Chavez Kicks Missionaries Out Of Venezuela

[Red Flag]

BARRANCO YOPAL, Venezuela - Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez ordered a U.S.-based Christian missionary group working with indigenous tribes to leave the country Wednesday, accusing the organization of "imperialist infiltration" and links to theCIA.

Chavez said missionaries of the New Tribes Mission, based in Sanford, Fla., were no longer welcome during a ceremony in a remote Indian village where he presented property titles to several indigenous groups.

"The New Tribes are leaving Venezuela. This is an irreversible decision that I have made," Chavez said. "We don't want the New Tribes here. Enough colonialism!"

He accused the missionaries of building luxurious camps next to poor Indian villages and circumventing Venezuelan customs authorities as they freely flew in and out on private planes.

The group is involved in "true imperialist infiltration, the CIA, they take away sensitive, strategic information," Chavez said, without elaborating. "And on top of that, exploiting the Indians."

"We don't want to abuse them, we're simply going to give them a period of time (to) pack up their things because they are leaving," Chavez said to applause from hundreds of Indians who sat under tents in Barranco Yopal, a remote village on Venezuela's southern plains.

Nita Zelenak, a New Tribes representative reached by phone, declined to comment on Venezuela's decision or say how many missionaries are working in the country.

The New Tribes Mission specializes in evangelism among indigenous groups in the world's remotest places. The organization says it has 3,200 workers and operations in 17 nations across Latin America, Southeast Asia and West Africa.

During the ceremony, Chavez granted 15 property titles for more than 1.65 million acres to the Cuiba, Yuaruro, Warao and Karina tribes. The documents recognize collective ownership of ancestral lands by communities with some 3,000 people.

"Previously, the indigenous people of Venezuela were removed from our lands. This is historic. It is a joyful day," said Librado Moraleda, a 52-year-old Warao from a remote village in the Orinoco River Delta.

Moraleda received a land title and government pledges of $27,000 to build homes and plant cassava and plantains.

Chavez says he is leading a "revolution" for the poor and that defending the rights of Venezuelan's 300,000 indigenous people is a priority.

But poverty remains severe in many Indian communities, and some said they need more help beyond land titles.

"We want the government to help us with hunger, with credit," said Yuaruro Indian Pedro Mendez, 26. He said his community had asked for an electrical generator and loans to help plant more crops.

[Master Che]

Hurray, as a half Tupinambian i wish someone would of done this for my ancestors. I hope Brazil will go through what Venezuela is going through soon.

[TC]

:wub: chavez :-)

[RedStarOverChina]

yoo-hoo~
Now the god-damned christians get a taste of their own medicine :)

I LIKE CHAVEZ!

[Gura]

Good. Too bad he can't get Robertson extradited there.

[bolshevik butcher]

ha ha, when i read the title Ii thought it was going ot be something bad. I'm happy to see that it wasnt.

[PRC-UTE]

:lol:

gotta love Chavez!

[Ownthink]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2005, 11:21 AM
yoo-hoo~
Now the god-damned christians get a taste of their own medicine :)

I LIKE CHAVEZ!
He is a Christian.

[pandora]

To understand this properly, the largest group of missionaries in Central and Latin America right now, U.S. backed are the evangelicals. They are not only pushing their religion, but also consumerism, wearing U.S. style clothing, getting rid of mother goddess religions, and the cult of the mother through Mary in the Catholic Church, etc.

They spray paint on buildings (usually friendly businesses) Jesus es Senor en 24 foot letters, the main idea that the old god of the Jews, and the cult of Mary in the Catholic church are not the lord only their version of wrathful Jesus. They heighten of course the story of the Apocolypse and the idea of Rapture, leaving everyone else behind.

One of their main devices is radio such as Radio Verdad in the pro-U.S. business quarter of San Salvador, El Salvador, a country where the U.S. dollar has replaced the local currency, and all government workers have been moved down to the status of temporary this last summer despite riots and hunger strikes.

To say nothing of the death squads...

While I was there I was taken into the Evangelical compound where there were many White U.S. Southerners helping with missionary operations, no doubt somehow related to the current U.S. regime of W.

