Communism and religion

[Northern Revolutionary]

Is it possible to be a communist and christian at the same time or is there room for religion in communism ? I dont know if this is the right forum to post this topic.

[Urban Guerrilla]

I don't see why not. All that aside, religion will have absolutely nothing to do with government law :che:

[CrazyModerate]

I think it can exist atleast on a personal level, but preaching is questionable. I think most will say it can't exist at all.

And religion does have things to do with goverment law. THe Catholic Church used to represent large portions of what was the "government" in the middle ages. Thankfully it lost power. BUt now preachers can influence voters. And many preachers are extremists(such as pat robertson), and many preachers trick their followers into accepting unjust society.

The entire evangelical movement in the USA has tricked their followers into believing war and capitalism are ideal.

[Urban Guerrilla]

What I was stating is that in a Communist society, that religion will have nothing to do with the law of the people. I understand what you are saying about the preachers and the voting, but that is ill minded of a person, because in logic no man can know what God is thinking :che:

[which doctor]

Some will tell you that communism and religion cannot co-exist peacefully, but I believe they can. As long as you don't try to enforce our beliefs on others, don't let your beliefs get in the way you function in society, keep your religion to yourself, and don't spend too much time dwelling on the subject of religion. Oh yeah one more, DON"T BE A JESUS FREAK! or hypocritical. Personally I'm an agnostic who thinks that there is no way to tell that there is or isn't a god so debating on the subject is trivial.

[CrazyModerate]

Originally posted by Urban [email protected] 15 2005, 04:46 PM
What I was stating is that in a Communist society, that religion will have nothing to do with the law of the people. I understand what you are saying about the preachers and the voting, but that is ill minded of a person, because in logic no man can know what God is thinking :che:
Ok, I thought you said religion had no influence on government these days.

[Fidelbrand]

At a personal level, without the preaching.

[CrazyModerate]

The thing I'm not sure about is people congregating to discuss theology as equals, or to prayer in groups and stuff like that, but without one "leader" "priest" "scolar" or some other religous leader preaching how it should be interpreted.

[ComradeOm]

I'm not so sure that the two can co-exist at all :unsure: While I generally lean towards the above sentiments regarding personal religion, as opposed to the organised sort, I’m starting to wonder whether the two are incompatible. Basically most religions believe that some deity is up in the clouds while keeping an eye on affairs on the ground. Historical materialism rejects the idea that there is any divine intervention in human affairs – history progresses due to the relations of production and the class antagonisms that grow out of these. So really if you believe that there is a god up there directing events then you’re in direct conflict with Marx’s theories.

[CrazyModerate]

How do those things oppose eachother. If people believe a god exists that doesn't intervene, then how is there a problem.

Why must we follow exactly what Marx said. You know, he was wrong about a lot of things. He said there would be massive revolutions before the turn of the century in Europe.

A lot has changed since Marx died. You can't follow exactly what he said word for word.

What does the history of the world and the existence or non existance of a god(s) have to do with the problems capitalism creates.

[viva le revolution]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2005, 06:22 PM

Ok, I thought you said religion had no influence on government these days.
Religion has no place in government policy, despite what you may hear. All foreign policy is determined by economic factors. The clash of civilizations much touted is nothing more than a land grab and buffet for crude oil.
The religious right in the land of the yankees does not function to spread or safeguard morality, but only to condemn government policy adversaries in language that can be understood by the lowest common denominator of intelligence. To condemn 'rogue' states with old rhetoric and furthur the yankee policy of demonisation of the enemy, to help yankee propaganda.
It isn't altar boys or donations that keep the televangelists on the air, nor the large organizations, that are funded by the government, through covert means or subsidies, or tax cuts, to keep them in business as an efficient proganda tool spouting off dogma and rhetoric conducive to yankee foreign policy.
It isn't about god, it's about the moolah!

[ComradeOm]

How do those things oppose eachother. If people believe a god exists that doesn't intervene, then how is there a problem.

Why must we follow exactly what Marx said. You know, he was wrong about a lot of things. He said there would be massive revolutions before the turn of the century in Europe.

