Transexuality

[Master Che]

How does everyone think about Transexual people? Do you think its wrong to pretend your someone that your not? Should you just stay the way you are and except it?

I'm quite unsure about this subject, because I have a friend who believes 100% that he was meant to be born female. And after talking to him for awhile, I've learnt a few things. But i believe its not worth the effort, since your not really going to become the opposite sex.

I just think though, you're born either male or female. And you shouldn't really question it, just enjoy life the best you can and not make it anymore complicated than it already is.

[Gnosis]

I know a man who thinks he is a woman.
He is going to have an operation.
I wouldn't do that, but I wouldn't stop him.
I asked him if I could look at his new vagina when he gets it so that I could compare it to my own.
I don't remember if he agreed.
I don't think it will feel the same as a "real" one.
But he is ashamed of his penis and wants it cut off, and there's a doctor willing to do it, so what i there to stop him?
The only person he'll ever have to answer to is himself anyway...

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

I personally think it's rather silly, but if people want to have themselves cut up over it, it's their choice.

[KC]

Who cares?

[rioters bloc]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2005, 07:59 AM
How does everyone think about Transexual people? Do you think its wrong to pretend your someone that your not? Should you just stay the way you are and except it?
yes, it's wrong to pretend you're someone you're not. that's why some people become transexual. because they feel that they are simply 'pretending' to be male or female when they actually FEEL that they are the opposite


I just think though, you're born either male or female. And you shouldn't really question it, just enjoy life the best you can and not make it anymore complicated than it already is.

question everything. especially 'reality'. complacency is not an option.

[Commie Rat]

It is the induviduals choice on what to do with their body
black and white

[Black Dagger]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2005, 05:36 PM
I personally think it's rather silly, but if people want to have themselves cut up over it, it's their choice.
What's silly about it? And i agree, of course it's their choice, sexuality is not something that should be about conformity/orthodoxy. As a communist, i don't think this should be an issue in the sense that we should be 'concerned' about 'this trend' or how ever conservatives might phrase it. The only thing we should 'worry' about in this context is how transexual/transgender people are being treated in society, and in the communist movement. Sexual liberation is an important part of the social revolution that society must undertake in order to establish a truely communist society.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

What's silly about it?

Guy, that's my opinion and if you don't like it, hard cheese.

The thing is, when you've had the surgery etc you're not a man or a woman, but some sort of hideous in-between. You're still the sex you were, but with some bits added/removed. And IIRC you have to take hormones for the rest of your life.
But if it makes them happy, let 'em have it. It's just not for me.


The only thing we should 'worry' about in this context is how transexual/transgender people are being treated in society, and in the communist movement. Sexual liberation is an important part of the social revolution that society must undertake in order to establish a truely communist society.

Well I'm not stopping them from what they want, and quite frankly I don't care to.

[Elect Marx]

Originally posted by URSB_Revolution+Oct 2 2005, 03:59 PM--> (URSB_Revolution @ Oct 2 2005, 03:59 PM) How does everyone think about Transexual people? Do you think its wrong to pretend your someone that your not? Should you just stay the way you are and except it? [/b]
I am not really sure where this impulse comes from but like bisexuals choosing male or female partners, it realty doesn't matter.
I would only want to ensure that people know what they are getting into; I've heard the operations cost about $100,000 in total, maybe not including hormones, painkillers, I am not sure but certainly there would be a great deal of pain involved. I recall a man on a medical show talking about how he accidentally got breast implants ( :o !) and he said it was like having a car on his chest.


I'm quite unsure about this subject, because I have a friend who believes 100% that he was meant to be born female. And after talking to him for awhile, I've learnt a few things. But i believe its not worth the effort, since your not really going to become the opposite sex.

I have put a little thought into this issue and I cannot say whether this is psychological or chemical. Certainly there are hormones that come into play here, as this is how sexuality works but I do also question whether this is to fit into gender roles assigned by our society. I for one don't feel particularly male, I am male and I have never been female, so this is all quite abstract if inane to me.
I would suggest this rather comes down to a particular question: If you could switch sexes, would you? Now this really isn't possible and I for one am settled as I am but that is not to say that my all consuming curiosity about the human condition doesn't drive me to wonder what differences exist between the sexes.


