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refuse_resist
3rd October 2005, 23:29
http://www.plp.org/pl_magazine/trotskypl74.pdf

ÑóẊîöʼn
4th October 2005, 00:34
Wow, another trotskyist bashing thread. Colour me unsurprised.

PRC-UTE
4th October 2005, 01:06
And refuse resist has Chavez, a man who is friendly to Trots, as his/her avatar.

The Garbage Disposal Unit
4th October 2005, 01:14
Wow, the PLP (incoherent sectarian Stalinists) bashing Trotskyism - big surprise.

That said, an attack on the historical mistakes of Trotsky doesn't really add up to much of a meaningful criticism of the Trotskyist milieu as a whole.

Reds
4th October 2005, 01:57
In my view(and in trotsky`s) stalin was the real vangaurd of the bourgeoisie

Poum_1936
4th October 2005, 04:13
And refuse resist has Chavez, a man who is friendly to Trots, as his/her avatar.

Who has more than once praised Trots on national television. The Hands Off Venezuela was created with the help of trots, which now has world wide acclaim. And the trots were the first ones that Ive noticed at least to NOTICE a revolution in Venezuela.

PRC-UTE
4th October 2005, 08:11
Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2005, 03:44 AM

And refuse resist has Chavez, a man who is friendly to Trots, as his/her avatar.

Who has more than once praised Trots on national television. The Hands Off Venezuela was created with the help of trots, which now has world wide acclaim. And the trots were the first ones that Ive noticed at least to NOTICE a revolution in Venezuela.
My party did, the IRSP.

Guest1
4th October 2005, 19:59
Doesn't the IRSP work closely with the same people behind the Hands Off Venezuela campaign?

Scottish_Militant
4th October 2005, 20:16
I'm sure many IRSP members are supporters of the HOV campaign, including Gerry Ruddy.

The PLP article is sectarian horseshit.

YKTMX
4th October 2005, 20:34
The PLP?....seriously?

Jeez.

Jimmie Higgins
4th October 2005, 20:42
Wow, there are still Stalinists!? Oh, only on the internet.

bezdomni
4th October 2005, 20:44
Worker's International League (WIL) started the HOV campaign. They publish a Trotskyist newspaper called Socialist Appeal. I lead the YFIS chapter in Houston (YFIS is the youth group of WIL).

PRC-UTE
4th October 2005, 23:09
Originally posted by Che y [email protected] 4 2005, 07:30 PM
Doesn't the IRSP work closely with the same people behind the Hands Off Venezuela campaign?
I know at least two party members who are active in it, and many more who support it, such as myself.

BOZG
5th October 2005, 00:05
Originally posted by Che y [email protected] 4 2005, 07:30 PM
Doesn't the IRSP work closely with the same people behind the Hands Off Venezuela campaign?
There's a section of the IRSP trying to cosy up to the CMI, the founders of the HOV campaign and so have become involved in their campaign.

Led Zeppelin
5th October 2005, 12:49
What do Trotskyists think of the international Leninist current with their "back to Leninism"?

Jimmie Higgins
5th October 2005, 17:58
Originally posted by Marxism-[email protected] 5 2005, 12:30 PM
What do Trotskyists think of the international Leninist current with their "back to Leninism"?
I am not too familiar with this, could you provide a link or summerize "back to lenninism"?

Axel1917
5th October 2005, 18:09
Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2005, 03:54 AM

And refuse resist has Chavez, a man who is friendly to Trots, as his/her avatar.

Who has more than once praised Trots on national television. The Hands Off Venezuela was created with the help of trots, which now has world wide acclaim. And the trots were the first ones that Ive noticed at least to NOTICE a revolution in Venezuela.

From BOZG


There's a section of the IRSP trying to cosy up to the CMI, the founders of the HOV campaign and so have become involved in their campaign.
Yes, these facts are obvious, but Stalinists have a habit of being absurdly contradictory and refusing to believe in the facts. They also don't seem politically active; a lot of them just go on the Internet, communicate to each other, and engage in Trotsky bashing. And those Thermidorians call us vangauards of the Bourgeoisie. :rolleyes:

It is interesting to see the progress we in the CMI (I am in the US section, the WIL) are making. Large numbers of members and such can't get people the right ideas. The sectarians don't seem to understand this.

Led Zeppelin
5th October 2005, 18:22
I am not too familiar with this, could you provide a link or summerize "back to lenninism"?


Ironically I can only find a MIM article on it Back To Leninism (http://www.etext.org/Politics/MIM/wim/wyl/backtolen.html).

Ignore the blatant propaganda.

Jimmie Higgins
5th October 2005, 18:39
Originally posted by Marxism-[email protected] 5 2005, 06:03 PM

I am not too familiar with this, could you provide a link or summerize "back to lenninism"?


Ironically I can only find a MIM article on it Back To Leninism (http://www.etext.org/Politics/MIM/wim/wyl/backtolen.html).

Ignore the blatant propaganda.
Ok, that was the worst politcical analysis I've ever read. It didn't bring up any of the political points or arguments!

Both Lennin and trotsky focused on a revolution in the west, not out of "eurocentricism", but because they believed a revolution in a country with little industrialization couldn't survive isolated without a revolution in an industrialized nation. With "globalization" I think this is just as true today as it was in 1917.

Reds
5th October 2005, 19:30
Anthor fine artical from the middle class internationalist movement.

Scars
5th October 2005, 22:59
The PLP are not 'Stalinist'. They uphold Stalin, but are critical of many things that he did, many things that he did not do and does not engage in the sort of deification of him, or any other Communist leader, that other 'Stalinist' parties do.

If you would bother going and reading what they have to say instead of simply yelling "STALINISTS! BAD EBIL EBIL EBIL!" you would realise that the PLP's ideology is very, very different from pretty much any party anywhere in the world. They're more anarcho-communist and Maoist inspired than what would traditionally be called 'Stalinist'.

And the PLP do not just exist on the internet, they are involved in multiple campaigns in the US, as well as the unions. They are a small party and they freely admit this, however they've been growing and there has been a 25% increase in subscriptions to their newspaper (Challange) in the last year or so, which is an impressive feat for a small party with limited funds.

And out of interest, did anyone actually read the article? Or did you just see the PLP mentioned and click into Stalin-bashing mode? And their appart 'Secterianism', have you actually read the justification and reasoning behind thier policy? Or do you just call them Secterian because it's a nice buzzword that makes demonising the PLP much simplier than intelligently discussing them? And did you look at when this was written? 1974. Only 31 years ago. The PLP has written comparitively few articles on Trotsky in the last decade, no more than Trotskite parties have written about why Stalin was a bastard. Most of their articles focus on local events, current campaigns, international events, the PLPs policy, how things would function under Communism etc.

They have opposed Trotsky since their creation and they have upheld Stalin since their creation. They have actually become increasingly critical of Stalin since the '70s. They refuse to work with other parties for valid reasons, not because they're the Stalin obsessed wankers that people try to make them out as. The PLP aren't as secterian or 'Stalinist' as people would like them to be. Sorry to dissapoint.

The Garbage Disposal Unit
6th October 2005, 01:06
Originally posted by Scars+Oct 5 2005, 10:40 PM--> (Scars @ Oct 5 2005, 10:40 PM)And out of interest, did anyone actually read the article?[/b]

Me @ Oct 4 [email protected] 12:55 AM
That said, an attack on the historical mistakes of Trotsky doesn't really add up to much of a meaningful criticism of the Trotskyist milieu as a whole.

chebol
6th October 2005, 04:28
We did an interview with Chavez in 1994, for what it's worth.

Also, I think you might want to clarify the "back to Leninism" a bit more. It's not as simple as the info might appear. (Or rather it is, but that's misleading).

PRC-UTE
6th October 2005, 05:23
Originally posted by BOZG+Oct 4 2005, 11:46 PM--> (BOZG @ Oct 4 2005, 11:46 PM)
Che y [email protected] 4 2005, 07:30 PM
Doesn't the IRSP work closely with the same people behind the Hands Off Venezuela campaign?
There's a section of the IRSP trying to cosy up to the CMI, the founders of the HOV campaign and so have become involved in their campaign. [/b]
There's also "a section of the IRSP" who travelled to Venezuala, developed a relationship to comrades there and came back and wrote about their experiences. You either deliberately failed to mention that or formed a judgement without being aware of all the facts.

chebol
6th October 2005, 06:20
Ah, so there's a section of the IRSP that's trying to cosy up to Chavez then. ;)

Gotcha.

When did the comrades from the IRSP visit Venezuela?

chebol
6th October 2005, 06:22
I may add that it was lovely to watch the expression on the faces of some of the stalinist youth organisations at the festival in Caracas when Chavez quoted Che to criticise the USSR, and then quoted Trosky. :blink:

PRC-UTE
6th October 2005, 06:34
Originally posted by [email protected] 6 2005, 06:01 AM
Ah, so there's a section of the IRSP that's trying to cosy up to Chavez then. ;)

Gotcha.

When did the comrades from the IRSP visit Venezuela?
:lol:

Nice try. The IRSP have worked alongside revolutionary currents throughout the globe including Cuba, Palestine, Britain and America to name a few places.

The travelled over there a few months ago . . . I'm thinking May perhaps.

PRC-UTE
6th October 2005, 06:35
And I posted at revleft one of our members articles on their experiences there.

Led Zeppelin
6th October 2005, 14:31
Both Lennin and trotsky focused on a revolution in the west, not out of "eurocentricism", but because they believed a revolution in a country with little industrialization couldn't survive isolated without a revolution in an industrialized nation.

"‘Uneven economic and political development is an absolute law of capitalism. Hence, the victory of socialism is possible in several or even in one capitalist country, taken singly." Lenin Selected works; Eng. Ed., Vol.5; p.141

"The development of capitalism proceeds extremely unevenly in the various countries. It cannot be otherwise under the commodity production system. From this, it follows irrefutably that socialism cannot achieve victory simultaneously in all countries. It will achieve victory first in one or several countries, while the others will remain bourgeois or pre-bourgeois for some time." Lenin War programme of the Proletarian Revolution, in: Collected Works, Vol. 29; p. 325

"‘As a separate slogan, however, the slogan of the United States of the World would hardly be a correct one, first, because it merges with socialism; second, because it may be wrongly interpreted to mean that the victory of socialism in a single country is impossible, and it may also create misconceptions as to the relations of such a country to the others." Lenin ‘The United States of Europe’ slogan; Selected Works, Eng. Ed., Vol. 5; p.141


Also, I think you might want to clarify the "back to Leninism" a bit more. It's not as simple as the info might appear. (Or rather it is, but that's misleading).

I just found their manifesto (http://www.ngy1.1st.ne.jp/~ieg/left-org/europe/ilc/manifeste.html).

Never mind the above link, these guys are still Trotskyists, I take it the real back to Leninism movement isn't.

Poum_1936
6th October 2005, 22:59
Oh boy, Lenin Qouting time!

24th January 1918:

"We are far from having completed even the transitional period from capitalism to socialism. We have never cherished the hope that we could finish it without the aid of the international proletariat. We never had any illusions on that scoreÉ The final victory of socialism in a single country is of course impossible. Our contingent of workers and peasants which is upholding Soviet power is one of the contingents of the great world army, which at present has been split by the world war, but which is striving for unityÉ We can now see clearly how far the development of the Revolution will go. The Russian began it - the German, the Frenchman and the Englishman will finish it, and socialism will be victorious." (LCW, Vol. 26, pp. 465-72.)

8th March 1918:

"The Congress considers the only reliable guarantee of the consolidation of the socialist revolution that has been victorious in Russia to be its conversion into a world working-class revolution." (LCW, from Resolution on War and Peace, Vol. 27. p. 119.)

23rd April 1918:

"We shall achieve final victory only when we succeed at last in conclusively smashing international imperialism, which relies on the tremendous strength of its equipment and discipline. But we shall achieve victory only together with all the workers of other countries, of the whole worldÉ" (LCW, Vol. 27, p. 231.)

14th May 1918:

"To wait until the working classes carry out a revolution on an international scale means that everyone will remain suspended in mid-airÉ It may begin with brilliant success in one country and then go through agonising periods, since final victory is only possible on a world scale, and only by the joint efforts of the workers of all countries." (LCW, Vol. 27, pp. 372-3.)

29th July 1918:

"We never harboured the illusion that the forces of the proletariat and the revolutionary people of any one country, however heroic and however organised and disciplined they might be, could overthrow international imperialism. That can be done only by the joint efforts of the workers of the worldÉ We never deceived ourselves into thinking this could be done by the efforts of one country alone. We knew that our efforts were inevitably leading to a worldwide revolution, and that the war begun by the imperialist governments could not be stopped by the efforts of those governments themselves. It can be stopped only by the efforts of all workers; and when we came to power, our task É was to retain that power, that torch of socialism, so that it might scatter as many sparks as possible to add to the growing flames of socialist revolution." (LCW, Vol. 28, pp. 24-5.)

8th November 1918:

"From the very beginning of the October Revolution, foreign policy and international relations have been the main question facing us. Not merely because from now on all the states of the world are being firmly linked by imperialism into one, dirty, bloody mass, but because the complete victory of the socialist revolution in one country alone is inconceivable and demands the most active co-operation of at least several advanced countries, which do not include RussiaÉ We have never been so near to world proletarian revolution as we are now. We have proved we were not mistaken in banking on world proletarian revolutionÉ Even if they crush one country, they can never crush the world proletarian revolution, they will only add fuel to the flames that will consume them all." (LCW, Vol. 28, pp. 151-64.)

20th November 1918:

"The transformation of our Russian Revolution into a socialist revolution was not a dubious venture but a necessity, for there was no other alternative: Anglo-French and American imperialism will inevitably destroy the independence and freedom of Russia if the world socialist revolution, world Bolshevism, does not triumph." (LCW, Vol. 28, p. 188.)

15th March 1919:

"Complete and final victory on a world scale cannot be achieved in Russia alone; it can be achieved only when the proletariat is victorious in at least all the advanced countries, or, at all events, in some of the largest of the advanced countries. Only then shall we be able to say with absolute confidence that the cause of the proletariat has triumphed, that our first objective - the overthrow of capitalism - has been achieved. We have achieved this objective in one country, and this confronts us with a second task. Since Soviet power has been established, since the bourgeoisie has been overthrown in one country, the second task in to wage the struggle on a world scale, on a different plane, the struggle of the proletarian state surrounded by capitalist states." (LCW, Vol. 29, pp. 151-64.)

5th December 1919:

"Both prior to October and during the October Revolution, we always said that we regard ourselves and can only regard ourselves as one of the contingents of the international proletarian armyÉ We always said that the victory of the socialist revolution therefore, can only be regarded as final when it becomes the victory of the proletariat in at least several advanced countries." (LCW, Vol. 30, pp. 207-8.)

20th November 1920:

"The Mensheviks assert that we are pledged to defeating the world bourgeoisie on our own. We have, however, always said that we are only a single link in the chain of the world revolution, and have never set ourselves the aim of achieving victory by our own means." (LCW, Vol. 31, p. 431.)

