Israel,You guys should actually love it.

[Korol Aferist]

I don't know why so much of you guys hate it but you all are wrong about Israel.
Plus it's the only welfare/socialist state in the middle east another reason to love it and I forgot it's a full function welfare/socialist state.

I want to know if there are any Zionists here besides me ?
or people that support Israel?

[Reds]

There is diffrance bettwen a welfare state and a socialist state.

[BuyOurEverything]

Depends what you mean by 'zionist' and 'support'.

[JC1]

Israel is comprador.

If by Zionist you mean suppourter of Hebrew natinol self determination, then I'm a Zionist. If you mean suppourter of Hebrew Immigration to the territory between the river and the sea, then im a Zionist. If by suppourter of a US Pupput Regime and Arab Natinol Oppression, then I'm no Zionist.

[Intifada]

Just one reason why any socialist should not support the state of Israel:

It is racist.

[Dark Exodus]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2005, 03:22 PM
Just one reason why any socialist should not support the state of Israel:

It is racist.
I agree, though the surrounding countries are not exactly devoid of this trait.

There are many, many reasons to dislike Isreal.

[Free Palestine]

I can't help but laugh when someone who calls themselves a socialist says that they are also a Zionist. It should be made clear that Socialism and Racism, of whatever variety (I.E. Zionism) are incompatible and contradictory. You either believe in class struggle or racial struggle. There is no half-way house.

[JC1]

It should be made clear that Socialism and Racism, of whatever variety (I.E. Zionism) are incompatible and contradictory.

So, you oppose the existance of a Jewish State inbetween the river and the sea ?

[bcbm]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2005, 03:37 PM

It should be made clear that Socialism and Racism, of whatever variety (I.E. Zionism) are incompatible and contradictory.

So, you oppose the existance of a Jewish State inbetween the river and the sea ?
Yes. Racist states have no place on this planet, it should be a multiethnic state run by all of the groups, not just one.

[Free Palestine]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2005, 09:37 PM

It should be made clear that Socialism and Racism, of whatever variety (I.E. Zionism) are incompatible and contradictory.

So, you oppose the existance of a Jewish State inbetween the river and the sea ?
It is Jewish mythology alone that confers legitimacy of sorts to the Jewish "right of return." There is no system of law which converts a perceived claim by an individual or group into a legally enforceable right. Nor does any system of law confer on any people a perpetual right to a country they (may have) once inhabited, much less one they left (or claim to have left) some eighteen hundred years ago. In effect, then, you are faulting me for not accepting Jewish mythology as the law for the Palestinians. Should I? I do not recognize that "right." On this account, you will have to acquit me. I think you will agree that self-destructive recognitions do not come naturally to most people.

[JC1]

Leme break down FP's responce.


It is Jewish mythology alone that confers legitimacy of sorts to the Jewish "right of return."

No Myth. It's a historical fact that the Jew's originate in Palistine. Indeed, modern day Palistinian's are Jew's who were Culturaly and Religously assimilated by Islamic Arab's.



There is no system of law which converts a perceived claim by an individual or group into a legally enforceable right.

Jew's make up 60-70 % of the pop. between the sea and the river. Im not asking you to accept anything except every nation's right to self determination.


Nor does any system of law confer on any people a perpetual right to a country they (may have) once inhabited, much less one they left (or claim to have left) some eighteen hundred years ago. In effect, then, you are faulting me for not accepting Jewish mythology as the law for the Palestinians.

Once again "Jew's make up 60-70 % of the pop. between the sea and the river. Im not asking you to accept anything except every nation's right to self determination."



Yes. Racist states have no place on this planet, it should be a multiethnic state run by all of the groups, not just one.

I could conceviably advocate a one-state option, except most Jew's and Arab's dont want one state. And they are intitled to deciede there natinol futures.

No one has ansewered my question. My question is do you or do you not recognize Israel's right to exist. Right to exist independent of Palistine. And remember, Israel's right to exist dosent mean that Palistine dosent deserve to exit.