A lot has changed since Marx died. You can't follow exactly what he said word for word.

What does the history of the world and the existence or non existance of a god(s) have to do with the problems capitalism creates.
Of course blindly following every word Marx, or anyone, says is stupid and no better than religion. But historical materialism is a fairly crucial aspect of Marx’s work. It explains how the theories apply to past history and how capitalism will similarly be overthrown. If you attach any weight to Marx’s teachings then this is not a concept that you can easily jettison.

Where does this feed into religion? Simple. Historical materialism shows that all past, and future, history is determined by economic factors (ie the relations of production). Politics and religion (the church, not the god) can influence history but it is ultimately the economic base that directs it. There’s no overriding human ideal or divine intervention that directs affairs, its purely a matter of material conditions.

Now you try and relate the above paragraph to religion. How many religions, or those that follow them, believe that there is a god that doesn't intervene in human affairs? The entire point of religion is that there is someone up there who gives a damn and who can help you out in a pickle. If you’re a devout believer then you don’t agree with historical materialism (and then I’d seriously doubt whether you were a Marxist) because you believe that history is a series of events directed by god or at least part of a divine struggle between good and evil.

[drain.you]

I only see one problem with communism and religion co-exisiting and it is as follows

Religion is the opium of the people

Its peoples way of searching for hope in the epochs were man is exploited by man. In a communist world, hope will not have to be searched for, everyone will be equal, the world will be a better place, it won't matter if Gods exist because people will be happy with life, won't have to pray for hope and such like they used to.
I suppose it won't entirely fade a way. Maybe Budhism will rise in popularity. Catholicism fade more so? I dunno. Its hard to say.
If it continues to exist then I don't see why it cant apart from the above, people are entitled to their own belief systems but RELIGION SHOULD NOT INTERFERE WITH POLITCS AND EDUCATION DIRECTLY.
:P

[anomaly]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2005, 03:07 PM
I'm not so sure that the two can co-exist at all :unsure: While I generally lean towards the above sentiments regarding personal religion, as opposed to the organised sort, I’m starting to wonder whether the two are incompatible. Basically most religions believe that some deity is up in the clouds while keeping an eye on affairs on the ground. Historical materialism rejects the idea that there is any divine intervention in human affairs – history progresses due to the relations of production and the class antagonisms that grow out of these. So really if you believe that there is a god up there directing events then you’re in direct conflict with Marx’s theories.
But in writing this you completely disregard the idea of God giving free will to humans. How can God direct one's events if He, at the same time, gives one free will? That is a contradiction. I know of very, very few people, religious or otherwise, who hold to that silly idea of fate. God has, in truth, one plan for all of us: to live. What we decide to do with that life is something with which God cannot interfere. On these grounds, I say that religion and communism are certainly compatible.

[anomaly]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2005, 04:42 PM

How do those things oppose eachother. If people believe a god exists that doesn't intervene, then how is there a problem.

Why must we follow exactly what Marx said. You know, he was wrong about a lot of things. He said there would be massive revolutions before the turn of the century in Europe.

A lot has changed since Marx died. You can't follow exactly what he said word for word.

What does the history of the world and the existence or non existance of a god(s) have to do with the problems capitalism creates.
Of course blindly following every word Marx, or anyone, says is stupid and no better than religion. But historical materialism is a fairly crucial aspect of Marx’s work. It explains how the theories apply to past history and how capitalism will similarly be overthrown. If you attach any weight to Marx’s teachings then this is not a concept that you can easily jettison.

Where does this feed into religion? Simple. Historical materialism shows that all past, and future, history is determined by economic factors (ie the relations of production). Politics and religion (the church, not the god) can influence history but it is ultimately the economic base that directs it. There’s no overriding human ideal or divine intervention that directs affairs, its purely a matter of material conditions.