End of February 1922:

"But we have not finished building even the foundations of socialist economy and the hostile powers of moribund capitalism can still deprive us of that. We must clearly appreciate this and frankly admit it; for there is nothing more dangerous than illusionsÉ And there is absolutely nothing terrible É in admitting this bitter truth; for we have always urged and reiterated the elementary truth of Marxism - that the joint efforts of the workers of several advanced countries are needed for the victory of socialism." (LCW, Vol. 33, p. 206.)

BOZG
6th October 2005, 23:44
Originally posted by [email protected] 6 2005, 05:04 AM
There's also "a section of the IRSP" who travelled to Venezuala, developed a relationship to comrades there and came back and wrote about their experiences. You either deliberately failed to mention that or formed a judgement without being aware of all the facts.
No, you're just getting a slight bit sensitive. I was pointing out that there are certain links between a section of the IRSP and the CMI and because of that, the IRSP have become involved specifically in the HOV campaign rather than having their own campaign etc.

PRC-UTE
7th October 2005, 01:52
Originally posted by BOZG+Oct 6 2005, 11:25 PM--> (BOZG @ Oct 6 2005, 11:25 PM)
[email protected] 6 2005, 05:04 AM
There's also "a section of the IRSP" who travelled to Venezuala, developed a relationship to comrades there and came back and wrote about their experiences. You either deliberately failed to mention that or formed a judgement without being aware of all the facts.
No, you're just getting a slight bit sensitive. I was pointing out that there are certain links between a section of the IRSP and the CMI and because of that, the IRSP have become involved specifically in the HOV campaign rather than having their own campaign etc. [/b]
Ah, tuigim. Ta bron orm. :blush:

chebol
7th October 2005, 01:57
McGlinchey, I wasn't having a go. I have great respect for the IRSP (I'm also on the FIRSCA list), and am aware of the international work you do.

I was responding to the comment by BOZG implying that the IRSP is involved in HOV because they're cosying up to the CMI. Surely the logic of that argument, when extended, means that your comrades are just going there to ask Chavez to put in a good word for them with Alan Woods.
:blink:

That kind of sectarianism and cynicism can fatally harm solidarity campaigns- I know from experience. BOZG, if you meant what you said in your follow-up post, why didn't you say so?

HOV, as far as I can gather, is largely a CMI-run organisation. It doesn't have to be. There is greater use in having one solidarity campaign, than, say, 2, or 7.

Oglach, I was honestly just wondering when your comrades were there- I, or some of my comrades, may have met them. That was all.

sovietx17
7th October 2005, 03:13
I'm a member of WIL and yes, HOV is, for the most part, run by CMI. However, anyone can join in and participate.

Scottish_Militant
7th October 2005, 05:35
No, you're just getting a slight bit sensitive. I was pointing out that there are certain links between a section of the IRSP and the CMI and because of that, the IRSP have become involved specifically in the HOV campaign rather than having their own campaign etc.

What would be the point in having their "own campaign" ? The HOV campaign is not exclusive to any single party or group, it's supporters are very broad based, our common goal is our solidarity with the Bolivarian revolution.

PRC-UTE
7th October 2005, 17:57
Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2005, 01:38 AM
McGlinchey, I wasn't having a go. I have great respect for the IRSP (I'm also on the FIRSCA list), and am aware of the international work you do.

I was responding to the comment by BOZG implying that the IRSP is involved in HOV because they're cosying up to the CMI. Surely the logic of that argument, when extended, means that your comrades are just going there to ask Chavez to put in a good word for them with Alan Woods.
:blink:

That kind of sectarianism and cynicism can fatally harm solidarity campaigns- I know from experience. BOZG, if you meant what you said in your follow-up post, why didn't you say so?

HOV, as far as I can gather, is largely a CMI-run organisation. It doesn't have to be. There is greater use in having one solidarity campaign, than, say, 2, or 7.

Oglach, I was honestly just wondering when your comrades were there- I, or some of my comrades, may have met them. That was all.
Ah, thank you comrade, sorry for the misunderstanding! It's easy to misinterpret things on the net as you can't hear inflections and all.

There's a lot of good work being done by a large number of people, trots are well represented in this group, in building solidarity with Venezuala. I think the IWPA is also in solidarity with the boliviarian revolution.

Led Zeppelin
8th October 2005, 07:24
Poum_1936, I have commented on all those quotes on E-G, basically it comes down to the "final victory" and "victory" of socialism, when Lenin says "final victory" he means achieving Communism, which can of course only be done after world revolution.

You were refuted by the fact that Lenin said that socialism is possible in one country.

Scottish_Militant
8th October 2005, 09:10
You were refuted by the fact that Lenin said that socialism is possible in one country.

It depends what you mean by "socialism" I suppose, you could have one or few countries heading towards socialism but this can never fully be safegaurded until capitalism does not exist on an international scale. There are countries you might consider "socialist" bu a return to capitalism is still possible due to imperialism. If socialism is a higher stage of development than capitalism then we shouldn't be quick to label things as "socialist", we have to fight until the end and make it clear the dangers we face.

BOZG
9th October 2005, 11:59
Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2005, 05:16 AM
What would be the point in having their "own campaign" ? The HOV campaign is not exclusive to any single party or group, it's supporters are very broad based, our common goal is our solidarity with the Bolivarian revolution.
Certain organisations may think that the HOV campaign are too uncritical or overly critical of Chavez so would have slight political differences and as a result, may form their own campaign around the issue, offering a different political analysis.



chebol,
I'm not a fucking mind reader, it's not my problem if you misunderstand what I'm saying. And the basis for any organisation coming into contact with another is a process of "cosying up" in order to extend some influence, whether good or bad.

chebol
10th October 2005, 08:23
Hey!

Cool it comrade.

There is, by the way, a difference between "certain links" and simply being involved in a worthwhile camaign.

If there are, indeed, such links, they ought to be brought up in a relevant manner, not in a misleading one.

Neither Oglach, nor myself, are mind readers either, so it's a matter of course that we are clear in our meanings when writing them down- noone gets all the nuance in typeface, and misunderstandings can get blownout of proportion.

OK?

Led Zeppelin
10th October 2005, 15:28
you could have one or few countries heading towards socialism but this can never fully be safegaurded until capitalism does not exist on an international scale.

Actually socialism can be built in one or a few nation-states.


There are countries you might consider "socialist" bu a return to capitalism is still possible due to imperialism.

Those countries are not socialist, they are either building socialism (which is when we refer to them as socialist) or are revisionist.

Scottish_Militant
10th October 2005, 15:39
Actually socialism can be built in one or a few nation-states.

You ignored my points



Those countries are not socialist, they are either building socialism (which is when we refer to them as socialist)

re-read what you just wrote :lol:

Led Zeppelin
10th October 2005, 15:52
You ignored my points


You had no points, you just said "socialism can't be achieved as long as capitalism/imperialism exists", that's false.


re-read what you just wrote

Yes, we call nations socialist when they are in the process of building socialism, i.e., have not yet reached the first phase of Communism (socialism).

For example the USSR is called socialist (by some) from 1917 until 1953, that doesn't meant it had reached the first phase of Communism (socialism), that means that it was building socialism during that period.

Scottish_Militant
10th October 2005, 16:06
You had no points, you just said "socialism can't be achieved as long as capitalism/imperialism exists", that's false.

That is not a quote by me, why have you not quoted me?

Led Zeppelin
10th October 2005, 16:15
That is not a quote by me, why have you not quoted me?

It is not an exact quote by you, but what you said was basically that.

That is of course to everyone who can read and comprehend.

I didn't quote you because it wasn't necessary, actually it would have been quite pointless.

Axel1917
10th October 2005, 16:46
Originally posted by Marxism-[email protected] 8 2005, 07:05 AM
Poum_1936, I have commented on all those quotes on E-G, basically it comes down to the "final victory" and "victory" of socialism, when Lenin says "final victory" he means achieving Communism, which can of course only be done after world revolution.

You were refuted by the fact that Lenin said that socialism is possible in one country.
Lenin never parroted such Stalinistic nonsense. :rolleyes: Are you even aware of how often Lenin kept stressing the victories of revolutions in other, mainly advanced nations, particularly in regards to the German Revolution? As others have already stated, things will not be safe until the international, imperialistic threats of capitalism are eliminated via means of revolution.

Led Zeppelin
10th October 2005, 16:49
"‘As a separate slogan, however, the slogan of the United States of the World would hardly be a correct one, first, because it merges with socialism; second, because it may be wrongly interpreted to mean that the victory of socialism in a single country is impossible, and it may also create misconceptions as to the relations of such a country to the others." Lenin ‘The United States of Europe’ slogan; Selected Works, Eng. Ed., Vol. 5; p.141

Read the thread before you post in it please.

Scottish_Militant
10th October 2005, 20:43
It is not an exact quote by you, but what you said was basically that.

False.

If you are going to accuse me of something then quote me.

This 'everybody knows what you really meant' nonsense dosent hold water.

Led Zeppelin
10th October 2005, 20:50
False.

"socialism can't be achieved as long as capitalism/imperialism exists" my version

"you could have one or few countries heading towards socialism but this can never fully be safegaurded until capitalism does not exist on an international scale.

There are countries you might consider "socialist" bu a return to capitalism is still possible due to imperialism." your version

Stop wasting my time.

Scottish_Militant
10th October 2005, 20:53
Dont flame me.

I have neither argued for or against the case of socialism being "possible" in one country, my point is that many are quick to declare somewhere as "socialist" whilst ignoring the collosal international pressures and dangers of returning to capitalism that it faces.

The quote you 'invented' for me was completely off the mark, and now you resort to flaming me because of it.

Led Zeppelin
10th October 2005, 20:56
The quote you 'invented' for me was completely off the mark

It was not "off the mark", it was what you said only shortened.

Scottish_Militant
11th October 2005, 05:30
I see you have removed the flame, and your justifications for using it. Good.

Perhaps you will also now admit that you were trying to invent my opinions for me.

Led Zeppelin
11th October 2005, 05:35
I see you have removed the flame, and your justifications for using it.

Yes, I did so because LSD said it was a flame.


Perhaps you will also now admit that you were trying to invent my opinions for me.

No, any person who can read will know that I didn't try such a thing.

Scottish_Militant
11th October 2005, 05:47
I think people can judge that by themselves.

Good day.

Led Zeppelin
11th October 2005, 05:55
I think people can judge that by themselves.

People who can read can, yes, hopefully.


Good day.

Are you going somewhere?

Bye.

Scottish_Militant
11th October 2005, 14:44
Are you going somewhere?


No, why?

Axel1917
11th October 2005, 16:31
Originally posted by Marxism-[email protected] 10 2005, 04:30 PM
"‘As a separate slogan, however, the slogan of the United States of the World would hardly be a correct one, first, because it merges with socialism; second, because it may be wrongly interpreted to mean that the victory of socialism in a single country is impossible, and it may also create misconceptions as to the relations of such a country to the others." Lenin ‘The United States of Europe’ slogan; Selected Works, Eng. Ed., Vol. 5; p.141

Read the thread before you post in it please.
Did you even bother reading Kalashnikov1917's previous statement on that? Probably not. :rolleyes: I also would not consider one with Stalin amongst the main authors on his website's list credible either. :rolleyes:

BOZG
11th October 2005, 19:46
Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2005, 08:04 AM
There is, by the way, a difference between "certain links" and simply being involved in a worthwhile camaign.
I am cool. I tend to write how I speak, which is to swear a lot which comes across as aggressive, I apologise.

Yes, I understand that. What I meant is that if there are links between the two organisations, that they would get involved in a campaign together rather than starting up their own individual campaigns. In the same manner that I'm sure there are plenty of other organisations who have their own specific Venezuelan support groups or campaigns.

Led Zeppelin
11th October 2005, 20:31
Did you even bother reading Kalashnikov1917's previous statement on that?

Yes.


I also would not consider one with Stalin amongst the main authors on his website's list credible either.

Credible on what? Quoting Lenin?

Wanted Man
11th October 2005, 20:56
Yeah, any site that holds works by Stalin is clearly unreliable. :rolleyes:

Anyway, I don't have anything against Trots in general, in fact some of the smartest communists I know are trotskyist. However, some of the stupidest ones I know are also trots, and it's just painful to argue with such people. Their extreme willingness to believe everything the bourgeoisie has to say about Stalin and the likes is disgusting. I remember one of them defending himself about that in that big Stalin thread saying "Well, I don't blindly parrot it, I analyse it!"

Well, if analysis means "Look, The Guardian likes the book by Jung Chang that claims Mao killed 70 million, so Mao killed 70 million!", then I am not an analyst. No matter if they claim they actually make a critical analysis, what you actually hear from them is always the same: "I don't like Stalin, he was an evil dictator who brought only suffering upon his people, you can't deny these facts, if you do, you're on par with Holocaust-denying Nazis!" Any argumentation for this is rarely seen. Allow me to use a conversation I had this very evening with a Trotskyite over MSN. I am using a Gmail address(Google), while he uses Hotmail(Microsoft) which started the discussion.

Him: A real communist act to support google?
Him: then you make a critque?
Me: what about Microsoft?
Him: ha ha ha
Him: Good point
Him: But you think I don't use Linux with MSN protocols?
Me(getting pretty annoyed by now): how the fuck am I supposed to know?
Him: I only use Microsoft for certian things
Me: including such inane things as chatting? Grow up and admit that you can't live, especially not enjoyably, without somehow using the system
Him: You may judge me by your own standards
Me: I really don't care if you have Linux, if you use Hotmail, Microsoft still earns money simply because you view their ads while checking their email
Him: Actually not exactly
Me: who's judging who? You're the one busting in with "OGM U USE GMAIL UR NO TRU COMMIE!111"
Him(making a completely retarded generalisation): Not my point but Stalinists always go for some anarchist complete anti USA fling.
Him: I as a Menshevik disaprove
Me(wtf, a self-proclaimed Leninist Menshevik?): You're a Menshevik? Yeah, makes sense
Him: some American things are intresting Materialistically speaking
Me: not to mention that I'm not a Stalinist, and that "Stalinists" are not "always" anti-USA
Him: Menshevik and Bolshevik as I am a unionsist such as Trotski
Him: Well You are pro Stalin sucm
Him: good day

And then he blocks me, after starting to troll in the first place. That's the kind of shit "Stalinists" have to deal with. I in no way try to claim that all Trots are like this, but it's still the kind of conversation you'd sooner get from a dogmatic(although also rather insecure, wtf is a menshevik trot?) trotskyist.

Axel1917
12th October 2005, 16:44
Originally posted by Marxism-[email protected] 11 2005, 08:12 PM


Yes.

And you obviously did not understand it.


Credible on what? Quoting Lenin?

Are you even aware of the falsification actions of Stalin in such regards?

Poum_1936
13th October 2005, 01:08
Their extreme willingness to believe everything the bourgeoisie has to say about Stalin and the likes is disgusting.

Same could be said about the extreme willingness to support Stalins every wipe of his ass.

But oddly enough, Trotskyists DO USE BOURGEOIS media. But often enough, they USE THE BOURGEOIS MEDIA against itself. By claiming the advances the Soviet Union has made under the planned economy. There have been enough commentators to proclaim the achievements of the planned economy, though they couldnt be more shocked and suprized and couldnt be more firmly against Bolshevism.

