Fascism

[Zapata]

ive heard a lot of thigns about fascism, but a lot of them sort of contradict each other, and so i don't really understand it. can someone help me out?

[Jimmie Higgins]

In my opinion, real fascism is a dictatorship where the right wing controlls the military as well as right-wing thugs on the street-level.

People say Bush is a fascist, but really fascism in the US would be like David Duke being president and head of the KKK at the same time. So you'd have the KKK having free reign on the streets and the cops would back them up (moreso than they do now that is). Jim-Crow is probably as close as the US has been to fascism. If the Southern Democrats control things and repress you politically, and KKK controlls the streets and controlls you there, then you can't really protest or organize your side.

In the US people can oppose Bush and don't have to fear Bush sending "pro-war thugs" to your house to beat you up and break your windows.

[bed_of_nails]

Fascism is a generally racist form of government where the economy and state are combined in an extremely free-market system. Basically anything goes as long as you support the nation in question.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2005, 04:13 AM
Fascism is a generally racist form of government where the economy and state are combined in an extremely free-market system. Basically anything goes as long as you support the nation in question.
Fascism has a capitalist economy, but capitalism is pretty flexable in how much government is involved with the economy. I think in Nazi germany there was some safty-nets and reforms of the economy. What sets fascism apart is that it is an extreeme reaction against labor and union movements where the business leaders are so afraid of loosing controll that they need a strong militarized state with street-level thugs to keep workers in line.

It's no accident that the freikorps were an army used to break strikes and they went on to form the base of the Nazis. It is also no accident that the main target of the nazis was the destruction of communists.

[Zingu]

Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2005, 04:13 AM
Fascism is a generally racist form of government where the economy and state are combined in an extremely free-market system. Basically anything goes as long as you support the nation in question.
Not true, Pinochet style Fascism and Franco style Fascism were not rascist, and only one of them were extreme free market. The other one tended to be more regulated.

[Someone]

Comrades,


'There are 14 defining caracteristics of fascism by the studies of DR. Lawrence Britt

1- Powerful and continuing nationalism

2- Disdain of the recognition of human rights

3- Identifying enemies or scapegoasts as a unifying cause

4- Supremacy of the military

5- Rampant sexism

6- Controlled mass media

7- Obsession with national security

8- Reigion and government are intertwined

9- Corporate power is protected

10- Labor power is suppressed

11- Disdain of intellectuals and the art

12- Obsession with crime and punishment

13- Rampant cronyisme and corruption

14- Fraudulant elections'

All those caracteristics are in the us governement :angry:


The fascism is the malaria of the world we must irradicate it !

Bye

:ph34r:

[ComradeOm]

Fascism is a highly regressive ideology that is barely even worth commenting on. Contrary to what some think about the US, fascism is almost non existent in any government in the world today. It is truly the ideology of idiots and fools. I won’t bother talking about fascist characteristics. Some have already mentioned religion, intolerance of labour unions etc etc but they’re just symptoms of the disease. I’ll focus on the ideology that drives these actions.

The real defining feature of fascism is the emphasis placed on power. This can be best seen distribution of wealth across society. Capitalists believe that the fruits of production should go to the capitalists who bankroll the operations while socialists believe that the workers should have control of what they produce. Fascists on the other hand believe that the wealth generated by the workers should go to those who they believe deserve it. Like socialists, fascists despise the capitalist “cash nexus” where individuals can amass huge fortunes. But fascists take the opposite view to both us and capitalists – they believe that a fortune is a reward for the strong, not a sign of strength in itself (as the capitalists do). In other words – there are the strong and the weak with the weak existing to feed the strong. All fascist movements have that believe in the “strong man” to lead the people – Il Duce, Der Fuhrer – and that society should obey these figures unquestionably. Old Adolf perverted the notion slightly by adding a racial context so that the “strong men” in the Reich were the Aryan people themselves with the “weaker” Slavic people destined to serve them.

Its this master and slave concept is the real driver behind all fascist actions. They worship strength and believe that they are naturally superior to all. This is why I contend that fascism is the one ideology that is inherently “evil”. It has more in common with ancient Rome than anything else and its brief dominance in the last century was a blip in the great scheme of things, a throwback to ages past. We’ll not see the likes again.

Like I said, hardly worth commenting on :cool:

[Lord Testicles]

Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2005, 09:46 AM
Comrades,


'There are 14 defining caracteristics of fascism by the studies of DR. Lawrence Britt

1- Powerful and continuing nationalism

2- Disdain of the recognition of human rights

3- Identifying enemies or scapegoasts as a unifying cause

4- Supremacy of the military

5- Rampant sexism

6- Controlled mass media

7- Obsession with national security

8- Reigion and government are intertwined

9- Corporate power is protected

10- Labor power is suppressed

11- Disdain of intellectuals and the art

12- Obsession with crime and punishment

13- Rampant cronyisme and corruption

14- Fraudulant elections'

All those caracteristics are in the us governement :angry:


The fascism is the malaria of the world we must irradicate it !