[citizen_snips]

I would oppose Israel's right to exist if it allows only one religion and/or one ethnicity. Even proscribing a majority ethnicity isn't right. Basic human decency leads me to oppose how Sharon (and the like) have acted towards the indigenous people of Palestine. I'm certainly not anti-Jewish in my outlook and I don't know anyone who is out of the many people I know who support Palestinians.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

No Myth. It's a historical fact that the Jew's originate in Palistine. Indeed, modern day Palistinian's are Jew's who were Culturaly and Religously assimilated by Islamic Arab's.

So? some of my ancestors came from scotland, does that give me the right to claim land in the glens? No.

I don't see why Jews should recieve special treatment in this case.

No, Isreal has no right to exist. But at the same time, Jews currently living in Isreal deserve no ill treatment.

[BuyOurEverything]

This really seems pointless to say, as no one actually takes little things like 'facts' and 'common sense' into effect when discussing the Israel/Palestine situation. However, as much as it would be great for countries to not exist at all, that's not going to happen any time soon. I fail to see why Israel has less of a 'right to exist' than Palestine. Yes, their government has racist policies, but so do most governments around the world and no one is challenging their very right to exist as a nation. I'd go more into detail on this, but I've done it so many times before and no one even cares, so fuck it.

[JC1]

The Right of Israel to exist dosent diminish the state of Palistine to exist.


So?

Exactly. It has nothin' to do with my argument. What Im sayin is that I want a state of Israel for my Jewish people to live in. And let's not forget now that the reason for most people living there is that alot of them were pushed out of the home countrie's (EG Yemin, Iraq, Ethiopia). It happen's that we want the land we already have. I dont want more then the 67' border's.


I don't see why Jews should recieve special treatment in this case.

But why is it diffrent for the grandchildren of Palistinian's living in Syria/Jordan/Iraq, who indeed are not natinoly distinct from there host's ? Let Palistine have its state and let us have our's.

Why is the Right to self determination only wrong for Jew's ? If the Israeli people dont want one state, why should it be imposed ?

[Concilio-et-Impetu]

Because "self determnation" in this case involves rapid and hostile expansion by the jews into land that is not theirs. Theyve been doing it since the end of WWII.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Exactly. It has nothin' to do with my argument. What Im sayin is that I want a state of Israel for my Jewish people to live in.

And I want state of Hibernia for my Celtic people to live in. Can you see how ridiculous this argument is?

[Korol Aferist]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2005, 03:22 PM
Just one reason why any socialist should not support the state of Israel:

It is racist.
No,Have you heard of kneeset ?
Bullshit, that's racist, Israel got all the basic freedoms for everyone.
I think you're the one that is racist.

[Korol Aferist]

Originally posted by Free [email protected] 23 2005, 07:15 PM
I can't help but laugh when someone who calls themselves a socialist says that they are also a Zionist. It should be made clear that Socialism and Racism, of whatever variety (I.E. Zionism) are incompatible and contradictory. You either believe in class struggle or racial struggle. There is no half-way house.
Zionism is not Racism.
You could be a zionist and a non-jew.

[Lord Testicles]

This is why i dislike Isreal (http://www.thenausea.com/israel.html) not to mention that it is a U.S puppet and it oppresses the Palistinians

[Korol Aferist]

Originally posted by black banner black gun+Sep 23 2005, 09:50 PM--> (black banner black gun @ Sep 23 2005, 09:50 PM)
[email protected] 23 2005, 03:37 PM

It should be made clear that Socialism and Racism, of whatever variety (I.E. Zionism) are incompatible and contradictory.

So, you oppose the existance of a Jewish State inbetween the river and the sea ?
Yes. Racist states have no place on this planet, it should be a multiethnic state run by all of the groups, not just one. [/b]
But it is.
It's the only place in the middle east where a muslim arab could vote (has the full rights).
It's the only place where an arab could have all the basic freedoms.
Check out the politics and how the government works from regular non-socialist sites.

[Korol Aferist]

Originally posted by [email protected] 24 2005, 01:38 PM
This is why i dislike Isreal (http://www.thenausea.com/israel.html) not to mention that it is a U.S puppet and it oppresses the Palistinians
I could show you pictures of Israelis being tortured by Palestinians.
And the pictures of israelis torturing palestinians would be nothing compared to the Israelis being tortured by Palestinians.