[Correa]

The local right wing talk show host here in Las Vegas said that "Hugo Chavez tossed them out of the country for no reason." He went on talking about how he was an American hating dictator plotting the demise of the American Capitalist system. Anyways I called him and exposed his lies by using this post. I was quite successfull as he responded "So what's your point?" Hahaha! I love exposing right wing talk show host! Sometimes they hang up before I can expose their lies, but fun none the less!

[Xvall]

Owned.

[pandora]

Native people the world over are finally getting a good laugh on those bastards, hey before you leave, have a blanket!

[Red Flag]

While this is a great move, don't get TOO excited. Chavez IS very much a christian, and is known to envoke Jesus' name more than smme preists do.

[metalero]

Originally posted by Red [email protected] 14 2005, 05:17 AM
While this is a great move, don't get TOO excited. Chavez IS very much a christian, and is known to envoke Jesus' name more than smme preists do.
if u know, a great majority of poor in latinamerica are devoted catholics, and since chavez has a catholic background, I think he uses that expression to get poor's attention and to show that socialism/communism is not about jailing or intolerating religious people, but rather as to show them that many religious thoughts deal about ending exploitation and sufferage.

Anyway, I don't think spiritual leanings are a big deal, as long as they don't favour human exploitation.

[Red Flag]

They're a huge deal, and you can't liberate the body until they liberate their mind.

A scientific understanding of material reality is necessary if you're serious about changing it, and "god" has no part in that.

[somebodywhowantedtoleaveandnotcomeback]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2005, 09:49 PM
The local right wing talk show host here in Las Vegas said that "Hugo Chavez tossed them out of the country for no reason." He went on talking about how he was an American hating dictator plotting the demise of the American Capitalist system. Anyways I called him and exposed his lies by using this post. I was quite successfull as he responded "So what's your point?" Hahaha! I love exposing right wing talk show host! Sometimes they hang up before I can expose their lies, but fun none the less!
:lol: You should tape-record your phonecalls and place them online

[metalero]

Originally posted by Red [email protected] 16 2005, 09:36 AM
They're a huge deal, and you can't liberate the body until they liberate their mind.

A scientific understanding of material reality is necessary if you're serious about changing it, and "god" has no part in that.
I totally agree, but I was saying that the fact that Chavez metions "Jesus" has nothing to do about expanding any religious ideology or keeping the masses mentally enslaved to religion, but rather as a method of approaching them. If you recall the "many" times Chavez has talked about it, he doesn't speak as a prophet or a priest, but rather as someone who emphasizes on humanist values from christianity.

[Social Greenman]

Well, I am of opinion that the capitalist class know how to exploit the spiritual aspect of people. When I was much younger and church goer the people who led the congregations were just ordinary working people like those in the congregation. However, over the years, that changed drastically and the leaders became more authoritive and no longer ordinary workers. Instead they are professionals who are both trianed in scripture and capitalist politics. At one time it was about treating people in the same way you wanted them to treat you. Now, well, just listen to a televangelist and you will see what I mean. Pat Robertson, Jack Van Impe, Ken Copeland, et al, are just in for monetary gain and popularity and they know the Bible can be interpreted in any way, shape or form.

Good for Chavez for kicking these money hungry jerks out of the country. Yes they were there to make sure that they were to be future wage slaves and consumers.

John

[KC]

I totally agree, but I was saying that the fact that Chavez metions "Jesus" has nothing to do about expanding any religious ideology or keeping the masses mentally enslaved to religion, but rather as a method of approaching them. If you recall the "many" times Chavez has talked about it, he doesn't speak as a prophet or a priest, but rather as someone who emphasizes on humanist values from christianity.

If the masses were addicted to opium, and Chavez gave them opium and told them to listen to him, you're justifying that?

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2005, 03:11 PM

I totally agree, but I was saying that the fact that Chavez metions "Jesus" has nothing to do about expanding any religious ideology or keeping the masses mentally enslaved to religion, but rather as a method of approaching them. If you recall the "many" times Chavez has talked about it, he doesn't speak as a prophet or a priest, but rather as someone who emphasizes on humanist values from christianity.

If the masses were addicted to opium, and Chavez gave them opium and told them to listen to him, you're justifying that?
I think if anything, it's more akin to methadone treatment. The course of development Chavez is helping lead Venezuala along (under the direction of the working class) will, in the longer term, create the conditions that will erode and do away with religion.