Now you try and relate the above paragraph to religion. How many religions, or those that follow them, believe that there is a god that doesn't intervene in human affairs? The entire point of religion is that there is someone up there who gives a damn and who can help you out in a pickle. If you’re a devout believer then you don’t agree with historical materialism (and then I’d seriously doubt whether you were a Marxist) because you believe that history is a series of events directed by god or at least part of a divine struggle between good and evil.
Christianity is one of those 'few religions' which believes that God does not interfere. On the issue of prayer, God, according to Christians, really just says yes or no, depending upon reasoning we cannot hope to understand (I'm sure you atheists love that little part, don't you). But, in truth, Christianity teaches that God has, essentially, deserted the human race for awhile. Because of this, Christianity, in and of itself, does not conflict with Marx's theories. Now, I am referring to only basic Christian dogma. With the poorly translated King James Bible out there, one bad translation may very well conflict with Marx, and certainly some well translated verses do. But basic Christian dogman can easily coexist with Marxism.

[ComradeOm]

That sounds a lot like deism to me anomaly and certainly nothing like the Catholic beliefs I was raised with. On one level you pray to God in times of need and hope that He will save you via a miracle. That’s hardly unusual but I’m of two minds as to whether it actually has an impact on historical progress. Still, from everything that I’ve ever learnt or heard Christianity - while not explicitly laying out that God has a master plan for us all, though that belief is popular in a number of countries – preaches the divine struggle. Satan is there to tempt man but, luckily for us, there are a host of angels protecting us blah blah blah. In short – divine interference in the affairs of man.

From a more theological standpoint, and I’m not that keen to tread here, an all powerful god is, well all powerful really. Let’s assume he exists. Free choice is available but do you really think that history anywhere is progressing down anything but His desired route? He may not even be actively promoting it (though the arrival of His son suggests otherwise) but it is impossible for the creation of such a being to deviate from the intended plan. After all, omnipotent means more than being able to hurl lightning.

To be honest I'm still struggling to come to terms with my own religious beliefs so a lot of this is thinking out loud. Maybe I'm trying to convince myself. Meh.

[Dimentio]

Maybe slightly off-topic, since I am neither a christian nor a communist, but I do not know why communists historically have targeted organised religion. Of course, the churches are often a stronghold of remaining reactionary forces, but since they often holds a certain popularity, the best thing would be to offer them cooperation. If Lenin - for example - had used the strategy of connecting the communist ideology with orthodoxy, the support of the bolsheviks would have increased on the countryside.

In the present-time Russia, about two thirds of the population counts themselves as Christians, despite 70 years of active persecution of the church. A majority of the Russians want the orthodox church to handle education.

In Sweden, we have about 30-40% Christians, and most of them are only Value-christians, which means that they are agnostics who upholds the Lutheran values in some issues.

The Swedish church itself could largely be said to be run by socialists. It has done very much in order to help immigrants, people with alternative sexualities as well as supporting cultural projects which could be said to be "progressive".

[ComradeOm]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2005, 10:46 AM
Maybe slightly off-topic, since I am neither a christian nor a communist, but I do not know why communists historically have targeted organised religion. Of course, the churches are often a stronghold of remaining reactionary forces, but since they often holds a certain popularity, the best thing would be to offer them cooperation. If Lenin - for example - had used the strategy of connecting the communist ideology with orthodoxy, the support of the bolsheviks would have increased on the countryside.

In the present-time Russia, about two thirds of the population counts themselves as Christians, despite 70 years of active persecution of the church. A majority of the Russians want the orthodox church to handle education.

In Sweden, we have about 30-40% Christians, and most of them are only Value-christians, which means that they are agnostics who upholds the Lutheran values in some issues.

The Swedish church itself could largely be said to be run by socialists. It has done very much in order to help immigrants, people with alternative sexualities as well as supporting cultural projects which could be said to be "progressive".
Historically the reason for the conflict between communism and religion has been because religious organisations have often, if not always, been highly reactionary organisations that have actively opposed revolutionary proletarian movements. Why should the Orthodox Church in Russia have allied itself with a movement that vowed to strip its members of their land and privilages? Even today I'd imagine that it is difficult to find a priest that supports revolutionary change.