Also, there really is no need to use western sources for potraying what happened under Stalin. There are more than enough sources that came from within the USSR that can tell of innumerable amounts of horror's. Plus, the media really doesnt need to lie about anything from the Stalin period, there is more than enough dirt there to begin with. Im not saying that everything the media says about Stalin is stone cold truth, but they dont always pull these things out of their ass.

Led Zeppelin
13th October 2005, 12:44
And you obviously did not understand it.


I did understand it.

When the historical stage of socialism is reached in a given nation the nation in question can not become capitalist again, it cannot become capitalist again because socialism is one historical stage above capitalism, that is like saying that a capitalist nation can become feudal again.

Axel1917
13th October 2005, 17:04
Originally posted by Marxism-[email protected] 13 2005, 12:25 PM

And you obviously did not understand it.


I did understand it.

When the historical stage of socialism is reached in a given nation the nation in question can not become capitalist again, it cannot become capitalist again because socialism is one historical stage above capitalism, that is like saying that a capitalist nation can become feudal again.
I remember Lenin stating that it would take at least several advanced capitalist nations in order for socialism to exist. I will have to dig that up. The nation cannot become capitalist again, but the existence of socialism in that nation is due to the existence of socialism in several advanced nations, therefore undermining the threat of international imperialistic pressues. One nation cannot become socialist on its own. A revolution cannot remain isolated, and the efforts of multiple nations, especially the advanced ones, will be needed to overthrow capitalism in those nations to undermine a united captalitstic imperialist bloc against that nation. We know that the USSR did not last well in isolation, and Stalinist Thermidor paved they way for capitalist counterrevolution in the USSR.

Comrade Poum_1936's statements about the Bourgeois media and how we use it are true. Just look at a good deal of Trotskyist books and articles past and present (some good examples being at marxist.com).

Led Zeppelin
15th October 2005, 00:46
I remember Lenin stating that it would take at least several advanced capitalist nations in order for socialism to exist. I will have to dig that up.

Depends on the size and amount of resources of the nation of course, in the case of the USSR it was possible.


The nation cannot become capitalist again, but the existence of socialism in that nation is due to the existence of socialism in several advanced nations, therefore undermining the threat of international imperialistic pressues.

Not necessarily, the USSR was free from imperialist pressures, actually they were pressuring imperialism by becoming social-imperialist.


One nation cannot become socialist on its own.

It can depending on the size and amount of resources of the nation.


A revolution cannot remain isolated

Yes it can, for a given period of time.


and the efforts of multiple nations, especially the advanced ones, will be needed to overthrow capitalism in those nations to undermine a united captalitstic imperialist bloc against that nation.

The USSR was more powerful than most of the "advanced nations", at one time it was the most powerful nation on earth. (1944-1950)


We know that the USSR did not last well in isolation

Industrialization and becoming the most powerful nation on earth is not "lasting well"? Lets not even talk about the other nations which joined the USSR; China, Korea, eastern-Europe etc.


and Stalinist Thermidor paved they way for capitalist counterrevolution in the USSR.

The USSR was about as much Stalinist under Kruschev as it was Leninist under Stalin.

Scottish_Militant
15th October 2005, 12:49
Principles of Communism - Engels

Will it be possible for this revolution to take place in one country alone?

No. By creating the world market, big industry has already brought all the peoples of the Earth, and especially the civilized peoples, into such close relation with one another that none is independent of what happens to the others.

Further, it has co-ordinated the social development of the civilized countries to such an extent that, in all of them, bourgeoisie and proletariat have become the decisive classes, and the struggle between them the great struggle of the day. It follows that the communist revolution will not merely be a national phenomenon but must take place simultaneously in all civilized countries – that is to say, at least in England, America, France, and Germany.

It will develop in each of the these countries more or less rapidly, according as one country or the other has a more developed industry, greater wealth, a more significant mass of productive forces. Hence, it will go slowest and will meet most obstacles in Germany, most rapidly and with the fewest difficulties in England. It will have a powerful impact on the other countries of the world, and will radically alter the course of development which they have followed up to now, while greatly stepping up its pace.

It is a universal revolution and will, accordingly, have a universal range.

Led Zeppelin
15th October 2005, 17:44
Interesting "Kalashnikov1917", so are you a orthodox Marxist or a Leninist?

You see, I'm a Leninist, that's why my name is Marxism-Leninism.

It would be utopian and un-Marxist to think the transition from Capital to Finance Capital (Capitalism to Imperialism) had no consequences for the revolution and how it would work out.

Poum_1936
15th October 2005, 19:14
Not necessarily, the USSR was free from imperialist pressures, actually they were pressuring imperialism by becoming social-imperialist.

Non-Agression Pact with Hitler. Not to mention this interview with Stalin. Talk about sell out.

Howard: Does this statement of yours mean that the Soviet Union has to any degree abandoned its plans and intentions to bring about a world revolution.
Stalin: We never had any such plans or intentions.
Howard: You appreciate, no doubt Mr Stalin, that much of the world has long entertained a different impression?
Stalin: This is the product of misunderstanding.
Howard: A tragic misunderstanding?
Stalin: No, comic. Or perhaps tragi-comic.

(Roy Howard-Stalin interview, March/April, Communist International, 1936)

"US rightwing forces and propaganda potray our interest in Latin America as an intention to engineer a series of socialist revolutions there. Nonsense! The way we have behaved for decades proves that we dont plan anything of the kind."

-Gorbachov


Industrialization and becoming the most powerful nation on earth is not "lasting well"? Lets not even talk about the other nations which joined the USSR; China, Korea, eastern-Europe etc.

Well... where are they now? "Communism" used to have control of 1/3rd of the world? I dont remember exactly but that comes to mind.

Led Zeppelin
15th October 2005, 21:16
Non-Agression Pact with Hitler. Not to mention this interview with Stalin. Talk about sell out.

Howard: Does this statement of yours mean that the Soviet Union has to any degree abandoned its plans and intentions to bring about a world revolution.
Stalin: We never had any such plans or intentions.
Howard: You appreciate, no doubt Mr Stalin, that much of the world has long entertained a different impression?
Stalin: This is the product of misunderstanding.
Howard: A tragic misunderstanding?
Stalin: No, comic. Or perhaps tragi-comic.

(Roy Howard-Stalin interview, March/April, Communist International, 1936)

"US rightwing forces and propaganda potray our interest in Latin America as an intention to engineer a series of socialist revolutions there. Nonsense! The way we have behaved for decades proves that we dont plan anything of the kind."

-Gorbachov


What does that have to do with anything I said?

Are you denying the fact that the USSR was pressuring US imperialism?


Well... where are they now?

We were not talking about now, we were talking about the past.

Where are the Trotskyists now? Under your bed?

Scottish_Militant
16th October 2005, 13:53
Originally posted by Marxism-[email protected] 15 2005, 05:25 PM
Interesting "Kalashnikov1917", so are you a orthodox Marxist or a Leninist?

You see, I'm a Leninist, that's why my name is Marxism-Leninism.

It would be utopian and un-Marxist to think the transition from Capital to Finance Capital (Capitalism to Imperialism) had no consequences for the revolution and how it would work out.

If one is to understand the global nature of imperialism, then one can understand that capitalism enters global crisis in similar periods, we seldom see isolated booms and slumps confined to separate nation states, thus we can understand the international role of a revolution when it arises, will not be something that happens in isolation.

This is why Engels stressed this point, he was not being “un-Marxist”, just correct.

Led Zeppelin
16th October 2005, 22:27
If one is to understand the global nature of imperialism, then one can understand that capitalism enters global crisis in similar periods, we seldom see isolated booms and slumps confined to separate nation states

Actually we always see isolated booms and slumps confined to seperate nation-states, while the US economy is in a slump the UK economy is in a boom, while the Russian economy collapsed in the 90's the US and western-European economies were booming, while the US and western-European (minus UK) economies are experiencing a slump the Chinese economy is booming like crazy etc.

An economic slump in one nation results in a economic boom in another, that's how the "global market" works.

The continuing slump in 90% of nation-states is what keeps the imperialist powers "running" today.


thus we can understand the international role of a revolution when it arises, will not be something that happens in isolation.

Depends on the nation-state in which it happens, if it's an "important" nation for the imperialist powers it will "hit them hard", if it's a nation like, let's say, any African one, it won't matter at all.


This is why Engels stressed this point, he was not being “un-Marxist”, just correct.

Engels was stressing that point because revolution was only considered to be possible in one of those "important" nations, i.e., advanced capitalist nations.

History proved him wrong, in fact he later "changed his mind", he no longer considered revolution to be only possible in one of those "important" nations:


On October 7, 1858, Engels wrote to Marx: “The English proletariat is actually becoming more and more bourgeois, so that this most bourgeois of all nations is apparently aiming ultimately at the possession of a bourgeois aristocracy and a bourgeois proletariat alongside the bourgeoisie. For a nation which exploits the whole world this is of course to a certain extent justifiable.” Almost a quarter of a century later, in a letter dated August 11, 1881, Engels speaks of the “worst English trade unions which allow themselves to be led by men sold to, or at least paid by, the middle class”. In a letter to Kautsky, dated September 12, 1882, Engels wrote: “You ask me what the English workers think about colonial policy. Well, exactly the same as they think about politics in general. There is no workers’ party here, there are only Conservatives and Liberal-Radicals, and the workers gaily share the feast of England’s monopoly of the world market and the colonies.” (Engels expressed similar ideas in the press in his preface to the second edition of The Condition of the Working Class in England, which appeared in 1892.)

Axel1917
18th October 2005, 16:49
Originally posted by Marxism-[email protected] 15 2005, 12:30 AM

Depends on the size and amount of resources of the nation of course, in the case of the USSR it was possible.


Not necessarily, the USSR was free from imperialist pressures, actually they were pressuring imperialism by becoming social-imperialist.

Free from imperialistic pressures? Are you trying to be a comedian? It was invaded by over 20 foreign armies when it was young!


It can depending on the size and amount of resources of the nation.

Sizes of the resources and such? Those resources did not prevent the USSR from going to a bureaucratic counterrevolution due to the isolation the revolution was in.


Yes it can, for a given period of time.

Then why did Lenin, as previously cited by others, stress the needs for revolutions in advanced nations as well. You read too many Stalinist footnotes. I don't know about the Lenin Selected Works, but the articles and works in the Lenin Collected Works seem fine, but there is a nonsensical Stalinist footnote, introduction, etc. here and there.



The USSR was more powerful than most of the "advanced nations", at one time it was the most powerful nation on earth. (1944-1950)


Industrialization and becoming the most powerful nation on earth is not "lasting well"? Lets not even talk about the other nations which joined the USSR; China, Korea, eastern-Europe etc.

More powerful that most of the advanced nations from 1944-1950? Yes, but it was then already in the state of bureaucratic counterrevolution headed by Stalin. The USSR was not socialist.

As for not lasting well, it did not, for the counterrevolutionary bureaucracy headed by Stalin came to power. They paved the way for Themidor, and now all of the "old crap" is back in Russia.


The USSR was about as much Stalinist under Kruschev as it was Leninist under Stalin.

An aspect of Leninism is anti-Stalinism. Trotskyism is genuine Leninism! Also, I believe that any experienced Marxist will know that Stalinism is not merely restricted to the Stalin regime (just take marxists.org's definition, for instance).

I also will make a citation about Lenin's internationalism:


Lenin's internationalism

The tide of revolution was sweeping throughout Europe. In November 1918, the German Revolution swept away the Hohenzollern dynasty, forcing Kaiser Wilhelm to seek safely in the Netherlands. The revolution put an end to the first world war, as soviets were formed throughout Germany. General Golovin reported on his negotiations with Winston Churchill in May 1919 concerning continued British military intervention as follows: "The question of giving armed support was for him the most difficult one; the reason for this was the opposition of the British working class to armed intervention" Mutinies in the French Fleet off Odessa, and in the other Allied armies, finally sealed the fate of further military expeditions to Russia. In 1920, the dockers of London's East India Docks refused to load the Jolly George with secret munitions for Poland - for use against Soviet Russia.

The British prime minister Lloyd George wrote in a confidential memorandum to Clemenceau at the Versailles Peace Conference: "The whole of Europe is filled with the spirit of revolution. There is a deep sense not only of discontent but of anger and revolt amongst the workmen against prewar conditions. The whole existing order in its political, social and economic aspects is questioned by the masses of the population from one end of Europe to the other." (E.H. Carr, The Bolshevik Revolution, 1917-1923,Vol. 3, pp. 135-6.)

With the cessation of foreign intervention, the Red Army quickly mopped up the remnants of the White armies. The news of revolution in Europe, led the Bolshevik Karl Radek to declare: "The world revolution had come. The mass of the people heard its iron tramp. Our isolation was over." Tragically, this proved premature. The first wave of revolution handed power to the leaders of Social Democracy, who derailed and betrayed the movement. Lenin saw the defeat of the first wave of the European revolution as a terrible blow that served to isolate the Soviet republic for a period. This was no secondary matter, but a matter of life or death for the revolution. Lenin and the Bolsheviks had made it abundantly clear that if the revolution was not spread to the West, they would be doomed. On the 7th March 1918, Lenin weighed up the situation:

"Regarded from the world-historical point of view, there would doubtlessly be no hope of the ultimate victory of our revolution if it were to remain alone, if there were no revolutionary movements in other countries. When the Bolshevik Party tackled the job alone, it did so in the firm conviction that the revolution was maturing in all countries and that in the end - but not at the very beginning - no matter what difficulties we experienced, no matter what defeats were in store for us, the world socialist revolution would come - because it is coming; would mature - because it is maturing and will reach full maturity. I repeat, our salvation from all these difficulties is an all-European revolution." (LCW, Vol. 27, p. 95.)

He then concluded: "At all events, under all conceivable circumstances, if the German Revolution does not come, we are doomed." (LCW, Vol. 27, p. 98.) Weeks later he repeated the same position: "Our backwardness has put us in the front-line, and we shall perish unless we are capable of holding out until we shall receive powerful support from workers who have risen in revolt in other countries." (Ibid., p. 232.)

The main task was to hold on to power for as long as possible. Lenin never envisaged the prolonged isolation of the Soviet state. Either the isolation would be broken or the Soviet regime would be doomed. Everything depended upon the world revolution. Its delay created enormous difficulties that were to have profound consequences. Instead of the withering away of the state, the opposite process took place. On the basis of destitution aggravated by the civil war and economic blockade, the "struggle for individual existence", to use Marx's phrase, did not disappear or soften, but assumed in succeeding years an unheard of ferocity. Rather than building on the foundations of the most advanced capitalism, the Soviet regime was attempting to overcome pre-socialist and pre-capitalist problems. The task became "catch up with Europe and America". This was very far from the "lowest stage of communism" envisaged by Marx. The Bolsheviks were forced to tackle economic and cultural problems that had long ago been solved in the West. Lenin once declared that socialism was "Soviet power plus electrification" to illustrate the basic task at hand.