And those could be fake or half fake this is the fuckin' internet and you guys really not backing yourselves up.

[Lord Testicles]

I could show you pictures of Israelis being tortured by Palestinians.

go on then.

EDIT: and what about the oppression of the Palistinians im sure there not blowing them selfs up for no reason? what are your views on this?

[slim]

The Jewish people, (who i must state arent even from the area now called Israel but in turn had immigrated there themselves) should not have exclusive rights to the land they now occupy.

The Palestinians have as much right as them. If you want to get technical then why dont we give the Iraqi government control of Israel because of the Assyrian and Babylonian conquests. It is ill conceived to justify the Israeli occupation on grounds that the Jews were one of a wave of many immigrant peoples.

The state of Israel should be democratic. It should be independent from American influence and it should be able to control its own destiny.

Do chara,

Slim. Sil Anmachadhra.

[JC1]

You guy's cant read can you ?

The demand for jewish Self Determination mean's too thing's; The establishment of an palistine state based on the 1967 border's (Or a tweaked up version) and getting rid of US influence's in Israel.

[bcbm]

I could conceviably advocate a one-state option, except most Jew's and Arab's dont want one state. And they are intitled to deciede there natinol futures.

Whether they want it or not at the moment, its the only way I can see a lasting peace being formed. There can't be peace as long as Palestinian territories are subnations controlled by the Israeli military, which is what any sort of "two state solution" will mean at this point. Both groups need to realize the other is not going away and they need to learn to live with each other. This means ending the occupation, ending the racist laws, allowing the right of return and allowing the OT to become part of a single state and be rebuilt.


No one has ansewered my question. My question is do you or do you not recognize Israel's right to exist. Right to exist independent of Palistine. And remember, Israel's right to exist dosent mean that Palistine dosent deserve to exit.

Its a loaded question, I think. I recognize the right of all the people currently living in Palestine to have a state they choose that is fair to all peoples. I do not recognize the right of any group to form exclusive ethnic states that deny freedom to others.


But it is.
It's the only place in the middle east where a muslim arab could vote (has the full rights).
It's the only place where an arab could have all the basic freedoms.

Intermarriage is illegal and the people in the OT have no rights.

[Intifada]

(Korol Aferist)

No,Have you heard of kneeset ?
Bullshit, that's racist, Israel got all the basic freedoms for everyone.
I think you're the one that is racist.

First of all, I think it is quite obvious that you are a Zionist troll, trying to waste my time. Nonetheless, I shall respond to your lies that the state of Israel is "not racist."

As for your ridiculous claim that I am racist, I would like to see some evidence that led you to that intelligent conclusion, please.

The Zionist project always intended on creating an exclusively Jewish state, in which Jews would be superior to the Palestinian Arab untermenschen.

That is why Palestinian refugees are not allowed to return to their homes, whilst any Jew from any country in the world is allowed to migrate to Israel without any problems.

That is why non-Jews are restricted in terms of how much land they can own, and in which places they can own land at all, thanks to laws granting preferential treatment to Jewish residents.

93% of the land within the state of Israel is controlled by the state and is formally known as "Israel lands." This extensive territory has been acquired by a continual process of land expropriation from Arab owners, that has systematically reduced Arab land ownership to cement Jewish control over all parts of the country.

To further the goal of expanding the Jewish population, the state has maintained a policy of continually establishing new settlements for Jews only. These settlements have had the added purpose of acting as wedges among concentrations of Palestinian Arab communities.

The establishment of these settlements is coordinated principally by the Jewish Agency, rather than the government, which provides houses, infrastructure and also the facilities for basic services.

These settlements are established for Jews only (even when they are on public land) and Palestinian Arab citizens are not allowed to move there. There are no parallel settlements established for Palestinian Arab citizens.

If that is not racist enough for you, then read about the racist marriage laws that Israel boasts.

Or just research the discrimination against Palestinian children in Israeli schools. (http://www.hrw.org/reports/2001/israel2/)

Or, alternatively I could easily give you the many racist statements made by countless Israeli leaders.

