Rape in the Superdome

[RedCeltic]

I wanted to subtitle this thread, “If a tree falls in the forest does it make a sound?” (It was too long) However it could have been more aptly named, “If a crime goes unreported was it really a crime?” Of course that’s a rhetorical question.

Officials have been saying that rumors of a mass scale of rape and sexual assault in the Superdome and the Convention Center were false due to only two cases of sexual assault being reported. However even under any “normal” conditions most cases of rape and sexual assault go unreported as most women tend to feel guilty and embarrassed about the affair.

The conditions at both the Superdome and the Convention Center however were ripe for such activity. Law enforcement was hardly present so reporting it at all was not an option for most. Also, given the fact that these people have more problems such as finding food and shelter and getting their lives together again, makes reporting such crimes somewhat low on their list of priorities.

The real question here to me really is… why are officials trying to whitewash the situation through the media? Perhaps this is an attempt at “damage control” and in saying that things aren’t quite as bad as first reported people will overlook the fact that in a time of one of the worst U.S. natural disasters the government (at all levels) dropped the ball.

[Eastside Revolt]

Actually it's not just rape.

I'll bet no one is keeping a tally of how many were murdered by the authorities.

[RedCeltic]

Yeah... that's another thing. I heard last week that reports of fire fights between the national guard and citizens were unfounded. However there is actual footage showing it!

Naturally, this is nothing to stop the Republican fact modification machine Comedian John Stewart of the "Daily Show" for example is constantly showing some republican who denies, or outright contradicts things they have said previously even though they were filmed saying it. In one segment Stewart remarked, "he must not realize C-Span has cameras."

These people aren't stupid however. They play on the fact that as a whole, us Americans have a very short attention span. Not being " Un-American" or whatever here... just plain facts. Ex Governer Rockerfeller of New York State for example used to use the tactic of raising taxes 2% after election and lowering taxes 1% just before the next election and running on a platform of low taxes... than doing it all over again.

These days, the GOP seems to have gotten itself in quite a few messy situations all at once and therefore needs to do a big snowjob just to make things seem somewhat ok...

[Severian]

Originally posted by [email protected] 6 2005, 12:26 PM
The conditions at both the Superdome and the Convention Center however were ripe for such activity.
It's difficult to be sure how exaggerated the initial claims of rape were. Unlike the claims of widespread murder, which were definitely BS.

That said, however....

Hardly. It's a lot easier to commit a crime when there are few people around; the Superdome and Convention Center were crowded.

In the best-confirmed case of attempted rape, apparently the would-be rapist was beaten by the crowd.


Law enforcement was hardly present so reporting it at all was not an option for most.

From the item I posted in the Newswire:
During six days when the Superdome was used as a shelter, the head of the New Orleans Police Department's sex crimes unit, Lt. David Benelli, said he and his officers lived inside the dome and ran down every rumor of rape or atrocity. In the end, they made two arrests for attempted sexual assault, and concluded that the other attacks had not happened.


The real question here to me really is… why are officials trying to whitewash the situation through the media? Perhaps this is an attempt at “damage control”

No. The claims of widespread crime were an attempt at "damage control", as well as a slander on the working people of New Orleans.

An attempt by officials, including Mayor Ray Nagin and the New Orleans Police Chief, to divert attention from their own indifference and incompetence, by blaming the city's inhabitants for their own suffering. Essentially: We're trying to help these people, but they keep shooting at us!

From a New Orleans paper reporting on the debunking of the rumors (http://www.nola.com/newslogs/tporleans/index.ssf?/mtlogs/nola_tporleans/archives/2005_09_26.html)

The picture that emerged was one of the impoverished, masses of flood victims resorting to utter depravity, randomly attacking each other, as well as the police trying to protect them and the rescue workers trying to save them. Nagin told Winfrey the crowd has descended to an "almost animalistic state."

Clearly, nobody would have believed these slanders on the evacuees so readily, except they were mostly working-class and Black.

The police chief has admitted his statements were exaggerated, and has resigned.

Incidentally, the Mayor Nagin is a Democrat. Since you mention the "Republican lie machine", I might point out that such liberal papers as the New York Times have been debunking the exaggerated crime stories.

Where did you see the footage you mention?

[Ele'ill]

Yeah... that's another thing. I heard last week that reports of fire fights between the national guard and citizens were unfounded. However there is actual footage showing it!

If you could provide a link showing the footage or talking about the footage it would be appreciated.

[JazzRemington]

I saw a diagram in the paper today that had the number of rapes committed yearly, and the number reported to the police. The number reported barely came to about 1/4 of the number committed.

