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View Full Version : Vanguard - what it means, what's it role



celticfire
1st October 2005, 17:15
I wanted to start a thread on the topic of Vanguard and what the role of them are. I've noticed that a number of people seem to think it means ordering others to do what you want. Well, I and I know others disagree and to add to the discussion I wanted to throw in Bob Avakian's comments on the vanguard:

What It Means To Be The Vanguard (http://rwor.org/a/v24/1161-1170/1161/baintrv6.htm)

Carl Dix: Okay, so let me bring back the second part of that question which also some of these forces pose -- "Why can this party call itself a vanguard? What is it about this party that qualifies it for that?" And some of them pose it more negatively about why they think it's not.

Bob Avakian: First of all, what does it mean to say you're the vanguard? Does it mean that you insist that everybody follow you whatever you do? No, that's not what it means--or that's not what it should mean.

What it means is not that you are declaring yourself that which everyone must follow, but that you're taking responsibility, in all of its different expressions and every dimension, for actually leading the process that has to be carried forward in order to deal with the problem, in order to bring about the solution, in order to upend and overturn the system and transform all of society and contribute to that process on a worldwide basis. That's what it means to be a vanguard fundamentally. It means you're taking the responsibility for that, and that means both leading and it also means learning. It means learning from the masses and it means learning from other people. It means carrying out a process of unity-struggle-unity with many different forces in society. But that's fundamentally what you're doing when you're saying that you're the--you're saying, "We are willing to and determined to take the responsibility for leading the revolutionary process to overturn this monstrous system and to bring into being a better world together with revolutionaries and vanguard forces throughout the world."

So that's a fundamental point that's very important to stress. It's a fundamental point of orientation.

Now, how do you determine if a group really is a vanguard or not? Once again it gets back to line. This question has to be approached in a concentrated way as a matter of line. Does a group's line--does its outlook on the world, does its world view, does its methodology, does its programme, do its policies actually represent a correct understanding of the problem and a correct means to achieve the solution? Does it really have the means, on the basis of that line, to mobilize the forces that have to be mobilized and to lead people and bring forward people consciously to struggle for what needs to be struggled for in order to bring into being a better world on the basis of having overturned and swept away this system? That's the fundamental question.

Now it's true that a vanguard, to really be a vanguard, should have some following among the masses. In other words, if it merely has a line, in the sense of a set of ideas that it never carries out in practice and never mobilizes the masses around, first of all its line will not remain correct because you can't cook up the correct line in a hothouse where you're divorced from the actual class struggle. You're only going to learn more and more deeply what's correct by taking it into practice and carrying out what we call the practice-theory-practice dialectic, where you formulate ideas on the basis of summing up as much as you can about reality, you take them out to put them into practice, unite with the masses to carry them out, win the masses to take them up, learn from the masses as well as from experience broadly in that context and then further develop your line. That you have to do. If you don't do that, if you're not actively doing that, then objectively you're not a vanguard no matter how good your ideas sound (if they do).

Second of all, yes, you should have a certain section of the masses behind you, but there's an important point in this regard that Lenin made. He said the definition of "masses" means different things in different circumstances. He said in a non-revolutionary situation, masses can mean a few thousand people. In a revolutionary situation, then you have to be thinking and acting in terms of millions or tens of millions.

In a situation which today, unfortunately, is still a non-revolutionary situation in the U.S., no revolutionary vanguard is going to have millions of people following it, pretty much by definition, I mean in its full program. It may be able to and it should be able to unite with tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands, and even millions in certain particular struggles. But in a non-revolutionary situation, a revolutionary vanguard is not going to have millions of people following it in its full program; otherwise, you'd be in a revolutionary situation almost by definition if you had that. So that can't be the standard and criterion.

But the standard and criterion that is important--it's not as fundamental as the question of line, but it is important and it is also a reflection of line and how you're carrying it out--is that a vanguard should have, even in a non-revolutionary situation, thousands and perhaps tens of thousands of people who either more or less are following it directly or who look to it for leadership. And by that criterion our Party does in fact constitute a vanguard. And the point is not to be complacent with that. The point is that we're always, as we say, seeking to strain against the limits that are imposed by the objective conditions and to transform them and to expand the ranks of the revolution as well as to advance the struggle overall. But I think that's the way you have to approach the question of whether you're a vanguard or not.