I just think though, you're born either male or female. And you shouldn't really question it, just enjoy life the best you can and not make it anymore complicated than it already is.

I do theorize that if we had less gender stigma in our society, people might feel less compelled to have an operation but I am not them, so I cannot say for certain and this might even differ between individuals.
As others have said though; your body is your body, do with it what you will and hopefully you'll be comfortable.


Originally posted by [email protected]
I know a man who thinks he is a woman.
He is going to have an operation.
I wouldn't do that, but I wouldn't stop him.
I asked him if I could look at his new vagina when he gets it so that I could compare it to my own.
I don't remember if he agreed.
I don't think it will feel the same as a "real" one.
But he is ashamed of his penis and wants it cut off, and there's a doctor willing to do it, so what i there to stop him?
The only person he'll ever have to answer to is himself anyway...

He shouldn't be ashamed of what he is, now I am sure that isn't healthy or natural.
That said; a "sex change" operation involves basically disassembling the penis. The erectile tissue is removed and the skin is inverted, saving and relocating areas of high nerve concentration.
You are right that a "sex change" can never give properties of a vagina. Though women vary from person to person... they are all different, where men are rather similar, at least nerve concentration.
I only hope in the future, with cellular research, we can actually perform genuine sex changes. With that sort of ability, we can help people injured or scared by horrid religious practices :angry:
If he is willing to submit himself to the operation, I think he is very dedicated.


rioters bloc
yes, it's wrong to pretend you're someone you're not. that's why some people become transexual. because they feel that they are simply 'pretending' to be male or female when they actually FEEL that they are the opposite

Yes and this begs the question of where these feelings come from. What makes someone "feel" as if they are in the wrong body? Personally, I don't feel I am right or wrong in my body, I just am.

[Black Dagger]

Guy, that's my opinion and if you don't like it, hard cheese.

It was the 'silly' that i picked up on, it's not called for/justified/fair IMO.



The thing is, when you've had the surgery etc you're not a man or a woman, but some sort of hideous in-between.

'Hideous'? :/


But if it makes them happy, let 'em have it. It's just not for me.

I understand, but that is a very indifferent attitude, it's not conducive to changing the norms of our society, challenging stigmas etc. The 'let them do what they want to themselves- but i personally don't like it/etc.'- is an attitude many people employ on the issue of 'gay rights'- it about as close one can cut to be prejudiced and still be considered to have a 'progressive' opinion. This obviously is not a topic that is of much personal interest to, fine, but your solidarity (rather than indifference) would be appreciated i'm sure!

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

It was the 'silly' that i picked up on, it's not called for/justified/fair IMO.


Why not? I don't have to justify my opinions.


'Hideous'? :/

Yes, hideous. I find the androgyny brought on by sex-change surgery unappealing.


I understand, but that is a very indifferent attitude, it's not conducive to changing the norms of our society, challenging stigmas etc. The 'let them do what they want to themselves- but i personally don't like it/etc.'- is an attitude many people employ on the issue of 'gay rights'- it about as close one can cut to be prejudiced and still be considered to have a 'progressive' opinion.

Maybe it's just the unfamiliarity of the whole thing that bothers me. The fact that people obsess over their actual sex versus their percieved sex just strikes me as a mental thing more than a physical thing.
Maybe our society's emphasis on gender roles is what puts them in this bind in the first place - such people may be unusually feminine for males (Or masculine if they're female), and as such feel pressured to physically change their sex to conform to current society's standards of femininity.

[Elect Marx]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2005, 10:18 AM
The fact that people obsess over their actual sex versus their percieved sex just strikes me as a mental thing more than a physical thing.
Maybe our society's emphasis on gender roles is what puts them in this bind in the first place - such people may be unusually feminine for males (Or masculine if they're female), and as such feel pressured to physically change their sex to conform to current society's standards of femininity.
I was making that point! :P

Femininity and masculinity are rather inane terms; at least in the social conditions they are often used. Sure certain traits are inherently male or female but masculinity and femininity are confused with gender roles even in scientific study, which I find quite disturbing. To draw the conclusion that certain social traits are inherent in male and female human being because they are generally applicable as such is a complete mockery of scientific study, as this completely omits the social conditioning. Using generalizations as if they where a genuine form of scientific measure is absurd. The male and female brains and hormone functions overlap, as to make a sort of bell curve between them, to have variations on either side doesn't mean inherently male or female; this is a sort of pseudo-science based on gender roles, much like eugenics often has the pretence of science and I am often saddened to see confused individuals taken in by arbitrary/reactionary terminology.