This was no recipe for a "Russian road to socialism". On the contrary. It was always linked to the perspective of world revolution. Nevertheless, it was an attempt to grapple with the isolation of the workers' state encircled by hostile capitalist powers. This terrible backwardness of Russia, coupled with the isolation of the revolution, began to bear down on the Soviet working class. Civil war, famine and physical exhaustion forced them into political apathy and gave rise to increasing bureaucratic deformations in the state and party. International assistance was vital to ensure the survival of the young Soviet republic. All the Bolsheviks could do was to hold on to power - despite all the odds - for as long as possible until assistance came from the West. "History gives nothing free of cost," wrote Trotsky in 1923. "Having made a reduction on one point - in politics - it makes us pay the more on another - in culture. The more easily (comparatively, of course) did the Russian proletariat pass through the revolutionary crisis, the harder becomes now its socialist constructive work." (Trotsky, Problems of Everyday Life, p. 20.)

It would not be difficult to establish beyond doubt Lenin's position on the necessity for world revolution. Indeed, unless the Soviet state succeeded in breaking out of its isolation, he thought that the October Revolution could not survive for any length of time. This idea is repeated time after time in Lenin's writings and speeches after the Revolution. The following are just a few examples. They could be multiplied at will:

24th January 1918:

"We are far from having completed even the transitional period from capitalism to socialism. We have never cherished the hope that we could finish it without the aid of the international proletariat. We never had any illusions on that score� The final victory of socialism in a single country is of course impossible. Our contingent of workers and peasants which is upholding Soviet power is one of the contingents of the great world army, which at present has been split by the world war, but which is striving for unity� We can now see clearly how far the development of the Revolution will go. The Russian began it - the German, the Frenchman and the Englishman will finish it, and socialism will be victorious." (LCW, Vol. 26, pp. 465-72.)

8th March 1918:

"The Congress considers the only reliable guarantee of the consolidation of the socialist revolution that has been victorious in Russia to be its conversion into a world working-class revolution." (LCW, from Resolution on War and Peace, Vol. 27. p. 119.)

23rd April 1918:

"We shall achieve final victory only when we succeed at last in conclusively smashing international imperialism, which relies on the tremendous strength of its equipment and discipline. But we shall achieve victory only together with all the workers of other countries, of the whole world�" (LCW, Vol. 27, p. 231.)

14th May 1918:

"To wait until the working classes carry out a revolution on an international scale means that everyone will remain suspended in mid-air� It may begin with brilliant success in one country and then go through agonising periods, since final victory is only possible on a world scale, and only by the joint efforts of the workers of all countries." (LCW, Vol. 27, pp. 372-3.)

29th July 1918:

"We never harboured the illusion that the forces of the proletariat and the revolutionary people of any one country, however heroic and however organised and disciplined they might be, could overthrow international imperialism. That can be done only by the joint efforts of the workers of the world� We never deceived ourselves into thinking this could be done by the efforts of one country alone. We knew that our efforts were inevitably leading to a worldwide revolution, and that the war begun by the imperialist governments could not be stopped by the efforts of those governments themselves. It can be stopped only by the efforts of all workers; and when we came to power, our task � was to retain that power, that torch of socialism, so that it might scatter as many sparks as possible to add to the growing flames of socialist revolution." (LCW, Vol. 28, pp. 24-5.)

8th November 1918:

"From the very beginning of the October Revolution, foreign policy and international relations have been the main question facing us. Not merely because from now on all the states of the world are being firmly linked by imperialism into one, dirty, bloody mass, but because the complete victory of the socialist revolution in one country alone is inconceivable and demands the most active co-operation of at least several advanced countries, which do not include Russia� We have never been so near to world proletarian revolution as we are now. We have proved we were not mistaken in banking on world proletarian revolution� Even if they crush one country, they can never crush the world proletarian revolution, they will only add fuel to the flames that will consume them all." (LCW, Vol. 28, pp. 151-64.)

20th November 1918:

"The transformation of our Russian Revolution into a socialist revolution was not a dubious venture but a necessity, for there was no other alternative: Anglo-French and American imperialism will inevitably destroy the independence and freedom of Russia if the world socialist revolution, world Bolshevism, does not triumph." (LCW, Vol. 28, p. 188.)

15th March 1919:

"Complete and final victory on a world scale cannot be achieved in Russia alone; it can be achieved only when the proletariat is victorious in at least all the advanced countries, or, at all events, in some of the largest of the advanced countries. Only then shall we be able to say with absolute confidence that the cause of the proletariat has triumphed, that our first objective - the overthrow of capitalism - has been achieved. We have achieved this objective in one country, and this confronts us with a second task. Since Soviet power has been established, since the bourgeoisie has been overthrown in one country, the second task in to wage the struggle on a world scale, on a different plane, the struggle of the proletarian state surrounded by capitalist states." (LCW, Vol. 29, pp. 151-64.)

5th December 1919:

"Both prior to October and during the October Revolution, we always said that we regard ourselves and can only regard ourselves as one of the contingents of the international proletarian army� We always said that the victory of the socialist revolution therefore, can only be regarded as final when it becomes the victory of the proletariat in at least several advanced countries." (LCW, Vol. 30, pp. 207-8.)

20th November 1920:

"The Mensheviks assert that we are pledged to defeating the world bourgeoisie on our own. We have, however, always said that we are only a single link in the chain of the world revolution, and have never set ourselves the aim of achieving victory by our own means." (LCW, Vol. 31, p. 431.)

End of February 1922:

"But we have not finished building even the foundations of socialist economy and the hostile powers of moribund capitalism can still deprive us of that. We must clearly appreciate this and frankly admit it; for there is nothing more dangerous than illusions� And there is absolutely nothing terrible � in admitting this bitter truth; for we have always urged and reiterated the elementary truth of Marxism - that the joint efforts of the workers of several advanced countries are needed for the victory of socialism." (LCW, Vol. 33, p. 206.)

Lenin's uncompromising internationalism was not the product of sentimental utopianism, but on the contrary, of a realistic appraisal of the situation. Lenin was well aware that the material conditions for socialism did not exist in Russia, but they did exist on a world scale. The world socialist revolution would prevent the revival of those barbarous features of class society which Marx referred to as "all the old crap" by guaranteeing at its inception a higher development than capitalist society. This was the reason why Lenin placed such strong emphasis on the perspective of international revolution, and why he devoted so much time and energy to the building of the Communist International.

Quite rapidly on the basis of a world wide plan of production and a new world division of labour, this would give rise to a mighty impulse to the productive forces. Science and modern technique would be used to harness nature and turn deserts into fertile plains. All the destruction of the planet and the appalling waste of capitalism would be brought to an end. Within a generation or so the material basis for socialism would be laid. Over time, the tremendous growth of production would eliminate all material inequality and provide for a superabundance of things that would universally raise the quality of life to unheard-of levels. All the basic human needs would be satisfied by such a planned world economy. As a consequence, classes would dissolve into society, together with the last vestiges of class society - money and the state. This would give rise to genuine communism and the replacement of the domination of man by man with the "administration of things", to use Engels' expression.

Yet the overthrow of capitalism did not follow this pattern. Rather than the working class coming to power in the advanced industrial countries, the capitalist system was to break, in Lenin's words, "at its weakest link". Weak Russian capitalism paid the price for the bankruptcy of world capitalism. The Russian bourgeois had come on to the historic stage too late and was incapable of carrying through the tasks of the national-democratic revolution, which had been carried through long ago in the West. However, through the law of uneven and combined development (1), foreign capital had established the largest and most modern industries in the cities of Russia, uprooting the peasantry and creating a proletariat virtually over night. This new working class, on the basis of experience, was to look towards the most modern ideas of the workers' movement that reflected its needs - Marxism - and was the first proletariat to carry through the socialist revolution to a conclusion.

The fact that Russia was a backward country would not have been a problem if such a revolution was a prelude to a successful world socialist revolution. That was the aim of the Bolshevik Party under Lenin and Trotsky. Internationalism was no sentimental gesture, but was rooted in the international character of capitalism and the class struggle. In the words of Trotsky: "Socialism is the organisation of a planned and harmonious social production for the satisfaction of human wants. Collective ownership of the means of production is not yet socialism, but only its legal premise. The problem of a socialist society cannot be abstracted from the problem of the productive forces, which at the present stage of human development are worldwide in their very essence." (Trotsky, History of the Russian Revolution, p. 1237.) The October Revolution was regarded as the beginning of the new world socialist order.

-Ted Grant, Russia: From Revolution to Counterrevolution

chebol
18th October 2005, 23:53
Sorry Comrade, but Trotskyism is NOT genuine Leninism. Trotskyism is genuine Trotskyism. Something about two-stage uninterrupted vs permanent revolution springs to mind, amongst other things.
Stalinism however, is not genuine "Leninism" either, and, for what it's worth, Trotskyism shares more in common with Leninism than Stalinism does, but both have their flaws (but at least Trotskyists aren't generally unalloyed Mensheviks).

Axel1917
19th October 2005, 17:29
Originally posted by [email protected] 18 2005, 11:37 PM
Sorry Comrade, but Trotskyism is NOT genuine Leninism. Trotskyism is genuine Trotskyism. Something about two-stage uninterrupted vs permanent revolution springs to mind, amongst other things.
Stalinism however, is not genuine "Leninism" either, and, for what it's worth, Trotskyism shares more in common with Leninism than Stalinism does, but both have their flaws (but at least Trotskyists aren't generally unalloyed Mensheviks).
Lenin did adopt the Theory of Permanent Revolution in his April Thesis. Also, what are these perceived flaws you speak of?

chebol
20th October 2005, 04:48
Marxism mailing list archive
Re: [Marxism] Re: Lenin's 'democratic dictatorship' slogan
From: "Michael Karadjis" <[email protected]>
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 22:53:11 +1000

THE &#39;DEMOCRATIC DICTATORSHIP OF THE PROLETARIAT AND PEASANTRY&#39;, VIETNAM AND
VENEZUELA

I think much of the Trotskyist movement has perpetuated a great historical fiction with the assertion that Lenin "came over" to Trotsky on the permanent revolution in the April Thesis. Both the April Thesis and the actual course of the Russian revolution were far more in conformity with Lenin&#39;s views since 1905.

Simon Kennedy gives a reasonable account of Lenin&#39;s views in 1905:

"It was clear to him, unlike the Mensheviks, that the Russian bourgeoisie did not have the will to establish a &#39;modern&#39; capitalist country. There would be no French-style bourgeois revolution in Russia. So he looked to other forces to do it for them, and came up with the proletariat and peasantry. The bourgeoisie was so weak that the proletariat and peasantry would have to establish a dictatorship to be sure of keeping power."

He then notes that Lenin believed that while the workers would lead the revolution it would be limited to a bourgeois democratic revolution, because workers would need the experience of democracy to organise themselves and because the bourgeois stage cannot be skipped over.

He then claims "Trouble was, it didn&#39;t turn out this way," because "there was no long period of democratic bourgeois republic in 1917 or 1918."

Not there wasn&#39;t a long period, which in fact was most unfortunate, and nothing to do with Lenin&#39;s plans, but rather to do with the intervention of 14 imperialist armies and the sabotage within that situation by the bourgeoisie, forcing Lenin to temporarily (until 1921) proceed much more quickly in Autumn 1918 with the onset of &#39;stage 2&#39;. But first let&#39;s clear up a possible point of confusion:

"The regime installed in February achieved none of the tasks that are associated with the bourgeois revolution, not even the most basic."

Absolutely, that was a bourgeois republic, the type Lenin had been arguing against, and polemicising with the Mensheviks against, since 1905.

"These were addressed after the Bolshevik seizure of power. Indeed the new government went out of its way to avoid any socialist measures."

Absolutely, the new government after October 1917 was the "revolutionary democratic dictatorship of the proletariat and the peasantry" that Lenin had long advocated to complete these tasks, and so Simon is very correct to point out that it "went out of its way to avoid any socialist measures."

For example, in April 1918, when about 3 percent of Russian industry had been nationalised, Lenin called for halt to expropriation of capital. "We have only just started the transition to socialism, we have not yet done the decisive thing in this respect ... (which) is the organization of the strictest and countrywide accounting and control of production and distribution of goods ... we have not yet introduced accounting and control in those enterprises and in those branches and fields of the economy that we have taken away from the bourgeoisie ... if we continue to expropriate capital at the rate at which we have been doing it, we should certainly suffer defeat." He criticised the &#39;Left Communists&#39; who advocated &#39;determined&#39; expropriation, as "the difference between socialisation and simple confiscations is that confiscation can be carried out by &#39;determination&#39; alone, without the ability to calculate and distribute properly, whereas socialisation cannot be brought about without this ability" (&#39;Left-Wing Childishness and the Petty-Bourgeois Mentality&#39;, Collected Works, Volume 27)

Thus Simon points out that the Trotskyist talk of &#39;combining&#39; socialist and bourgeois measures immediately after the seizure of power does not apply to this experience, but claims also that "Lenin&#39;s 1905 notion of a stable democratic state went out the window too."

"Stable." Is that Lenin of 1905? He may have accidentally dropped that word, but it is surely contradicted by the rest of what he wrote in 1905. Following what Simon says on the peasantry in 1918 (I&#39;ll get to that later), he adds: "Now Lenin says &#39;to attempt to raise an artificial Chinese wall&#39;
between the socialist and bourgeois revolutions &#39;means to distort Marxism dreadfully&#39;."

However, it was in * 1905 * that Lenin had already, long ago, claimed that there is "no Chinese wall" between the first, democratic, and second, socialist, stage of the revolution. He did not invent that in 1917 or 1918. Moreover, at that time, 1905, he asserted that the Bolsheviks stand for
"uninterrupted revolution", that the two "stages" of the revolution, while distinct, are connected by ongoing revolutionary development by which the first stage at some point grows over into the second stage. It does not sound very "stable" and it sounds very much like Lenin in the April Thesis or in Autumn 1918. I haven&#39;t got it all in front of me to quote from but anyone reading Lenin in 1905 will find it all.

I must confess that in the old days, before we reassessed these things, I had great trouble trying to figure out what the difference between Lenin&#39;s "uninterrupted revolution" and Trotsky&#39;s "permanent revolution" was, and why the latter was so superior. I now understand the difference was that Lenin&#39;s theory was far superior.

"It is clear from this reasoning that when Lenin used the &#39;democratic dictatorship of the proletariat and peasantry&#39; slogan in 1905 he had a quite different usage to the one of 1917. Unfortunately, he never admitted this, as far as I know."

There was nothing to admit, that&#39;s why he never admitted it. It is even more far-fetched for Trotskyists to assert (which Simon is not doing) that Lenin came over to Trotsky in the April Thesis but never admitted it. He rightly never believed there was any reason to "admit" any such thing.

Simon further claims:

"Indeed Lenin after 1917 begins to explain things very differently. The revolution was bourgeois he explains, only insofar as the working class had to keep an alliance with the whole of the peasantry. This was a tactical consideration. The block was formed in order to peel off the poor peasants from the wealthy ones. He now talks of &#39;a dictatorship of the proletariat and poor peasants&#39;. Very different."

"If the delay is only tactical, a device to realign short-term politics, not an unavoidable stage of historical development, then the thinking behind the 1905 slogan falls. In fact the whole purpose of the slogan, to replace the bourgeoisie as the agent of the bourgeois revolution is pointless. The
seizure of power is in order to move quickly to the socialist reconstruction."

