Freeing Palestine

[FleasTheLemur]

The question is, would the liberation and the recreation of Palestine result in a socialist or left thinking state? It seems that there is a lot of people who support such a state, but from what I understand it might probably result in another right-wing fundimental Islamic state.

[Someone]

Comrade,


Dont forget that behind israel there is USA and all the capitalists, they wont let palestine easily. And with freeing palestine we will completely inihilate the capitalistes.

Socialisme is the only way of a peacefull world and revolutionary actions must be generated all over the world not only in palestine.

It's my opinion if i am wrong just correct me, im new here !!


bye

:ph34r:

[Intifada]

The question is, would the liberation and the recreation of Palestine result in a socialist or left thinking state?

It depends on the way in which justice and freedom is gained.

If the people of Palestine are freed through a working-class struggle, including both Palestinians and Israelis, then there can be the creation of a socialist state where Jews and Arabs can live side-by-side.


but from what I understand it might probably result in another right-wing fundimental Islamic state.

It is a possibility, though it is also dependent on how the people of Palestine are to be freed.

The likes of Hamas, however, only have an influence because of the illegal occupation, which has created a state of misery and desperation for the Palestinian people.

Their influence has grown because of the work they do for the Palestinian people, in terms of welfare.

That the liberation of the Palestinian people will result in a fundamentalist Islamic state, however, is not a certainty.

[FleasTheLemur]

That makes damn good sense, Intifada.

Is there any numbers on the political leanings of the Palestinians? Is there any major voice in the community with a strong Marxist ideology?

[HoorayForTheRedBlackandGreen]

Palestine is likely to go far-right or authoriatarian left. Thats the impression I get. So, yes they deserve independence, but I won't be pleased with the direction it goes.

[Amusing Scrotum]

I have a great fear that if the Palestinian people are given, or win their freedom. The resulting state, most likely a theocracy of sorts. Will hugely discredit the lefts free Palestine movement in the eyes of many of the works public.
It would also provide another reactionary argument for the ruling elites to spew out against the left and leftist causes.

This does not mean that I don't think there should be a Palestinian state, it just means I am fearful that this state will be incredibly reactionary.


The likes of Hamas, however, only have an influence because of the illegal occupation, which has created a state of misery and desperation for the Palestinian people.


Yes, but historically when freedom is won, the main guerrilla party or opposition party takes power. Now, I know there are supposedly some Communists in Hamas, however there are far to many Religious fanatics for the Communists to be able to gain control and influence policy in any serious way.

[VietMinH]

This might be a little off topic but has anyone seen parts of the gaza strip and west bank that the Israelis had to literally drag people who lived there out of? I saw some footage of militant groups going nuts and burning the empty Israeli homes to the ground...

[Intifada]

(Armchair.Socialism.)

Yes, but historically when freedom is won, the main guerrilla party or opposition party takes power. Now, I know there are supposedly some Communists in Hamas, however there are far to many Religious fanatics for the Communists to be able to gain control and influence policy in any serious way.

Hamas is not the "main" political movement in Occupied Palestine, though it does have a growing influence.

(FleasTheLemur)

Is there any numbers on the political leanings of the Palestinians? Is there any major voice in the community with a strong Marxist ideology?


I don't have solid facts with me at the moment, but the popularity of Marxist groups, such as the PFLP and DFLP, is not great nowadays.

It is a sad fact, but the influence of Islamic groups such as Hamas is growing, though as yet, is not the most popular group politically.

Fatah, founded by Arafat, is still the largest constituency of the PLO.

[Amusing Scrotum]

Hamas is not the "main" political movement in Occupied Palestine, though it does have a growing influence


Fatah, founded by Arafat, is still the largest constituency of the PLO.

But Fatah is still pretty reactionary, isn't it?

It also has sympathy for Hamas and Hamas' ideology and from what I know, really doesn't have strong Socialist beliefs running through it. This is really what worries me, the oppression of the Palestinian people may be ridded by the conception of a Palestinian state. However, I do not want to see a Palestinian state that is just as oppressive and reactionary as Israel.

[Intifada]

(Armchair.Socialism.)

But Fatah is still pretty reactionary, isn't it?


Yes, but I would take a secularist party that preaches national liberation over the likes of Hamas any day.


It also has sympathy for Hamas and Hamas' ideology and from what I know, really doesn't have strong Socialist beliefs running through it.

Sympathy for Hamas and its ideology?

I don't think so.

Moreover, I have no argument with your statement about Fatah's lack of Socialist beliefs, as I have not shown support for Fatah.

[Amusing Scrotum]

Sympathy for Hamas and its ideology?

I always thought it was an IRA, Sinn Fein type of situation, rather than two completely different groups. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Intifada]

I always thought it was an IRA, Sinn Fein type of situation, rather than two completely different groups.

No.