[Eastside Revolt]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2005, 10:22 PM
No one has ansewered my question. My question is do you or do you not recognize Israel's right to exist. Right to exist independent of Palistine. And remember, Israel's right to exist dosent mean that Palistine dosent deserve to exit.
I recognize no "nation's" right to exist. However if the the only way for a specific ethnic group, to gain freedon from the tyranny of another, is to form a nation, then so be it.

However this does not apply to Isreal because there is nowhwere between "the river and the sea" where jews are being opressed.

The Tsleil Watuuth nation has a "right to exist" because all over there ancestrtal territory they are repressed.

[Free Palestine]

No one has ansewered my question. My question is do you or do you not recognize Israel's right to exist.

Why do you keep talking about Israel's "right" to exist? The 'right to exist' is something that doesn't exist in international law. No state recognizes the 'right' of another state to 'exist. Mexico does not recognize the 'right' of the United States to exist within its present borders (which happen to include 1/3 of Mexico). In fact in the international system, there is a notion of recognition of a state, but there is no notion of the recognition of the 'legitimacy' of a state. To call on the Palestinians to accept this new concept is to ask them to accept not only that there's a state in an area which they regard as their home, but to recognize the right of that state to have dispossessed them. Now of course they're not going to accept that, nor should they, there's no such thing in international affairs, and the effort to try to obtain it is pointless and absurd.


Why is the Right to self determination only wrong for Jew's ? I

The right to "self-determination" has never included the right to live in someone else's house, after taking it by force or fraud. Nor does it include the right to set up house in territories that are conquered and occupied as the result of military conflict. International law expressly forbids such a thing. And furthermore, those who insist on the right of Jews to live wherever they choose, by definition deny the same right to Palestinians, who cannot live in the place of their choosing, or even in the homes that were once theirs.


You guy's cant read can you ?

The demand for jewish Self Determination mean's too thing's; The establishment of an palistine state based on the 1967 border's (Or a tweaked up version) and getting rid of US influence's in Israel.

Actually the official goal of Zionism is and always has been the complete explusion of all Arabs from Israel. It is indeed a racist ideology since its purpose is to create a Jewish majority in Palestine. That's why the Jews have been illegally placing settlements in land that isn't legally part of Israel. If you don't believe me go read the work by Zionists yourself, specifically Explusion of the Palestinians, which is based on Israel's own declassified government documents.


Israel got all the basic freedoms for everyone...It's the only place in the middle east where a muslim arab could vote (has the full rights).

This is almost too absurd to merit comment. Israel has no constitution, and its basic law includes no right to equality. No bill of rights. No guarantees of things like free speech, freedom of assembly and due process of law.

It is legally defined as a "Jewish nation." As such, Jews are given special privileges for jobs, loans and land ownership, and Jews from anywhere in the world are given preference in immigration, extended automatic citizenship upon coming to Israel over and above longtime Arab residents. Non-Jews are restricted in terms of how much land they can own, and in which places they can own land at all, thanks to laws granting preferential treatment to Jewish residents.

Political candidates who espouse the belief that Israel should be a nation with equal rights for all and not a "Jewish nation" are not even allowed to hold office, or even run for eleciton. Even the Israeli Supreme Court has acknowledged the use of torture against suspected “terrorists” and other “enemies” of the Jewish state.

For you, it is apparently sufficient that Israel has an electoral system, and that Arabs have the right to vote in those elections (though just how equally this right is protected is of course a different matter). The fact that one can't vote for a candidate who questions the special Jewish nature of the state, because such candidates can't run for or hold office, must strike you most as irrelevant — hardly enough for you to call into question Israel's democratic credentials.

If what you see in Israel is democracy, then I'd like to ask you what does fascism look like?


It happen's that we want the land we already have.

"It happens that we want the land we already stole and continue to steal like Zionist thugs"

Fixed.



There is no system of law which converts a perceived claim by an individual or group into a legally enforceable right.
Jew's make up 60-70 % of the pop. between the sea and the river.

I fail to see how this contradicts my statement.




Nor does any system of law confer on any people a perpetual right to a country they (may have) once inhabited, much less one they left (or claim to have left) some eighteen hundred years ago. In effect, then, you are faulting me for not accepting Jewish mythology as the law for the Palestinians.
Once again "Jew's make up 60-70 % of the pop. between the sea and the river.