"The immediate aim of the dictatorship is socialism, not a republic. The block with the peasantry is just one of convenience, to win over the poorer layers. As soon as they thought they had sufficient support in the countryside the Bolsheviks introduced socialist changes."

Yes the Bolsheviks did move quicker than they had planned to both to carry out far-reaching nationalisations and to set up "poor peasants&#39; committees" to fight the "kulaks" and begin the "socialist transformation" in the countryside. But does any body really doubt that these measures were forced on the Bolsheviks by the civil war and foreign intervention? Was "war communism" simply the next stage of the revolution, or was it not a near disastrous short-cut forced on them against their better judgement, which had to be partially reversed in 1921? Yes the &#39;stage&#39; was shorter than envisaged, * but that is a bad thing,* the longer it could have been, the better, and the NEP really needs to be brought back into this equation.

The crucial question here is that of the peasantry, as it would be in any country with a big majority peasant population (ie Russia then, China and Vietnam later, Nicaragua in the 1980s, but not so much Cuba 1959-60). What happened to the &#39;kombedy&#39; (poor peasants&#39; committees)?

Despite superficial appearances, not much changed in reality after 1918 in the peasant world, except war-necessitated requisitioning. According to Siegelbaum, (Soviet State and Society between Revolutions, Cambridge Uni Press, 1992, p43-44), the &#39;poor peasant committees&#39; had been a failure; there had been no second stage of the revolution in the countryside. I think this is probably correct, judging both by what happened next and what has happened elsewhere in the world. Peasant society actually has a great deal of resilience. It was highly unlikely that, just following the land reform of late 1917, that capitalism had been unable to take hold, develop productive forces, create social differentiation and provoke rural worker class consciousness for struggle against an agricultural bourgeoisie all in eight months. Whatever grievances poor peasants still had with their rich neighbours, according to Sieglebaum, "they viewed as a family affair (sometimes literally) to be sorted out in the village." He may be exaggerating, but it also rings true of many peasant societies.

Lenin had already given up on these poor peasant committees long before the NEP, instead encouraging peasants to join &#39;artels&#39; (agricultural associations) and &#39;communy&#39;. In 1919 he said of the earlier policies that "we had to hurry ... to make the most desperate efforts ... nothing is more
stupid than the very idea of applying coercion in economic relations with the middle peasant." The "middle peasant became more the core of his economic and political strategy in the countryside, once again, correctly.

And of course in 1921, the NEP fully legalised the peasant market. Of course the Bolsheviks did not reverse the decisive nationalisation of late 1918, even if they had preferred them to have taken place more slowly originally. But what did he say about rural capitalism under the NEP?

Lenin viewed the development of rural and generally petty capitalism under the NEP as positive in Russia&#39;s backward conditions: "This capitalism is essential for the broad masses of the peasantry and for private capital ... We must organise things in such a way as to make possible the customary operation of capitalist economy and capitalist exchange, because it is essential for the people" (Political Report to the 11th Party Congress, Collected Works, vol. 33, p279). This formulation regarding peasant and petty capitalism in the transition era is strikingly similar to what he wrote in 1905.

However, he was aware of the danger of its further development into full-blown capitalism, noting that "small production engenders capitalism and the bourgeoisie continuously" (Left-Wing" Communism, An Infantile Disorder, Chapter II). The task was "to find the correct methods of
directing the development of capitalism into the channels of state capitalism, and to determine how we are to hedge it about with restrictions to ensure its transformation into socialism". One way of doing this was to encourage voluntary cooperatives. However, he had no illusions that this was going to be a rapid process, he believed "a whole historical epoch" of NEP was necessary to organise the basis for socialism (On Cooperatives, 1923).

Thus when we take into account the fact that the Bolsheviks were forced to go faster than planned in 1918, with near disastrous consequences, and we also take into account the NEP (not simply some unique kind of retreat in some unique circumstances as many believe), we understand that the Lenin of 1905, of the April Thesis, of Autumn 1918 and of 1921 were not so different, except that concrete circumstances obviously change.

It is interesting that we have often quoted Lenin in 1918 (in The proletarian Revolution and the Rengade Kautsky) as claiming that things "have turned out exactly as we had predicted", going on to explain the two stages of the revolution, first with "the whole of the peasantry" against the landlords, and at a later stage with the poor peasants against the agricultural bourgeoisie. This surely shows that Lenin did not think he had &#39;gone over&#39; to permanent revolution in April 1917. However, Lenin is not exactly right in saying "exactly", as Simon points out, because it was quicker than expected. In my opinion, Lenin got a little carried away with the forced changes of late 1918, and later, even by 1919, had admitted as much. The reintroduction of rural petty capitalism in 1921 is more appropriately the point at which Lenin could have said "exactly as we had predicted."

What then of Lenin&#39;s formulations in 1905 "a long period of capitalist development" that Simon points to? This does seem unclear at first, or rather abundantly clear that Lenin advocates years of capitalism. Of course, firstly, we need to read Lenin as a whole, and work out how these statements go together with his other statements from the same period, from the same book, about "uninterrupted revolution", of "stages of revolutionary development", of the "growing over" of the first into the second revolution and of there being "no Chinese Wall" between them, in 1905.

I think again the key here is understanding Lenin&#39;s deep concern about the role of the peasant majority, where his writings are far superior to Trotsky&#39;s, and understanding his description of rural capitalism from the time of his Development of Capitalism in Russia. Where he says the
&#39;democratic dictatorship&#39; will open the way for the rapid development of capitalism, he says this capitalism will take the "European" rather than "Asiatic" form. It is unclear what this means, but I think "Asiatic" refers to what was happening in Russia with the consolidation of large holdings as
former feudal lords turn bourgeois, and "European" refers to some idealised western development from the petty production of peasants following a land reform. This is very imprecise to say the least. But to give a clue, elsewhere he writes:

"The pivot of the struggle is the feudal latifundia which are the most conspicuous embodiment and the strongest mainstay of the survivals of serfdom in Russia. The development of commodity production and capitalism will certainly and inevitably put an end to those survivals. In that respect Russia has only one path before her, that of bourgeois development" (thus firstly note that Lenin is referring to Russia&#39;s "bourgeois development" in relation to the countryside).

"But there may be two forms of that development. The survivals of serfdom may fall away either as a result of the transformation of landlord economy or as a result of the abolition of the landlord latifundia, i. e., either by re form or by revolution. Bourgeois development may proceed by having big landlord economies at the head, which will gradually become more and more bourgeois and gradually substitute bourgeois for feudal methods of exploitation. It may also proceed by having small peasant economies at the head, which in a revolutionary way, will remove the "excrescence" of the feudal latifundia from the social organism and then freely develop without them along the path of capitalist economy.

"Those two paths of objectively possible bourgeois development we would call the Prussian path and the American path, respectively."

If we change "European" in 1905 to "American" and "Asiatic" in 1905 to "Prussian" I think we can understand what Lenin is talking about when referring to the &#39;democratic dictatorship&#39; opening the way to the rapid development of &#39;capitalism&#39; in the countryside, ie where the overwhelming majority of the Russian population lived.

Incidentally, what did Lenin say in the April Thesis that has convinced a century of Trotskyists that he had adopted the permanent revolution but simply never admitted it out of vanity? For example, John Saxe asserts that "Lenin&#39;s coming over to Trotsky&#39;s theory represented an important shift, and if it weren&#39;t for Stalinism it would have been an historic shift for revolutionaries throughout the third world to break from the stagist theory." Really? Stalin&#39;s Menshevik stagism of course has nothing to do with Lenin&#39;s stagism, but I&#39;m tempted to say "lucky there was no such historic shift" to sectarian "anti-stagism".

Lenin in April 1917 said the "democratic dictatorship of workers and peasants" had come into being in the form of the Soviets of workers, soldiers and peasants, but that their reformist leaderships were voluntarily ceding power to a bourgeois dictatorship. He therefore called on these Soviets, ie the democratic dictatorship, to take power, ie to establish the "democratic dictatorship of workers and peasants."

Louis also claims that Lenin "never explained in any kind of detail why he decided to publish the April Theses, which effectively overthrew past Bolshevik wisdom (his Central Committee-stuck in the past--voted against them), but this was not really necessary." The fact that a wing of &#39;Old Bolsheviks&#39; in early 1917 interpreted Lenin&#39;s theory in an obviously anti-Leninist way (ie giving support to a * bourgeois * govt, not a workers and peasants dictatorship), says nothing necessarily about the theory. Stalinists claim the entire corpus of Marxism and Leninism, so logically you would have to say all this Marxism and Leninism needs to be thrown out the window based on the logic of these conclusions about what the Old Bolsheviks in early 1917. As Trotsky outlines in his History of the Russian Revolution, much of the &#39;worker-Bolshevik&#39; membership had a very different view from some of these removed leaders.

Ilyenkova claimed that "Trotsky had the benefit, being younger and less tied to those who waged the struggle against Narodnik populism. He was able to generalize from the experience of the 1905 revolution and the emergence of organs of proletarian rule to the thesis that the democratic revolution would, of necessity, be led by the proletariat."

No, Lenin had made abundantly clear in 1905 that the democratic revolution would be led by the proletariat, the difference was whether they would form a government with &#39;the whole of the peasantry&#39; or just with &#39;poor peasants&#39; or &#39;agricultural proletariat&#39; as Trotsky thought, and whether there would of necessity be an extended period of peasant petty capitalism, or whether the
proletariat had to immediately begin trying to institute rural "socialism", a highly idealist notion.

Ilyenkova also states that "we&#39;ve got Bukharin, Trotsky, Preobrazhensky and by extension Parvus and Luxemburg all lining up in support of a general theory of the developmental trajectory of the colonial and semi-colonial sector of the world economy. As the old timers used to say, "With the April Theses Lenin became a Trotskyist and Trotsky became a Leninist."

Lenin certainly did not "become a Trotskyist" but Ilyenkova&#39;s point is that these leaders understood the international nature of the world economy and hence the socialist nature of the world revolution, if I can summarise like that. But surely so did Lenin. He always insisted that there could be no fully developed socialism in backward Russia without socialist revolution in
a number of advanced capitalist countries. He figured that Russia&#39;s democratic revolution would help provoke socialist revolution in the west, and the more successful it was in the west, the greater would be the possibilities for Russia&#39;s revolution to "grow over" into the second stage.
But you cannot force the west to have socialist revolutions; if they do not, to what extent can one backward country proceed to socialist revolution? Even if it could be argued that Russia was, yes, backward, but also highly industrialised in parts, so had some potential to do it alone, as a general
theory for the developing world, &#39;permanent revolution&#39; advocates this disastrous ultraleft course for any poor backward country regardless of socialist revolution in the west.

This in fact is a key contradiction of Trotskyism - the contradiction between carrying out &#39;permanent revolution&#39; even in one country, even in a backward one, and recognition that socialism can only be achieved internationally. It is precisely recognition of the latter that should
restrict the former, unless there is socialist revolution in a number of advanced countries that may be able to help.

But is that fair on Trotsky? Surely he has been maligned enough by ignorant criticism, surely he was not an ultraleftist who did not understand the necessity of proceeding cautiously and in relation to the actual class forces? Surely he did simply advocate nationalise everything the first day after the democratic and socialist revolution rolled into one? No, of course not, Trotsky was an outstanding revolutionary, which is why he went along with all the actual developments of 1917-18, did not advocate forcing the pace earlier than Lenin was forced to, did not oppose NEP etc.

However, it is not Trotsky the revolutionary that is the problem, but "Trotskyism" as interpreted by Trotskyists from some of Trotsky&#39;s less fortunate writings. It may sound ironic, but Trotsky was fantastic, just not very good on permanent revolution.

In Results and Prospects in 1906, he claimed that from the time of taking power, the workers would have to begin provoking rural class war among the peasantry, setting poor against "rich" peasants etc. For anyone familiar with peasant economies in industrially backward countries, this was way off. Such differentiation takes a long time and needs to take its own pace. In many cases, some peasants work for others part of the year while keeping their own land, because they also want the cash. Those they work for may still be miserably poor. Often they may be their relatives. He claimed the mass of peasants would rapidly turn against the workers state and form a counterrevolutionary army. The tiny minority of workers would have to rule in a state of siege, more or less, and if help did not arrive from socialist revolutions abroad, they would be crushed. It was a sure strategy for defeat. I&#39;m not going to pull out quotes, reread &#39;Results and Prospects&#39; and
you&#39;ll find these formulations. Fortunately he forgot about that at least from 1917 to 1927. In the Joint Opposition statement of 1926 there is no mention of such &#39;permanent revolution&#39; while opposing Stalin&#39;s Menshevik policy on China.

Unfortunately, he later claimed that imaginary Chinese "poor peasants" would have to simultaneously fight imaginary "kulaks" (whoever they may be in practice, however one could analyse that from so far away) at the same time as fighting the landlords, foreign imperialists, local capitalists etc, reverting to his worst formulations in Results and Prospects. This ultraleftism led him to initially believe there was something good about the catastrophic Canton workers&#39; uprising as Stalinist Menshevism began evolving into Third Period ultraleftism.

He saw the error of this, but then proceed to give similar bad advice to the Vietnamese Trotskyists. In his &#39;On the Declaration by the Indochinese Oppositionists&#39; in 1930, Trotsky starts out correctly criticising an ultraleft error they are making, as they seemed to be downplaying the
national, agrarian and democratic questions in their pursuit of socialist revolution. He correctly says their statement that "every theory of class collaboration is camouflage for the rule of the capitalist class" provides grounds for misunderstanding, as "there is a certain kind of class
collaboration that we seek after with all our strength: that is the collaboration between the proletariat and the * poor peasantry *, as well as the most oppressed and exploited lower layers of the urban petty bourgeoisie."

Thus to Trotsky, only the "poor peasants" and "most exploited" lower layers of the urban petty bourgeoisie could be allies of the proletariat * in the democratic revolution * in a country as poor, backward and overwhelmingly peasant in social composition as Vietnam. I hope all Trotskyists on the list are able to see this fundamental error Trotsky was making here, whatever their views on the April Thesis.

But is this just an academic difference, between alliance with "poor peasants" and alliance with "the whole of the peasantry"? Not at all. The tragic reality is that not the Trotskyists, but the more Mao-oriented faction of the Vietnamese Communist Party, tried to implement "permanent
revolution", this alliance with only the "poor peasants", in the mid-1950s land reform with near catastrophic consequences before the Ho-Giap wing of the Party were able to end the chaos.

General-Secretary Truong Trinh, backed by Chinese advisors in Vietnam, attempted a power play on the back of the energies unleashed by the land reform. Much of the ultraleft chaos was no doubt due to the real energy of the poorest peasants faced for the first time in their lives with power in their hands. However, the role of the revolutionary party was to channel this and avoid as far as possible Bela Kun or Pol Pot outcomes.

The VCP leadership drew up clear outlines. Only the property of landlords was to be distributed, a temporary alliance was to be made with rich peasants who however would have to give up some of their land, the land of middle peasants would not be touched and a firm alliance would be made with them. While landlords&#39; land would be redistributed, only those who had collaborated with the French would be punished; those who had helped the revolution would not be. Landlords and rich peasants, following redistribution, would still be entitled to an equal plot with everyone else.