That is completely wrong.

Hamas and Fatah are two different entities, and are in no way connected. One is a hardline Islamist group, the other is a Secularist/Nationalist group.

Fatah is a reverse acronym of Harakat al-Tahrir al-Watani al-Filastin, Palestinian National Liberation Movement. Hamas on the other hand, is an acronym for Harakat al-Muqawima al-Islamiyya, Islamic Resistance Movement.

The two have always been involved in political conflict.

In fact, Hamas was once funded by the Israelis in an attempt to divide Palestinian society.

[Amusing Scrotum]

Cheers Intifada, for putting me right on that. I must admit, it is a few years since I read anything or thought anything serious about the Palastinian affair. I remember I became incredibly interested when we did it in school, however that flame of passion burned out somewhat, and now I am relatively neutral on the whole issue. The fact that it all derives from both sides claims of Religous right to own the land, doesn't do much to stir up any real passion in my belly.

[Intifada]

Originally posted by [email protected] 5 2005, 09:40 PM
Cheers Intifada, for putting me right on that. I must admit, it is a few years since I read anything or thought anything serious about the Palastinian affair. I remember I became incredibly interested when we did it in school, however that flame of passion burned out somewhat, and now I am relatively neutral on the whole issue. The fact that it all derives from both sides claims of Religous right to own the land, doesn't do much to stir up any real passion in my belly.
Maybe you should do what I am planning to do this Summer, and visit the Occupied Palestinian Territories.

[Amusing Scrotum]

Maybe you should do what I am planning to do this Summer, and visit the Occupied Palestinian Territories.

There are two major reasons why I won't be visiting the Occupied Territories any time soon. The first is that I am skint. The second is that although there is probably very little risk of it happening, I am still reasonably fearful of being killed by either a suicide bomber, or the Israeli forces. I am pretty dark and could very well pass for a Palestinian, and they are very trigger happy and don't care much about the consequences.

You'll have to keep some form of diary while you're there and post it when you get back.

[Intifada]

Fair enough.

[FleasTheLemur]

If I had the money, I'd take look around Israel and the occupied territories, but then again, I'm the kind of guy who would set up a free lemonaid stand in Iraq.

[Intifada]

Originally posted by [email protected] 5 2005, 10:27 PM
If I had the money, I'd take look around Israel and the occupied territories, but then again, I'm the kind of guy who would set up a free lemonaid stand in Iraq.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but you are from Scotland right?

[Ownthink]

Is there really any Communists in Hamas? At all?

Check this quote, dunno if it is just Right-Wing crap or what, but here it is anyways:

"HAMAS - AN ANTI-COMMUNIST TERROR SQUAD

The left's and progressive nationalists' toleration of Hamas was a terrible mistake. The Muslim Brotherhood and Hamas reserve their vilest venom for the left. A Hamas slogan makes the organisation's purpose clear: 'Communism is a cancer inside the nation's body and we will cut it out.' For such reasons these movements have for decades been nurtured and financed by the ruling class in its struggle against communism, Marxism and popular democracy in the Middle East. In Egypt and in Syria, the fundamentalists were used to oppose strong working class and communist organisations. In the Palestiman arena both Zionism and Arab reaction, while attacking the Palestinian and Arab left, financed and facilitated the growth of fundamentalism."

http://www.rcgfrfi.easynet.co.uk/marxism/a...es/f111-pal.htm (http://www.rcgfrfi.easynet.co.uk/marxism/articles/f111-pal.htm)

[Free Palestine]

That is total rubbish Ownthink. Palestine is actually instructive for how a "national unity" resistance should be run. Prior to the founding of Hamas in 1987, Islamists in Palestine were hardly involved in the armed struggle - they spent most of their time, believe it or not, arguing about how long to grow one’s beard. If one took up arms, one was regarded as a “Communist”, since armed struggle against Israel was for “Communists”. There was a great deal of sectarian conflict in those days and the precursors to Hamas killed and wounded many Leftists, who the Islamists despised.

Around this time, Israel helped found Hamas as both a divide and conquer strategy against the Palestinians and to Islamicize the face of Palestinian struggle in order to make it less appealing on the international front. In many ways, this strategy was a complete failure. Before the founding of Hamas, the Islamists were attacking Leftists in Palestine all the time. This internecine conflict came to an end soon after the founding of Hamas. After things settled down a bit, the Palestinian resistance moved to a point of equilibrium called “national unity”. Presently, open Leftists and Communists in the PFLP and DFLP fight side by side, with no problems whatsoever, with the hardline Islamists in Hamas.

Professors on Palestinian campuses write openly atheist and blasphemous tracts against Islam and are not harmed. One of the top figures in the PLO is an acknowledged atheist and no one bothers him. There are large marches against suicide bombings. Hamas eschews all local law enforcement and refuses to implement an Islamic dress code. In Ramallah, one can walk into a bar and order a drink during Ramadan - the only place in the Arab World one may do this - and Hamas refuses to even issue an official denunciation. Hamas has never tried to shut down the numerous bars in Palestine.

