I've stopped lurking.... [Archive]

Cynical Realist

7th October 2005, 21:27

Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2005, 07:21 PM
Welcome comrade, nice to have you here.

a former fundamentalist christian/republican

This is quite a drastic shift you have taken, do you mind me asking what made you change?
As far as Christianity is concerned, I had always had my doubts but was too scared to confront them so I would study apologetics and theology harder to try and convince myself that Christianity was true. A few years ago I just decided that I couldn't live fake anymore and I had to find out what was true. I started looking into the validity of christianity and the claims about Jesus and found things that really blew my mind. I think the thing that really put me over the edge and broke my brainwashing was the evidence (or lack thereof) that Jesus ever existed.
My change as far as going from a republican to a leftist. Again I just did a lot of studying and broke down a lot of lies and propaganda that I bought into. I just couldn't agree with any of the republican/conservatve positions and found them to be close minded, arrogant and somewhat evil people (sorry for the generalization) out for their own good and gain and not for that of all people. I think me being a leftist is really about kindness and compassion and love for others, especially those who are suffering injustice and hardship. It's funny that I had to break away from christianity to become a kind and compassionate and happy person. Things that you're supposed to be as a christian but was far from.
I guess if I had to label myself I would consider myself a libertarian socialist.

Orthodox Marxist

7th October 2005, 21:43

welcome comrade a drastic change indeed Im proud of you for your dedication to improving yourself :D

although I am an athiest I thought I would point this out Roman historical records show there really was a jesus and he really was crucified a fact I never denied I however believe he was a regular man like you and me

Amusing Scrotum

7th October 2005, 21:47

As far as Christianity is concerned, I had always had my doubts but was too scared to confront them so I would study apologetics and theology harder to try and convince myself that Christianity was true. A few years ago I just decided that I couldn't live fake anymore and I had to find out what was true. I started looking into the validity of christianity and the claims about Jesus and found things that really blew my mind. I think the thing that really put me over the edge and broke my brainwashing was the evidence (or lack thereof) that Jesus ever existed.

Are you know completely atheist or somewhat agnostic?

Because, while I have never been Religious. Personally I would imagine it would be very hard for someone to break completely with everything they have ever believed in. It takes great courage, something you should be applauded for.

My change as far as going from a republican to a leftist. Again I just did a lot of studying and broke down a lot of lies and propaganda that I bought into. I just couldn't agree with any of the republican/conservatve positions and found them to be close minded, arrogant and somewhat evil people (sorry for the generalization) out for their own good and gain and not for that of all people. I think me being a leftist is really about kindness and compassion and love for others, especially those who are suffering injustice and hardship. It's funny that I had to break away from christianity to become a kind and compassionate and happy person. Things that you're supposed to be as a christian but was far from.

I am in constant disbelief at how right wing and downright intolerant some Christians are. It does seem to contradict everything Christianity is supposed to stand for.
Though Stalin contradicted everything Communism stood for, but he was a Christian first. So I suppose theres something in that. ;)

Also I'm glad you are more happy as a person know. I personally found, after discovering far left politics, that the world makes a lot more sense and you find happiness by seeing the problems in the world and knowing theres a solution. That you can fight for. It removes some of the feelings of helplessness, that you have with liberal social values and basic humanism.

I guess if I had to label myself I would consider myself a libertarian socialist.

Don't bother labelling yourself, along as your not an Authoritarian Socialist, you're A-Ok in my book.

Cynical Realist

7th October 2005, 22:32

Thanks everybody for the very kind welcome.

Are you know completely atheist or somewhat agnostic?

It's only been a little over a year since I've pretty solidly broken free from Christianity. I don't know how you can say there is or isn't a god of some type so I guess that would put me in the agnostic camp. I'm sure that will bring out some people who will call me weak for not completely going over to the atheist side but I really don't know how you can say for certain that there is or isn't a god. As far as being hard to de-convert it has been very difficult. I'm married and have four kids and I just told my two oldest last night about what I believe and they were very upset. It was quite a strain on my marriage also. A long story but it has been very difficult.

although I am an athiest I thought I would point this out Roman historical records show there really was a jesus and he really was crucified a fact I never denied I however believe he was a regular man like you and me

It's a myth. There are no records concerning Jesus. None from his contemporaries. If you have a piece of evidence that I don't know about I'd be happy to check it out.