[Social Greenman]

I think if anything, it's more akin to methadone treatment. The course of development Chavez is helping lead Venezuala along (under the direction of the working class) will, in the longer term, create the conditions that will erode and do away with religion.

I doubt it!

[CubaSocialista]

I<3 Hugo Chavez&#33;
Later Fundies&#33;

[CubaSocialista]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2005, 09:49 PM
The local right wing talk show host here in Las Vegas said that "Hugo Chavez tossed them out of the country for no reason." He went on talking about how he was an American hating dictator plotting the demise of the American Capitalist system. Anyways I called him and exposed his lies by using this post. I was quite successfull as he responded "So what&#39;s your point?" Hahaha&#33; I love exposing right wing talk show host&#33; Sometimes they hang up before I can expose their lies, but fun none the less&#33;
haha, I hate those types. No understanding of history. They&#39;ve never seen the third world. They&#39;ve never seen the face of a starving child. They HAVE seen the face of the laughing, well fed plutocrat, smoking a cigar smugly.

And that&#39;s who they want to relate to&#33;

[metalero]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2005, 03:11 PM

I totally agree, but I was saying that the fact that Chavez metions "Jesus" has nothing to do about expanding any religious ideology or keeping the masses mentally enslaved to religion, but rather as a method of approaching them. If you recall the "many" times Chavez has talked about it, he doesn&#39;t speak as a prophet or a priest, but rather as someone who emphasizes on humanist values from christianity.

If the masses were addicted to opium, and Chavez gave them opium and told them to listen to him, you&#39;re justifying that?
are you saying Chavez gives opium to the masses when he rarely mentions Jesus?
if some progressive president, who leads a social and economical transformation process in a third world country full of poverty and mentally enslaved masses, and refers to some chrisitian expression to reach the masses...does it makes him an anti-communist or flaws his revolutionary struggle against exploitation?
I will never justified doctrines that enslave and alienate the masses, but I think you are missing my point. Chavez resorted to such expressions early in his presidency, but he&#39;s been gradually using scientifical and marxist expressions to educate the masses whose attention he already has.
Red flag brought a good thread about Chavez kicking out missionaires who tried to alienate the natives, who have been historically excluded,exploited and subdued by force and by religion; I fully support that. But then he said that we should be careful with Chavez for he&#39;s mentioned christian expressions when adressing the masses... and this is where I say that we shoudn&#39;t make a big deal about his spiritual leanings (and why he&#39;s used such expressions) but rather watch for his actions, and I think Chavez is going in the right way.

[Tekun]

Chavez and Venezuela are slowly but surely succeeding

Good thing those missionaries left, imposing their religion and whatnot....
It kinda reminds me of the conquest by the Spanish of Central and South America

Missionaries are giving the poor natives a bible, when what they need is food/work/ and education
Typical of conservative christians :angry:

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

are you saying Chavez gives opium to the masses when he rarely mentions Jesus?

Rarely???

The guy talks about Christ more than a priest&#33;

Listen to his speech in NY (in English): here (http://www.freepeoplesmovement.org/chavez.mp3)

[Social Greenman]

He spoke and the people understood because he was able to relate to them on a religious level which is something many on this board do not understand. People are and will continue to be religious, which exists in many forms, despite any effort to suppress them. Marx was right on many things but religion was not one of them. Yes, it is like an opiate but it also gives them the endurance to go through difficult times and they feel the stronger for it. Marxist who are vehemetly opposed to religion has caused many a religious person to seek refuge with the capitalist. Because of the opposition we have the evangelicals in the U.S. whose purpose is to use propaganda with scripture and to make money off of whoever is willing to give it to them.

John

[metalero]

Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2005, 10:50 AM

are you saying Chavez gives opium to the masses when he rarely mentions Jesus?

Rarely???