I think we should started teaching that a woman shouldn't be ashamed of it.

[RedCeltic]

No. The claims of widespread crime were an attempt at "damage control", as well as a slander on the working people of New Orleans.



That's a good point. however I tend to think it was actually the media's focus on the crime that perhaps was slander. I think original reports of crime were exagerated. I don't however think it was intentional slander, I think at least the first three days that things were a bit out of control yet the media most likely did make things seem worse than they were.

I'm only going on assumption here, however I tend to think that since statisticly most cases of rape go unreported in any situation, that there were more rapes or sexual assault cases than the official reports claim. However, aside from that you are most likely closer to the truth in that there was alot of exageration about the amount of rape, sexual assault, and crime in general.


If you could provide a link showing the footage or talking about the footage it would be appreciated.

I'm obviously talking about what I saw on the news. Some cases such as the story of someone shooting at a chopper were later said to have been false, and I don't remember ever seeing footage of that so I can only assume it was false. What I was talking about was that I do remember seeing the national Guard shooting at people. I don't know who or why, I believe people were shooting back.

I tend to feel that there was at least some level of lawlessness. I agree that earlier reports were exagerated, for what reason I'm not exactly sure... however I also feel that more recent reports such as only two cases of sexual assault are an underestimation.

[PRC-UTE]

the most "documented" case I saw was the reports of some English tourists that was in one of the British tabloids. . . and they described harrassment, name calling, but I don't remember actual assault. Though they did say that people were dying left and right . . . from health issues and unsanitary conditions.

[Eastside Revolt]

Severian, thank you very much for that link you posted to the New Orleans' rumors article.

This is one piece of imformation that should be spread as far and wide as possible, as further proof to the masses that the media can't be trusted period. :angry:

[Freedom Works]

You can trust media, but only media you trust.

I don't trust CNN. I do trust most news through Google.

What you REALLY shouldn't trust is "government" press releases.

[HankMorgan]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14 2005, 12:00 AM
Severian, thank you very much for that link you posted to the New Orleans' rumors article.

This is one piece of imformation that should be spread as far and wide as possible, as further proof to the masses that the media can't be trusted period. :angry:
All of which makes me wonder about the news coming back from Iraq. The soldiers and Marines coming back say things are going well but the media paints a different picture. This reminds me of New Orleans and Katrina.

Which reminds me of a little piece I heard on the radio. The talk show host was in intelligence while serving in the US Army in Vietnam during the war. He lived through the Tet offensive. He saw first hand the results of one of the greatest victories in US military history. Around that time he had entered and won a writing contest. For winning the contest he was flown back to his home state to meet his US Senators. While in the US he saw how the media was telling the story of the Tet offensive as a loss for the US military which was in direct opposition to what he'd witnessed himself.

[Intifada]

(Hank Morgan)

The soldiers and Marines coming back say things are going well

They would.

[Eastside Revolt]

Originally posted by Freedom [email protected] 15 2005, 02:30 PM
You can trust media, but only media you trust.

Sorry corporate media.

[Dhul Fiqar]

Originally posted by Freedom [email protected] 15 2005, 10:30 PM
I don't trust CNN. I do trust most news through Google.

That's... odd! How can you trust most news through google if it's basically a random selection of news outlets INCLUDING the loathed CNN which you despise so much?

That's like saying you disapprove of alcohol but you do drink beer, even though it contains some alcohol it's mostly hops and other healthy stuff, right?

--- G.

[Freedom Works]

That's... odd! How can you trust most news through google if it's basically a random selection of news outlets INCLUDING the loathed CNN which you despise so much?
Because I base it on experience not the idiotic "OOOH THEY ARE MAKING MONEY THEY MUST NOT BE TELLING THE TRUTH!!!!!11".

[redstar2000]

I was in New Orleans during Hurricane Katrina and for about 48 hours after the storm passed through. I cannot tell you "what really happened" in the Superdome or in and around the Convention Center.

I can tell you that in the working class neighborhood where I lived, the supermarket was looted of food, bottled water, cigarettes, and alcoholic beverages before the winds died down...and that much of the "loot" was freely shared by the "looters" and other neighborhood residents. We knew things were going to be bad...but we had no idea how bad it was going to get.

I did not "evacuate", I fled. As far as my neighborhood was concerned, all public services collapsed. There was no food to be had anywhere. The city water supply was shut down...meaning no fire protection. An unknown number of police simply abandoned the city -- I saw with my own eyes a New Orleans police car parked in a motel parking lot 180 miles west of New Orleans.