[FleasTheLemur]

Originally posted by 313C7 iVi4RX+Oct 3 2005, 06:05 PM--> (313C7 iVi4RX @ Oct 3 2005, 06:05 PM)
[email protected] 3 2005, 10:18 AM
The fact that people obsess over their actual sex versus their percieved sex just strikes me as a mental thing more than a physical thing.
Maybe our society's emphasis on gender roles is what puts them in this bind in the first place - such people may be unusually feminine for males (Or masculine if they're female), and as such feel pressured to physically change their sex to conform to current society's standards of femininity.
I was making that point! :P

Femininity and masculinity are rather inane terms; at least in the social conditions they are often used. Sure certain traits are inherently male or female but masculinity and femininity are confused with gender roles even in scientific study, which I find quite disturbing. To draw the conclusion that certain social traits are inherent in male and female human being because they are generally applicable as such is a complete mockery of scientific study, as this completely omits the social conditioning. Using generalizations as if they where a genuine form of scientific measure is absurd. The male and female brains and hormone functions overlap, as to make a sort of bell curve between them, to have variations on either side doesn't mean inherently male or female; this is a sort of pseudo-science based on gender roles, much like eugenics often has the pretence of science and I am often saddened to see confused individuals taken in by arbitrary/reactionary terminology. [/b]
... I have to agree with the l33t Marxist on this one, who is rather l33t.

[The Feral Underclass]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2005, 05:18 PM


It was the 'silly' that i picked up on, it's not called for/justified/fair IMO.


Why not? I don't have to justify my opinions.
Well, yes you do actually. This is the point of a debating message board. If you give an opinion, you have to justify it. Justify why you think it's "silly"!



'Hideous'? :/

Yes, hideous. I find the androgyny brought on by sex-change surgery unappealing.

There's a different between finding something "hideous" and not finding it "appealing." I don't find trout to be particularly appealing but I wouldn't go so far as to say it's hideous. Saying something is unappealing is not a justification for saying that it's hideous.

Fine, you can find it both hideous and unappealing but why do you use the word hideous? Allot of post-op people look completely normal. There are many women who were once men whom you couldn't tell the difference. What's so hideous about that?

I'm suspicious.


Maybe it's just the unfamiliarity of the whole thing that bothers me. The fact that people obsess over their actual sex versus their percieved sex just strikes me as a mental thing more than a physical thing.
Maybe our society's emphasis on gender roles is what puts them in this bind in the first place - such people may be unusually feminine for males (Or masculine if they're female), and as such feel pressured to physically change their sex to conform to current society's standards of femininity.

But that's not the case at all. Some people actuall feel, physically and mentally that they are the opposite sex. It's an actual medical condition.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Well, yes you do actually. This is the point of a debating message board. If you give an opinion, you have to justify it. Justify why you think it's "silly"!

An opinion is not an objective statement.


Fine, you can find it both hideous and unappealing but why do you use the word hideous? Allot of post-op people look completely normal. There are many women who were once men whom you couldn't tell the difference.

In that case I wouldn't notice or care. Maybe techniques have improved.


I'm suspicious.

What's there to be suspicious about? Where have I advocated the persecution and/or discrimination of transexuals? Or are you just itching for a witch hunt?

[The Feral Underclass]

Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2005, 08:37 PM

Well, yes you do actually. This is the point of a debating message board. If you give an opinion, you have to justify it. Justify why you think it's "silly"!

An opinion is not an objective statement.
I don't see why that makes any difference. If it's your opinion, justify it.



I'm suspicious.

What's there to be suspicious about? Where have I advocated the persecution and/or discrimination of transexuals? Or are you just itching for a witch hunt?

Quite a conclusion to jump to. I never said that this was what I was suspicious of. You came up with that, all by yourself.