And I "once again" fail to see how this contradicts my statements.


And let's not forget now that the reason for most people living there is that alot of them were pushed out of the home countrie's (EG Yemin, Iraq, Ethiopia).

Palestine is not the only destination for Jewish refugees.

[Zangetsu]

My 2 cents:

I think Israel has always spoken with a colonial voice in the region, and as such it has never found itself at peace with its neighbours. People feel cheated and abused though unjudicious arrangements facilitated by power imbalances. I think perhaps the Palestinians have as much chance at gaining an equitable outcome as the prolaterian have at usurping capitalism... Perhaps it is only me that sees the parallels in these 2 scenarios. I hope i live to see the conclusion of this contention.

[RedAnarchist]

If the Jewish get Palestine, then -

The Native Americans get the US and Canada
The Welsh get England
The Aborigines get Australia
The Maoris get New Zealand


Oh, wait. That will never happen, will it? It's the usual double standards from the likes of the US and UK.

[BuyOurEverything]

Why do you keep talking about Israel's "right" to exist? The 'right to exist' is something that doesn't exist in international law. No state recognizes the 'right' of another state to 'exist. Mexico does not recognize the 'right' of the United States to exist within its present borders (which happen to include 1/3 of Mexico). In fact in the international system, there is a notion of recognition of a state, but there is no notion of the recognition of the 'legitimacy' of a state. To call on the Palestinians to accept this new concept is to ask them to accept not only that there's a state in an area which they regard as their home, but to recognize the right of that state to have dispossessed them. Now of course they're not going to accept that, nor should they, there's no such thing in international affairs, and the effort to try to obtain it is pointless and absurd.

That's the biggest load of BS I've ever heard. Nations don't recognize each others' right to exist? Recognizing a nation's right to exist is a new concept? Even if there isn't a basis for it in international law as you claim (of which I'm doubtful), it's only because for every other country in existance it's not an issue. No other country has its very right to exist challenged.

The US is racist, has been more so in the past, occupies land that historically belonged to others, but I don't see anyone challenging its 'right to exist'. Ya, fuck the government, but no one's suggesting that the US should cease to exist as a country.

[Free Palestine]

As usual, you are wrong on virtually all accounts. There was already a general international agreement (including the Arab states and the PLO) in the 1970s that Israel should have the rights of every state in the international system. They accepted Israel's existence decades ago.

The "right to exist," however, is an invention. No state has a 'right' to exist, and no one demands such a right. For example, the United States has no such right. Mexico doesn’t respect the right of the United States to exist, sitting on half of Mexico, which was conquered in war. They do grant the U.S. rights in the international system, but not the legitimacy of those rights. There's a difference.

Calling on the Palestinians to recognize Israel's abstract "right to exist" is absurd. Why should they accept that? Why should anyone accept it? The Palestinians aren't going to accept the legitimacy of its existence and the legitimacy of their dispossession, nor should they. This absurd demand is just another in a long series of US/Israeli efforts to prevent negotiations and a diplomatic settlement by raising the barrier to something that nobody's going to accept.

Please, go read a book.

[Loknar]

If history has taught us anything it is that the Jewish/Hebrew people (I state this on ethnic, not religous lines) need a state of their own.

Israel it self is a complicated matter, and I think it is the height of arrogance to think 1 side is entirely correct. You could show me pictures of Israeli's executing Palestinians, I could in turn show you what happened to those 3 Israelis who took a wrong turn in the west bank a few years back.

Should the Palestinians have their own state? Of course.

Israel has left the Gaza strip (btw, the Palestinians burnt all the Temples, good going. They could have used those as Mosques), some, but not all of the west bank will be evacuated eventually..

We are at a point where Israel is here to stay and they aren’t giving up any land. (Israeli Proper)

Take a look at the Pakistani Defense Forum, allot of them, Muslims them selves, have no respect for Arabs because of the suicide bombing. In their own minds a real man, a real freedom fighter, takes a rifle and fights.