Orthodox Marxist

7th October 2005, 22:40

Not on hand one of my proffessors had a book on it

Amusing Scrotum

7th October 2005, 23:01

It's only been a little over a year since I've pretty solidly broken free from Christianity. I don't know how you can say there is or isn't a god of some type so I guess that would put me in the agnostic camp. I'm sure that will bring out some people who will call me weak for not completely going over to the atheist side but I really don't know how you can say for certain that there is or isn't a god. As far as being hard to de-convert it has been very difficult. I'm married and have four kids and I just told my two oldest last night about what I believe and they were very upset. It was quite a strain on my marriage also. A long story but it has been very difficult.

Don't worry what other people will think, especially those on an internet forum.

Also with regards you still holding some belief, however strained, in God. I would suggest you might want to check out "Liberation Theology", where the priests are Marxist and the Marxists are Christians. I've been meaning to take a look at it for sometime, just to see what it was like. Apparently the Sandinistas' were influenced by it.

OleMarxco

8th October 2005, 11:43

Is that so? Fa.... Argh, I must stop saying that joke all over again ;)
Anyways. Welcome, to the -REAL- light side of the "Force".
So, you've decided to take this road...OF SUB-TER-FUGE! Well, not really. But - you've come a long way, and I'm not to judge you since you've already nudged towards something good, but renember; Merely 'Socialists' have met kind of difficulties in're past. We are fightin'an systom, YAAAH! And other's of us are even more stick-in're mud, against it with WEAPONS and/or WIT. Some even against a STATE at all.. Communists and Anarchists..... Defying the social-build up of properity and money, among other things.

But that, my friend, is fer another time. When you're truly ready to embrace....heheheheh...the powerful corner of "the Force" :hammer:

bunk

8th October 2005, 14:59

Welcome to the forums for sure!

Cynical Realist

8th October 2005, 15:01

Don't worry what other people will think, especially those on an internet forum.

I tend not to care what people think. Well, for the most part. There are people that I love and respect whose opinion matter to me but I try to be an individual. If I cared what people think I wouldn't have made any changes in my life. Although in saying that I am very open to learning new ideas.

Also with regards you still holding some belief, however strained, in God. I would suggest you might want to check out "Liberation Theology"

I don't think I'm going to be seeking out any kind of information on God right now. Especially the "christian" god. I think there could be a God but I have no idea how to go about finding "it". I'm pretty certain though that the christian concept of god is about as valid as the Greek gods.

Black Dagger

8th October 2005, 15:22

Welcome compañero! :)

I'm sure that will bring out some people who will call me weak for not completely going over to the atheist side but I really don't know how you can say for certain that there is or isn't a god.

Be sure to check out the religion sub-forum (and its archives) in the opposing ideologies section, there's a lot of good discussions of and arguments against religious superstition, and also concerning atheism vs. agnosticism.

Can i recommend, Agnosticism? March 24, 2005 by RedStar2000 (http://redstar2000papers.com/theory.php?subaction=showfull&id=1111678407&archive=&cnshow=headlines&start_from=&ucat=) , infidels.org library (http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/) (lot's of great essays and debates on atheism/agnosticism, critiques of christian and religous philosophy and history), and also the Richard Carrier (http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/) section of the site- carrier has some good historical critiques of christian mythology- did the resurrection actually happen? etc.... hope i'm not going overboard here? :blush: But it's good stuff!

Also with regards you still holding some belief, however strained, in God. I would suggest you might want to check out "Liberation Theology", where the priests are Marxist and the Marxists are Christians. I've been meaning to take a look at it for sometime, just to see what it was like. Apparently the Sandinistas' were influenced by it.

Dude... you're not supposed to suggest people actually join 'religious' rackets :lol:

Cynical Realist

8th October 2005, 15:30

Originally posted by Black [email protected] 8 2005, 03:03 PM
Be sure to check out the religion sub-forum (and its archives) in the opposing ideologies section, there's a lot of good discussions of and arguments against religious superstition, and also concerning atheism vs. agnosticism.

Can i recommend, Agnosticism? March 24, 2005 by RedStar2000 (http://redstar2000papers.com/theory.php?subaction=showfull&id=1111678407&archive=&cnshow=headlines&start_from=&ucat=&), infidels.org library (lot's of great essays and debates on atheism/agnosticism, critiques of christian and religous philosophy and history ) (http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/), and also the Richard Carrier (http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/) section of the site- carrier has some good historical critiques of christian mythology- did the resurrection actually happen? etc.... hope i'm not going overboard here? :blush: But it's good stuff!