The guy talks about Christ more than a priest&#33;

Listen to his speech in NY (in English): here (http://www.freepeoplesmovement.org/chavez.mp3)
have you seen all of Chavez speeches in Venezuela? Every week he address twice or three times the public through Cadena (simultaneous radio and tv coverage). So it is rare that he mentions those expression proportionally speaking.
Remember, the audience at new york were made highly by solidarity networks including community churches.
by the way:

"...the political basis of my government is made up of non-religious, marxists and christians, and we respect the christian ideology when it understands the word of christ who expelled the merchants from the temple"

Salvador Allende address to the youth at the University of Guadalajara
México, december 2, 1972
http://www.abacq.net/imagineria/discur5.htm (in spanish)

"..We must conclude by saying, that the ideas of Bolivar and Marti will lead us to end of unjustice, the end of exploitation...Cuba has chosen that path long ago, and we call it straight forward: socialism; But if you tell me that you call it bolivarism, I&#39;d say I agree; or Martianism I&#39;d say I totally agree...and if you tell me you call it Christianism, I´d also say I agree"
Fidel Castro, refering to the Bolivarian revolution.

Now, Don&#39;t come to tell me we should we careful with these guys forsaying that...

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Allende? You know what happened in Chile right?

Fidel is hardly promoting religion, though he does pander to the religious occassionally, and I do believe we can and should be critical of this.


Marxist who are vehemetly opposed to religion has caused many a religious person to seek refuge with the capitalist.

You can&#39;t be a Marxist and not vehemetly oppose religion. It doesn&#39;t matter if 99% of the population is religious, you can&#39;t change the world by capitulating to the prevailing (bourgeois) standards.

[KC]

He spoke and the people understood because he was able to relate to them on a religious level which is something many on this board do not understand.

Many people on this board do understand. What you fail to realize is that we both understand religion and abhor it.


People are and will continue to be religious, which exists in many forms, despite any effort to suppress them.

Why would you think that? You realize the number of atheists in the world is going up, fast, right?


Marx was right on many things but religion was not one of them.

You can&#39;t be a marxist and believe that.


Yes, it is like an opiate but it also gives them the endurance to go through difficult times and they feel the stronger for it.

That&#39;s not religion that does that. That&#39;s human will. They don&#39;t need religion to gain strength. The strength is already within them. That is why religion is such a dangerous tool.


Marxist who are vehemetly opposed to religion


All marxists...


has caused many a religious person to seek refuge with the capitalist.

Really? Where&#39;d this come from, anyways? I haven&#39;t heard of anyone running from a "socialist" state for their religion.


Because of the opposition we have the evangelicals in the U.S. whose purpose is to use propaganda with scripture and to make money off of whoever is willing to give it to them.

How&#39;s this relevant?

[Social Greenman]

QUOTE
He spoke and the people understood because he was able to relate to them on a religious level which is something many on this board do not understand.


Many people on this board do understand. What you fail to realize is that we both understand religion and abhor it.

>You and other may obhor it but the Marxist of the 21st century will have to be more tolerent of religious people. I don&#39;t really think that most of you know how to relate to religious people like Chavez did in his speech.<

QUOTE
People are and will continue to be religious, which exists in many forms, despite any effort to suppress them.


Why would you think that? You realize the number of atheists in the world is going up, fast, right?

>And so is paganism and non Xian religions. I still see many a church parking lots overflow on Sunday. This happens coast-to-coast. Have you ever noticed?<

QUOTE
Marx was right on many things but religion was not one of them.


You can&#39;t be a marxist and believe that.

>That is your own opinion. When did Marx become god-like and his writings infallable?<

QUOTE
Yes, it is like an opiate but it also gives them the endurance to go through difficult times and they feel the stronger for it.


That&#39;s not religion that does that. That&#39;s human will. They don&#39;t need religion to gain strength. The strength is already within them. That is why religion is such a dangerous tool.

>But many a religious worker would not agree with you no matter what logical argument you can give. They will continue to believe in a higher power(s) that gives them strength. If religion is a tool then why not use it wisely?<

QUOTE
Marxist who are vehemetly opposed to religion


All marxists...

>Again, your opinion.<

QUOTE
has caused many a religious person to seek refuge with the capitalist.


Really? Where&#39;d this come from, anyways? I haven&#39;t heard of anyone running from a "socialist" state for their religion.

Your kidding, right?
http://www.ukrweekly.com/Archive/1990/529008.shtml
http://uscis.gov/graphics/services/asylum/...RUSUKR98001.pdf (http://uscis.gov/graphics/services/asylum/ric/IP_pdfs/IPRUSUKR98001.pdf)

QUOTE
Because of the opposition we have the evangelicals in the U.S. whose purpose is to use propaganda with scripture and to make money off of whoever is willing to give it to them.