I'm suspicious at your choice of words. You think transexuals are hideous? Interesting opinion to have for a "leftist."

Maybe I misunderstand, which I suppose is the point. You're not making yourself very clear. Do you want to justify what you're saying or admit that you're talking shit?

[KC]

I don't see why that makes any difference. If it's your opinion, justify it.


Transexuals are silly because they are. It's an opinion. It is unjustifiable. Justify why you think someone that is attractive is. Justify why you think a funny joke is funny.

[kurt]

Originally posted by [email protected] 2 2005, 09:59 PM
How does everyone think about Transexual people? Do you think its wrong to pretend your someone that your not? Should you just stay the way you are and except it?

I'm quite unsure about this subject, because I have a friend who believes 100% that he was meant to be born female. And after talking to him for awhile, I've learnt a few things. But i believe its not worth the effort, since your not really going to become the opposite sex.

I just think though, you're born either male or female. And you shouldn't really question it, just enjoy life the best you can and not make it anymore complicated than it already is.
I believe it's up to them, and we should support them in whatever choice they make.

[Ownthink]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2005, 01:44 AM
Who cares?
Took the words right outta my mouth.


Well, yes you do actually. This is the point of a debating message board. If you give an opinion, you have to justify it. Justify why you think it's "silly"!
Happen to agree with TAT on this one.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

My point is that I don't see why people feel strongly enough about this whole business to have themselves chopped up and fed hormone pills over it.
Surely it's better from a quality of life perspective to have a working male body than an incomplete, partially functional female one and vice versa?
But since they're harming nobody but themselves, I have no business whatsoever telling them what to do.
Tell me what's wrong with my POV? If you says it's not "supportive" enough, I ask you this; when did changing one's sex turn from a priveledge to a right? And if sex-change surgery doesn't really change your sex, how is the right to change one's sex enforceable?

I don't know, how far does sexual reassignment surgery go? Can it give a male the capability to bear a baby? I would say that is the defining point of being female!
Or is it merely a superficial change designed to satisfy those who feel pressured by biology to adopt a female form?

[The Feral Underclass]

Originally posted by [email protected] 5 2005, 02:04 AM


I don't see why that makes any difference. If it's your opinion, justify it.


Transexuals are silly because they are. It's an opinion. It is unjustifiable. Justify why you think someone that is attractive is. Justify why you think a funny joke is funny.
So this opinion just formulated out of thin air did it? It just popped into your brain without any explination or reason?...Is that possible?

And of course you can justify why someone is attractive and why a joke is funny. It's called reasoning. Opinions don't just aparate out of nothing.

Why are transexuals "silly"?

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Did you read my last post? that's as close to an explaination as you're going to get.

[The Feral Underclass]

Originally posted by [email protected] 5 2005, 08:14 AM
My point is that I don't see why people feel strongly enough about this whole business to have themselves chopped up and fed hormone pills over it.
Of course you don't. Why would you?

And like I said already, it's a medical condition.


Surely it's better from a quality of life perspective to have a working male body than an incomplete, partially functional female one and vice versa?

Evidently not.


Tell me what's wrong with my POV?

Your posts demonstrate a complete lack of understanding. Ignorance even.


I don't know, how far does sexual reassignment surgery go? Can it give a male the capability to bear a baby? I would say that is the defining point of being female! Or is it merely a superficial change designed to satisfy those who feel pressured by biology to adopt a female form?

How can you or I begin to imagine how it must feel knowing that you are a woman but having the body of a man. It's unfathomable to either of us, but this condition exists nevertheless.

I don't expect some people to want or even try to understand this. I have a friend who is a pre-op man who hopes one day to have the body of a woman and she says that she will feel liberated and whole and that she will be happy about herself.

Now, I can't understand that, but I don't think it's silly or hideous. It's a heart breaking fact that people have to endure not only the suffering of having a gender identity crisis, which is terrible to go through but the ignorance and prejudice that comes with it

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Of course you don't. Why would you?

And like I said already, it's a medical condition.

So's autism, but I don't think chelation therapy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/chelation+therapy) is the best way of dealing with it.
Likewise, I feel sexual reassignment surgery isn't the best way forward at this moment in time. Mainly because our medical technology with regards to SRS is so crude. I'm assuming this is so because you didn't answer my questions regarding the various physical aspects of being female. If I'm wrong, correct me.