I can tell you that there were people in my building who depended on dialysis treatments or insulin...and who were prepared to die -- knowing that nothing would be done for them. The city's hospitals ran out of gasoline to power their generators about 36 hours after the storm. The "911" emergency telephone system went down. There were no ambulances available.

I can tell you what I saw while crossing the bridge across the Mississippi River to leave New Orleans...hundreds of small groups of people walking across the bridge, abandoning the dying city.

It has since been reported that most of the people who died in New Orleans were elderly...the heat, the lack of food and water, etc. was "too much" for them to handle. I could very well have been among them.

I do give the bourgeois media the credit for obtaining assistance for New Orleans. The constant pictures of corpses in the streets or floating in the flood waters became a public-relations nightmare for the Bush administration.

I do not know and don't much care if any of the "atrocity stories" were true or not. The real atrocity was the complete and abysmal failure of local, state, and federal authorities to prepare for or effectively respond to the hurricane. Some of the blunders have already become public and probably many more will come to light.

Remedies will be costly...so if I know capitalism, nothing effective will be done.

Until capitalism is history in North America, I consider it unnecessarily reckless to live within 350 miles of the U.S. gulf coast. Believe me, nothing will be done to help you if you are a storm victim.

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

[bunk]

Your an intelligent person so you must have not underestimated the storms capacity? With your days of warning why didn't you get out of there? Even if it meant walking with a rucksack on your back and camping on some high ground further away you'd of ended up much better placed.

[PRC-UTE]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2005, 02:26 PM
Your an intelligent person so you must have not underestimated the storms capacity? With your days of warning why didn't you get out of there? Even if it meant walking with a rucksack on your back and camping on some high ground further away you'd of ended up much better placed.
Are you joking? He already said it was mostly the elderly, infirm, etc who perished. Would you tell grandma, "grab a bag and run for the hills". Dragging her oxygen tank behind her I supppose.

Look at how well Cuba did. (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=41999) Cuba's a third world country, so the authorities in the USA has no excuse in this.

[bunk]

Originally posted by OglachMcGlinchey+Oct 25 2005, 02:40 PM--> (OglachMcGlinchey @ Oct 25 2005, 02:40 PM)
[email protected] 25 2005, 02:26 PM
Your an intelligent person so you must have not underestimated the storms capacity? With your days of warning why didn't you get out of there? Even if it meant walking with a rucksack on your back and camping on some high ground further away you'd of ended up much better placed.
Are you joking? He already said it was mostly the elderly, infirm, etc who perished. Would you tell grandma, "grab a bag and run for the hills". Dragging her oxygen tank behind her I supppose.

Look at how well Cuba did. (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=41999) Cuba's a third world country, so the authorities in the USA has no excuse in this. [/b]
If he had any money then catch a bus. He's only 65 i thought. He should be fine walking.

[Gnosis]

I remember watching the news and seeing footage of a fire fight between a helicopter and a person on a rooftop.
I also remember watching the news and seeing Guardsmen shooting at civilians on the street and seeing fist fights between Guardsmen and civilians.
The footage was shown for about three seconds maybe, but the comentary described what was going on and they showed the footage multiple times.
I have heard from the news that there were at least two reports of rape, but they did not say if they were found to be true or not.
They showed footage of black people running from stores with their arms full of objects, TVs and VCRs and the like.
I do not know if any of it was real, but that is what I saw.

Also, I agree with the person who said we should teach women to be not ashamed of being raped.
I think we should also teach men what it is like to be a women and to respect women and not rape them.
I also think it is important for women to kow what it is like to be a man so that they don't accidentally send the wrong messege to men by wearing skimpy clothes and teasing them or making them think they want sex if they do not.
Not to say that the only reason a man rapes a woman is because she is dressed like a prostitute, but I am sure that sort of confusion arises in our pop-culture.

I think people should know to respect their own body and the bodies of others.
Unfortunatly, not everyone has been raised in a home where they were respected by their parents or their siblings.
That is where this problem begins, in childhood.
People are denied the knowledge of sex and their body becuase parents don't know how to talk about that sort of thing.
I think a common misconception is that sex and children are some how unrelated therefore should not exist in relation to each other.
People know better, they are embarrased by the truth becuase they have been taught to be.
Denial is a problem and it may not cuase rape directly but I am sure that a more open and respectful world would be less full of rape and sexual torchure.

What do you think?