And show me a system of justice in the West Bank or Gaza Strip….there might be something now that that pig Arafat finally died (of course he had a shit load of money to hand to his wife, who her self is some dumb ***** who would “give her daughter if girls were blowing them selves up”)

[Free Palestine]

If history has taught us anything it is that the Jewish/Hebrew people (I state this on ethnic, not religous lines) need a state of their own.

Not if it entails subjugating, humiliating, oppressing, massacring, occupying, as well as dispossesssing millions of indigenous inhabitants by Zionist terror gangs.. as "history has taught us" Israel is guilty of.


Israel it self is a complicated matter, and I think it is the height of arrogance to think 1 side is entirely correct.

I think it is the height of arrogance that Zionists can contend they have some god-given right to return to a land where their distant ancestors lives thousands of years ago, and deny the Palestinians their current legal right to return, where many of them lived at a early stage in their lives.


Israel has left the Gaza strip (btw, the Palestinians burnt all the Temples, good going. They could have used those as Mosques), some, but not all of the west bank will be evacuated eventually..

The fact that Sharon 'withdrew' from Gaza is meaningless. The Israelis still have complete control of entrance from and out of Gaza, as well as control of it's airspace and coastal waters. So technically it was 'vacated' but it is still occupied. The Palestinians got nothing out of it. Either the jailers will be on the outside or the inside, it's still a concentration camp.

You must have also forgotten that the vast majority of settlers are in the West Bank (home to 230,000+ Zionist vermin) where settlements are being expanded. The Gaza 'pullout' was integral to annex much of the West Bank. They never wanted Gaza. That criminal Sharon is just committed to keeping what is useful in the occupied territories and confining the Palestinians in those areas for which Israel has no use.

[Morpheus]

Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2005, 06:55 PM
The US is racist, has been more so in the past, occupies land that historically belonged to others, but I don't see anyone challenging its 'right to exist'. Ya, fuck the government, but no one's suggesting that the US should cease to exist as a country.
I have advocated the abolition of the United States for years now. I advocated its abolition even before I joined the radical left.

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

The problem is that while many Zionists who look to not be complete idiots and racist motherfuckers, "say" that they advocate a two-state plan or a "roadmap" or whatever you crazy gringos are calling it. However, Israel's policies are rendering the 2-state solution impossible. While they gave back Gaza, they are constantly assimilating the West Bank and East Jerusalem. This will eventually end the Arabic presence in Jerusalem, "cantonize" the Arabic groups, and put an end to any possibilities of a two-state solution.

[bombeverything]

I want to know if there are any Zionists here besides me ?

I hope not.


Check out the politics and how the government works from regular non-socialist sites.

Where do you suggest? Zionist sites?


Israel it self is a complicated matter, and I think it is the height of arrogance to think 1 side is entirely correct. You could show me pictures of Israeli's executing Palestinians, I could in turn show you what happened to those 3 Israelis who took a wrong turn in the west bank a few years back.

So what? The Palestinians are fighting to get their land back. They were wronged in the past, they are angry -- and rightly so. Their reaction is certainly understandable. Until this past wrong is recognised, the Palestinians have no real alternative but violence.


Israel has left the Gaza strip (btw, the Palestinians burnt all the Temples, good going. They could have used those as Mosques), some, but not all of the west bank will be evacuated eventually..

The evacuation from the Gaza strip was a land swap, not a land evacuation. Also, correct me if I am wrong but I just read today that the Israeli government are already threatening to reoccupy the Gaza strip. I wouldn't be celebrating just yet.

[Xvall]

I agree, though the surrounding countries are not exactly devoid of this trait.

And that's why we don't like those either.

[Loknar]

Originally posted by Morpheus+Sep 27 2005, 02:44 AM--> (Morpheus @ Sep 27 2005, 02:44 AM)
[email protected] 26 2005, 06:55 PM
The US is racist, has been more so in the past, occupies land that historically belonged to others, but I don't see anyone challenging its 'right to exist'. Ya, fuck the government, but no one's suggesting that the US should cease to exist as a country.
I have advocated the abolition of the United States for years now. I advocated its abolition even before I joined the radical left. [/b]
If you live in America, then get the fuck out. If you hate this country so damn much leave.

IF you are counting on a government change, you will have to wait about 50-100 years before americas turns socialist.