Thanks! Not going overboard at all. I read a lot of articles at infidels.org and I'll check out the other links. I'm always trying to find new information so thanks.

*Edit*

I had actually read the redstar2000papers.com argument yesterday. I think it's a really weak argument against agnosticism. Agnosticism is not cowardice or fence-sitting at all. Well I guess it could be for some people but as far as I'm concerned there is no way to "prove" that there is a "god" or not. I'm not hedging my bets on the god issue. Bottom line is there is no definite evidence on either side. It doesn't mean I don't care about the issue, it simply means I don't know. Of course I could be totally wrong :unsure:

Black Dagger

8th October 2005, 15:53

I think it's a really weak argument against agnosticism. Agnosticism is not cowardice or fence-sitting at all.

Really? Well you'll find an argument one-day that'll settle this issue for, i can assure you ;) Personally, i've found that a really good base-argument to get people that i know re-thinking their 'beliefs' :P

Of course I could be totally wrong

Could be :)

There's another good site that i wanted to link you but i can't seem to find it at the moment...

The Grey Blur

8th October 2005, 16:57

The anti-religion on this website does my head in, we aren't supposed to care what creed/class/religion someone is, so long as they're united behind socialism but people have stupid religous-bashing sigs, constantly rave about atheism (some of you sound like hellfire&brimstone priests except reversed "repent your religion are you will not be saved!). I mean, I don't give a fuck if someone believes in God/religion so long as they're socialist, what harm does it do?

Black Dagger

8th October 2005, 17:08

So you're saying... religious belief, and religious adherents themselves, do no 'harm' to society? Seriously? Religious belief has a neutral (to-positive?) effect on society/humanity?

Sir Aunty Christ

8th October 2005, 18:15

Originally posted by Rage Against The [email protected] 8 2005, 05:38 PM
I mean, I don't give a fuck if someone believes in God/religion so long as they're socialist, what harm does it do?
I don't give a fuck either but it's the hierarchical, authoritarian nature of organised religion that is contradictory to leftist politics, and the belief in the supernatural which is the opposit of reason and materialism.

Orthodox Marxist

9th October 2005, 11:52

Religion is the opium of the masses

enigma2517

9th October 2005, 14:30

Agnosticism is not cowardice or fence-sitting at all. Well I guess it could be for some people but as far as I'm concerned there is no way to "prove" that there is a "god" or not.

Depends.

If you don't denounce the reactionary ills of organized religion its almost as bad as joining in with them.

Its not "wrong" to consider the existance of a "god" or another supreme being/force. It might be a reasonable explanation for existance, the universe, etc.

However! There is no evidence that points to the existance of a god right now. That alone is enough.

See, you can't prove that there "is no god". Prove that there aren't fairies first. Of course, you know they don't exist, but how do you prove that?

You can't, theres only been like one or two things EVER that have been proved in the negative. Thats just not how it works. If you believe in something you need evidence for your viewpoint. The proof rests on the positive conjuncture.

Straddling the fence is dangerous, because of the extremely reactionary nature of religion and your own rejection of materialist principles, a necessity for any real communist.

Religion or rationality, take your pick.

Amusing Scrotum

9th October 2005, 16:30

Dude... you're not supposed to suggest people actually join 'religious' rackets

I can't help it, its the preacher in me. :lol:

Seriously though, there is no problem as far as I can see, in a Christian becoming a revolutionary Socialist. And from what I know, Liberation Theology harnesses both Marxism and Christianity and uses them to revolutionise society. Which makes it a slightly different "Religious racket" to Catholicism or Judaism.

Black Dagger

9th October 2005, 17:41

I can't help it, its the preacher in me

There's a preacher in you? :o I'd see redstar about that, he'll know how to 'exorcise' that little bugger from you :P

Unfortunately, 'slightly better' is still not (nor will it ever be) enough! Religious superstition directly contradicts philosophical materialism/communism, it's logically impossible to reconcile the two. Not to mention the fact that religious superstitions are in the main authoritarian, hierarchical, socially reactionary and so forth.

OleMarxco

9th October 2005, 18:05

It is possible, but you'd never get used to non-hierarchy with something as hierarchial as...belief in a higher power.

There's perhaps not a hinder for a Christian to become a 'revolutionary Socialist' - HOWEVER, there is hinders for Christianity to put a stopper for those plan's - Such as, goin' to Church-confession and getting greet with 'religious calls', and getting told that 'God thinks you should abandon your current "political path", and woops, they're against us, as an agent in our midst ;)

Think about it. The path IS rather short from Belief - TO OUTRIGHT ORGANIZED FUNDAMENTALISM. If they do truly believe.

