Roe vs Wade

[MKS]

With the new Chief Justice all but confirmed, an old issue is once again surfacing. Roe. vs Wade and whether the conservative court will allow a repeal of the decision and law.

Personaly I dont think it will be repealed since Roe vs Wade speaks to a privacy issue, and since most conservatives are for smaller government and less government intrusion into personal matters. (unless those personal matters happen to be homosexual related). Also Roberts has a respect for precedent, meaning once the court had decided an isses he considers it closed.

However I do not see the problem with repealing Roe. v Wade. Because the decision was not to legalize abortion, but to establish that the Federal Government's decision trumps that of the State governments. Before the decision, some states did leagize abortion while others didnt. The decision made it clear that the State governments had no right to A. Intrude on personal medical matters and b. Declare thier laws and decisions over those of the Federal government.

If it is repealed the states will be left to decide if abortion should remain legal.

I would like to hear other opinions on the matter.

[LSD]

However I do not see the problem with repealing Roe. v Wade.

The problem is that it would make abortion illegal in about half of the United States.

The problem is that it would mean that the rich could travel across state lines while the poor would be forced to either have the baby or attempt back alley abortions.

The problem is that people will die. :angry:


Before the decision, some states did leagize abortion while others didnt.

That's right. And you want to go back to that? :blink:


The decision made it clear that the State governments had no right to A. Intrude on personal medical matters

Yes.


and b. Declare thier laws and decisions over those of the Federal government.

Not "their" laws, constitutional laws.

Ever heard of something called Brown v. Board of Education? Was that wrong? Should that have been left up to the states too?

I know what George Wallace would say... :angry:

[Che NJ]

I used to be pro-choice, but the baby killing thing is kinda getting to me. For me, whatever happens, happens. I am indifferent to it. I would only support the descision because it is viewed as a women's rights issue and because the back-alley abortion thing disturbs me. A couple months ago, I think it was out in minesota, or someplace where abortion is illegal, there was a teenage couple who caused a miscarrage with a baseball bat. I don't want to know how, but it pushed me bck in the pro-choice direction.

So, I don't have any strong feelings for either side anymore.

[Commie Girl]

:angry: This is disgusting.... :angry: why would people want to move backwards? Putting many womens lives at risk?

What centruy is this? :angry: :( Fuck the religious nuts.


but the baby killing thing is kinda getting to me Ya, the woman killing thing gets me too

[Che NJ]

This is disgusting.... why would people want to move backwards? Putting many womens lives at risk?

What centruy is this? I am too upset Fuck the religious nuts.
You're right about the women's lives in danger. Nobody should ever prevent an abortion when a woman's life is at risk. But, forgive people for not wanting to hurt children too, you don't have to be religious to be against abortion.

[Commie Girl]

Sometimes legally preventing abortion DOES put a womans life at risk!

[Che NJ]

Sometimes legally preventing abortion DOES put a womans life at risk!
I'm not saying it doesn't but not in all cases. that's why I said:

You're right about the women's lives in danger. Nobody should ever prevent an abortion when a woman's life is at risk.

[BuyOurEverything]

OK, I've said this before but obviously I have to say it again. You're either for all abortion or you're against all abortion. There is no morally consistant position in between. If you actually believe that fetuses are children, how could you possibly support the legality of a woman killing her child to possibly aleviate health concerns? Do you believe that a person should be able to kill another person in order to preserve their health or life? It's fucking retarded.

Of course that's all bullshit anyways, because fetuses are NOT people, therefore there is nothing wrong with destroying them under ANY circumstance.

Contrary to popular belief, abortion is not a woman's rights issue, it's a scientific one.

[MKS]

The problem is that it would mean that the rich could travel across state lines while the poor would be forced to either have the baby or attempt back alley abortions.

True. However non-profit groups and other organizations could set up systems and instiutions (such as Planned Parenthood) to serve the poor seeking abortions if it is illegal in their state.


Not "their" laws, constitutional laws.

Ever heard of something called Brown v. Board of Education? Was that wrong? Should that have been left up to the states too?