[bombeverything]

Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2005, 04:23 AM
If you live in America, then get the fuck out. If you hate this country so damn much leave.


I am so sick of this argument. Leave a country if you disagree with their government? Are you an idiot?

[Loknar]

Not if it entails subjugating, humiliating, oppressing, massacring, occupying, as well as dispossesssing millions of indigenous inhabitants by Zionist terror gangs.. as "history has taught us" Israel is guilty of.

Of course, and this is why i think %100 segregation is needed between these 2 people. split em up and give both a state.



I think it is the height of arrogance that Zionists can contend they have some god-given right to return to a land where their distant ancestors lives thousands of years ago, and deny the Palestinians their current legal right to return, where many of them lived at a early stage in their lives.


It is also the height of arrogance to think that blowing your ass up in a market place, killing innocent women and children, is a viable method to achieve independence.

Lets talk about different classes of people, do you see rich Palestinians blowing them selves up? No, it is usually a poor Palestinian who is a refugee, egged on by rich people who send their kids to Europe to become doctors.

You act like the Arabs are ass clean.

How many Arabs are there?
How many Jews are there?

How much land does Israel have?
How much land do the Arabs have?

I frankly think the Palestinians should loose a portions of the west bank if it suits Israeli defense interests.

[Loknar]

Originally posted by bombeverything+Sep 27 2005, 04:30 AM--> (bombeverything @ Sep 27 2005, 04:30 AM)
[email protected] 27 2005, 04:23 AM
If you live in America, then get the fuck out. If you hate this country so damn much leave.


I am so sick of this argument. Leave a country if you disagree with their government? Are you an idiot? [/b]
Well why not?

Certainly there are better places if this place is such a shit box.

There must be something keeping you all here? Perhaps its the high standards of living, (depending where you live, and what your skin color is) the opportunity?

No doubt some of you are on financial aid provided by this capitalist government....

[bombeverything]

Or maybe it is just where we -- oh I don't know -- happened to be born? What you fail to understand is that we are opposed to the U.S government, not it's people. Nonetheless you seem incapable of separating people from their government so this concept would probably make little sense to you.

And better living standards for who? Opportunity for who? We wish to abolish capitalism. How is leaving the country going to achieve that goal?

What you are basically saying is "agree with the status quo or fuck off". We have a right to live in whatever country we want to, and we also have a right to express our opinion. People disagree, get over it.

[Free Palestine]

split em up and give both a state.

The general concensus in Israel's power-elite is that the Palestinians should not have a state. This has been repeated time after time by the hawkish figures in Sharon's gang... Netenyahu to mention just one. This desire to crush any idea of a viable, independent Palestinian state can be seen in Israel's settlement expansion and planned annexation of the West Bank.


It is also the height of arrogance to think that blowing your ass up in a market place, killing innocent women and children, is a viable method to achieve independence.

Yeah. I mean, the Palestinian suicide bomber, for no reason whatsoever, is responsible for creating all the violence and Israel's brutal retaliation. It's like the Palestinians are living in complete freedom without an ounce of oppression, and for no reason at all the suicide bombers began to strike! :rolleyes:


do you see rich Palestinians blowing them selves up?

Probably because nearly half the population are living in poverty on less than $2 a day. All of it imposed by Israel, of course. Look at this (http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=274740) report by the World Bank on Palestinians in povery, which cites Israel's "closure" policies — a series of restrictions on the movement of Palestinian people and products meant to boost Israeli security — as the main cause of economic hardship in the West Bank and Gaza Strip.

Israel also controls about 80 percent of all Palestinian groundwater resources even though they have no legitimate claim. On top of that, the Palestinians have strict quotas to follow and they often don't even have enough water for drinking while Jewish settlers (who are there illegaly) get all the fresh water they need. The wall they building restricts water access even more.

The Palestinian Water Crisis (http://www.palestinecenter.org/cpap/pubs/19990818ib.html)


Leave a country if you disagree with their government? Are you an idiot?

Indeed, he is.


If you live in America, then get the fuck out. If you hate this country so damn much leave.

I wouldn't want to be subjected to our foreign policy.

