



if were going to compare that list and the whole scope of communist governments, then of course the communists have a greater tally

Come on them name the numbers. The widely used figure is 100 million. However both slavery and the genocide of the native Americans surpass this.

Even the most mathematically retarded person realises that the 160 million native Americans or the 80 million slaves who died in middle passage alone plus the countless other slaves who died in bondage or when being taken into slavery, surpasses even the highest estimates given of the Communist death toll.

who or what are you attacking? america? mercantilism?

first of all, i'm refuting to the claim that those killed as a result of the actions on the list above were greater then thosed caused by communist revolutions/governments. clearly, as most on the list are peacekeeping operations, the number is less then 100 million.

second of all, gain some historical perspective. the overwhelming majoirty of indians were killed by spanish and portugese conquest in south and central america, and there they were enslaved. atleast in north america, we had somewhat of a peaceful co-existence and made some effort (however minimal) to get along. we traded, the spanish enslaved. so thats 160 million killed, most of which happened in south and central america, subtract the number who were killed from small pox gained through trade... basically, the number isn't that high. (there seems to be alot of speculation in this thread, so i'm going with it)

you site 80 million killed in the slave trade.... first of all, 90% of all slaves were sent to south america and the carribean. so divide the 80 million by ten. then, acount for the fact that the US government banned importing slaves in 1800, 20 years after the government was formed. so, lower that number to the amount that were killed during that window. the rest of that 8 million that went to N. america can be blamed on the british, if we are going to play the blame game (which i think it is clear that we are based on the starting post of this thread)

basically, even including the number who died due to abuse (which wasn't very much), it's less then 100 million


Do yourself a huge favour and don't make such ignorant statements.

lol k thnks

[Amusing Scrotum]

so what, we killed every single indian in some vast conspiracy using small pox blankets? no, that was a unique occurence, and is still dispicable. the majority aquired small pox through trade with settlers, and would then spread it among themselves and it gradually went west throughout the indian population. either, unintentional, and even the number killed at gun point is probably due mostly to armed conflict rather than "genocide"


"Trade with settlers" :lol:

The fact remains that the various colonial countries went to America and committed possibly the worst genocide in history. If you prefer to think of it as conquest, then may I suggest to you that Hitler wanted to conquer the Jews, Saddam Hussein wanted to conquer the Kurds etc. Outside conquest and genocide go hand in hand.

Also once again I will refer to my trusty friend Dictionary.com (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=genocide). It refers to genocide as -


the deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group

If you cannot equate this definition to what the colonial powers and later the American Government did to the native Americans. Then I really think you are perhaps the most ignorant person on this board, even more ignorant than the Stalinists'.


its accepted nomenclature. indian is shorter, and everyone gets the context. plus, it relates to a fun historical fact. i'm just doing my part to keep history alive

The accepted "nomenclature" is that they are either called native Americans or native American Indians. Not putting the native American before is a tool used by your average American to try and detach themselves from the guilt they may have for living on stolen land.

The whole point of "Cowboy and Indian" films, is to try and portray the Indians as savages and therefore justify and sometimes even glorify, the genocide on which modern day America is built.

This is not a concept I wish to buy into.


well, as you mention below, 100 million is the accepted number. yeah, you've got several of the key ones, especailly the starvations and purges in china after the revolution. not too mention what happened in cambodia.


I said 100 million is the number, which although being refuted numerous times, is still used by US authorities. Even if we accept this figure. I fail to see how the millions who starved in China, a country with less arable land than America but twice the population, are "directly intentional acts of the government". Please explain this.

The same could be said of those who starved in Russia during the "Civil War". This again was not "directly intentional acts of the government".

I also asked you to list these "Communist atrocities" you refer to. Stalins' purges, were in the main against Communist Party members' and their families. Tiananmen Square was against Communist students. The purges in China are pale in comparison to the War crimes committed by the Japanese Government. Those executed in Cuba after the revolution were all tried in court and later sentenced to death. Does the total amount of executions conducted by post revolutionary Cuba, even constitute a fraction of the innocent people executed in America. Shit, it doesn't even reach a tenth of the amount killed by the Batista Government.

I really can't wait to see what "Communist atrocities" you are going to pull out of your arse, because truth be told while there have been atrocities committed by Socialist Governments, they contribute a small amount to the figure of 100 million used by the professional liars who reside in Washington.