Of course there are other, deeper, issues in this dispute with organised religion. Marx’s infamous quote was perfectly correct. Religion was, and is, used to direct the support of the masses towards the very classes that oppress them. In early feudal times this was the primary tool for keeping the serfs in line. Obviously communism wanted to change that and open people’s eyes as to the true nature of the bourgeoisie. Remember also that the clergy represent a very distinct class of their own. This was particularly apparent in medieval times where bishops ran entire towns but still holds true today. Yet another reason for them to oppose massive social change.

[Dimentio]

The Orthodox church did not, except for popular support, have any [political] power in Russia in year 1917. Peter the Great had already crushed the Patriarchate and made it a substitute for the Imperial state in the 18th century. All the Bolsheviks would have to do was to make a power swift inside the church.

As it looks now, the persecution of the Orthodox church seems to have failed.

[tatu]

Originally posted by Northern [email protected] 15 2005, 04:29 PM
Is it possible to be a communist and christian at the same time or is there room for religion in communism ? I dont know if this is the right forum to post this topic.

Try:
Lenin - Socialism and Religion (http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1905/dec/03.htm)
Rosa Luxemburg - Socialism and The Churches (http://www.newyouth.com/archives/classics/luxemburg/socialismandthechurches.html)

Tat.

[danny android]

A communist society should not infringe on anyones human rights, religion in my mind is a human right. People should be allowed to believe what they believe and to organize with others who believe the same way. Whether or not the organization has some form of hierarchy with priests and bishops or whatever should be decided by the people involved in that particular religious organization.

[Guest1]

This should be in opposing ideologies, under the religion subforum.

[Black Dagger]

A communist society should not infringe on anyones human rights, religion in my mind is a human right.

Un(fortunately!) religion is not a 'human right', it's a tool of opression- and is in fact commonly used to justify human rights abuses.



People should be allowed to believe what they believe and to organize with others who believe the same way.

Except when those organisations and beliefs promote anti-communist/revolutionary attitudes, homophobia/heterosexism, sexism, racism, and basically any reactionary position you can come up with except maybe fascism, although 'the church' has managed to get itself involved with a few fascist regimes/orgs. over-time.



Whether or not the organization has some form of hierarchy with priests and bishops or whatever should be decided by the people involved in that particular religious organization.

Except that this is not the case. Because the hierarchy of 'the church' is the will of 'god'- these are 'his' chosen representatives- and one of the central messages of monotheism is obedience/submission to 'god's will'. It's not 'christian' to question the religous hierarchy or challenge the authority of 'god' or 'the church'- because a good 'christian' is meant to obey both, completely- to 'have faith' and trust in their authority.

How you can mentally justify being a so-called 'anarcho-communist' with a support for one of history's most reactionary anti-communist hierarchies i'll never know.

[ComradeOm]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2005, 11:56 AM
The Orthodox church did not, except for popular support, have any [political] power in Russia in year 1917. Peter the Great had already crushed the Patriarchate and made it a substitute for the Imperial state in the 18th century. All the Bolsheviks would have to do was to make a power swift inside the church.

As it looks now, the persecution of the Orthodox church seems to have failed.
All the more reason for the Bolsheviks to remove the church then. Remember that this was a revolution, the aim was to sweep away all traces of the old regime.

The persecution of the Church ended during WWII when Stalin began to increasingly rely of traditional Russian heroes to inspire the masses. After that it was more or less allowed to exist.

[Sanjee]

I think that many people Think wrong about communism and Religion..
Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels didn't mean that religion was bad and that it should be Denied in all forms...But they ment that you shouldn't let Religion Take over the power over the society..

A lot of people think that Religoin is something what never must exicst in Communism..
And that's not the right way to think about Religion and Communism...
People who are against Communism are going to abuse this..
For an Example : In Afghanistan the Mujahedin told the people that the Communists in Afghanistan where non religious people...so all the Extremist Muslims fought against the Communist Party...

If people try to craete a communistic Nation where religion is forbiden, then i must tell you that you're going to start on something what can never have a good result..