[Xvall]

If you live in America, then get the fuck out. If you hate this country so damn much leave. IF you are counting on a government change, you will have to wait about 50-100 years before americas turns socialist.

Certainly there are better places if this place is such a shit box.

Well then, maybe the mercinaries in Iraq should get out! If people didn't like Sadam Hussein they should just leave and move to France or something, right?

And that Martain Luther King was a bastard too! He should have just gone to Canada if he though America was that bad!

And WTF was that Washington dude's problem? If he didn't like living in Colonial Britain he should have immigrated to Mexico or something if it was that bad!

[bcbm]

Of course, and this is why i think %100 segregation is needed between these 2 people. split em up and give both a state.

Any sort of segregation would mean continuing to deny the right of return, which would do nothing to end the violence. And I doubt any segregation plan (more so than the one already in place) would really give Palestinians much autonomy.


It is also the height of arrogance to think that blowing your ass up in a market place, killing innocent women and children, is a viable method to achieve independence.

Terrorism is the result of the occupation, not the other way around. And I don't think anybody here is cheering on suicide bombing or suggesting it works.

[Phalanx]

Originally posted by Free [email protected] 27 2005, 12:15 AM
You must have also forgotten that the vast majority of settlers are in the West Bank (home to 230,000+ Zionist vermin) where settlements are being expanded. The Gaza 'pullout' was integral to annex much of the West Bank. They never wanted Gaza. That criminal Sharon is just committed to keeping what is useful in the occupied territories and confining the Palestinians in those areas for which Israel has no use.
I know the occupation is a hard thing to live through. But you can't just call 230,000 people vermin. Not all move there just because they believe "God gave it to them". Many come for financial reasons. Would it be okay for me to say any Arabs living in Darfur are vermin? You're just laying collective guilt. The world is not in black and white.

[viva le revolution]

Allow mw to elaborate on this arguement.
The whole basis for the state of Israel is that it is the 'promised land'.
Promised by whom? Promised by God. In the great book. Israel as a homeland for the Jews and ONLY jews.
A few disgreemwnts here, 1. As a communist, religious arguements like that hold no ground whatsoever.
2.If you want a homeland for Jews in an area dominated by Arabs, what to do? Kick the Arabs out, just like the Philistines. It's not very complicated.
3. Israel's other line is that Palestine was their home even before the Arabs and they hold precedence over it because it has been their home for centuries.
My question: weren't the Philistines living there even before the Israeli's? So according to that arguement, the 'philistines' should justifiably kick the jews out right?
4. It isn't anything about collective guilt, it is legitimate opposition to a succession of brutal regimes and an inhuman policy. As regards what kind of opposition, let me give you an example, In the seventies, after the PLO was founded as a secular organization, another organization was operating side by side, HAMAS, until then they only restricted their activities to distributing food and education(islamic)amongst the Palestinians. In an effort to weaken the PLO israel began funding Hamas covertly and supported them as an alternative to the PLO. In an effort to splinter the Palestinian independance movement. That idiotic policy has led to today's situation. HAMAS is merely the brainchild of Israeli intelligence and idiocy in Israel's corridors of power.
5. Israel simply does not constitute a land for the Jews, it is also a mercenary state for the U.S. It is a technologically competent nation in the middle of the middle eat to keep the arab states in check. All throughout the decades, israeli forces have played a crucial part in suppressing revolutionary movements in latin america and africa. Israel has sent trainers to the regimes, financial and military aid alongwith new weapons. In Nicaragua they were in the same boat with the Cuban emigrants, in providing training, and sometimes taking an active part in battle. The list does not end there. Therefore as a communist i oppose the state of Israel for it's mercenary functions and historical precedent for suppressing revolutionary movements across latin america and africa. Including weapons sales to India helping the indian government in both weapons and expertise to suppress a still-ongoing communist( Maoist) struggle.
6. During the afghan war, the israelis covertly supplied weapons to the taliban and mujahiddeen fighters alongwith the u.s through Pakistan. to stop the soviet advance.it was through this that islamic fundamentalist groups gained strength and were born on the world stage. Hypocrisy, no?
It is for these reasons that i not only oppose the state of Israel but also refuse to accept Zionism as a legitimate political philosophy.