Is it alright...

[HoorayForTheRedBlackandGreen]

I love poking fun at Christians for some reason. I just get a kick out having people accuse me of being a communist, only to find out I am one. And it's so easy to laugh at them!

[TheReadMenace]

I listen to black metal.

So I don't have much a problem with insulting religions and/or religious people.

Andrew

[Roses in the Hospital]

There's a difference between challenging religion and insulting religion. I know sometimes it's difficuilt not to mock them, but, remeber, everyone has a right to believe whatever they like, however misguided it may be...

[Intifada]

Originally posted by Roses in the [email protected] 23 2005, 08:04 AM
There's a difference between challenging religion and insulting religion. I know sometimes it's difficuilt not to mock them, but, remeber, everyone has a right to believe whatever they like, however misguided it may be...
Indeed, I agree.

[Fidelbrand]

I'm with Roses in the Hospital. All you can do is debate with them.

Mocking and discrimination is just leftist fascism. In no way we can create a better society when we do what historical lefties did.

Not to say that we should shy away from what we think is arcane and/or unreasonable, but a wider embrace is very much needed if we were to get "there".

[LSD]

There's a difference between challenging religion and insulting religion.

Yes, but both are acceptable.

There's nothing wrong with mocking religion or any belief system for that matter. Mocking ideas is harmless fun, and, if done well, bloody useful. Exposing the ludicrousy and, to be frank, insanity of religious belief is a rather effective way of diesmpowering it.

That's not the same thing, however, as mocking religious people. That's harmful, petty, and counterproductive.

Don't hurt feelings, hurt ideas; they're a hell of a lot more dangerous.


Mocking and discrimination is just leftist fascism.

:huh:

"leftist fascism"? Sorry, no such thing.

[Scars]

I think there's more constructive things that you can do with your time than sitting round making fun of Christians, but each to their own.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Originally posted by [email protected] 24 2005, 01:36 AM
I think there's more constructive things that you can do with your time than sitting round making fun of Christians, but each to their own.
Well, I don't make a chore of it like you seem to think, but I still enjoy it. :lol:


That's not the same thing, however, as mocking religious people. That's harmful, petty, and counterproductive.

I'm sorry, but if people repeatedly refuse to see sense (eg they're fundamentalist) they deserve to have the piss ripped out of them. Moderate christians are usually more sensible.

I have little tolerance for fundamentalists.


Mocking and discrimination is just leftist fascism.

Ironically, the most "fascist" elements of leftism, eg stalinists and third positionists, are quite friendly toward religion, or at least the mentality that it generates.

[Jaded Revolutionary]

I agree with that Scars. What purpose does it serve challenging people's beliefs anyway? Christians are usually pretty set with their beliefs, and won't change just because one person is challenging their opinion. If that's how they want to live their life, so be it. As long as they aren't harming you, I don't see what the problem is..

[HoorayForTheRedBlackandGreen]

Yes, I only make fun of the idiotic ones who'll believe in anything as long as an old rich white guy says it.

[Jaded Revolutionary]

Ha.. well.. I have this online friend of mine. He's a really, really devout Catholic, as conservative as they come. He's an alright guy even though I disagree with his politics (disagree is too weak a word) but he just sent me an email saying that he sent me in the post a chastity booklet called "Pure Love" I find this insulting that he thinks I need a booklet like this, and that he has the nerve to send it to me. I had no problem with him until he started pushing his beliefs on me like now. Should I debate with him about it?

[violencia.Proletariat]

i mock christians everyday, and its always fun, you should do it to. we have to make christianity a joke, make it where people would laugh at other people for being christian. kind of how they laugh at us for being communists. i always tell this one girl to go make me and sandwich, or do stuff for me, why should i do that? she asks, because your holy book says so! fun stuff like that.

[Fidelbrand]

Originally posted by Lysergic Acid [email protected] 24 2005, 02:18 AM
"leftist fascism"? Sorry, no such thing.
Hitler as an example? Stalin as well....