Is abortion really a question of Constiutionality (sp)? I dont think it is, it is a subject never touched upon by the document or the Bill of Rights. A matter such as Abortion, which is an ideal formed by personal belief and principle should not be left to the Federal Government, but to the people of that state. We can hope reason trumps religion and superstition, that logic overides passion, but in some parts of the nation it does not. But why should we stand against the will of the people?
In the matter of Civil Rights Brown v Board of Education; It is clearly obvious it is a different issue, when the basic rights and liberties of an entire group of people are bein suppressed. States rights in that scenario does not overide the power of the Federal government, who should only act as a protector of Liberty and not as an administrator of idealogy or belief.

The issue of States Rights is a subject one, with a different response required for different scenarios.



That's right. And you want to go back to that?

If the people want it, who are we to say they are wrong? Aside from the medical saftey issues which could be easily addressed, the opinion is a clearly moral one. Government should never legislate personal morality.

I am pro-choice, but there is an overwhelming number of people in this nation that are not. Instead of a constant battle, we should let the States decide, then hopefully the religous people can live in one area of the nation and the rest of us in another.

[bcbm]

No government should be legislating women's bodies, whether state, federal or intergalactic. No only should RvW not be repealed, all abortions should be free.

[JC1]

If the people want it, who are we to say they are wrong?

Alot of Iranian's suppourt sharia law, too. Fuck Superstition.

[Commie Girl]

Originally posted by black banner black [email protected] 22 2005, 07:00 PM
No government should be legislating women's bodies, whether state, federal or intergalactic. No only should RvW not be repealed, all abortions should be free.
:angry: What right does the state/govt have to tell women what to do with their bodies? This is barbaric and cruel, and of course they should be covered by health care, like here.

[damian]

umm... ive been reading this site for a while, and not posting, because i dont have time keep up with everything but i had to say something:

are you a fucking communist? are you a fucking thinking person? fetuses are not fucking children! abortion has absolutly nothing to do with killing anything, other than a fucking ball of cells (did you ever scrape the skin cells off of the inside of your fucking mouth?) yeah...

the question is not about states rights or whatever other bourgois bullshit the politicians want to rant about. the question is: are women human beings? do they have a right to controll their own bodies? or are they just incubators? if your going to be a communist, you have to understand that women have a fundamental, fundamental, basic, simple right to controll their own bodies. that is an essential part of liberating humanity. if you deny the right of women to abortion, you are part of keeping the chains on half of humanity.

i know people here are critical of maoism, but the maoist slogans are very much to the point on this issue:
women are not incubators!
break the chains! unleash the fury of women as a mighty force for revolution!
"women hold up half the sky"
-mao
this first post may have been... harsh... but i think it was to the point

-damian

http://www.worldcantwait.org

[Anarchist Freedom]

Im for moving forward not moving backwards.

[bcbm]

Originally posted by Commie Girl+Sep 22 2005, 08:51 PM--> (Commie Girl @ Sep 22 2005, 08:51 PM)
black banner black [email protected] 22 2005, 07:00 PM
No government should be legislating women's bodies, whether state, federal or intergalactic. No only should RvW not be repealed, all abortions should be free.
:angry: What right does the state/govt have to tell women what to do with their bodies? This is barbaric and cruel, and of course they should be covered by health care, like here. [/b]
Are you angrily addressing me? :huh: Because I was saying the same thing.

[bolshevik butcher]

Im pro abortion. I dont see it as baby killing because its not a person yet. If we're gonna get caught up on life issues, then those agianst abortion shouldnt eat meat, or swat flies, thats life as well.

[LSD]

Is abortion really a question of Constiutionality (sp)?

Have you even read Roe v. Wade?


True. However non-profit groups and other organizations could set up systems and instiutions (such as Planned Parenthood) to serve the poor seeking abortions if it is illegal in their state.

No they couldn't.

It's illegal to set up an organization designed to transport people across state lines to commit an act illegal in the state of origin.


In the matter of Civil Rights Brown v Board of Education; It is clearly obvious it is a different issue, when the basic rights and liberties of an entire group of people are bein suppressed.

...you mean like women?

If anything abortion is more fundamental than Brown. That was only about the right to attend specific schools, this is about the right to control your own body.

How can you support federal intervention against segregation but not against anti-abortion legislation? Both are attempts by local governments to impose community moral standards on disenfranchised segments of their population.


States rights in that scenario does not overide the power of the Federal government, who should only act as a protector of Liberty

Which is what we're talking about.

Abortion is a matter of personal liberty. The personal liberty to whatever the fuck you want to your own body.


If the people want it, who are we to say they are wrong?

What kind of post-modern subjectivist crap is that!?