As for Cambodia, you referring to this as a "Communist atrocity" is at best laughable. The most significant death toll in Cambodia can be directly explained by the US bombing towards the end of the Vietnam war. This bombing according to some sources, resulted in twice as many deaths as those brought about by the Khmer Rouge. Thats close to 3 million people killed by America.
Also another notable fact, is that when Pol Pot started his murderous reign. Vietnam invaded to overthrow him. At this time the Khmer Rouge and Pol Pot received huge financial backing from America, which included massive arms shipments. Now the last time I checked America was not in the business of backing "Communist" countries.

Repeatedly resorting on half truths to make you case only makes you look like a complete buffoon.


who or what are you attacking? america? mercantilism?

first of all, i'm refuting to the claim that those killed as a result of the actions on the list above were greater then thosed caused by communist revolutions/governments. clearly, as most on the list are peacekeeping operations, the number is less then 100 million.

second of all, gain some historical perspective. the overwhelming majoirty of indians were killed by spanish and portugese conquest in south and central america, and there they were enslaved. atleast in north america, we had somewhat of a peaceful co-existence and made some effort (however minimal) to get along. we traded, the spanish enslaved. so thats 160 million killed, most of which happened in south and central america, subtract the number who were killed from small pox gained through trade... basically, the number isn't that high. (there seems to be alot of speculation in this thread, so i'm going with it)

you site 80 million killed in the slave trade.... first of all, 90% of all slaves were sent to south america and the carribean. so divide the 80 million by ten. then, acount for the fact that the US government banned importing slaves in 1800, 20 years after the government was formed. so, lower that number to the amount that were killed during that window. the rest of that 8 million that went to N. america can be blamed on the british, if we are going to play the blame game (which i think it is clear that we are based on the starting post of this thread)

basically, even including the number who died due to abuse (which wasn't very much), it's less then 100 million

I am attacking the actions of Capitalist countries in general, with specific emphasis given to America. I feel that if you are going to combine "Communist atrocities" then it is only fair to combine Capitalist atrocities. However I would also contest the death toll of America still surpasses that of the combined "Communist atrocities" you refer to. Even when using the false figure of 100 million.

Also what do you think constitute "peacekeeping operations", the millions killed by the American backed and funded Contras' in Nicaragua, or the various other "peace keeping" missions in South America which have accounted for death tolls in the millions. Or maybe the "peacekeeping operations" in Vietnam, Afghanistan, Yugoslavia, Sudan, the list could go on. Maybe your referring to the "peacekeeping operations" in Iraq, the Kurds gassed with American gas, or the civilians killed by American blanket bombing in 1990 and 2003, or the millions killed by US backed and imposed sanctions.
Admittedly a portion of these deaths have been caused by either client states or mercenaries hired by America. However this makes little difference as they were funded and supplied by America, making them a mere extension of the normal American military.

Also while some of the native Americans killed by the original colonial powers, your statement fails to account for the systematic culling of the native Americans' over a 250 year period, most of which America has spent as an independent country. It is also useful to note that out of the 371 treaties made by the US government with the native Americans, the United States Government has violated 370 of those treaties.

Despite all your statements shifting the blame onto South American countries, I would still confidently contest that the direct death toll of American actions surpasses the exaggerated number of 100 million given to "Communist atrocities". Which by the way includes starvation and I would imagine, given the consistent factual inaccuracies and downright lies of the American elites, old age.

[Freedom Works]

" President Grant proposed the annexation of Santo Domingo, another expansionist venture that ultimately failed. Before being elected president, and while still commander of the U.S. Army, Grant gave General Sherman the assignment, in July of 1865, of conducting a campaign of ethnic genocide against the Plains Indians to make way for the government-subsidized railroads. "We are not going to let a few thieving, ragged Indians check and stop the progress of the railroads," Sherman wrote to Grant in 1866. "We must act with vindictive earnestness against the Sioux, even to their extermination, men women and children.
The eradication of the Plains Indians was yet another subsidy to the railroad industry, albeit an indirect one. Rather than paying for rights of way across Indian lands, as James J. Hill's nonsubsidized Great Northern Railroad did, the government-subsidized Union Pacific and Central Pacific Railroads got the government to either kill of place on reservations every last Indian by 1890." -The Real Lincoln, Thomas DiLorenzo

[Osman Ghazi]

Wow, isn't the blame game fun?