This accorded with the realities on the land. It is difficult enough in a situation where everyone is poor to distinguish &#39;poor&#39;, &#39;middle&#39; and &#39;rich&#39; peasants, even if it may seem easy to some revolutionaries in New York or Paris. The categories cut across families. Often young couples have little land but older people have more as they accumulate through life. People often work for each other. Without either "a long period of capitalist development" or a successful gradual, voluntary rural cooperatisation movement, "permanent revolution" in these circumstances is fiction.

However, for ambitious bureaucrats aiming for quick power, or for the Chinese advisors aiming to exert control over their independent-minded Vietnamese Communist neighbours, falsely harnessing the energies of the "most exploited and oppressed" against their fellow exploited and oppressed was a useful strategy. It was precisely the "most oppressed" in rural areas with no possibility of background in revolutionary strategy that were potentially useable. Every single one of the VCP&#39;s regulations were actively violated, ripping rural society apart. In particular, the brutal attack on the middle peasantry (ie, defined as those with enough of their own land to not have to work for others, but also not employing others) caused deep wounds, and in particular struck at the class from which much of the VCP revolutionary leadership had derived from, in particular many were village teachers and other skilled people who were essential to the revolution.

Ho, Giap and others in the leadership continually called for the excesses to end, but it took a year and a half to reassert power. In the meantime, some areas had erupted in uprising against the &#39;land reform&#39; excesses, and protesting peasants even made their way to the National Assembly. Eventually it was brought under control, Truong Trinh was removed from his post, and a &#39;rectification campaign&#39; attempted to restore what could be restored, which unfortunately could not include several thousand lives. Of course it may be said that Ho, Giap and others were after all from better off rural classes and rural intellectuals anyway, so perhaps they were merely defending their "class interests" against the "really oppressed"? Perhaps, but it would be an incredibly short-sighted and stupid argument.

Following the 1975 victory in the south, the VCP initially, like the Bolsheviks in 1917-18, attempted to stem a too rapid nationalisation of everything, as they realised they would lose a whole layer of petty bourgeois experts as well as provoke massive capital flight and the workers would need time to understand how to manage their firms. Like Lenin in April 1918, the VCP even often had to argue against workers who were spontaneously &#39;nationalising&#39; outside the government plan. I know Trotskyists will see this as proof positive of the VCP "Stalinists" "betraying" the workers, but
Lenin did exactly the same in early 1918 and consistency is a virtue. Again, however, like the Bolsheviks, actual events forced the pace. The owners of some 70 percent of capitalist industry had fled in 1975, so the poverty-stricken, shambolic state apparatus emerging out of decades of war was forced to take them all over immediately.

The things got worse as the US, China and Pol Pot&#39;s reactionary clique stepped up pressure on Vietnam. The inability of the poverty-stricken state to pay decent prices for peasant produce allowed the big private traders to monopolise peasant grain surpluses. The VCP launched into a major ultraleftist error, if forced by circumstances, when it &#39;nationalised&#39; domestic trade in the south in 1978, expropriating thousands of large, medium and small private trading concerns. The result was complete chaos, with catastrophic drops in peasant grain deliveries to the state in 1978-79, leading to famine. The problem is, you can&#39;t just &#39;confiscate&#39;. You need something to replace it with. The state at that time was in no position to provide an efficient means of paying peasants or getting deliveries from them, or getting manufactured goods back to the peasants (especially in the context of the arch-treacherous cut-off of Chinese aid, mostly of needed consumer goods, in 1978). The peasants simply stopped either producing or selling to the state at miserable prices; the legal private traders simply transformed themselves into black market private traders and got on with the necessary work. Within a couple of years the VCP saw its error, reopened avenues for private traders while also greatly increasing the state price, and the first half the 1980s saw an agricultural boom.

The changed policies led to the Vietnamese NEP, known as Doi Moi, and since then we have seen in rural areas what Lenin called "this capitalism (which) is essential for the broad masses of the peasantry and for private capital ... We must organise things in such a way as to make possible the customary operation of capitalist economy and capitalist exchange, because it is essential for the people."

Coming to the Vietnamese NEP perhaps opens a whole new though closely related issue, but I just want to explain why I dwelt on the 1978 fiasco. The US SWP, who we were closely following at that time, believed that after 1975, "South Vietnam" was not yet a workers&#39; state even though it fused with North Vietnam. This reminds me of East Germany still being a workers&#39; state 15 years after being fused with imperialist West Germany. Never mind that, their point was that after 1975, not everything was yet nationalised. Fair enough. They called this the "workers and peasants government", which more or less means the "democratic dictatorship of proletariat and peasantry." Fair enough (if we exclude the strange circumstances of it being in the same country as the north Vietnamese workers&#39; state). But the problem is, then you have to look for the crucial "turning point" of when this state turns into a workers state. In Russia it had been Autumn 1917, in China 1952-3, North Vietnam 1958-9, in Cuba August 1960 etc. Fair enough. But therefore they chose the ultraleft decision to nationalise * trading * capital in 1978 as the point at which a workers&#39; state was created, even though most capitalist * industry * had already been taken over in 1975. On the other hand, those other Trots who disagreed with the SWP on this, and who believed a workers&#39; state had been created in 1975 (of course "despite" every possible attempt of the "Stalinists" to allegedly avoid this), while they did not see the same significance of 1978, nevertheless they agreed that these ultraleft measures were a step forward (probably should have happened earlier).

The point here is that even for those who were moving away from &#39;permanent revolution&#39; or at least emphasising a transitional stage (workers and peasants govt), the idea was that it had to be exceedingly short. This was based on the fairly rapid transition in Russia 1917-18, as if this had been the Bolshevik plan and not an unfortunate fact forced on them. Thus when "Stalinist" regimes in China, Vietnam or elsewhere did not immediately set up workers&#39; states, for &#39;permanent revolution&#39; Trotskyists this was evidence of attempted &#39;betrayal&#39;, but then they were forced both by the class struggle on one side and imperialist provocation on the other to come to their senses and institute workers&#39; states. The idea that the transitional periods (China 1949-52/3, Vietnam 1954-58/9, south Vietnam 1975-78) were a good and necessary thing was out of the question (though I don&#39;t know a lot about China, it has been claimed that the Chinese CP in this period
suppressed workers&#39; strikes etc - if so, this obviously was evidence of anti-working class tendencies, but that should be distinguished from a transitional stage in general; I&#39;m not aware of such suppression by the Vietnamese CP).

On the other, for those who recognised these as &#39;workers&#39; and peasants&#39; governments&#39;, it had to be over with quick. The model, apart from Russia, was Cuba, where a rather quick transition took place between January 1959 and August 1960. However, Cuba was largely proletarian at that time; Che points out (I&#39;m paraphrasing from Tablada) that the Cuban economy had been far more &#39;socialised&#39; by monopoly capital than had Russia, which had been dominated by &#39;petty production&#39; when Lenin introduced the NEP, which Che thought was right for Russian conditions but not for Cuban.

This Cuban situation could not be applied to Vietnam, could not be applied to Nicaragua in the 1980s. While we can criticise the Sandinistas for many things, I don&#39;t think a very useful criticism is that they should have proceeded faster to &#39;socialism&#39;. It has been pointed out that they did not
fully carry out the bourgeois-democratic task of redistributing land to all peasants, which may have been a serious error. In a recent post, Jose Perez in fact claimed they were herding peasants into &#39;cooperatives&#39; too quickly, which actually sounds more an ultraleft error than an error of not going fast enough.

I&#39;m not sure of the balance between proletariat and peasantry in Venezuela today, but I think some of the calls on Chavez to hurry up and nationalise everything really are based on this misunderstanding of how important is the building of really solid strategic support in rural areas, which Chavez has been engaged in, without antagonising the local bourgeoisie to a greater
extent than necessary too early when you don&#39;t have the real political resources to fight them, and such political resources surely involve a solid support base in rural areas - even more so in countries where peasants are the vast majority.

Michael Karadjis

Led Zeppelin
20th October 2005, 05:00
Free from imperialistic pressures? Are you trying to be a comedian? It was invaded by over 20 foreign armies when it was young&#33;


I never gave a specific time for when it was free from imperialist pressures, i&#39;d say from 1932 onward, mostly because of the industrialization achieved by the first 5 year plan.


Those resources did not prevent the USSR from going to a bureaucratic counterrevolution due to the isolation the revolution was in.

I would say "revisionism of Leninism" instead of "bureaucratic counterrevolution", but you&#39;re right, the resources did not prevent this from happening, did I ever say they would? No, I said they were sufficient for creating a socialist economy.

This has been proven by history, the first and second 5 year plans industrialized the USSR, i.e., created the possibility of a socialist economy.


Then why did Lenin, as previously cited by others, stress the needs for revolutions in advanced nations as well.

Of course he stressed the need for revolutions in advanced nations, as did Stalin, that doesn&#39;t mean he thought it was impossible for the revolution to be maintained in Russia without them.

I agree with what Lenin said here:

"The development of capitalism proceeds extremely unevenly in the various countries. It cannot be otherwise under the commodity production system. From this, it follows irrefutably that socialism cannot achieve victory simultaneously in all countries. It will achieve victory first in one or several countries, while the others will remain bourgeois or pre-bourgeois for some time." Lenin War programme of the Proletarian Revolution, in: Collected Works, Vol. 29; p. 325

I don&#39;t care what Lenin said before or after this, because this is basically correct in terms of Marxist analysis.


More powerful that most of the advanced nations from 1944-1950? Yes, but it was then already in the state of bureaucratic counterrevolution headed by Stalin. The USSR was not socialist.


Again, I never said it was socialist, I just said it was the most powerful nation.

Why is that important? Becuase it means that if "revisionism of Leninism" did not take hold it would have been the most powerful socialist nation on earth.


As for not lasting well, it did not, for the counterrevolutionary bureaucracy headed by Stalin came to power. They paved the way for Themidor, and now all of the "old crap" is back in Russia.


Lasting well in terms of economic and military might, not lasting well in terms of socialism.

This is important because it means that it could have lasted well economically and military if it was socialist, i.e., being a stable socialist nation.


An aspect of Leninism is anti-Stalinism.

And anti-Trotskyism.


Trotskyism is genuine Leninism&#33;

Not really, Leninism is different from both "Stalinism" and "Trotskyism".


Also, I believe that any experienced Marxist will know that Stalinism is not merely restricted to the Stalin regime (just take marxists.org&#39;s definition, for instance).

Here is where I disagree with Trotskyists, I do not call Kruschev&#39;s regime "Stalinist", I call it "revisionism of Leninism", just as I call Stalin&#39;s regime, that is far more accurate.


also will make a citation about Lenin&#39;s internationalism:

I don&#39;t oppose internationalism, I oppose the notion that if and when revolutions fail in other nations you are doomed to fail as well.

The USSR is a perfect example of this not happening, foreign revolutions failed but it was able to create the material conditions required for socialism.

If the nation had remained Leninist, socialism would have been achieved, you could argue that Stalin&#39;s "revisionism of Leninism" was inevitable, I don&#39;t. (and if I recall correctly neither did Trotsky)

Axel1917
25th October 2005, 16:50
Originally posted by "Marxism&#045;Leninism"
I never gave a specific time for when it was free from imperialist pressures, i&#39;d say from 1932 onward, mostly because of the industrialization achieved by the first 5 year plan.

It was not really free from imperialistic pressures from then on either, given the Nazi invasion and following things like the Truman doctrine. Not to mention the Cold War era.



I would say "revisionism of Leninism" instead of "bureaucratic counterrevolution", but you&#39;re right, the resources did not prevent this from happening, did I ever say they would? No, I said they were sufficient for creating a socialist economy.

The resources were immense, and had the German revolution and others succeeded, capitalism would have probably died long ago. It would have been interesting if a the grip of Stalinism had been broken by the Proletarait, given that the Five Year plans made it an advanced nation, and it would not be isolated in a backward nation.


Of course he stressed the need for revolutions in advanced nations, as did Stalin, that doesn&#39;t mean he thought it was impossible for the revolution to be maintained in Russia without them.


I believe that Lenin had stated that the USSR would be doomed without the German revolution at one time. I can&#39;t remember if I cited that yet or not.


I agree with what Lenin said here:

"The development of capitalism proceeds extremely unevenly in the various countries. It cannot be otherwise under the commodity production system. From this, it follows irrefutably that socialism cannot achieve victory simultaneously in all countries. It will achieve victory first in one or several countries, while the others will remain bourgeois or pre-bourgeois for some time." Lenin War programme of the Proletarian Revolution, in: Collected Works, Vol. 29; p. 325

I don&#39;t care what Lenin said before or after this, because this is basically correct in terms of Marxist analysis.

By victory, he meant the initial overthrow of capitalism, not the transition to socialism being completed as such. I believe that I cited earlier from Ted Grant&#39;s Russia: From Revolution to Counterrevolution to back this up, and Grant cited from various volumes of the LCW to back that up as well. I am not familiar with volume 29, as I don&#39;t have a copy of it yet (I have copies of volumes 5, 7, 14, 23, 28, and 38 at the current moment), but I have heard that in volume 23 he stated a similar thing in the Military Programme of the Proletarian Revolution.


Again, I never said it was socialist, I just said it was the most powerful nation.

Sorry about that. I must have missed that somewhere.


Why is that important? Becuase it means that if "revisionism of Leninism" did not take hold it would have been the most powerful socialist nation on earth.

What do you mean by this "revision of Leninism?" Krushchev&#39;s policies (I once heard that he tried to plant a bunch of corn without seriously analyzing the climate of the area. I think he wanted to feed it to livestock to increase meat production. His lack of knowledge of the area resulted in poor yield of the crop).


Lasting well in terms of economic and military might, not lasting well in terms of socialism.

This is important because it means that it could have lasted well economically and military if it was socialist, i.e., being a stable socialist nation.

If it were socialist, yes, but that would have required revolutions in other advanced nations.


And anti-Trotskyism.

I remember Lenin remarking at one point that Trotsky was the only man he could trust. Leninism is not opposed to Trotskyism; the Stalinists overexaggerated the past conflicts between Trotsky and Lenin to make Trotsky appear to be opposed to Bolshevism. Those conflicts were pretty much resolved with the work Lenin and Trotsky had done together later on.


Not really, Leninism is different from both "Stalinism" and "Trotskyism".

Upon comparing what Lenin had to say with Trotsky, I would not consider the two opposed.


Here is where I disagree with Trotskyists, I do not call Kruschev&#39;s regime "Stalinist", I call it "revisionism of Leninism", just as I call Stalin&#39;s regime, that is far more accurate.

I believe that Stalinism has become a term that defines a wide variety of deformed wokers&#39; states, or when a bureacuratic caste hovers over a workers state, somewhat like how Bourgeois dictatorship covers many aspects of defending capitalist interests (old monarchies, Fascism, Bourgeois Republics, reformism, etc.).


I don&#39;t oppose internationalism, I oppose the notion that if and when revolutions fail in other nations you are doomed to fail as well.