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2005, 09:26 AM
You're an intelligent person so you must have not underestimated the storms capacity? With your days of warning why didn't you get out of there? Even if it meant walking with a rucksack on your back and camping on some high ground further away you'd of ended up much better placed.
I have been through a fair number of tropical storms and category 1 hurricanes in the course of my life...and it was "no big deal". I was living in a building constructed of concrete blocks...so I did not fear wind damage. And I was living only a few hundred yards from the Mississippi River -- on the rim of the New Orleans "bowl"...so flooding was not something to worry about unless the really massive Mississippi River levees broke.

It never occurred to me that this storm would result in the massive failure of the levee system throughout New Orleans...resulting in the destruction of 80% of the city and the total collapse of organized society.

I have learned a few things from this experience, of course. One should plan to evacuate, if at all practical, as soon as a hurricane enters the Gulf of Mexico. Fill up the tank with gas; move your valuables into your vehicle, gather all the papers that you'll need; etc. There is a possibility that you may never be able to return...so don't leave anything behind that you really want to keep. Your plan should be to leave before any sort of official call for evacuation is issued. Your goal is any kind of sizable town at least 350 miles northwest of the likely hurricane landfall.

You will need enough cash to spend at least three weeks in a motel; look for one with kitchenettes. The American Red Cross paid motel bills for hundreds of thousands of refugees from Katrina and Rita...but don't count on them for picking up your tab.

A very large number of refugees received emergency assistance grants from the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA), but don't count on that money! Many tens of thousands of bona fide victims of Katrina and Rita are still waiting for that money.

I think you'll better understand the mind-set of at least 100,000 or so people in New Orleans who did not evacuate before the storm now; we did not have the resources to leave nor did we realize that everything was going to completely collapse. We anticipated a week or so without electricity and perhaps having to live on peanut butter and crackers and bottled water until the stores re-opened. We regarded hurricanes as an "annoyance"...not a city-destroying disaster.

One neighborhood meeting in New Orleans a few days ago was informed that it would be eight months before power would be restored. In addition to which, each one of the flooded homes and apartment buildings must be completely re-wired by law before the power is turned on to that particular building.

In my opinion, half or more of the people that used to live in New Orleans will never return. There's nothing to go back to.

It's said that about 160,000 homes and apartments were destroyed. The rents on habitable apartments there have doubled and will probably double again. Only workers under contract to government agencies (who pay the rents) will be able to afford to live in New Orleans for a long time to come.

The suggestion that elderly and infirm people should walk out of a city in the path of a hurricane is unrealistic. Not only do their physical limitations make that quite impossible, but you do not want to be outdoors during a major hurricane -- the flying debris makes that an especially hazardous position to be in.

Most structures will withstand a major hurricane without serious damage. It's what happens after the storm that causes the real problems. Our "civilization" (such as it is) is very fragile. Deprived of electricity (its material base), it starts to "come apart" in a fairly short period of time.

Every American city is about one week from what happened in New Orleans or worse -- a week without power plunges us back into barbarism or something very close to that.

Which makes me wonder. How is it that we are still generating and distributing power "late-19th century style"? You know, string a wire on a pole and hope that a high wind will "never" knock it down. I am not an engineer and have never run across any reference to a more durable and reliable technology for distributing electricity to modern cities. I do not understand why transformers are still built in such a way as to resemble the performance of Russian television sets -- you know, they just blow up at random. I cannot understand why electrical substations in hurricane vulnerable areas are not fully protected against possible storm-damage.

But my "best guess" is that these short-comings have something to do with profit and loss statements...in other words, capitalism. High quality engineering costs money...and might even pose a threat to "executive compensation".

And we can't have that, can we?

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

[visceroid]

Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2005, 12:24 PM
I am not an engineer and have never run across any reference to a more durable and reliable technology for distributing electricity to modern cities. I do not understand why transformers are still built in such a way as to resemble the performance of Russian television sets -- you know, they just blow up at random. I cannot understand why electrical substations in hurricane vulnerable areas are not fully protected against possible storm-damage.

i suppose you dont have places with cables going underground along with gas and and water?

who knows, maybe its because a lot of the suburbs around me were only constructed a short time ago, being rural areas before that.


by the way, its good to see you back. im new to the forums but ive been reading your site for quite some time.

[rioters bloc]

Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2005, 02:59 AM
I also think it is important for women to kow what it is like to be a man so that they don't accidentally send the wrong messege to men by wearing skimpy clothes and teasing them or making them think they want sex if they do not.
Not to say that the only reason a man rapes a woman is because she is dressed like a prostitute, but I am sure that sort of confusion arises in our pop-culture.

stranger rape is all about power and not about sexual attraction, so no matter what a womyn wears they're still vulnerable. date-rape is more complex but its roots can still be found in a desire to assert dominance over another. even if a male believes that a womyn is enticing him into sex by dressing 'sluttily', he still needs to receive verbal consent - none of this bullshit about 'oh i could tell by the way she was batting her eyelashes that she wanted it'. and that means a resounding 'yes', not a 'no' or 'maybe' or silence.