Bye

:ph34r:
Someone did you get that from here? (http://www.bushflash.com/gif/14a.gif)

[Luís Henrique]

Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2005, 02:16 AM
ive heard a lot of thigns about fascism, but a lot of them sort of contradict each other, and so i don't really understand it. can someone help me out?
Fascism and Dictatorship by Nikos Poulantzas (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0860917169/103-2323567-1478226?v=glance&n=283155) is a good take on it (plus it helps in understanding the differences between fascism and other authoritarian right wing tendencies).

Luís Henrique

[darth_revan]

A fascist hates other races. As i have seen,
They dont even know why they hate other races.
I am turk (i am a human, there is no turk, american, kurd, jew etc.) adnd when i ask them why they hate kurds, jews, greeks, armenians etc, They say that they are stupid... They dont know what they are advocating... I am a communist because of them. I have seen lots of fascists and none of them have real jobs. They arent working, just walking on the streets, thinking of stealing or pickpocketing... Maybe killing... When they fight, they fight together for meaningless things...
Oh, im going to swear... lets reply without these words...

[Someone]

comrades,

Yap comrade skinz you've busted me !

bye

[Orthodox Marxist]

Control of the Economy absolute subserviance to one person one will belief In superiority of the race etc

[Technique3055]

A while ago someone on this site said this, and it has defined fascism for me:

"Fascism is the middle class reaction to working class production. It is the ultimate counterrevolution."

That has held true for me for a good long while. Even fascists I talk to can't deny it.

[Orthodox Marxist]

according to someone I am arguing with on another forum the Nazis were "Left wing" :lol:

[colonelguppy]

Originally posted by [email protected] 6 2005, 11:13 PM
Fascism is a generally racist form of government where the economy and state are combined in an extremely free-market system. Basically anything goes as long as you support the nation in question.
i'll give you the racism point, but fascism has nothing to do with any kind of freedom. from the economy to personal lives and rights of the citizens, fascist governments are extremely restrictive. they are usually extremely aggressive in their foriegn policy, don't allow freedom of information and use nationalism and propaganda rather than freedom to inspire patriotism and support.

you seemed to have described some wierd form of libertarianism, which is the near opposite of fascism.

fascism is not the same thing as conservatism either, as it requires a huge national government to maintian. its actually on the left in the political spectrum

[RedJacobin]

Originally posted by [email protected] 8 2005, 04:25 AM
fascism is not the same thing as conservatism either, as it requires a huge national government to maintian.
Conservatives aren't against huge national governments, only the parts that soften the blows of capitalism (public education, universal healthcare, Social Security, and, as we saw in New Orleans, natural-disaster preparation).

They don't seem to have a problem with massive military spending, police force enlargement, and prison construction.

I'm not arguing that fascism and conservatism are the same thing here. Only pointing out that "conservativism = small govt" is a totally fraudulent idea.

[colonelguppy]

Originally posted by fats+Oct 8 2005, 12:11 AM--> (fats @ Oct 8 2005, 12:11 AM)
[email protected] 8 2005, 04:25 AM
fascism is not the same thing as conservatism either, as it requires a huge national government to maintian.
Conservatives aren't against huge national governments, only the parts that soften the blows of capitalism (public education, universal healthcare, Social Security, and, as we saw in New Orleans, natural-disaster preparation).

They don't seem to have a problem with massive military spending, police force enlargement, and prison construction.

I'm not arguing that fascism and conservatism are the same thing here. Only pointing out that "conservativism = small govt" is a totally fraudulent idea. [/b]
actually conservatism = classical liberalism = samll government

the "conservatives" incharge in the US right now aren't real conservatives at all. they're neo-cons, and borderline leftists (well, in my opinion anyways)

alot of people don't make the conservative neo-con distinction. when there is a HUGE difference

[RedJacobin]

Originally posted by [email protected] 8 2005, 05:17 AM
actually conservatism = classical liberalism = samll government

the "conservatives" incharge in the US right now aren't real conservatives at all. they're neo-cons, and borderline leftists (well, in my opinion anyways)

alot of people don't make the conservative neo-con distinction. when there is a HUGE difference
Yet support for military spending, more police, and more prisons isn't limited to the neocons.