Lenin said otherwise. If the inital foreign revolutions fail, future ones will be needed.



The USSR is a perfect example of this not happening, foreign revolutions failed but it was able to create the material conditions required for socialism.

There were material conditions present, but workers&#39; democracy and foreign revolutions would be needed. I would argue that with workers&#39; democracy and isolation that advanced material condtions could make the nation last much longer, but not indefinitely.


If the nation had remained Leninist, socialism would have been achieved, you could argue that Stalin&#39;s "revisionism of Leninism" was inevitable, I don&#39;t. (and if I recall correctly neither did Trotsky)

Trotsky analyzed the changing of class forces that paved way for Stalin coming to power (I believe that he covered this in his The Revolution Betrayedp.

I am busy, so I will have to get to chebol&#39;s post later.

Led Zeppelin
26th October 2005, 14:58
It was not really free from imperialistic pressures from then on either, given the Nazi invasion and following things like the Truman doctrine. Not to mention the Cold War era.


The USSR was not under Imperialist pressures during the Cold War era, it was as much under pressure as the US was; none.

As for the Nazi invasion, true, I forgot that, it was under Imperialist pressures for about 5-10 years.


I believe that Lenin had stated that the USSR would be doomed without the German revolution at one time. I can&#39;t remember if I cited that yet or not.

Who cares? Even if he did say this, he was wrong, history proved him wrong, the USSR industrialized instead of being "doomed".

I doubt that Lenin was talking about "doomed" in the ideological sense, if he did then he was correct, history has proved this also.


By victory, he meant the initial overthrow of capitalism

True, is that not completely opposed to "permanent revolution"?


What do you mean by this "revision of Leninism?"

What you call "Stalinism", Kruschevism, Brezhnevism etc.


(I once heard that he tried to plant a bunch of corn without seriously analyzing the climate of the area. I think he wanted to feed it to livestock to increase meat production. His lack of knowledge of the area resulted in poor yield of the crop).


True, Kruschev was a moron, and only utter morons support him.


If it were socialist, yes, but that would have required revolutions in other advanced nations.


Why? If I remember correctly the USSR was about twice the size of western-Europe, and was as advanced as western-Europe economically.


I remember Lenin remarking at one point that Trotsky was the only man he could trust.

Bad memory.


Leninism is not opposed to Trotskyism; the Stalinists overexaggerated the past conflicts between Trotsky and Lenin to make Trotsky appear to be opposed to Bolshevism. Those conflicts were pretty much resolved with the work Lenin and Trotsky had done together later on.


No they weren&#39;t, if Trotskyism was the same as Leninism why did Trotsky never oppose the term "Trotskyism"?

Also, Trotskyism has its own specific "theories"; "permanent revolution", "degenerate workers state" etc.


I believe that Stalinism has become a term that defines a wide variety of deformed wokers&#39; states, or when a bureacuratic caste hovers over a workers state, somewhat like how Bourgeois dictatorship covers many aspects of defending capitalist interests (old monarchies, Fascism, Bourgeois Republics, reformism, etc.).

It&#39;s not accurate, the Kuschev regime was anti-"Stalinist", it&#39;s silly to label it "Stalinist".


Lenin said otherwise.

Show me where Lenin said that Russia should just "give up" after the foreign revolutions had failed.


If the inital foreign revolutions fail, future ones will be needed.

I agree, never said otherwise.


There were material conditions present, but workers&#39; democracy and foreign revolutions would be needed. I would argue that with workers&#39; democracy and isolation that advanced material condtions could make the nation last much longer, but not indefinitely.


Who said anything about lasting "indefinitely"? I though that the main purpose of Socialism was Communism?

Poum_1936
27th October 2005, 08:13
QUOTE
Leninism is not opposed to Trotskyism; the Stalinists overexaggerated the past conflicts between Trotsky and Lenin to make Trotsky appear to be opposed to Bolshevism. Those conflicts were pretty much resolved with the work Lenin and Trotsky had done together later on.




No they weren&#39;t, if Trotskyism was the same as Leninism why did Trotsky never oppose the term "Trotskyism"?



Overexaggerated yes. But there were differences between the two which did become heated at times. But the differences were rarely political, often times it was only matter of organizational tasks. All of which later Trotsky adimted his mistakes and faults.

And it was generally the Stalinists who labeled "Trotskyism." The word was used before plenty of times but never as much until after Lenin&#39;s death. But Trotsky and supporters often called themselves the "Bolshevik-Leninists" to distinguish between the trends.

Axel1917
27th October 2005, 16:34
Originally posted by Poum_1936+Oct 27 2005, 07:57 AM--> (Poum_1936 @ Oct 27 2005, 07:57 AM)
QUOTE
Leninism is not opposed to Trotskyism; the Stalinists overexaggerated the past conflicts between Trotsky and Lenin to make Trotsky appear to be opposed to Bolshevism. Those conflicts were pretty much resolved with the work Lenin and Trotsky had done together later on.




No they weren&#39;t, if Trotskyism was the same as Leninism why did Trotsky never oppose the term "Trotskyism"?



Overexaggerated yes. But there were differences between the two which did become heated at times. But the differences were rarely political, often times it was only matter of organizational tasks. All of which later Trotsky adimted his mistakes and faults.

And it was generally the Stalinists who labeled "Trotskyism." The word was used before plenty of times but never as much until after Lenin&#39;s death. But Trotsky and supporters often called themselves the "Bolshevik-Leninists" to distinguish between the trends. [/b]
Yes, there were heated differences and such, but nonetheless, they were not on the scale of "Trotsky&#39;s anti-Leninism" as the Stalinists asserted so very much in their campaign of falsification.

And yes, Trotskyism was originally a term coined by Stalinists; Trotsky used the word in quotation marks when he had to in his works.


"Marxism&#045;Leninism"
The USSR was not under Imperialist pressures during the Cold War era, it was as much under pressure as the US was; none.

As for the Nazi invasion, true, I forgot that, it was under Imperialist pressures for about 5-10 years.

There was immense pressure during the Cold War, particularly when the US provoked the Cuban Missile Crisis.


Who cares? Even if he did say this, he was wrong, history proved him wrong, the USSR industrialized instead of being "doomed".

He meant the revolution, not the industrialization. The old crap resurfaced in Russia.


I doubt that Lenin was talking about "doomed" in the ideological sense, if he did then he was correct, history has proved this also.

The revolution was doomed, and it fell to a bureuacratic stratum headed by Stalin. Lenin never lived to fight his last battle against it.


True, is that not completely opposed to "permanent revolution"?

Not at all, for the October Revolution was capitalism breaking at its weakest link, and previous citations of mine prove that Lenin had stressed internationalism and revolutions in other nations, particularly advanced ones like Germany.


What you call "Stalinism", Kruschevism, Brezhnevism etc.

I see.


True, Kruschev was a moron, and only utter morons support him.

It just showed the lack of correspondence in some areas of produciton in the USSR. I can&#39;t believe that he was allowed to even get away with that. He just made a visit to the US, looked at some farms, and then thought that he could get it to work anywhere.


Why? If I remember correctly the USSR was about twice the size of western-Europe, and was as advanced as western-Europe economically.

Other revolutions in genuine basises would have helped out the overall situation; a genuine revolution would have sent shockwaves that would remind the Soviet people what the October Revolution was all about, allowing them to get ready to eliminate the Stalinist bureaucracy. Advancement also requries workers&#39; democracy to become socialism, something that never existed in Stalinism.


Bad memory.

I do remember it. Perhaps bad memory in regards to me not remembering exactly where he said it.


No they weren&#39;t, if Trotskyism was the same as Leninism why did Trotsky never oppose the term "Trotskyism"?

He did oppose it, and he used qutoations around the word when he had to in his works.


Also, Trotskyism has its own specific "theories"; "permanent revolution", "degenerate workers state" etc.

Permanent Revoltuion - adopted in the April Theses (I will have to get to chebol later on this). As for the overall terminology, it is kind of hard for Lenin to analyze these things and come up with such terms when he is dead. Lenin had made updates to Marxism when Marx and Engels were dead, and Trotsky did the same when Lenin was dead.


It&#39;s not accurate, the Kuschev regime was anti-"Stalinist", it&#39;s silly to label it "Stalinist".

I believe that the MIA still explains this rather well.


Show me where Lenin said that Russia should just "give up" after the foreign revolutions had failed.

He did not say to just give up, but he did say that it would not last in isolation. My previous citations prove this.


I agree, never said otherwise.

Yet socialism cannot exceed on one country. These foreign revolutions, of whose necessity you recognize, are necessary.


Who said anything about lasting "indefinitely"? I though that the main purpose of Socialism was Communism?

Sorry about that, for my post there was poorly worded. I meant that it would sooner or later go toward Thermidor without foreign revolutions.

gilhyle
31st October 2005, 19:01
Reading through this thread a few points strike me:

1. there was a difference between Lenin and Trotsky around the issue of the &#39;democratic dictatorship of the proleatariat and the peasantry&#39;. Trotsky wrote extensively on how their views were IN SUBSTANCE similar in a period of revolution and this was probably true. But when you see the Barnesite SWP in the States turning back to a neo-Leninist formulation in a different period, then you can see the difference in methodology between them.

2. it seems to me far too easy to say the USSR industrialized as if this was something that just magically happened. The price of industrialization was the forced collectivization of the peasantry and the complete political isolation of the State from the society on which it was based. This price was almost doomed to be too high. As Molotov plainly put the point in his audio interview around 1960, this process allowed the State to survive, on the basis of extreme internal brutality. Had that process stabilized the USSR one might have had some sympathy for it, but those (like Trotsky) who argued at the time that the USSR could not be built on this basis were proved correct. THat Kruschchev and then Brezhnev re-based that State on the bureaucracy seems like a point of very limited political significance.

3. Trotsky needs to be differentiated from those who made up his supporters. Whether one looks inside the USSR to people like Preobrazhensky from the ultra-left of the party who rallied around Trotsky or those in Western Europe and North America who did so, it is clear that Trotsky built his political base on an ultra-left from whom he was methodologically alienated. His last 12 years are characterised by endless correspondence with and articles for a political current which acted in his name but with which he had fundamental differences of method and who then broke with his approach as soon as they could after he died.

4. Trotsky suffered from schematism all his life. From his earliest writings he attempted to draw immediate political conclusions from his understanding of the epoch and the influence of Lenin on him was very positive in this regard.

5. I wonder if your memory of Lenin&#39;s positive remarks about Trotsky is a memory of his testament ?

6. If one tries to excavate the elements of Trotsky&#39;s policy for the USSR as articulated between 1924-27, it is a policy of NEP with expanded extraction from the peasantry to finance light industrial development. It is not (like Stalin) a policy of forced collectivization to finance heavy industrial development, nor, like Bukharin at that time, a policy of limiting industrial development to what was compatable with the promotion of peasant prosperity. But it was, like both Stalin and Bukharin, a policy of survival under seige, waiting for another day. That basis perspective suffused the whole of the Soviet leadership.

7. What fundamentally differentiates Trotsky and Stalin was that Stalin was happy to use the international communist movement to support the survival of the USSR and where that conflicted with class struggle in other countries to sacrifice that unequivocally - e.g. Spain. Trotsky was not willing to go that far and I suspect Bukharin would not have done so either.

urben
8th November 2005, 06:35
Originally posted by Marxism&#045;[email protected] 26 2005, 01:58 PM

The USSR was not under Imperialist pressures during the Cold War era, it was as much under pressure as the US was; none.
I don&#39;t know if you declare yourself a Maoist or simply "anti-revisionist," but whichever it is, I find this analysis puzzling. Why can&#39;t the two systems (or "superpowers" if I were to anticipate your terms) pressure each other? Capitalism is always pressured by its own internal laws for imperial conquest. Socialist states require allies in that fight against world capitalism. Both, in my opinion, must ultimately be expansionist to survive. They inevitably will pressure each other (no matter how industrialized they become).

The early 1960s Maoist rejection of "peaceful coexistence" (found in such nuanced and useful documents such as "The Differences Between Comrade Togliatti and Us") focused on the inherent pressures and struggle between the two systems. How did the ascendancy of Khruschevite revisionism (which, I agree, is distinct from Stalinist revisionism in a few ways) simply do a way with those inherent pressures? Without denying the interrelationship between base and superstructure, how does ideological revisionism automatically translate into counter-revolution? How was the base of the country transformed? And how, after 10 years of fraternal criticism (like in the document that I mentioned above), did these anti-revisionists suddenly realize that a counterrevolution had taken place in 1953, ten years prior?

And if the USSR lapsed into capitalism, and the Cold War was simply a struggle between capitalist states, why is it that the rest of the capitalist states in Western Europe formed a united front against the USSR? Is there no class character of the political struggle that we call the Cold War? The traditional Maoist "revisionism = social-imperialism" position just doesn&#39;t add up.

In an earlier post, you said socialist states cannot fall back into capitalism, any more than a capitalist state can fall back into feudalism. (If I understand you correctly, states moving towards socialism can fall back into capitalism). This seems to be somewhat off.

First of all, capitalism represents a revolution in the mode of production. You are quite correct that barring some natural disaster, or massive devastation, countries cannot simply go backwards to earlier stages. Socialism, however, is not a revolution in the mode of production. Socialism operates still with an industrial, technological base. It is ultimately a revolution in distribution, not production. The planned economy, which characterizes the socialist economy, rearranges the capitalist mode of production to overcome distortions, and make up for remaining scarcity of essential goods, but planning - as a policy carried out by individuals in the law - can be reversed.

Your statement seems to assume the impossibility of counterrevolution in a socialist state. Why then should socialist states have a state, if the state represents the necessary bodies of organized violence?

I generally believe that socialism in one country is impossible (considering the massive distortions that military spending requires on the economy). I too am working off the assumption of a hostile and threatening capitalist orbit - on a purely economic basis, however, and barring those military distortions, the USSR certainly had the resources and development to make a run at eliminating scarcity.

As you&#39;ve pointed out, conflicting quotes from Lenin can be found on this issue. But for the most part, belief in the German revolution was engrained in all his thinking. With that said, Lenin didn&#39;t just throw up his hands after the failed German revolution. Without any illusions about the difficulties facing the country, he still tried to build socialism in one country, while attempting to foster revolutionary currents elsewhere. In my opinion, that is the crux of the issue - how do these various theories orient a party towards revolutionary currents in other countries?

The problem with "socialism in one country" as a theory is not that it&#39;s a good or bad reading of Lenin (which we can debate about all day long), but that in periods of reaction - ebbs in the revolutionary movement - this theory crystallizes into "peaceful coexistence" (Khrushev&#39;s defining theory). In this regard, I believe Stalin and Khruschev were interrelated. It was no mistake that the latter followed the former. "Socialism in one country" as an official Marxist theory leads to "peaceful coexistence" just as surely as "no revolution but international revolution" leads to a eurocentric rejection of Third World revolutionary movements.

I support every country&#39;s attempt to move towards socialism whenever they can. Who am I to tell Cuba to wait for the U.S.? I also defend every socialist/worker state&#39;s rights to practice diplomacy with imperialist states, and be tactical about how and when they go on the offensive. Yes, the process of international revolution is uneven, but an embrace of that unevenness - the position of the official Communist Parties for instance- often leads to an accomodation with social-democracy.