It's nice to throw around big numbers. It makes you feel like a big man, eh?

But, there are some slight problems with the numbers you guys are throwing around, the main one being that the number of people apparently killed either by communism or capitalism is greater than the number of people who died. Big problem huh?

For example, today's historians put the number of native peoples in the pre-Colombian era at between 20 and 80 million, so how did the US kill more natives than ever existed?

Besides which, America and British North America in general sits astride the least densely populated and vastest stretch of the Americas. Maybe 1-2 million natives at any one time ever lived on the geographic area currently known as the United States.

Likewise, with slavery. Only 20 million slaves were ever exported from Africa, just over half across the Trans-Atlantic route, and just under half across the Trans-Saharan route. And besides which, there were hardly any European 'slavers' in the sense of people who went into the interior and captured slaves. They didn't have to.

All they had to do was stroll into port at Weda or Calabar or Dakar and a dozen shipments of slaves would be waiting for them. The economy of the entire Guinea coast (from Senegal to Angola) and most of the inland societies were dependant upon trading slaves for guns, clothes, and other European accoutrements. Only deep in the interior of sub-Saharan Africa and the Southeastern coast were African societies relatively free of domestic and export slavery.

As to the 100 million killed by communism, well no one in their right mind accepts that number as true or anywhere close to it. I remember having an argument where my detractors claimed not that 100 million were killed by communism, but in the Soviet Union alone. Now, that was obviously totally ridiculous, because such a number is about half of the population of the Soviet Union at any given time, and a full 5/6ths of the population of Russia today.

But then they throw the exact same number at all of communism, a fact which is in itself very sketchy, but then on top of that, they make no differentiation between Leninism, Maoism, socialism, anarchism, or even communism. Not of course, that anyone who believes that number has the mental capacity to define let alone differentiate between them. But if you absolutely have to label every death "caused" by a person who claims to be progressive into a single category, we have to define "cause."

What I mean is, does incompetence count?

For example, during the great flop og the Great Leap Forward, tens or possibly even hundreds of thousands or more died because of famine. So, does the particular incompetence of the members of the CPC constitute "directly intentional acts of the government" aimed at democide?

By the way, if you guys are wondering, I'm not a history buff but rather a double-major in History and Political Science. Understanding what really happened, why what really happened happened, and why all the different sides, both as groups and individuals like you guys skew the facts of what really happened to suit your own agendas is the most interesting thing in the world for a guy like me.

[CrazyModerate]

Originally posted by colonelguppy+Oct 16 2005, 08:19 PM--> (colonelguppy @ Oct 16 2005, 08:19 PM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2005, 03:04 PM

[email protected] 16 2005, 07:22 AM
welcome to global politics

bad shit sometimes happens
Sometimes?

How about all the time?
yeah, that was an understatement [/b]
Yeah, and the bad shit is caused by the USA.

[Amusing Scrotum]

Osman Ghazi out of interest I would like to know what your sources are, particularly on the issue of slavery.

Also been as you are a self confessed neutral, according to your estimates would you say the total number of "Communist atrocities" is greater or smaller than the direct deaths caused by the American Government.

[Dimentio]

A tragic weakness that I have seen within the leftist movement is their emotional reaction to apparent American hypocrisy. The reason why some people reacts so vehemently against America is that America according to itself represents everything that is good, but that is under no case an excuse for backlashing at America, that only alienates the American leftist movement in relation to the American society.

Instead of building up an anti-movement, leftists should build up something on an own value that is stronger and more attractive than simple anti-americanism.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

A tragic weakness that I have seen within the leftist movement is their emotional reaction to apparent American hypocrisy. The reason why some people reacts so vehemently against America is that America according to itself represents everything that is good, but that is under no case an excuse for backlashing at America, that only alienates the American leftist movement in relation to the American society.

It's not a "backlash" when imperialism is actually happening


Instead of building up an anti-movement, leftists should build up something on an own value that is stronger and more attractive than simple anti-americanism.

Yes, it's called a better society. Do you seriously think that communist and anarchist movement do no more than protest against imperialism?