Denial is a problem and it may not cuase rape directly but I am sure that a more open and respectful world would be less full of rape and sexual torchure.

i don't see how?

[rioters bloc]

Originally posted by Freedom [email protected] 16 2005, 12:33 AM
You can trust media, but only media you trust.

I don't trust CNN. I do trust most news through Google.

What you REALLY shouldn't trust is "government" press releases.
you do realise that you can pay google to get your site/news link to the top of the list?

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by visceroid
I suppose you don't have places with cables going underground along with gas and water?

A few parts of New Orleans have underground power lines...but there are problems.

One is that the water table in New Orleans is only a couple of feet below ground in most of the city...so lines would have to be protected against water with 100% efficiency.

Another is that when a hurricane blows over one of the massive oak trees found throughout New Orleans, the roots rip up gas lines, water pipes, and power lines.

What might work would be a massive network of "utility tunnels" constructed 20 feet or more below the surface -- it would contain all power lines, natural gas lines, electrical lines, telephone lines, cable lines.

But even if such a network of "utility tunnels" existed, something would still need to be done about the problem of electrical sub-stations being left vulnerable to hurricane or flood damage...or the seemingly rampant unreliability of transformers.

And there is a more "radical" solution that has been mentioned. Don't build cities in areas prone to catastrophic disasters. Treat the American gulf coast the same way we treat the Alaska north coast. The only people who live there are the people who need to live there for occupational reasons.

Sure, the gulf coast is a remarkably pleasant climate to live in most of the time. The harsh winters characteristic of more elevated latitudes are barely felt at all -- one sees perhaps a half-inch of snow in New Orleans once every ten years. Summers are hot and humid...but air conditioning is universal even in the poorest neighborhoods.

Yet all it takes to turn this pleasant locale into "hell" is about 12 hours of hurricane force winds. It would take a massive effort to change that...and I am skeptical that American capitalism has the will to undertake a project on that scale.

Indeed, I've read recently that Louisiana politicians are complaining that most of the federal funds appropriated for rebuilding have gone unspent. It's at least questionable at this point if New Orleans and the small towns in its vicinity will ever be rebuilt.

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

[Severian]

Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2005, 06:29 AM
The suggestion that elderly and infirm people should walk out of a city in the path of a hurricane is unrealistic. Not only do their physical limitations make that quite impossible, but you do not want to be outdoors during a major hurricane -- the flying debris makes that an especially hazardous position to be in.
Right. You don't want to be caught in a traffic jam during a hurricane, either.

Heck, you don't want to be caught in an evacuation super-traffic jam under any circumstances.

107 people died of heatstroke, an exploding bus, and other causes during the evacuation of Houston (http://www.themilitant.com/2005/6941/694160.html) - and if Hurricane Rita had actually hit Houston it likely would have been much worse.

Even when the ruling class wants to organize an evacuation - to avoid more of the political damage they suffered after Hurricane Katrina - they can't do it right. Cuba does it not just with official announcements and cops, but with the mass organization of the population.

If you consider the conditions in the evacuation, and in the shelters, it becomes easier to see why some New Orleans residents were unwilling to evacuate even after the city flooded!

Also, many people didn't want to leave their pets behind. Whether that's sensible or not, it's a reality that many people will feel that way, and they have to be accomodated if you're going to evacuate everybody! Cuba lets people take their pets on evacuation buses, as even the Miami Herald acknowledges (http://www.eluniversal.com.mx/miami/12398.html) (and also has pet shelters. (http://www.themilitant.com/2004/6836/683664.html)

From the Herald article:

"We do what is necessary to prevent any problems," said Yahany Canoua, 6 months pregnant as she was waiting to board an evacuation bus in La Colma, a fishing village on Cuba's southwestern coast. Evacuees crowded the buses with children, pet dogs and plastic bags of food.

Notice that, "we do". The people evacuating are subjects, not objects, of the organized evacuation and relief effort. It's their government and their mass organizations coordinating the evacuation.

The whole "why didn't they leave" question puts things back onto the individual and reflects the whole "every man for himself" attitude which is the real obstacle to an organized social effort to evacuate everybody.

[Ginger Goodwin]

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