Reference / link. (http://geocities.com/jonjayray/musso.html)

[Erythromycin-diazepam]

Well i usally go to up to avid church goers and say " THE DEVIL IS UPON US" just for shits and giggles.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Originally posted by Roses in the [email protected] 23 2005, 08:04 AM
There's a difference between challenging religion and insulting religion. I know sometimes it's difficuilt not to mock them, but, remeber, everyone has a right to believe whatever they like, however misguided it may be...
I agree. I think we have to keep in mind that religon plays a dual role in society: there have always been the bigots who use religion to promote national wars or hatred, but there have been many progressive religious movements too. How productive would it be to be a communist in the 50s and ridicule MLK or other people in the civil rights movement who were religious? Poor people have always turned to religion when material explainations for poverty and repression arn't apparent and any mass movement in the US will undoubtedly involve lots of people who believe in a God.

At the same time we have to make it clear that we don't think God or spiritual "oneness" will solve societal problems of imperialism and exploitation.

As far as right-wingers who justify their f***ed up beliefs with religion, well, in my opinion, we have to attack them and argue with them in political, not theological, grounds.

[kurt]

.................................

[Hegemonicretribution]

Christianity isn't a bad idea, just no one has ever tried it. (Insert communism where Christanity fits to see the flip side). Whilst there are inapropriate restrictions placed by the religion, as far as codes of ethics go there could be worse, and if people followed these codes devoutly we would have less to rebel against. Now I am an athiest, but religion had its uses, and was abused and contorted.

Communism was the opium of the people in Stalinist Russia, if we try and define religion it is easy to see where blurs can occur, it is just that there is no idea of a supreme being in Communsm. Surely therefore there are other religions lacking a leader that could be seen as acceptable?

Preach to the preachers by all means, but in many cases the sort of people stcking to religious practise today are just going to feel negatve towards any movement that ridicules one of the only things that they see as good in ther lives.

[Red_Two]

Originally posted by Jaded [email protected] 24 2005, 02:01 AM
Should I debate with him about it?
No you should start making your own decisions, not hive minded like everyone else.

[LibertyOrDeath]

...there is no idea of a supreme being in Communsm.

Actually, there is -- it's the state.

See, Christians do what God tells them to because they believe that God knows what is best for them.

On the other hand, communist revolutionaries believe that they know what is best for the masses. (Of course, implicit in this belief is the presumption on the part of the revolutionary that he himself is NOT part of "the masses," but I digress). So, they fight to impose communism on willing/unwilling masses. Then the masses, insofar as they accept communism, believe that the revolutionaries who brought them communism (who, by the way, are now the political leaders/the state) know what is best for them, and follow them accordingly. Voala -- the state has replaced God as the infallible.

The concept of infallibility is never removed from human philosophy -- it is simply reattributed.

[Hegemonicretribution]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2005, 03:17 AM
...there is no idea of a supreme being in Communsm.

Actually, there is -- it's the state.

See, Christians do what God tells them to because they believe that God knows what is best for them.

On the other hand, communist revolutionaries believe that they know what is best for the masses. (Of course, implicit in this belief is the presumption on the part of the revolutionary that he himself is NOT part of "the masses," but I digress). So, they fight to impose communism on willing/unwilling masses. Then the masses, insofar as they accept communism, believe that the revolutionaries who brought them communism (who, by the way, are now the political leaders/the state) know what is best for them, and follow them accordingly. Voala -- the state has replaced God as the infallible.

The concept of infallibility is never removed from human philosophy -- it is simply reattributed.
It is Socialism to which you refer, there is no state in communism. The reason I refered to "communism" in the USSR is because it would be a false worship, like that of other religion.

[violencia.Proletariat]

Originally posted by [email protected] 24 2005, 08:30 AM
Christianity isn't a bad idea, just no one has ever tried it. (Insert communism where Christanity fits to see the flip side). Whilst there are inapropriate restrictions placed by the religion, as far as codes of ethics go there could be worse, and if people followed these codes devoutly we would have less to rebel against. Now I am an athiest, but religion had its uses, and was abused and contorted.

Communism was the opium of the people in Stalinist Russia, if we try and define religion it is easy to see where blurs can occur, it is just that there is no idea of a supreme being in Communsm. Surely therefore there are other religions lacking a leader that could be seen as acceptable?