But hey, it's their body, and if they feel that they'd be better of with a facsimile rather than the real thing, more power to them.

And a thought occurred to me...
Why is it that people who seriously believe that they are some historical figure or non-human species not recieving surgery to make them look like what they believe they are? What's so special about people who believe they're female when all physical evidence points to them being male? Why is the body seen as being in the wrong but the mind isn't?

[The Feral Underclass]

:huh:

Thank you for reiterating my point.

[Master Che]

I got a question if they were meant to be born the opposite sex, then how did they end up being born male (or female).

[The Feral Underclass]

Originally posted by [email protected] 5 2005, 12:27 PM
I got a question if they were meant to be born the opposite sex, then how did they end up being born male (or female).
Is that a genuine question or are you trying to be contentious?

[Donnie]

What ever makes them feel comfortable. It must be difficult to go through life with a gender problem especially for a teenager as there some very difficult years.

[JC1]

I think Transexuality/Crossdressing is a reactionary pshycological illness. Why ? Becuase we got men, going around dressed up as a women, claiming to be women. And what do communist's think of Gender/ Gender relation's ? We beleive that a gender is merly a mater of genital's. And yet we got these folk's runnin around saying that they "feel like a women".WTF does that mean ? It mean's these guy's are fetishizing gender relation's !

That's straight up reactionary!

As communist's, we plan to get rid of gender relation's, and I think it is negative thing's like gender relation's that cuase this type of illness. I, of course, dont recomend discriminating against them, and oppose discrimination against them.

[KC]

It's not an illness. It's a condition, genius.

[Entrails Konfetti]

Transexuality isn't silly, its logical because these people feel more confortable as the opposite sex and this way they can contribute more easily to society.

[JC1]

It's not an illness. It's a condition, genius.

I'm not going to respond to youre semantic games.


Transexuality isn't silly, its logical because these people feel more confortable as the opposite sex and this way they can contribute more easily to society.

They never had a vagina before, how do they now they would be more comfortable as a women. Becuase gender, to communist's anyway's, is a mere matter of genital's.

[KC]

I'm not going to respond to youre semantic games.


It's not semantics at all. A disease is something that is acquired during life and has the possibility of being cured. A condition is something you're born with. It is a characteristic inherent in that person. Conditions can't be cured. In this case it is an imbalance in hormones. You call it an illness and a disease. It is neither. It is a condition.


Becuase we got men, going around dressed up as a women, claiming to be women. And what do communist's think of Gender/ Gender relation's ? We beleive that a gender is merly a mater of genital's. And yet we got these folk's runnin around saying that they "feel like a women".WTF does that mean ? It mean's these guy's are fetishizing gender relation's !

Nobody thinks gender is just based on genitals. Gender is based on hormones, as well. These people feel like the opposite sex because of an imbalance in hormones. They are actually part-opposite sex. We are against gender roles. That is different.

[Karl Marx's Camel]

I don't really care as long as I don't have to be caged with that person.

[JC1]

It's not semantics at all. A disease is something that is acquired during life and has the possibility of being cured. A condition is something you're born with. It is a characteristic inherent in that person. Conditions can't be cured. In this case it is an imbalance in hormones. You call it an illness and a disease. It is neither. It is a condition.


OK. I think I see what you mean now.


Nobody thinks gender is just based on genitals. Gender is based on hormones, as well. These people feel like the opposite sex because of an imbalance in hormones. They are actually part-opposite sex. We are against gender roles. That is different.

Firstly, I think this is false, becuase when they do the phycological testing for someone applying for a gender re-assignment surgery, I dont think they do hormone testing. Also, TG folk ask for estrogen treatment, suggesting its not in there system. Sides' witch, even if they do have a hormonal imbalance, why not just give em' reverse hormonal treatment and psycological therapy.

[Master Che]

Originally posted by EL [email protected] 5 2005, 07:06 PM
Transexuality isn't silly, its logical because these people feel more confortable as the opposite sex and this way they can contribute more easily to society.
Which is why are society today sucks. I dont mind if they have the operation or not. But i believe it's not worth the effort, since you wont really have a vagina after the surgery.