[Amusing Scrotum]

A tragic weakness that I have seen within the leftist movement is their emotional reaction to apparent American hypocrisy. The reason why some people reacts so vehemently against America is that America according to itself represents everything that is good, but that is under no case an excuse for backlashing at America, that only alienates the American leftist movement in relation to the American society.

Instead of building up an anti-movement, leftists should build up something on an own value that is stronger and more attractive than simple anti-americanism.

... because the technocrats of course have such a big and wide spreading movement which everyone agrees with. My fucking arse. How many technocrats do you meet at anti war marches, or any other kind of protest for that matter. Technocracy is the last bastion of hope for the sexually repressed adult male, who was bullied constantly at school and is one of the few people to have read any of Stephen Hawking's books. Do me a favour and suspend your criticisms until the time when technocracy actually does something for the good of mankind.

[Morpheus]

For example, today's historians put the number of native peoples in the pre-Colombian era at between 20 and 80 million, so how did the US kill more natives than ever existed?

20-80 million is a single generation of natives (although a few historians put the count higher). The genocide of Native Americans is happening over a 500 year span, many many generations. The survivors of the first wave of massacres had children, and then those children were massacred and the survivors of those massacres had children, etc. Over several generations, the total killed exceeded the number who lived in the 1 pre-columbian generation.


Besides which, America and British North America in general sits astride the least densely populated and vastest stretch of the Americas. Maybe 1-2 million natives at any one time ever lived on the geographic area currently known as the United States.

Just because the Spanish did more genocide than the British doesn't make it okay or exculpate capitalism & imperialism.

[Osman Ghazi]

20-80 million is a single generation of natives (although a few historians put the count higher).

True. 20-80 million is the highest number to ever exist, at around 1493. Personally, I put the number in modern day Mexico and central america at about 12-15 million, the number on the west coast of south america at about 10-12 million and the remaining area between 5-7 million. This gives an approximate value of between 27-34 million. I base this mostly on the fact that those in the 'other' areas subsisted by hunting-gathering in most cases, which leads to low population density. We know that Tenochtitlan was quite possibly the biggest city in the world at this time with around 250,000 inhabitants, but, since they thrived on war, and particularly on a system of tribute from subject peoples and cities, we know that the area around Tenochtitlan wasn't anywhere near as prosperous. In the empire of the Incas, a similar level of development to the Mexica was present.

However, the shock of disease caused a rapid decline within a single generation. We now know that almost all major diseases spread to human beings usually from domesticated animals. In this case it was pigs. When Cristobal Colon returned to Hispaniola on his second voyage, he found that an island that had been inhabited by a few hundred thousand natives and some recently arrived pigs had turned into an island inhabited by thousands of pigs, and the few rag-tag bands of natives that remained were soon pressed into forced labour for Spanish benefit.

So, within a generation, the population could have declined to around 15-20 million (recall that fully a third of the European population was wiped out by the bubonic plague) or even less. When Fernando Cortes arrived in Tenochtitlan to take the city in 1519, the city had been ravaged by three epidemics in as many years.


Over several generations, the total killed exceeded the number who lived in the 1 pre-columbian generation.


Does 'killed' include the deaths caused by the importation of livestock? Being totally ignorant of disease vectors, as they were at the time, it could not have been a deliberate act. And yet, this is thought to account for at least 80% of the deaths of natives. Yes, there were incidents in which disease was deliberately spread, but its effect could not have been more than 3-5%.

I would say, that the amount of deaths directly attributable to Europeans (not including the unintentional spread of disease, but including the deaths caused by the system of forced labour through which la republica de los indios paid their taxes) was roughly equal to the amount that existed at the time of the Conquest.


The genocide of Native Americans is happening over a 500 year span, many many generations.

500 years? I don't know about that. By 1600 in the former spheres of influence of the 'Aztec' (Mexica) and Inca empires, the process of mestizaje had already begun. Does it count as killing a native if his father was a Spaniard?


Just because the Spanish did more genocide than the British doesn't make it okay or exculpate capitalism & imperialism.

:lol: :lol: Okay, tell you what, next, let's evaluate the 'morality' of feudalism. :lol: You can't 'blame' historical systems, only the people in them. Look, no one disputes that capitalism is immoral. It was called just the same by the feudal leaders who feared its power. The only disputable thing is its utility or disutility in our society.