Preach to the preachers by all means, but in many cases the sort of people stcking to religious practise today are just going to feel negatve towards any movement that ridicules one of the only things that they see as good in ther lives.
no, it is a terrible idea and no should ever try it. what is this trying it you speak of anyways? you mean follow what the bible literally says as a guideline? if thats the case, then we are going to have the exact opposite of communism. we will have a world full of sexism, slavery, and crusades. :(

[La Comédie Noire]

I do not argue Religion, because there is no point to it and it is a very dangerous thing to do. All you need to say is "You can start telling me about a grand after life, or an absence there of, when you've died and come back cause until then none of us have enough exprience to really know"

[Jimmie Higgins]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2005, 03:17 AM
...there is no idea of a supreme being in Communsm.

Actually, there is -- it's the state.

See, Christians do what God tells them to because they believe that God knows what is best for them.

On the other hand, communist revolutionaries believe that they know what is best for the masses. (Of course, implicit in this belief is the presumption on the part of the revolutionary that he himself is NOT part of "the masses," but I digress). So, they fight to impose communism on willing/unwilling masses. Then the masses, insofar as they accept communism, believe that the revolutionaries who brought them communism (who, by the way, are now the political leaders/the state) know what is best for them, and follow them accordingly. Voala -- the state has replaced God as the infallible.

The concept of infallibility is never removed from human philosophy -- it is simply reattributed.
I see the supreme being you worship is a giant straw-man.

I won't go through your incorrect assumptions because I'm sure other people have pointed them out to you in different topic on this site.

But I will second the satement that there is no idea of a supreme being in Communsm. Marxists are humanists and believe that since society was created by man, man can change society. The only thing that would come close to a "supreme being" in marxist ideas is humanity as a whole.

Read some marx before you act like you know what it's about. If you still disagree, then great; at least then we can have a real and informed debate. "Communism" is a society without a state, so your idea that the supreme being of "communism" is the state is laughable. Do a little reading and then come back here ith your arguments.

[KC]

There's a difference between challenging religion and insulting religion. I know sometimes it's difficuilt not to mock them, but, remeber, everyone has a right to believe whatever they like, however misguided it may be...

Yeah, legally they have the right to believe whatever they want. But if everyone knew that I worshipped a giant penis or something like that, I would be socially ostracized. So no it doesn't matter at all if you make fun of any religions because god is as laughable as my giant penis.



Indeed, I agree.

Then you should see above.


I agree with that Scars. What purpose does it serve challenging people's beliefs anyway?

It changes them.


Christians are usually pretty set with their beliefs, and won't change just because one person is challenging their opinion.

What about moderate christians? Not all people are so entrenched in their beliefs. Also, what about the children growing up that have not yet formed an opinion that hear these criticisms? It influences them to become atheist


Ha.. well.. I have this online friend of mine. He's a really, really devout Catholic, as conservative as they come. He's an alright guy even though I disagree with his politics (disagree is too weak a word) but he just sent me an email saying that he sent me in the post a chastity booklet called "Pure Love" I find this insulting that he thinks I need a booklet like this, and that he has the nerve to send it to me. I had no problem with him until he started pushing his beliefs on me like now. Should I debate with him about it?

Yes. Yell at him. Get the point across that you dont believe what he does. He'll get the picture if you're aggressive enough.

[Elect Marx]

Originally posted by Lysergic Acid [email protected] 23 2005, 12:18 PM

There's a difference between challenging religion and insulting religion.

Yes, but both are acceptable.

There's nothing wrong with mocking religion or any belief system for that matter. Mocking ideas is harmless fun, and, if done well, bloody useful. Exposing the ludicrousy and, to be frank, insanity of religious belief is a rather effective way of diesmpowering it.

That's not the same thing, however, as mocking religious people. That's harmful, petty, and counterproductive.

Don't hurt feelings, hurt ideas; they're a hell of a lot more dangerous.
Damn you LSD! I wanted to make that point :P

Though the religious often take an attack on their "faith" as a personal assault, I say all dogma is in season; you aren't your "faith."

[Hegemonicretribution]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2005, 03:27 PM
no, it is a terrible idea and no should ever try it. what is this trying it you speak of anyways? you mean follow what the bible literally says as a guideline? if thats the case, then we are going to have the exact opposite of communism. we will have a world full of sexism, slavery, and crusades. :(
Not necessarily, to say that Christianity leads to these things is to say that communism leads to something between Pol Pot and 1984. The texts are often contradictory, but the basic idea is the same nicey nicey bullshit that is a moral code of many societies. No stealing, no killing, no cheating...only the bit about one god gets a bit dodgy. The fundamental belief system if interreted by someone other than psycho would be better than what we have, apart from not being based in truth.