Amusing Scrotum

9th October 2005, 18:46

There's a preacher in you?

I was joking with you.

I'd see redstar about that, he'll know how to 'exorcise' that little bugger from you

:lol:

Unfortunately, 'slightly better' is still not (nor will it ever be) enough! Religious superstition directly contradicts philosophical materialism/communism, it's logically impossible to reconcile the two. Not to mention the fact that religious superstitions are in the main authoritarian, hierarchical, socially reactionary and so forth.

No need to make such an issue of this. I merely suggested a variant of Socialism which included Religion, to a comrade who said he was at somewhat of a crossroads regarding his beliefs.

Also if I were given a choice between Liberation Theology inspired Sandinista Socialism and Atheism based Stalinism. I would choose the Sandinista way every time.

Plus, Cynical Realist never described himself as Communism, therefore this suggests he may not look at the world in a Marxist materialist sense.

In short, stop being so bloody dogmatic.

The Grey Blur

9th October 2005, 18:52

Originally posted by Black [email protected] 8 2005, 04:49 PM
So you're saying... religious belief, and religious adherents themselves, do no 'harm' to society? Seriously? Religious belief has a neutral (to-positive?) effect on society/humanity?
No, I'm saying what I said in my original post it said all that needed to be said.

Black Dagger

9th October 2005, 18:58

No need to make such an issue of this. I merely suggested a variant of Socialism which included Religion, to a comrade who said he was at somewhat of a crossroads regarding his beliefs.

Except that he's not looking for a new religious belief, he's an agnostic/weak atheist. The cross-roads don't extend to him digging liberation theology, because he doesn't dig christianity!

I was joking with you.

I know!

Also if I were given a choice between Liberation Theology inspired Sandinista Socialism and Atheism based Stalinism. I would choose the Sandinista way every time.

But what does that have to do with this thread?

Plus, Cynical Realist never described himself as Communism, therefore this suggests he may not look at the world in a Marxist materialist sense.

Well, im not a marxist but my view i still informed by philosophical materialism. And as far as i can tell, Cynical Realist is a agnostic/weak atheist, so like he said, he really doesn't want to be hearing about 'new and improved' versions of christianity,

ie. "I don't think I'm going to be seeking out any kind of information on God right now. Especially the "christian" god. I think there could be a God but I have no idea how to go about finding "it". I'm pretty certain though that the christian concept of god is about as valid as the Greek gods. "

In short, stop being so bloody dogmatic.

How am i being dogmatic?

No, I'm saying what I said in my original post it said all that needed to be said.

Except your original post ended with a question, which i replied to, seeking clarification.

The Grey Blur

9th October 2005, 19:12

Originally posted by Sir Aunty [email protected] 8 2005, 05:56 PM

I don't give a fuck either but it's the hierarchical, authoritarian nature of organised religion that is contradictory to leftist politics, and the belief in the supernatural which is the opposit of reason and materialism.
:lol: All of you attack the churches with all this BS about control and stuff when, in all honesty religion hasn't had any major effect or power over the masses since the mid-80's (not counting the U.S.A - you guys still have plenty of that right-wing christian shit), when every thing from embezzlment to child-abuse came out.
You say the church is a brain-washing machine on young people when the truth is young people today don't give a fuck about religion and religion doesn't give a fuck about them - when was the last time a priest talked to you rationally trying to convert you?
The truth is you all wanted an easy target and you found one in the church.

BTW - Red Marxist Army - your post was shite! (also, this is an on-the-spur-of-the-moment type rant so half of it might be fudged up, but I still stand by it)

Black Dagger

9th October 2005, 19:28

All of you attack the churches with all this BS about control and stuff when, in all honesty religion hasn't had any major effect or power over the masses since the mid-80's... when every thing from embezzlment to child-abuse came out.

The profile/strength of religious institutions has hardly receded at all in the past 20 years, if anything there is a renewed push towards fundamentalism in all parts of the world, and in nearly every religious tradition (most obvious are militant islam and the huge christian right, but also the christian patriot and christian identity movement). Child abuse stories really do nothing to undermine people's 'faith' in 'the church', when one of the key-principles of christianity (and catholicism in particular) is obedience to authority- to god, or 'his earthly authority'- the clergy.