Also, since the Spanish weren't capitalist, wouldn't it mean that it was imperialism, and not capitalism that drove the engine of genocide?


Osman Ghazi out of interest I would like to know what your sources are, particularly on the issue of slavery.

It was a chart that i had written down from my Modern African History class. It showed the extent of the export of slaves in the period between 600-1400 CE, as well as the approximate numbers for each century up to the 19th. The first period surprisingly accounts for almost 20% of the total and the Trans-Saharan route also had a renaissance toward the end of slavery, as African kingdoms that had grown dependant on the raiding for and export of slaves struggled to find new markets. What you come to learn about slavery is that it existed in African society, as in all societies, but soon became a production-scale export business.

Don't get me wrong. Because they were far likelier to have similar traditions to their masters, slaves in Africa were usually far better treated and led far richer lives than their American counterparts. But the slavers were, in almost all cases, Africans themselves. People often ask how they could enslave their own kind, but that makes no sense.

This pan-african bullshit that exists in the Americas was and is completely unknown in Africa. So why wouldn't a Fulani enslave a Hausa, or an Oyo a Benin? Or more importantly, why wouldn't the Kings of Ashanti and Dahomey enslave all the peoples around them, and expand their power at the cost of the lives of their enemies?

As to the question of 'communist' atrocities, they come in three types. The genuine kind, committed by people with little or no power, slaughtering their long-time oppressors mercilessly. Then there are the type caused by powerful people within this movement in order to cement their eventual leadership. The third is the kind that occurs in states that are nominally socialist or communist, by leaders who are unwilling to abandon the postion that riding the revolutionary wave has brought them.

Really, only the first could actually be considered a 'communist atrocity,' although some of the second category could be said to be as well. Was Tiananmen Square a communist atrocity? Not really. The economic agenda they espouse in China is certainly neither socialist or communist, and their politics is simply that of maintaining the rule of the current political elite. They do however trap themselves in the cloak of communism and its rhetoric, and because of the this, many group them within the larger group of 'communist atrocities'.

Actual communist atrocities are quite small in number, and tend to be spontaneous, and because they strike out at generally prominent elites, their victims tend to be few in number. However, if it occurs in one place at one time, it is likely to be occuring all over the country.

If you want to include anyone who ever called themself a communist on the list, including Pol Pot, then yes, I think the number exceeds that of American-caused casualties. But, we have to qualify what a communist is. If Pol Pot was so radical for example, why did he recieve funding from the arch-nemesis of communism and why was he attacked by another group of communists?

In other cases, administrative incompetence leading to famine, particularly in China and in the Ukraine, is also added to this number, innappropriately, I feel.

In the end, who gives a flying fuck? The existence of either capitalism or communism should not be dependant how many people they killed or didn't kill, nor on the morality that they claim to provide. Rather, it should be based on either their utility or disutility to humanity in general.

[Comrade Hector]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2005, 07:35 AM
not really

i wouldn't say recent US actions qualify as colonialism either
Does neo-colonialism suit you better than just colonialism?

Also you refuse to aknowledge the wiping out of Native Americans as genocide? So do you deny that the US government forced them off their lands, and forced them into reservations?

I don't remember the name of the US officer but I know he was responsible for the genocide against the Nez Perce people. Before the massacre he publicy declared "In the name of God we must kill these savages". Bottom line is, your kind's accusations about so-called "Communist Genocide" is nothing more than arrogance based on exaggerated sources. Genocide qualifies better to the United States and its allies as opposed to the Communists as I have just proven.

[Freedom Works]

Don't you Communists claim it is not murder to kill bourgeoisie?

[Ownthink]

Originally posted by Freedom [email protected] 23 2005, 08:18 AM
Don't you Communists claim it is not murder to kill bourgeoisie?
Nobody ever said it "wasn't murder". We just said we were okay with it.

[Andy Bowden]

Considering the present Bourgeoise inherited their power from people who murdered Kings, Queens and Princes all across Europe it's pretty hypocritical for them to complain about the violence that may be needed to establish Socialism.

Ideally I would - and Im sure most Socialists would - favour a peaceful takeover by the working class over the bourgeoise, but as Chile, Nicaragua et al show it is a fantasy to believe the Bourgeoise will comply with democracy when it opposes their aims.