If the "people want" to make homosexuality illegal, should we stand by and allow it?

When fundamental rights are suppressed because of superstition and stupidity, we have a duty to fight for those rights, period.


Government should never legislate personal morality.


But that's exactly what you're proposing!!!

If we "leave it to the states", then the state legislatures will make abortion illegal which is "legislating persona morality"!

It's the laws agsinst abortion that are attempts to impose moral judgments. Striking them down is an act of moral objectivity.

[Ownthink]

You want me to solve all of this?

Look at it this way. Drugs are illegal. Do people still use them? Yes. Now, if they were legal, wouldn't they be safer? More regulated? Easier to control? Yes.

Abortion that is Legal will happen with medicines and doctors. Abortion that is Illegal will STILL happen, albeit with coat hangers and back alleys.

Making something Illegal doesn't mean you stopped it, just made it more unsafe/more difficult.

Keep abortion legal and safe, it's the logical thing to do.

[BeardedBolshevist]

I'm a Canadian, and the statistics in my country are something like a quarter of our pregnancies are aborted. I personally believe this is wrong, not due to any religious convictions, but due to my own judgement. I see much of it as an extension of our consumeristic 'values' or lack thereof in this capitalist society. Why would I say that? Many women abort their children due to the fact that having children would interfere with their careers. How evil is it to kill a child just so that you can maintain a job? I am a man, but i can say that if i got a woman pregnant, I would certainly put my career on hold for my child, humanity is far more important to me than having a 5 didget job. Another thing that i think leads to the problem of abortion in this society is that we use sex as a passtime. We go so far as to consume other people, and comrades, this is not what the revolution is about. This is'nt free love, this is just free sex. Does anybody honestly think that if abortion was illegal, the same numbers would be aborted in the back alley? Lets face facts, the word [COLOR=red]CONVENIENCE comes into play in many (not all, dont get me wrong) cases. That being said, Abortion is no new topic, even Plato and Hippocrates argued about it, its as old as humanity itself. But so is war. Im not saying lets make abortion flat out illegal in all cases, what I am saying is lets look at it not so simplisticly. I feel especially strong about this because I am young. I was born in 1987, and in that year, abortion was completely legal, hence my mother, had she so much as the whim to do so, could have terminated my existance without a second thought. Plus, the basis of the law being "It's my body, it's my choice" is bunk. Could I walk in to a hospital and say "Doctor, for no apparent reason whatsoever, I'd like you to surgically remove my heart. Its my body, its my choice."? The whole topic is very, VERY hot, I understand, and it will probably never be resolved, but refusal to argue about it doesnt help anything, and thats what our politicians are doing. I'm just waiting until i see some commercial for an Abortion Corporation, its only a matter of time. The corporations have sold blatant death before, they will do so again. and please, dont call me pro-life. lets drop the euphamisms and say pro and anti abortion, they sound far less self rightious, wouldnt you agree? The pro-life movement is also bunk, I went to a meeting of theirs once, and it was simply revolting. if i agree one one issue with the masses of the pro-lifers, that is where the similarities end. How can i proove this? Didnt mention god once, now, did I. Just because I lack clear religious affiliation (I'm a devout Agnostic) doesnt mean i lack moral values, mine just are my own, the "morality" of the Christian right is appauling. Bush bombs pregnant Iraqi's, therefore bush is an abortionist executioner with a large special effects budget. Whether you agree or disagree is irrelevent, just speak your mind. I welcome any friendly debate on this topic, and lets proove that even if the right cant, the left can talk about this topic witout calling eachother "misogynistic" or "hell-bound". Thank you for your time.

[Guerrilla22]

First off, the current administration is not actually made up of Republicans, its made up of neo-cons and religious fundamnetalist. Bush is a fundamentalist and he caters to the ultra-right crowd. There is nothing these fanatics would rather see than Roe v. Wade overturned.

Also, I don't see how you can say that if Roe V. Wade were to be overturned, "it wouldn't be a big deal." Lots of feminist and leftist, primarily famous anarchist Emma Goldman campaigned tirelessly and putin centuries of effort in order to get Roe V. Wade. Having it overturned would be a huge step backwards for women's rights in the US.

[Ownthink]

I hope to fuck they don't repeal it.

And I agree about those religious fuckwads. I could care less what you do with that little piece goop, make kool-aid with that shit, I could care less.