You say the church is a brain-washing machine on young people when the truth is young people today don't give a fuck about religion and religion doesn't give a fuck about them

A lot of young people go through a period of doubt in their belief, but most nevertheless maintain it, and a long with a basic belief in god, they also usually maintain the reactionary social prejudices that go along most religious superstitions, homophobia for example.

Religious institutions care a lot about the youth, why do you think there has been a growth in 'western' countries of 'trendy' churches/religious groups, that 'modernise' the message of 'christ' with rock music, singing and dancing etc? Religious institutions realise that they need to capture the minds of the youth, or their racket has no future.

- when was the last time a priest talked to you rationally trying to convert you?

It's usually not priests, but lay people, and a few months ago whilst travelling home from work (on a train i might add).

The truth is you all wanted an easy target and you found one in the church.

Of course it's an easy target, 'the church' has been a bastion for bigotry and prejudice for hundreds of years!

BTW - Red Marxist Army - your post was shite! (also, this is an on-the-spur-of-the-moment type rant so half of it might be fudged up, but I still stand by it)

Don't flame.

Amusing Scrotum

9th October 2005, 21:05

Except that he's not looking for a new religious belief, he's an agnostic/weak atheist. The cross-roads don't extend to him digging liberation theology, because he doesn't dig christianity!

You don't have to "dig" Christianity to be a Christian. The impression I got from Cynical Realist's posts, was that he was a somewhat detached Christian. That he was questioning whether Christianity itself was the problem, not just individual Christians. So I just suggested he look at Liberation Theology, as it might be something he would be interested in. He said he wasn't, therefore this issue is dead.

But what does that have to do with this thread?

I was just pointing out the possibility of Religious Socialists to become good revolutionaries, and that you do not need to have an orthodox Marxist view of the world, to be a revolutionary Communist.

Well, im not a marxist but my view i still informed by philosophical materialism. And as far as i can tell, Cynical Realist is a agnostic/weak atheist, so like he said, he really doesn't want to be hearing about 'new and improved' versions of christianity,

ie. "I don't think I'm going to be seeking out any kind of information on God right now. Especially the "christian" god. I think there could be a God but I have no idea how to go about finding "it". I'm pretty certain though that the christian concept of god is about as valid as the Greek gods. "

Yes I know he doesn't want to know about other versions of Christianity, but he only told me this after I suggested Liberation Theology. Therefore when I first suggested it, I was basically trying to suggest a version of Socialism to someone I thought it would appeal to. Nothing more.
And he only said that the stuff about the Christian God and Greek Gods, after i told him about Liberation Theology, so quoting him just shows I made a poor suggestion, not that I was trying to promote anything.
Plus he has not said what his philosophical viewpoint is, other than it not being Christian. Therefore many forms of Socialism may appeal to him, so we should suggest them and not just tell him about our particular Socialist sect. Lets let him find his own beliefs before we try to get him to adopt ours.

Non-Sectarian Bastard!

10th October 2005, 07:24

It's only been a little over a year since I've pretty solidly broken free from Christianity. I don't know how you can say there is or isn't a god of some type so I guess that would put me in the agnostic camp. I'm sure that will bring out some people who will call me weak for not completely going over to the atheist side but I really don't know how you can say for certain that there is or isn't a god. As far as being hard to de-convert it has been very difficult. I'm married and have four kids and I just told my two oldest last night about what I believe and they were very upset. It was quite a strain on my marriage also. A long story but it has been very difficult.

Yey!!!

Another one for the agnostic front. A bit the same as my position; as long as we don't have proof for or against, it's useless to make up definitions. Don't let yourself be bothered by the "bravery" of atheism.

I guess if I had to label myself I would consider myself a libertarian socialist.

Yey!!

Man, glad to have you on board.

Cynical Realist

10th October 2005, 16:02

Wow. I really didn't mean to stir shit up in here. I guess I should clarify my beliefs.
I am agnostic. I'm not a communist. I'm very libertarian and a socialist. I just gave myself three titles and I hate the whole idea of having to put myself in a box with what I believe. I've changed so much over the past few years and I have no idea where I'm going to wind up or I could just stay with the beliefs I have right now? I'm just looking for truth and don't really care where it leads me. I just want to be open enough to embrace new ideas and strong enough to hold onto what is true. I could really care less about other peoples beliefs. If someone wants to be a christian or a communist or whatever it's cool with me. Just as long as you don't harm me with your beliefs or try to push them on me in a rude way. I'm very cool with everybody and expect the same in return.
I think that pretty much sums it up.