[The Feral Underclass]

There is a huge amount of ignorance on this issue in this thread. This for example...?


i believe it's not worth the effort, since you wont really have a vagina after the surgery.

:huh:

It isn't a question of having the necessary effort to do it. It's not like deciding whether to make a cup of tea or not, it's about feeling comfortable and secure in your identity.

Allot of pre-op men and women literally feel alien to themselves. They actually feel seperate to their bodies. I'm sure you don't understand that, I don't fully understand it either, and that's because neither of us have to go through such an ordeal.

Imagine living your life in such a state? feeling like a stranger to your own body. Having a sex change is literally a life saver.

And you do have a vagina, that's the point. Not in the sense as a women who was born as one does, but they get pretty close.

[The Feral Underclass]

Originally posted by [email protected] 5 2005, 10:41 PM
I don't really care as long as I don't have to be caged with that person.
What does that mean?...What do you actually mean by that?

[rioters bloc]

for a forum with revolution in it's name, some posters seem to be incredibly conservative and regressive.

if people want to have gender reassignment, what the fuck does it matter to you. it's not fucking easy being queer, whether you're gay or bisexual or transexual or whatever. you may as well say, why do gay men like men? isn't that silly? think about it in these terms: if someone is willing to go through the trauma and pain associated with the stigma society puts on queer people, and in the case of transexuals the expense of surgery too, they're pretty goddamn serious about it. it's not something people do on a whim.

[Che NJ]

I think these surgeries are a misuse of science, people should just accept the way they are.

[Master Che]

I wouldent mind living as a women. Might be pissed off that i'd have to deal with menstraul but beside's that i'd be fine.

[The Feral Underclass]

Originally posted by Che [email protected] 5 2005, 11:50 PM
I think these surgeries are a misuse of science, people should just accept the way they are.
In future read the threads before you make posts otherwise you just appear stupid and ignorant.

The point is, people literally can't accept their bodies because they have a medical condition!

[Master Che]

Cant they be cured? There is therapy and such. Which can help them.

[The Feral Underclass]

Originally posted by [email protected] 6 2005, 12:02 AM
Cant they be cured? There is therapy and such. Which can help them.
Yes, it's called a sex change.

[Master Che]

No i mean something thats more reasonable and rationale.

[bed_of_nails]

This may be closed-minded, but I must admit I would prefer my mates to never have had a penis.

I fear that if I learned someone I had recently lain with had XY Chromosomes, the conversation would end with "Yeahhh... You should be going now".

How would you all feel about learning your partner was originally of the gender you are not attracted to?

[Master Che]

As a Communist/Nithilist i'd predict it wont end well.

[KC]

Again...

Who cares?

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

I'm giving you a warning point for spam.

[KC]

I was making a point. Just because it was two words long doesn't mean that it's spam, buddy.

[Elect Marx]

Originally posted by [email protected] 6 2005, 07:44 AM
I was making a point. Just because it was two words long doesn't mean that it's spam, buddy.
Repeating it does; good call Nox.

People; PM a mod if you don't like your warning point, especially when you were warned for spamming!

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Also I don't see the validity of the statement "Who cares?" when it's obvious that people care.

[Che NJ]

QUOTE (Che NJ @ Oct 5 2005, 11:50 PM)

I think these surgeries are a misuse of science, people should just accept the way they are. .

In future read the threads before you make posts otherwise you just appear stupid and ignorant.
The point is, people literally can't accept their bodies because they have a medical condition!

I guess what I meant was they shouldn't be given the oppurtunity to change, whichever scientist came up with these surgeries is just trying to exploit their condition. Its an elective surgery it isn't required maybe only for mental health.

and I did read the thread

[Mujer Libre]

Originally posted by Che [email protected] 6 2005, 06:56 PM

QUOTE (Che NJ @ Oct 5 2005, 11:50 PM)

I think these surgeries are a misuse of science, people should just accept the way they are. .

In future read the threads before you make posts otherwise you just appear stupid and ignorant.
The point is, people literally can't accept their bodies because they have a medical condition!