As long as it is a parasite feeding off of and depending on the mother's body and resources for surival, she can do whatever she pleases with it.

Besides, outlawing Abortion wouldn't stop it from happening, but would just make it more dangerous when it did happen (like back alley abortions, as was said)

[LSD]

I'm a Canadian, and the statistics in my country are something like a quarter of our pregnancies are aborted. I personally believe this is wrong, not due to any religious convictions, but due to my own judgement.

Why?

More abortions means less unwanted children, less poverty, less abused and neglected children, and less crime.

Sounds pretty fucking good to me!


Many women abort their children due to the fact that having children would interfere with their careers.

You know what the number one cause of female poverty is?

Childbirth.

More than 3/4ths of women on welfare in the US are there because they had a child. These "careers" you're talking about, they're the difference between life and death.

Don't you dare call it "consumerism" until you have to make the choice.

And on this subject, who gives a fuck if women do have abortions out of convienience? Who cares if they do it for fun?

It's their fucking bodies, if they want to drive sharp pokers into their wombs for entertainment value, that is their goddamn right!


How evil is it to kill a child just so that you can maintain a job?

"child"? What "child"?

I thought we were talking about abortion.


Another thing that i think leads to the problem of abortion in this society is that we use sex as a passtime.

What the hell's wrong with that? It is a pastime!

It, literally, passes the time ...and it's fun ...and it's enjoyable ...and it doesn't hurt anyone.

If more people spend their time having sex instead of, say, going to church, the world would be a far better place.


I feel especially strong about this because I am young. I was born in 1987, and in that year, abortion was completely legal, hence my mother, had she so much as the whim to do so, could have terminated my existance without a second thought.

No, she could have prevented it. That's an entirely different thing.

It's like saying that if your mother and father had not had sex, your existance would have been prevented. So what?

You wouldn't have minded, you wouldn't have existed!


Could I walk in to a hospital and say "Doctor, for no apparent reason whatsoever, I'd like you to surgically remove my heart. Its my body, its my choice."?

Well, the doctor may be retiscent to comply if you can't justify your request, but you certainly do have the right to terminate your own life.

Not that that is at all relevent to this discussion, of course, since abortion doesn't result in the death of a member of society, only a foetus.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Okay this is the 3rd or 4th thread Ive seen here within two weeks where people who (I think) consider themselves to be communists have taken wholey uncommunist positions.

Three I can remember right now:

1. Oppose national liberation movements?
2. Support Zionism?
3. Pro-life (anti-woman)?

All I can say is, what the fuck?!

As the comrade asked, are you people communists? Do you want to be? Because, you have to make that decission.

[Free Palestine]

Roe V. Wade will never be overturned, without serious violence as the result.

[Atlas Swallowed]

The so called "pro-lifers" are such hypocrites. For the most part they do not give a crap about children who live in poverty. They support wars blindly no matter how unjust. Thier are children around the world starving to death for Christs sake!! Thier are children being bombed, shot, molested, raped and God only knows what else. I wish these assholes would use thier energy for the children who are out of the womb.

As a father of two, I personally find abortion distastfull, unfortunatly it is a necessary evil. It is a womans choice and will be done regardless of the law.

[TC]

Really banning abortions is just such an extreme idea to even entertain, one that really fundementally alters the relationship of the state to individual rights. Its crazy that it can even be taken seirously in the news media let alone in government


I think the Left and leftwing liberals should react with equally extreme propsals:

-Ban heterosexual marriage! All children must be born out of 'wedlock' and *noone* waits till marriage!..of course gay civil unions and marriages will remain unaffected...call it the "Defense of (homosexual) Marriage Act"

-Federal funding for charities that actively promote atheism and create a hostile environment for Christians...call it "Reason-based initiatives.

-Pro-sex sex ed for kindergardners...teach them that birth control and abortions are their rights and sex is meant to be fun and entertaining not serious or taboo...don't give their parents a chance to make them feel guilty and shameful about it!...also called the "Casual-sex Only based sex education system."

-Teach the Marxian view of families as an oppressive, patriarchal institution for husbands to exploit wives and parents to exploit their children, along side the popularly accepted "theory" of family dynamics...argue that children should be exposed to "Both sides of the debate."

-Threaten to pack the supreme court with justices that will outlaw the sale, consumption, production or posession of meat products...while the Republicans will insist that they ought to have the right to choose what to put into their own bodies, leftwing democrats will refer to themselves as "pro-life" while pursuing this position.