Religion is something that helps you to become a good Humane , but most of the religions that exicst in this time are form thousands of years ago, and a lot of people think that the things that where a thousand years ago are still the same as today...
But if you can convince these people that religion isn't the same as back than, then you'll have a lot of new people who are supporting you in what you do...

Lenin did this the wrong way he abused his power and just shuted the whole place down... Now there are a lot of Christian Russians who hate communism because they say that the communists forbid there religion...

So i think that Communism and Religion is a good combination, but religion has to change by it's time

[Zingu]

Short answer:

No.


We've repeated this topic so many times.

A Communist CANNOT be religous, its a contradiction in terms.

[STI]

Zingu's right. There's a sticky in this (Religion) forum about this exact issue. If you read through that and have something to contribute, that's the place to do it. That's why stickies exist.

[guerrillero]

Fidel Castro had all the churches removed from Cuba and not too long ago (a little bit before the Pope`s visit) he allowed them. From what I understand and from my research, it was recommended by the USSR... Religion and state must be seperate entity`s.. is how Castro put it.

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by Northern Revolutionary+--> (Northern Revolutionary)Is it possible to be a communist and Christian at the same time?[/b]

No.


Or is there room for religion in communism?

No.


Originally posted by Fist of Blood+--> (Fist of Blood)Some will tell you that communism and religion cannot co-exist peacefully, but I believe they can.[/b]

Well, much turns on what you actually mean by the word "peacefully" in this context.

To a Christian, the communist act of demolishing cathedrals is not "peaceful" at all.

On the other hand, the Christian myth of communists "shooting all believers" or "putting them in jail" just "because they're religious" is pretty ridiculous.

We intend (or should intend!) to do "to" the Christians no more than what they did to their own predecessors. We will prohibit the public manifestations of their superstitions...in the certain knowledge that religion "withers away" in the dark.


Originally posted by CrazyModerate
If people believe [that] a god exists that doesn't intervene [in our universe], then how is there a problem?

Speaking purely abstractly, there is no "problem" with such a belief.

But there would be no purpose in "worshiping" such an utterly indifferent deity...or even caring whether anyone else "believed" in it or not.

And this would logically imply that all those who claimed to "speak for god" were and are liars and all "holy books" that purport to tell us "how god wants us to live" are brazen forgeries.

A "god" that "doesn't intervene" in our universe is not very useful.


Why must we follow exactly what Marx said?

That's not really the point. What modern and serious revolutionaries must ask themselves now is more along the lines of: what did Marx actually say about this or that particular controversy and was he right or was he wrong about this?

For example...

What Did Marx "Get Wrong"? (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=41614)


What does the history of the world and the existence or non-existence of a god(s) have to do with the problems capitalism creates?

Both religion and capitalism have histories. They are "the way they are" because of the specific material conditions that gave birth to them and shaped them over the centuries of their existence.

The world is not like an old-style "blackboard" that you could just "wipe clean" and then write "whatever you wanted" on it.

Indeed, the project of "changing the world" has turned out to be much more complicated than revolutionaries once thought it would be.

To take just the example you cited, it was once believed by nearly everyone that prayer was the only way to "change the world".

There are still a lot of people who believe that.

And they are and have always been WRONG!

In fact, "prayer" changes nothing because there are no gods.

Thus it becomes very important to completely discredit this false theory of "how to change the world".

That is what we really mean by the word "learning", is it not? We reject whatever misconceptions that we held on a particular subject due to our ignorance and accept a more accurate understanding of that subject.

When one rejects entirely all supernatural "theories", then one can learn how the world really works.

And then, if one desires, one can effectively CHANGE IT.


Originally posted by viva le revolution
It isn't about god, it's about the moolah!

Yes indeed. Beneath all the godbabble of our era is a very grubby capitalist ethic.

My father's a great tv preacher.
My mother speaks out against sin.
My sister fucks network producers.
My God, how the money rolls in!

Or see...