Although Hamas is officially the Palestinian branch of Muslim Brotherhood, Hamas keeps this a big secret because the MB is so disliked in Palestine (it is regarded as an Islamic extremist organization). Most Palestinians are not even aware of the relationship. Last Christmas, Hamas members actually presented gifts and toys to churches in Bethlehem - an unthinkable act for a hardline Islamist group. Hardline Islamist imams in Gaza have called for Palestinian Christians and Muslims to fight side by side against Israel. Palestinian Christians, and some Muslims, wear whatever they please, and miniskirts and not unheard of, even in Gaza (I've seen it). The Islamists don’t like Western dress, and comments are made, but Hamas has never tried to enforce any kind of Islamic dress code in Palestine.

Palestinian papers are filled with articles that many hardline Palestinians would consider to be openly treasonous - calls for calling off the armed struggle, for settling for the most debasing peace agreements with Israel, for peaceful struggle a`la Gandhi, for disarming the armed groups, etc. Through it all, Hamas and the hardliners generally keep their mouths shut and tolerate openly “sellout” positions, all in the name of national unity. Although the differences between the Left, the PLO and the Islamists are often very wide, there is not much discussion of these differences - they are all temporarily glossed over in the name of national unity.

PFLP and DFLP fighters, open Leftists, came out for the funerals of Hamas leaders Sheik Yassin and Abdulaziz Rantissi and were seen fighting in the battles with the IDF that erupted afterwards. Human rights organizations operate openly in Palestine, criticizing both the Israeli and the Palestinian sides, and the armed factions leave them alone. Most importantly of all, all Palestinian factions have deep roots in their communities and do not brutalize the people they live amongst. In many places, almost everyone in the community is part of the resistance in one way or another, from young kids to women to old folks - everyone serves some function. You can’t get closer to the people than that.

Journalists, politicians, government workers, UN employees, aid workers, Christians, Druze, students, innocent civilians, even ISF volunteers, have nothing to fear from Hamas, the most radical of the Palestinian factions. Hamas has never been known kidnap foreigners for ransom, or to behead prisoners, much less to do so on videotape. Hamas has never attacked a Palestinian school, store, campus, neighborhood, mosque, church, bar, press office, polling place, government office or hospital. Only informers for Israel have something to fear, and usually only after a serious investigation.

Even on the rare occasions when Hamas has taken an Israeli soldier hostage, the captives were treated fairly well, at least until Israel made the mistake of trying to “free” them. Hamas held them as ransom to try to get its own prisoners out of Israeli prisons. When Israel refused to negotiate and stormed the hideout, the guerrillas executed the prisoner, which is a crime, but that is still not the same thing as wanton execution of all enemy prisoners or beheading prisoners on tape and peddling the gorefest around the Internet. Even during the 90’s, while the PA spent much of its time arresting Hamas and Islamic Jihad activists as favors for the US and Israel, Islamic guerrillas generally refrained from attacks on the PA, a breathtaking show of self-restraint.

While controversy has swirled over the Palestinian terror tactic of suicide bombings against civilians, the world fails to recognize that almost all Palestinian attacks have been against military or settler targets in the Territories, and only a relative few attacks have occurred inside the Green Line. Palestinian guerrillas have repeatedly offered to cease all attacks on civilians inside Israel, only to be endlessly rebuffed. One gets the feeling that Israel wants a suicide attack inside the Green Line now and again to malign the enemy and feed its propaganda machine. Even here, though, Palestinian terrorists have taken a nuanced stance.

The point here is that all of these people - atheists, blasphemers, bartenders and bar patrons, women in miniskirts, “sell-outs” and compromise-at-any-cost types, human rights activists, journalists, humanitarian workers, Leftists, Communists, feminists, Christians - are basically left alone! There may be some words exchanged here and there, but in general, no one threatens them, puts a gun to their head, beats them up, attacks them, tortures them, much less kills them or chops their head off on tape. This is the intelligent way to run a principled, intelligent, nationalist resistance to a colonizer, occupier or invader. Why? Because by fracturing and fighting amongst themselves, the resistance serves the needs of the occupier. Divide and conquer is the age-old colonial game and the smartest resistance movements try not to fall for it. The Iraqi Resistance has done exactly the opposite of the Palestinian resistance. Instance of uniting for national unity like the Palestinians, they are reactionary, sectarian, fascistic, oppressive, domineering, racist, amd tribalistic. Do not confuse the Iraqi resistance with the Palestinian resistance.