How&#39;s this relevant?

>It is relevent since they know how to pull heart strings causing workers to be pro-capitalist while instilling fear into the listener that all those who have socialist beliefs are connected in some way with Satan and the coming Anti-Christ. <

John

[MexAmLeft]

marxism is a religion

[Ownthink]

Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2005, 07:29 PM
marxism is a religion
No, really, Marxism as a Religion? That&#39;s like calling Atheism a religion. No, Marxism is more of an idealogy.

[Xvall]

Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2005, 11:29 PM
marxism is a religion
MexAmLeft is a dumbass.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2005, 11:29 PM
marxism is a religion
MexAmLeft is a spamming dumbass - not content to make one-line posts, he does so without elaborating on his preposterous statement&#33;

[metalero]

Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2005, 11:56 AM
Allende? You know what happened in Chile right?

Fidel is hardly promoting religion, though he does pander to the religious occassionally, and I do believe we can and should be critical of this.


Of course I know,comrade. Allende didn&#39;t take enough measures to allow the social movement organized into armed resistance against fascism; thus the"chilean way to socialism" was brutally smashed. What does mentioning tolerance for an individual spiritual leaning has to do with this?

In a revolutionary process (from capitalism to socialism) man emancipates himself politically from religion by banishing it from the sphere of public law to that of private law. Like all ideas, religious ideas have their origin in the real world. Moreover, they are an expression of the contradictions of class society. We can&#39;t ask for destruction or abolition of religion at this stage since human emancipation from religion is only possible in a society free from contradiction.

Again my point, I don&#39;t see why when a revolutionary leader mentions something about religion, we become afraid like some kind of doctrinaires ignoring the historical conditions and the way class struggles develop in each society (ever heard of theology of liberation?). Chavez kicked out some missionaries that historically alienated the exploited in latinameirca, and we fuck him for saying "christ" in some speech...for GOD&#39;s sake ;) &#33;

[MexAmLeft]

wow some sensitive *****es up here, the reason i compare it to a religion is some of u guys follow everything Karl Marx wrote to a tee and refuse to go against anything he described in the manifesto and refuse to compromise or debate.That holds many similarities to a bible thumper if u ask me.Why cant u say Marx was wrong about some things?Dont get me wrong the man was the premier philosopher in socialist thinking but i dont agree with everything he wrote so i cant be a communist according to many i have talked to.Fuck that

[BuyOurEverything]

You and other may obhor it but the Marxist of the 21st century will have to be more tolerent of religious people. I don&#39;t really think that most of you know how to relate to religious people like Chavez did in his speech

Right, and maybe we should be softer and more understanding of worker exploitation so we can get the capitalists onside. Seriously, it&#39;s not a revolution if there&#39;s no change in ideas. If we just agreed with every ruling ideology there is, we could have a revolution tomorow, but what&#39;s the point?


And so is paganism and non Xian religions. I still see many a church parking lots overflow on Sunday. This happens coast-to-coast. Have you ever noticed?

So? The overall number of religious people is going down. Yes, among those that are still religious, there is a trend towards new age and pagan cults, but who cares? The rapid divison of religious beliefs only hastens the aproach of universal atheism.


That is your own opinion. When did Marx become god-like and his writings infallable

It has nothing to do with every thing Marx saying being right, he was wrong about several things. However, recognizing power structures, methods of exploitation, and a materialistic look at history and society are integral parts of Marxism, that you can&#39;t just leave out. That would be like saying I&#39;m a Marxist but I&#39;ll fight for my country.

[BuyOurEverything]

wow some sensitive *****es up here, the reason i compare it to a religion is some of u guys follow everything Karl Marx wrote to a tee and refuse to go against anything he described in the manifesto and refuse to compromise or debate

That describes the minority of people here, but is nonetheless irrelevant. Simply because some people choose to interperet Marx&#39;s writing that way, it doesn&#39;t by any means follow that the entire school of Marxist thought is &#39;a religion&#39;. You clearly said so simply to garner a response.

[Guerrilla22]

Just when you think you can&#39;t love this man anymore so...