==============================================

Anarchist thinking says we don't need a vanguard, that they're only vehicles for controlling the masses not to real liberation. But I see a contridction among anarchist thinking, for example: one anarchist said "we need to teach people to liberate themselves, we don't need a vanguard." I think that is the whole point of a vanguard, to lead people to liberate themselves and raise above what we have all been taught we can accomplish (ie: all you can really do is vote for a democrat) - a vanguard's role is to raise the sights of the masses beyond what the oppressors have taught us to think we can accomplish.

There is the possibility of vanguards becoming their opposite (mechanisms for oppression) but honestly I see that with council communism and direct democracy too - take SDS (Students for a Democratic Society) for example, I've read personal accounts that they had a participatory democracy, but in reality decisions were shaped by "heavies" or full time activists, who were usually white men. So I don't think just throwing away the vanguard idea solves the problem of revisionism (people who will take us back to capitalism within our own movements) nor does it mean that the masses will really master their society.

I look forward to a comradely discussion.

kurt
1st October 2005, 20:37
What it means is not that you are declaring yourself that which everyone must follow, but that you're taking responsibility, in all of its different expressions and every dimension, for actually leading the process that has to be carried forward in order to deal with the problem, in order to bring about the solution, in order to upend and overturn the system and transform all of society and contribute to that process on a worldwide basis.
By leading the process, you are declaring that people should be following. Perhaps this is your 'principle contradiction' that you need to solve. :lol:


Does a group's line--does its outlook on the world, does its world view, does its methodology, does its programme, do its policies actually represent a correct understanding of the problem and a correct means to achieve the solution?
Leninism and its variants have a horrible track record when it comes to communist revolution. So I'd have to say the RCP does indeed have it wrong.


Second of all, yes, you should have a certain section of the masses behind you
Once again we get down to the crux of vanguardism. You want the masses 'behind' you. As long as they agree with your 'line', everything is good. At least we don't have to worry about the vanguard's repression until they've seized power.



Anarchist thinking says we don't need a vanguard, that they're only vehicles for controlling the masses not to real liberation. But I see a contridction among anarchist thinking, for example: one anarchist said "we need to teach people to liberate themselves, we don't need a vanguard."
I fail to see the contradiction there, and the anarchists have it right, a vanguard is a vehicle for controlling the masses.


I think that is the whole point of a vanguard, to lead people to liberate themselves and raise above what we have all been taught we can accomplish (ie: all you can really do is vote for a democrat) - a vanguard's role is to raise the sights of the masses beyond what the oppressors have taught us to think we can accomplish.
If people are truely going to liberate themselves, it's a contradiction to say that they need a leader to be liberated. Face it, you think the masses are incapable of deciding their own destiny. You think they need to be controlled in order to achieve success.


There is the possibility of vanguards becoming their opposite (mechanisms for oppression)
So far, it's been a certainty.

celticfire
1st October 2005, 21:13
comradekurt:


"By leading the process, you are declaring that people should be following. Perhaps this is your 'principle contradiction' that you need to solve."

As I've said on other posts - leadership comes along, leaders emerge and lines emerge. I think you are thinking of capitalist leadership, which just says "Look do what I say, because you're too stupid to figuring out things for yourself." That isn't communist leadership and if someone calling themselves a communist argued that I would stand with you against it. But that's not what I or the RCP are arguing for. We are arguing for leadership that can like I said - raise our sights above bourgeois right.


Leninism and its variants have a horrible track record when it comes to communist revolution. So I'd have to say the RCP does indeed have it wrong.

Can you source this? What horrible track record? Communists led succesful revolutions that were defeated by internal revisionists.



Once again we get down to the crux of vanguardism. You want the masses 'behind' you. As long as they agree with your 'line', everything is good. At least we don't have to worry about the vanguard's repression until they've seized power.

I don't think you actually read what I posted.