[FleasTheLemur]

Originally posted by Intifada+Oct 5 2005, 10:29 PM--> (Intifada @ Oct 5 2005, 10:29 PM)
[email protected] 5 2005, 10:27 PM
If I had the money, I'd take look around Israel and the occupied territories, but then again, I'm the kind of guy who would set up a free lemonaid stand in Iraq.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but you are from Scotland right? [/b]
Actually, I'm from the Applachian Region of the United $nakes. Same exploitation, different capitalists.

[Intifada]

Okay.

I was very far off.

[FleasTheLemur]

It's cool, Inny.

Where about are you, pray tell?

[Intifada]

Scotland.

I was asking because the Scottish Palestine Solidarity Camapaign send a delegation to the OPTs every year.

I am going with them.

[mov.julio26]

I think that we should all hope that Palestine gains independence from Israel and the United States. Whatever path they take either as a theocracy or communist or whatever, they will be viewed by the US as a problem because Israel will not let this matter go by easily. Stating this Israel has strong support from the US and both these imperialistic nations will do everything with in their power to destroy a free Palestine.

[mov.julio26]

Intifada do you mind if i take that quote you have of Marwan Baghouti? one of the best quotes i've seen

[rioters bloc]

Originally posted by [email protected] 6 2005, 07:43 AM
Maybe you should do what I am planning to do this Summer, and visit the Occupied Palestinian Territories.
so am i

but methinks my summer is your winter.

[Intifada]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2005, 03:10 AM
Intifada do you mind if i take that quote you have of Marwan Baghouti? one of the best quotes i've seen
Of course not.

You shouldn't have to ask, it wasn't me who said it.


so am i

but methinks my summer is your winter.

Awesome.

My summer is around June-August 2006.

[mov.julio26]

Thanks. I also like to one by Malcom X.

[mov.julio26]

What do you guys think will be the US's reaction when Palestine gains its independence from the so called state of Israel?

[Intifada]

The US, as shown by their actions in various "peace processes" that have come and gone, has no interest in giving the Palestinian people a viable state, independent from Israel.

Washington, contrary to its claims of wanting peace, has acted on behalf of the Israelis, instead of being a "peace maker" in the conflict.

The US, to answer your question, has never been interested in building an independent Palestinian state, unless somebody can prove me wrong.

[rioters bloc]

so am i

but methinks my summer is your winter.

Awesome.

My summer is around June-August 2006.

nice nice, im [hopefully] going in around january/february 2006. but there's only a really slim period in which i can go [i have stuff to do in australia, and my uncles getting married in bangladesh so i wanted to go to that] so i don't know how likely it is. but its something ive wanted to do for a while now. that and go to chiapas.

[Intifada]

nice nice, im [hopefully] going in around january/february 2006. but there's only a really slim period in which i can go [i have stuff to do in australia, and my uncles getting married in bangladesh so i wanted to go to that] so i don't know how likely it is. but its something ive wanted to do for a while now. that and go to chiapas.

Well good luck with all that.

:)

[OleMarxco]

Heheh, back to Paleschtine, isn't we not, fightin're Israeli SCHWAINE!? ;)
Well, now, I don't 'sactly think they're - 'cuz of they're nation - ARE schwine,
but just simply 'cuz they got their country - non-legally, in "payment" of their sufferin's durin' the ---secon' world war. And therefore, they decided to; "Well, let'em oppress're Palestinia's! No-one need's them, let them take half'eir country and occupy the other".

Yeah, sure, and they're terrorist-nazi's for tryin' to claim ANYTHIN' :D

[sleepy1]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14 2005, 04:39 PM
Heheh, back to Paleschtine, isn't we not, fightin're Israeli SCHWAINE!? ;)
Well, now, I don't 'sactly think they're - 'cuz of they're nation - ARE schwine,
but just simply 'cuz they got their country - non-legally, in "payment" of their sufferin's durin' the ---secon' world war. And therefore, they decided to; "Well, let'em oppress're Palestinia's! No-one need's them, let them take half'eir country and occupy the other".

Yeah, sure, and they're terrorist-nazi's for tryin' to claim ANYTHIN' :D
the process of ocupation of palestine have started way before the second world war. the first major step towards it was after the zionist leadership recived the "balfour declaration"(1917) from the british govorment. the first majot immigration(in modern times) of jews to palestine was actually somewhere between 1860-1885(i dnt really remember the exact date). but the holocoust indeed had a major effect at the u.n voting concerning it at 1948.

what do you lot think should happen to the israeli state in order to free the people of palestine?
do you think it should cease to exist?

[mov.julio26]

I am not sure if Israel shoudl cease to exist or not, but I think that anybody in their right mind does not agree with the occupation. I dont think there is nothing wrong with Israel to cease to exist, since it has only been in existence since 1948 and before 1948 there didnt seem to be any major problems. I might be wrong. Complicated question. I would like to hear what Intifada has to say about this.