I guess what I meant was they shouldn't be given the oppurtunity to change, whichever scientist came up with these surgeries is just trying to exploit their condition. Its an elective surgery it isn't required maybe only for mental health.

and I did read the thread
Yeah, mental health. That is the whole reason for the surgery. You know, to stop people becoming so depressed they can't keep living a normal life or may even attempt suicide. So that they actually feel comfortable in their bodies.

Mental illness is hardly something trivial.

[Che NJ]

Yeah, mental health. That is the whole reason for the surgery. You know, to stop people becoming so depressed they can't keep living a normal life or may even attempt suicide. So that they actually feel comfortable in their bodies.

Mental illness is hardly something trivial.
maybe they need some kind of therapy. This is the first time in human history where you can change your sex, as far as I know, people weren't killing themselves over things like this before. their condition has to be caused by some kind of cultural development. Mental health is a big deal, I think we should just learn about what causes this before we start cutting. there has to be an alternative to surgery. if there is some kind of psychological study on this, I would like to see a link.

[bombeverything]

maybe they need some kind of therapy.

Why? So people have a "mental illness" because they wish to physically change their bodies in order to feel more comfortable within society? This reminds me of the time the medical profession used to consider homosexuality a mental illness --- remember that? By saying that they need therapy you are suggesting that the problem lies within the individual.


their condition has to be caused by some kind of cultural development.

Yes, a society that cannot disconnect “sex” and “gender”.


Mental health is a big deal, I think we should just learn about what causes this before we start cutting. there has to be an alternative to surgery. if there is some kind of psychological study on this, I would like to see a link.

On one hand you are saying the "problem" is psychological whilst on the other you seem to be suggesting that it is social. Make up your mind!

[Elect Marx]

Originally posted by Che [email protected] 6 2005, 08:51 PM
maybe they need some kind of therapy.
Definitely; but that cannot make them "all better." You aren't going to get over hormonal imbalances, self image problems and deep social frustration overnight.


as far as I know, people weren't killing themselves over things like this before.

How exactly would you know? I wouldn't be surprised if people where often murdered for such gender identity and they wouldn't have given it a pretty name or write your name in some history book. Someone calls you a faggot, then they kill you and bury the evidence; do you hear much about that history at all? It still happens!


their condition has to be caused by some kind of cultural development.

It really doesn't; it is possible but they could just be born that way. We would need conclusive data to know one way or the other.


Mental health is a big deal, I think we should just learn about what causes this before we start cutting.

Could you tell that to people at the end of their rope, people not wanting to live? "There is a perfectly good explanation for your feelings," doesn't do a damn bit of good when you don't want to live.


there has to be an alternative to surgery. if there is some kind of psychological study on this, I would like to see a link.

You work on destroying gender roles and maybe people will not suffer so; until then; what the fuck are you going to do? You have to live in this world and sometimes it is just shit.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Hypathetical question: what if a woman feels that her breasts should be bigger and can't live comfortably with the size breasts she was born with.. what if it's a serious issue with her?

How would that be dealt with in a socialist society?

And how far does it go?

[Elect Marx]

Originally posted by [email protected] 6 2005, 11:00 PM
Hypathetical question: what if a woman feels that her breasts should be bigger and can't live comfortably with the size breasts she was born with.. what if it's a serious issue with her?

How would that be dealt with in a socialist society?

And how far does it go?
I happen to know someone like that on this very board!

The psychological masochism of our currant predatory society will obviously fade away and surgery will develop to a superior state quite quickly but people can do what they want as far as I am concerned, though she might very well be offered counseling, instead of being railroaded trough the OR.

[bombeverything]

Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2005, 05:00 AM
Hypathetical question: what if a woman feels that her breasts should be bigger and can't live comfortably with the size breasts she was born with.. what if it's a serious issue with her?

How would that be dealt with in a socialist society?

And how far does it go?

Well I would tend to say that this would mean that there is a problem within that society, ie. the existence of patriarchy.

[Elect Marx]

Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2005, 12:33 AM
Well I would tend to say that this would mean that there is a problem within that society, ie. the existence of patriarchy.
I would agree for the most part but what if they really do just find their flat chest distasteful?

[rioters bloc]

but why would they find it distasteful? aesthetic appreciation doesn't just come from nowhere, it comes from society's expectations disseminated through media. a patriarchal media.