Here is what Avakian said, which I agree with:


What it means is not that you are declaring yourself that which everyone must follow, but that you're taking responsibility, in all of its different expressions and every dimension, for actually leading the process that has to be carried forward in order to deal with the problem, in order to bring about the solution, in order to upend and overturn the system and transform all of society and contribute to that process on a worldwide basis. That's what it means to be a vanguard fundamentally. It means you're taking the responsibility for that, and that means both leading and it also means learning. It means learning from the masses and it means learning from other people. It means carrying out a process of unity-struggle-unity with many different forces in society. But that's fundamentally what you're doing when you're saying that you're the--you're saying, "We are willing to and determined to take the responsibility for leading the revolutionary process to overturn this monstrous system and to bring into being a better world together with revolutionaries and vanguard forces throughout the world."

It's not about following but struggling. comradekurt how do you see leadership?




If people are truely going to liberate themselves, it's a contradiction to say that they need a leader to be liberated. Face it, you think the masses are incapable of deciding their own destiny. You think they need to be controlled in order to achieve success.

kurt
1st October 2005, 22:30
As I've said on other posts - leadership comes along, leaders emerge and lines emerge. I think you are thinking of capitalist leadership, which just says "Look do what I say, because you're too stupid to figuring out things for yourself."
But that's exactly what leninist parties do, and the RCP is no exception.


Can you source this? What horrible track record?
USSR, Vietnam, China, want more?


Communists led succesful revolutions that were defeated by internal revisionists.
This is where we get the personality arguments. Trotskyists like to say that the USSR would have been successfully communist if only Trotsky hadn't been 'backstabbed' by the stalinists in the party. Maoists like to say that China was thrown off the path of socialism because of internal 'revisionists', and that Mao tried to struggle against these revisionists, but was unsuccessful.

Why should we assume that the RCP won't do the same? If all these leninist parties managed to succumb to revisionism, what make the RCP different? Should we put our 'faith' in Bob? Maybe if leninism so easily succumbs to revisionism, it should be thrown in the trash.


I don't think you actually read what I posted.

Here is what Avakian said
I also read State and Revolution. Unfortunately it didn't amount to a pile of crap when the leninist paradigm was applied to it. Bob's pretty good at writing vague arguments. He can preach all he wants(and I'm sure he will), but leninism will always lead to despotism.



It's not about following but struggling.
Then don't 'lead' the masses. Let them do it themselves, and 'struggle' with them yourself.

Connolly
1st October 2005, 22:33
Can you source this? What horrible track record? Communists led succesful revolutions that were defeated by internal revisionists.


How can it be a successful "communist" revolution if it never achieved socialism, never mind communism?.............................The fact that they failed to achieve their goals every time is a horrible track record to me. Especially when their goals were built on the false hope of the masses................Its ridiculus to claim Vanguardism works or fails when the proper material conditions have not developed...........Its not possible to tell..................read other topics, couldnt be bothered going into this all again. :D

RB

flyby
10th October 2005, 00:42
I look at this "track record" very differently.

first, we are early in the communist revolution (historically speaking) and we have had spectacular revolutions, lighting up the whole world, and making huge strides (within a world still dominated by imperialism.)

They were eventually defeated, and capitalism was restored. But that too is a reflection of the early stages of the process.

To put it another way: the capitalist revolutions took three hundred years before a stable capitalist power emerged in the 1800s.

The french revolution, the great capitalist revolution of the 1700s, ended up with Napoleon crowning himself emperor in ten years. Did that mean that capitalism was impossible, or not an advance over feudalism, or that its victory could not be forseen?

Let me put it another way; You are watching a baby try to stand for the first time, and take a few steps. And you see the baby fall, the first two times. Would you say to the kid "Sorry, walking has failed! it has a terrible track record! you keep falling. Time to try something else" -- ??? No. that would be absurd.

And in fact, these first major attempts at building socialism (inthe soviet union and china) were filled with major positive and earth shaking aspects. There are also things we would do differently (looking back WITH THE BENEFIT OF THEIR EXPERIENCE AND SACRIFICE).

Obviously there is a lot to investigate (politically and historically) to understand the complexity and dynamics of the world's socialist revolutions.

One place to start is here The Set the Record Straight Project (http://www.thisiscommunism.org/)