[colonelguppy]

Originally posted by [email protected] 8 2005, 12:29 AM
Yet support for military spending, more police, and more prisons isn't limited to the neocons.
but it doesn't extend into conservative or classical liberal idealogy

sure, some of those things are necessary, but always in moderation

[RedJacobin]

Originally posted by [email protected] 8 2005, 05:32 AM
but it doesn't extend into conservative or classical liberal idealogy

sure, some of those things are necessary, but always in moderation
So Ronald Reagan was a leftist then? :)

[ComradeOm]

Originally posted by Red Marxist [email protected] 7 2005, 08:15 PM
according to someone I am arguing with on another forum the Nazis were "Left wing" :lol:
They were in favour of more state controls than capitalists, sure. But these controls were intended to ensure that the favoured got rich at the expense of the many "weak".

[More Fire for the People]

Fascism is the doctirine of a state representing the interest of corporations under the operations of absolutism. Most modern "fascists" are in reality semi-fascists as they operate under bourgeois democracy not absolutism.

[Zapata]

thanks. it seems to me that basically its an extreme capitalist economy coupled with a government with complete control of the military. any racism, sexism, or religious fervor are not necessarily functions of a fascist government; they can be however

[Hiero]

Fascism is a highly regressive ideology that is barely even worth commenting on. Contrary to what some think about the US, fascism is almost non existent in any government in the world today.

Fascism is worth comenting on as it is a phase of capitalism. So it can happen again.

The true forms of Fascism were the results of rapid growing ecnomies, like that in Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy. They were reforms aimed at creating and keeping a strong middle class, and keep that sector going.

We are bound to see Fascism again. Though maybe not in the US, as there are two ideas of why Fascism occurs. One is where the ruling class are losing power, so they create fascism to cease any disunity in the country, and tries to unite the whole people to a goal. While they do this they create gains in the economy and the middle class. The other idea is that when capitalism reaches a high stage and become extremly imperialist Fascism occus.

So Fascism didn't occur because the Nazi's hated the Jews and Gypsies. Rascism is just a apart of the superstructer, which is used to protect the economic base.

[RedJacobin]

Check out the excerpt from Dimitroff that I posted here:
http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=41323

[ComradeOm]

Originally posted by [email protected] 8 2005, 05:29 PM

Fascism is a highly regressive ideology that is barely even worth commenting on. Contrary to what some think about the US, fascism is almost non existent in any government in the world today.

Fascism is worth comenting on as it is a phase of capitalism. So it can happen again.

The true forms of Fascism were the results of rapid growing ecnomies, like that in Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy. They were reforms aimed at creating and keeping a strong middle class, and keep that sector going.

We are bound to see Fascism again. Though maybe not in the US, as there are two ideas of why Fascism occurs. One is where the ruling class are losing power, so they create fascism to cease any disunity in the country, and tries to unite the whole people to a goal. While they do this they create gains in the economy and the middle class. The other idea is that when capitalism reaches a high stage and become extremly imperialist Fascism occus.

So Fascism didn't occur because the Nazi's hated the Jews and Gypsies. Rascism is just a apart of the superstructer, which is used to protect the economic base.
Fascism is not merely a stage of capitalism, it is a perversion born of the same cyclic lows that Marx associated with capitalism. It cannot come about without these dire economic conditions where the capitalist class has been weakened enough. Indeed the bourgeoisie will never willing place a fascist regime in place unless the proletariat has grown strong enough to actively threaten them. These conditions are the only time that the average liberal will endorse such a reactionary and regressive movement. Don’t forget that liberalism is every bit as much a foe of fascism as socialism.

[Hiero]

It cannot come about without these dire economic conditions where the capitalist class has been weakened enough.

The capitalist class was growing in Germany, the ecnomy was good. Like that in Italy.

It was a political move to counter the proleteriat. The economy was growing.

[ComradeOm]

Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2005, 06:43 AM

It cannot come about without these dire economic conditions where the capitalist class has been weakened enough.

The capitalist class was growing in Germany, the ecnomy was good. Like that in Italy.

It was a political move to counter the proleteriat. The economy was growing.
The Nazis came to power in 1933, the worst year of the Great Depression. In Italy the economy was in poor shape when Mussolini entered government. Both found the economic conditions perfect for forwarding their ideology. The Great Depression shattered the illusion that capitalism could and would last forever. That was a massive psychological blow to the capitalists. The economy may have

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

Facism is a specific, peculiar response to crisis in capitalism.
Rather than looking for the fourteen characteristics, we should try to examine underlying class-dynamics, and the conditions that, historically, have lead to facism.
Facism is the mass-mobilization of the petit-bourgeois to "save" capitalism. That is, when the proletariat is not sufficiently developed, conscious, and organized to take the bull by the horns and build socialism, the middle-classes find their interests in the opposite direction.

Is there fascism in the United States right now?
I'd say the groundwork exists, but the "decisive moment" is not yet upon us.