The crusades were no more Christian than Pol Pot communist. Slavery and sexism are no more a part of it than invasion of privacy and errosion of rights are parts of communism.

[violencia.Proletariat]

Originally posted by Hegemonicretribution+Sep 27 2005, 05:06 PM--> (Hegemonicretribution @ Sep 27 2005, 05:06 PM)
[email protected] 25 2005, 03:27 PM
no, it is a terrible idea and no should ever try it. what is this trying it you speak of anyways? you mean follow what the bible literally says as a guideline? if thats the case, then we are going to have the exact opposite of communism. we will have a world full of sexism, slavery, and crusades. :(
Not necessarily, to say that Christianity leads to these things is to say that communism leads to something between Pol Pot and 1984. The texts are often contradictory, but the basic idea is the same nicey nicey bullshit that is a moral code of many societies. No stealing, no killing, no cheating...only the bit about one god gets a bit dodgy. The fundamental belief system if interreted by someone other than psycho would be better than what we have, apart from not being based in truth.

The crusades were no more Christian than Pol Pot communist. Slavery and sexism are no more a part of it than invasion of privacy and errosion of rights are parts of communism. [/b]
i cant really agree with you on that. because the bible is a "holy text" so whats included in it is what you are supposed to follow. now i dont belive a word of the bible BUT, if you follow christianity and believe in it theres a mix message all through out it. god supports the destruction of cities of now believers, etc. that clearly contradicts the thou shall not kill deal. so if christians were to live by the ten commandments only, that would be a bit more clear. even still it is homophobic and should be thrown out. you cant relate pol pot to communism at all. he never obtained communism, how can it give communism a bad name?

[Hegemonicretribution]

i cant really agree with you on that. because the bible is a "holy text" so whats included in it is what you are supposed to follow. now i dont belive a word of the bible BUT, if you follow christianity and believe in it theres a mix message all through out it. god supports the destruction of cities of now believers, etc. that clearly contradicts the thou shall not kill deal. so if christians were to live by the ten commandments only, that would be a bit more clear.

It isn't clear you are right, and because it is open to interpretation problems arise.


even still it is homophobic and should be thrown out.
I never said this was grounds for utopia, just that in some repects (not this one) there could be worse versions of morality.


you cant relate pol pot to communism at all. he never obtained communism, how can it give communism a bad name?
My point exactly, I know this and agree with you. However in order to accept this you must also accept that crusades were not Christian and Bush is not capitalist (well in this case it is Marx's word, but according to real capitalists).

[violencia.Proletariat]

Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2005, 06:14 PM

My point exactly, I know this and agree with you. However in order to accept this you must also accept that crusades were not Christian and Bush is not capitalist (well in this case it is Marx's word, but according to real capitalists).
yes but in the story of the bible, the destruction of cities of non believers is not ever looked down upon by god. so why were the crusades not christian?

[gilhyle]

Ultimately, a Christian is someone who believes that the salvation of his/her own soul is more important than anything or anyone. You just can't trust 'em.

[Hegemonicretribution]

Remember the bible was the work of men, it is interpreted, but the bible itself is also an interpretation. The scholars that wrote it will not go against the institution they operated in, did Stalin not claim he was acting for communism? Neither God nor Marx got to comment on what was done in their name.

The old testamment especially I agree is overtly violent, but essentially what makes Christianity is the new testament. So because this violence was carried out in the name of God, is it the notion of God that is wrong? I am not Christian or religious all I am doing is drawing parellels between the justification of terrible acts in the name of God and communism. To use what has been done in religion's name as a criticism of religion is to accept the same for communism, personally my dislike of religion is for other reasons, same for capitalism, we need to stop the double standard bullshit. If communism should deserve fair treatment, then we have to apply it to everything, don't worry it is still easily refuted.

[dragonoverlord]

If you are a communist then dont insult relegion have a arguement and since christianity offers little to none evidence except a corrupted book to defend them you should have a polite arguement and excpect a easy victory if you know what your talkling about.

If you know the people your have a arguement with and with your knowledge and there blind faith you win you may insult there faith.

Good luck