A Glimpse into the Godracket (http://www.redstar2000papers.com/theory.php?subaction=showfull&id=1114361146&archive=&cnshow=headlines&start_from=&ucat=&)


Originally posted by anomaly
Christianity is one of those 'few religions' which believes that God does not interfere. On the issue of prayer, God, according to Christians, really just says yes or no, depending upon reasoning we cannot hope to understand (I'm sure you atheists love that little part, don't you). But, in truth, Christianity teaches that God has, essentially, deserted the human race for awhile.

:lol:

Resisting the temptation to have some rhetorical fun with this one, I think some evidence of what Christians really believe is in order here.


Originally posted by Jeff Sharlet
After church, I walked across the parking lot to the World Prayer Center, where I watched prayers scroll over two giant flat-screen televisions while a young man played piano. The Prayer Center—a joint effort of several fundamentalist organizations but located at and presided over by New Life—houses a bookstore that when I visited was called the Arsenal (its name has since been changed to Solomon’s Porch), as well as “corporate” prayer rooms, personal “prayer closets,” hotel rooms, and the headquarters of Global Harvest, a ministry dedicated to “spiritual warfare.” (The Prayer Center’s nickname in the fundamentalist world is “spiritual NORAD.”)...

In the chapel are several computer terminals, where one can sign on to the World Prayer Team and enter a prayer. Eventually one’s words will scroll across the large flat screens, as well as across the screens around the world, which as many as 70,000 other Prayer Team members are watching at any point in time. Prayers range from the mundane (real-estate deals and job situations demand frequent attention) to the urgent...

Soldiers of Christ -- Inside America's most powerful megachurch (http://harpers.org/SoldiersOfChrist.html)

I highly recommend this article for its insights into Christian fascism in the United States.


Originally posted by Serpent
Maybe slightly off-topic, since I am neither a Christian nor a communist, but I do not know why communists historically have targeted organised religion. Of course, the churches are often a stronghold of remaining reactionary forces, but since they often hold a certain popularity, the best thing would be to offer them cooperation.

Well, as you said, you are "not a communist"...so you don't know that real communists do not "cooperate" with reactionary forces.

Even if they're "popular".


In the present-time Russia, about two thirds of the population counts themselves as Christians, despite 70 years of active persecution of the church. A majority of the Russians want the orthodox church to handle education.

:lol:

Have you been hanging out at Eastern Orthodox websites lately?

I very much doubt if more than 5% of modern Russians have any use for religion at all. The idea that education should be run by the church is so reactionary that even most Americans would reject it.


The Swedish church itself could largely be said to be run by socialists. It has done very much in order to help immigrants, people with alternative sexualities as well as supporting cultural projects which could be said to be "progressive".

Possibly true...but remember that Swedish "socialists" are actually bourgeois reformists who have no intention whatsoever of challenging the fundamental class relationships of Swedish capitalist society.


Originally posted by danny android
A communist society should not infringe on anyone's human rights; religion in my mind is a human right.

Capitalists think that "profit" is a "human right". Slaveowners thought that "owning slaves" was a "human right".

Preachers think that fleecing the suckers is a "human right".

Communists think that growing up in an environment completely free of toxic superstitions is a "human right".

We'll see whose version of "human rights" prevails.


[email protected]
Religion is something that helps you to become a good Human.

:lol:

That's like saying the AIDS virus "improves your health".


guerrillero
Fidel Castro had all the churches removed from Cuba and not too long ago (a little bit before the Pope`s visit) he allowed them.

On the matter of Fidel Castro's bizarre infatuation with the Catholic superstition, see these two collections...

Communists and Religion -- Part 15 (http://www.redstar2000papers.com/theory.php?subaction=showfull&id=1131370926&archive=&cnshow=headlines&start_from=&ucat=&)

Castro Pays Homage to a Dead Pope (http://www.redstar2000papers.com/theory.php?subaction=showfull&id=1114436908&archive=&cnshow=headlines&start_from=&ucat=&)

The Cubans did close down some of the churches during the period of "revolutionary enthusiasm"...but they didn't demolish any of them.

They should have torn them all down!

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/223.gif

[ComradeOm]

A "god" that "doesn't intervene" in our universe is not very useful.
Even worse then that, a god that wouldn't intervene would be a bastard.