[TC]

I don't know if i'm following this thread correctly and i do think that people have an absolute right to decide what they do with their own bodies...but i think a lot of leftists here are being extremely gullible in trying to view it as a minority group to defend.

forgeting about the particular subject for a matter...how persuasive would the arguments be in defending people who wanted to change other aspects of their identity?

Like, i bet there are a *TON* of white collar and middle class kids who just truely feel that they *ought* to have been born aristocrats and capitalists (think about all the rightwingers in IO, bet few or none of them are actually rich). Lets say these "transclassuals" claim that they can only feel comfortable with a lot of money and a lot of power. Would the solution be to give every 'transclassual' a 10 million dollar trust fund? What if it was rumored that it was a serious medical condition, do they get their trust funds then (These kids are gonna be SUFFERING if they don't have those trust funds, they feel a basic conflict with the class they were born as!!!!)?

Or, hypothetically, Michael Jackson wants to be a white child...he's certaintly done things to make him seem more like a white child cosmetically, the skin color, childish voice, weight loss, dumb costumes, ect. While i'd defend Jackson's right to do whatever the f' he wants to himself, i'd also defend other people's right not to believe he is in fact a white child and instead to continue to think of him as a sick black man. And so, while Jackson (the 'transgenerational/transracial'...its a serious medical condition!!!!) wants to do the things that are socially appropriate for little white kids like have sleepovers with other little white kids, including in his bed, play with little white kids as if he was a little kid, ect, since no one else actually sees him that way everyone else is going to view his behavior as being entirely inappropriate.

So whats the difference with the transclassuals, transgenerational, transracial examples? Clearly there really are people who feel that way about those things as well.

[Che NJ]

Mental health is a big deal, I think we should just learn about what causes this before we start cutting. there has to be an alternative to surgery. if there is some kind of psychological study on this, I would like to see a link.

On one hand you are saying the "problem" is psychological whilst on the other you seem to be suggesting that it is social. Make up your mind!
It is a psychological problem made worse by a cultural and medical development. The fact that they are given the oppurtunity to change makes their desire to change intensify. The fact that culture, to an extent, accepts that kind of thing just encourages people to change who they are.



as far as I know, people weren't killing themselves over things like this before.

How exactly would you know? I wouldn't be surprised if people where often murdered for such gender identity and they wouldn't have given it a pretty name or write your name in some history book. Someone calls you a faggot, then they kill you and bury the evidence; do you hear much about that history at all? It still happens!
I don't know, it probably did happen but they couldn't do anything about it, now peope can get a surgery. I'm just saying they were forced to accept it more before the surgeries.



Hypathetical question: what if a woman feels that her breasts should be bigger and can't live comfortably with the size breasts she was born with.. what if it's a serious issue with her?

How would that be dealt with in a socialist society?

And how far does it go?


I don't think a socialist healthcare system would pay for this kind of stuff. People become addicted to things like plastic surgery. I only endorse plastic surgery if it's reconstructive because of an accident or disease.

[KC]

I don't think a socialist healthcare system would pay for this kind of stuff.

They're in the midst of a revolution. I don't think they'll be worrying about their tits.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2005, 04:39 PM


I don't think a socialist healthcare system would pay for this kind of stuff.

They're in the midst of a revolution. I don't think they'll be worrying about their tits.
And afterwards? It's not like the revolution is going to be some sort of permanent feature. You're dodging the issue.

[Master Che]

Has anyone seen that south park episode where mr.garison has a sex change? That episode had a good point.

[Elect Marx]

Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2005, 02:36 PM
Has anyone seen that south park episode where mr.garison has a sex change? That episode had a good point.
Yes; any point in particular?

[Che NJ]

Has anyone seen that south park episode where mr.garison has a sex change? That episode had a good point.
that episode was ok, except for when they show a video of somebody having a sex change operation(ahh!). That episode had no point at all.

[Master Che]

Thst video looked so painful. The pain alone isnt worth it. If getting hit HARD is hell. I cant even think of how horrible it is when you cut it off and mutilate the area around it.

[KC]

And afterwards? It's not like the revolution is going to be some sort of permanent feature. You're dodging the issue.

Afterwards, there is communism. Communism is moneyless.