I&#39;d be interested in your reply.

Led Zeppelin
19th November 2005, 02:30
Sorry for the late reply, I was busy.


There was immense pressure during the Cold War, particularly when the US provoked the Cuban Missile Crisis.

The USSR was never under threat of a US invasion, Cuba was.

If the US did invade the USSR the world would have been destroyed, or at least the US and USSR would have been, so both nations were under equal pressure from each other. Since neither the US nor the USSR wanted to risk nuclear war I&#39;d say they were both under no pressure at all, that is the pressure of invasion from each other.


He meant the revolution, not the industrialization.

The success of the revolution was dependant on material conditions, i.e., industrialization.


The revolution was doomed, and it fell to a bureuacratic stratum headed by Stalin. Lenin never lived to fight his last battle against it.


No the revolution was not doomed, this is proven by the fact that the material conditions of Socialism were attained.

Might I add that Trotsky also did not consider the revolution to be "doomed".


Not at all, for the October Revolution was capitalism breaking at its weakest link, and previous citations of mine prove that Lenin had stressed internationalism and revolutions in other nations, particularly advanced ones like Germany.


I never said he didn&#39;t "stress internationalism and revolutions in other nations and particularly advanced ones like Germany", but so did Stalin:

"The final victory of socialism in the first country to emancipate itself is impossible without the combined efforts of the proletarians of several countries, and the unfolding of the world revolution will be the more rapid and thorough, the more effective the assistance rendered by the first socialist country to the workers and laboring masses of all other countries." Stalin

And so did Trotsky, well isn&#39;t that a mystery, all three of them "stressed" the same thing&#33;


Other revolutions in genuine basises would have helped out the overall situation

Of course it would have, but that was not the question, my question was why according to you it was required for those nations to become Socialist as well for the USSR to achieve Socialism.


As for the overall terminology, it is kind of hard for Lenin to analyze these things and come up with such terms when he is dead.

True, that&#39;s why we have a "thing" called Leninism, which is different from Marxism, since it has its own features, of course we Leninists know that Lenin used Marxism to get those "new features".

But this is not the case with Trotsky, he did not use Leninism to get to his "new features", at least he did not do so in my opinion.


He did not say to just give up, but he did say that it would not last in isolation.

And so did Stalin, I still don&#39;t see what your point is.


Yet socialism cannot exceed on one country. These foreign revolutions, of whose necessity you recognize, are necessary.


I think you meant succeed instead of "exceed".

"These" foreign revolutions are required to achieve Socialism globally, and to eventually progress to Communism, but "these" foreign revolutions are not necessary to achieve Socialism in one nation, that is, in one nation which is advanced enough economically to sustain itself.


Why can&#39;t the two systems (or "superpowers" if I were to anticipate your terms) pressure each other?

Depends on what kind of pressure you are talking about of course, we were talking about Imperialist pressure, which to my understanding is foreign invasion.

The reason they couldn&#39;t pressure each other in that way is because if they did both nations would have been wiped off the face of the planet.

I will respond to the rest later.

Lev
22nd November 2005, 01:16
stalinist&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;

Oh my lord this is truly daft deterministic nonsense


The success of the revolution was dependant on material conditions, i.e., industrialization

yes indeed, but material conditions do not make a revolutiona alone fo they&#33;


No the revolution was not doomed, this is proven by the fact that the material conditions of Socialism were attained.

Might I add that Trotsky also did not consider the revolution to be "doomed".


Hmmm.... still theres nothing of substance here. I think any sensible analysis would suggest that the material conditions for socialism existed not only in Russia in 1917 but also in Britian why say now&#33;

But being an industialised nation and having the material conditions for socialism is actually just a feature of capitalism&#33;&#33; not a definition of socialism in any way.

Also whilst Stalin as every other Bolshevik say the international implecations of the revolution initially it was Stalin who decisively broke from this view.

Socialism in one country is the doctraine of a rising beaurocratic elite whom saw the immediate needs of the USSR as competing with the west and raising the competitivity of the USSR to the same level of the US and West. This capitalistic dynamic lead the soviet union to invest to accumulate and ignore the material needs of it populace. Famines are just one example of the Soviet Union under stalin acting under the motivation to reinvest surplus to compete international in the market.

The idea that this represents socialism is stupid and barborous. Whilst revolution is an international movement so is counter-revolution and Stalin and the beauractic deformation of the workers state created a demand economy which organised as an enourmous state-capital block that competed on the world market, bludgeoned new markets open with blatant imperialist methods etc. etc.

The one super duper question I want you to answer Stalin-boy is how, if socialism is the sel-emancipation of the working-class (as marx said) can it be that Socialism was exported militarily throughout eastern europe, without a revolution, without the workers rising and creating their own institutions how can socialism be established. If the model which the USSR represented after the second world war can simply be exported without social upheaval and the democratic reconstitution of society how can it be "self-emancipation"??

If you no longer need the working class to create socialism but merely a military and beauracratic elite who can represent the class who can liberate the people on behalf of the people (by reorganising society from above) what is the role of the working class in socialism? What indeed is the point of socialism.

The USSR was a giant fucking lie.

It wasnt a voluntary union, as the hungarian uprising in the 50&#39;s and the prague spring og the 60&#39;s showed and it wasn&#39;t socialist, it didn&#39;t organise the economy in the interests of the people but the people in the interests of the economy, it had no meanigful soviets (with only one candidate per election and one party of course and sometimes candidates recieving more than 100% in elections&#33;&#33;&#33;) and their certainly weren&#39;t any republics, only subordinate satellites to a motherland centre of accumulation just as the previous tsrarist empire.

death to stalinism&#33;

long live lev bronstein

viva le revolution
22nd November 2005, 02:06
"I believe that Lenin had stated that the USSR would be doomed without the German revolution at one time. I can&#39;t remember if I cited that yet or not. "

No, that was trotsky.

Led Zeppelin
22nd November 2005, 07:59
stalinist&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;

Are you 12 years old?


yes indeed, but material conditions do not make a revolutiona alone fo they&#33;

I didn&#39;t say material conditions "made" the revolution, I said the success of the revolution was dependent on material conditions.


Hmmm.... still theres nothing of substance here. I think any sensible analysis would suggest that the material conditions for socialism existed not only in Russia in 1917 but also in Britian why say now&#33;


What on earth are you talking about? Can you please read the posts before you reply to them? I don&#39;t want to repeat what I said earlier in the thread.

Any analysis which suggests that the material conditions for Socialism existed in Russia 1917 is anything but "sensible".

Maybe you were being sarcastic, I hope you were, in that case, I never said that the material conditions for Socialism existed in 1917 Russia, I said they were attained after the two 5 year plans.


But being an industialised nation and having the material conditions for socialism is actually just a feature of capitalism&#33;&#33; not a definition of socialism in any way.


Ok, so a nation which is not industrialized and thus "has" a minority proletariat can be Socialist?


Famines are just one example of the Soviet Union under stalin acting under the motivation to reinvest surplus to compete international in the market.


Rewriting history huh?

The famines were caused by the collectivization, the USSR didn&#39;t even compete in the international market (at least not in the Capitalist sense of the word, surplus wheat was sold, but instead of selling wheat they actually bought wheat during the famines), so I have no clue what you are talking about, you just basically made that up.


The one super duper question I want you to answer Stalin-boy is how, if socialism is the sel-emancipation of the working-class (as marx said) can it be that Socialism was exported militarily throughout eastern europe, without a revolution, without the workers rising and creating their own institutions how can socialism be established.

I never even said the USSR was Socialist after 1929, so again, what are you talking about?


If the model which the USSR represented after the second world war can simply be exported without social upheaval and the democratic reconstitution of society how can it be "self-

Well, although I never claimed the USSR was Socialist post-1929 in this thread, I have to say that if it was Socialist, exporting it military could have and would have worked, Marx said that Socialism is the self-emancipation of the working class, obviously if the USSR was Socialist and therefore a workers state, exporting the revolution military would have been "self-emancipation of the working class", unless Marx meant to say that Socialism is the self-emancipation of the working class of a nation-state.

I don&#39;t think so.


If you no longer need the working class to create socialism but merely a military and beauracratic elite who can represent the class who can liberate the people on behalf of the people (by reorganising society from above) what is the role of the working class in socialism?

The USSR was not Socialist when it did as such.


It wasnt a voluntary union

No shit.


it didn&#39;t organise the economy in the interests of the people but the people in the interests of the economy

That&#39;s not true, although the USSR was not Socialist in political terms, it was Socialist in terms of economics, until at least 1956.

Lev
23rd November 2005, 01:16
What do you mean am I 12?

How is that relevant anyway?

Is this your way of dodging the definition of stalinist perhaps?

Your response deserves a mature discussion so I will attempt to engage.

you say


I didn&#39;t say material conditions "made" the revolution, I said the success of the revolution was dependent on material conditions.

this is quite a useless distinction, it evades the actual issue here. Claiming that the revolution is "dependent on material conditions" is completely wrong. If a revolution is merely dependent on material conditions then exactly the same question arises? Is revolution and socialism just something that arives at a specific point in the development in capitalism or the success of a revolution reliant on more subjective factors?

The possiblity of socialism the material conditions for revolution are things that have to be considered from the point of view of a communist. If we go back to the manifesto:

"Communists are distinguished from the other working-class parties by this only:

(1) In the national struggles of the proletarians of the different countries, they point out and bring to the front the common interests of the entire proletariat, independently of all nationality.

(2) In the various stages of development which the struggle of the working class against the bourgeoisie has to pass through, they always and everywhere represent the interests of the movement as a whole."

Point 1 is what I want to discuss, from this internationalist standpoint the proletariat is clearly in a position of strength at the point of 1917, from 1905 in Russia to 1917 in russia again and also 1918-1923 in Germany, 1918-1919 in Italy and 1919 in Great Britain Europe was experiencing major revolutionary upheavals and on the proletariat were on the brink of taking the productive forces of capitalism under their control.

And that I believe should be the measure of socialism, whether the productive capacity of society is in the hands of the workers. Socialism is not simply an economic model otherwise it could simply be introduced through current parliamentary power structures&#33;

Trotsky and Lenin&#39;s understanding by 1917 was that internationally the proletariat was attaining political power I agree with you "marxism is not the self-emancipation of the proletariat of a nation state" but oddly you dont logically follow apply this statement yourself.

Trotsky contributions on "Combined and Uneven development" shows how whilst the countryside may linger in feudal relations of production the cities were home to a strong proletariat in some of the largest workplaces in the world. I believe the putilov works in 1917 had 12,000 workers in it. The fact that the industrial working class in Russia existed, its political consciousness is undoubtable. This is the most sensible and truthfull appraisal of the situation.

The russian proletariat invented the soviet, the multi party workers council which ran the day to day realities of the mass strike in petrograd in 1905. It was the Russian proletariat who first stumbled across the organ of workers power? How could they do this if the material conditions weren&#39;t their?

Workers councils are still relevant today, the el-alto commune is a workers and peasants council run (without any parties) but follows a similar model. The russian model of struggle was so relevant that in germany a year later in the most advanced capitalist nation in the world (which clearly had an overwhelming majority of wage-labourers) the soviet or workers council was the democratic organ created there too.


I know u sed that the 5 year plans created the material conditions for the 5 year plans but the point I was making is that revolution is not made merely by counting and weighing the proportion of workers to peasants in one particular nation. Socialism is not merely this economic formulation that requires x number of workers and z number of peasants to operate. The working class has to take power, keep power, and organise the surplus created by society through appropriate organs of workers power. No such organs existed at the time of the 5 year plans so whether there were the right amount of workers in industry is neither here nor there.

I thought it was quite clear from what you wrote that you considered the USSR socialist. Sorry, did I misrepresent u???

no
you write

[/QUOTE]I never even said the USSR was Socialist after 1929, so again, what are you talking about?


but then here u write

although I never claimed the USSR was Socialist post-1929 in this thread, I have to say that if it was Socialist


hmmm....

U also claim that socialism can be attained by military intervention by a workers state&#33; I raise my question again. WHere then is the role of the international proletariat in freeing themselves from the chains of oppression? Your claim is that socialism can be brought from top down by armed force and that socialism doesn&#39;t actually require a revolution&#33;

Lenin and Trotsky never argued for exporting the revolutionary military&#33; That was never how socialism was to be attained. It has to be grasped by the proletariat of the national state as part of the international movement. The principle enemy of any proletarian is the bourgoisie of their own state but the success of revolution requires an international movement.

"That&#39;s not true, although the USSR was not Socialist in political terms, it was Socialist in terms of economics, until at least 1956"[QUOTE]
thats odd, I always thought that the absolute distinction bewteen the economic and the political was a bourgois concept? anyway.

what do you mean socialist in terms of economics? the only justification can be the existence of nationalised industry? however this is also true of British and American capitalism after the second world war. The arms industry in particular was a national, British industry was extensively nationalised. The fact that the state organised the economy in eastern europe and the USSR doesn&#39;t mean that it was economically socialism Engels argues as early as Socialism Utopian and Scientific that at certain points the state is forced to take a hand in the organisation of the economy due to the logic of capitalism concentrating wealth into fewer hands, creating monopolies, trusts and joint stock companies. But he argues that this is not by definition a socialist state. For marxists socialism should be the control of the economic and the political, by ordinary people, and from below.

I agree collectivisation caused the famine. But you dont say what collectivisation is.
Collectivisation included the expropriation of the peasantry, the whole point of collectivisation was for stalin to acquire grain to trade in order to reinvest into industry. It was a revolutionising of the means of producing grain, but one from above, one that caused the famine, and the reason why this happened was the drive to compete.We must make good this gap in 10 years time or be crushed etc.

The famine shows one aspect of the subordination of consumption to accumulation, of workers to the means of production. The grain, food to stave off famine existed but the logic of russian state was to sell grain on the international market in order to re-invest in the means of production. I think this is the classic crisis of overproduction and the nature of the stalinist state is shown in its actuality.

The 5-year plans were not to create a warm recieving condition for socialism but where to coordinate the soviet economy towards competition with the west, centered around the arms build up.

I am curius how did the Soviet Union engage in non-capitalistic trade on the internaional market?

Lev
23rd November 2005, 01:31
U say Trotskyism has its own theories like "permenat revolution" even though lenin accepted this anaylsis too? Almost as a trade trostky came to accept the revolutionary party and Lenin came to accept permanent revolution before 1917.

Given that Lenin was the one who said "ours is a workers state with serious beaurocratic deformations" it is unusual to claim that a "deformed workers state" theory means that Leninism and Trotskyism are inherently opposite and different ideologies. Given that lenin was dead when most of trotsky&#39;s writings on the matter were published and distributed I dont think lenin had good enough chance to decide on the exact ins and outs of it....

They are part of the classical marxist tradition i believe, they both contributed brilliantly to the tradition, as did Luxemburg

Led Zeppelin
24th November 2005, 10:29
I PM&#39;ed "Lev" yesterday asking him to fix his post before I would reply to it, he still hasn&#39;t done it so I guess I have to wait for a little while longer.

When he fixes his post I will edit this one and reply to him.