[poster_child]

If more people spend their time having sex instead of, say, going to church, the world would be a far better place.

This is my all time favourite quote on this website.

But in all seriousness, this is revolutionaryleft. Maybe you anti-abortioners should re-think your political position. But hey, I guess if you guys didn't have a different opinion, then we wouldn't have anything to post about.

I am a female. I, personally don't think I would ever have an abortion, however, that is my choice. This is not the state's decision under any circumstances.

Isn't it funny that the people who make these laws are old, white MEN? I would bet that the MAIN percentage of opponents of abortion are men. (Not that all women are for abortion, and not that I'm a femminist). It seems that these laws are made by men wanting to control women. They want a say. Ridiculous.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

As a father of two, I personally find abortion distastfull, unfortunatly it is a necessary evil. It is a womans choice and will be done regardless of the law.

What's "evil" about it?

I have kids and I don't find it evil. Infact, I don't find anything evil, because that's an abstract, moral concept, and I, as a communist, have no use for it.

[BeardedBolshevist]

This topic leads to serious debate, and I only wish that people could try to be more respectful of one another's opinions (which nobody is going to change one way or the other). Now if you argue, thats great, and I encourage it, but I do not appreciate it when people say that the opposing OPINION is bullshit. If you find hypocracy in it, then exploit that, but be respectful of these opinions none the less. As for Roe vs Wade, it doesnt really affect me, as I am a Canadian. I am NOT advocating banning abortion all together, but it should not be a "no questions asked" type thing. I cant even think of another medical operation that functions this way, and it is not a matter to be taken lightly. To say that the fetus is simply a "clot of cells" is very simplistic, i could say the same of a fully grown man or woman, what are they but a bunch, albiet billions, of cells? I've heard it mentioned on this forum that abortion will "reduce poverty and crime", and I will now make a parrallel between that statement and a racist joke ive heard. it went along the lines of "What do you call a harlem abortion clinic? Crimestoppers of America.", yes, in america, huge numbers of poor are aborted, this is surely one way to solve the problem of poverty, but it is the easy way, and the revolution isnt about taking the easy paths. Another thing I must stress, I am very pro-stem cell research, i dont see this as being synonymous with abortion, and that is my harshest critique of the "pro-life" movement. Again, i hate those terms, is there anybody here who will say they are either anti-life or anti-choice? self rightiousness is alive and well in such euphamisms. This issue is a bad one because it divides people. What I have said will no doubt bring about strong feelings in those who oppose my beliefs, all I can say to those people is to please try to refrain from your passions dominating your reason, and, even though it is naught but an internet forum, please counter my arguements with logic, not hatred. Let this issue not divide us, but rather let common understanding (even if not agreement) unite us. And, let us stop treating Abortion and Gay Marriage be the only moral issues we argue against the right about. Inequality is a moral issue, and i believe that if inequality was erraticated, abortion rates would go down too. If the supposedly anti-abortion bush would spend more money to send to mothers in need than he does to bomb mothers in need in Iraq, would not abortion rates go down? This is not a black and white issue, and i for one am my own unique shade of grey, and attach myself to no movement about this issue that i know of. Thank you once again for your time.

[BeardedBolshevist]

And one more thing, I hate how opposition to abortion is seen widely as opposition to the left and the femminist movement. Susan B Anthony was strongly against abortion, she saw it as a way for men to control women, and this makes complete sense to me. I had a friend once who told me that His father forced his mother into having an abortion by threating to beat the shit out of her otherwise. why would he do this? more money for a kid means less money for beer. What I said was true, and it is appauling. I was brought to tears when I was told that story. Dont mistake yourselves, many women have abortions to please their partners, and many partners stress that their pregnant partners should abort. Back alley abortions are extreme examples, and used far too often. There is also a black market for organs which involves back alley operations to remove kidneys if somebody is in need of quick cash, does this mean that people should be able to sell their organs legally as another commodity?

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

There is no discussion. Should there be a discussion with Nazis? The reason "pro-life" (anti-women) views are portrayed as rightwing is because they are.

I don't know if you have a beard, but you're certainly no Bolshevik. They were communists that fully supported womens' rights, and thus, abortion.

[BeardedBolshevist]

CompaneroDeLibertad, you are an arrogant person. How dare you attack my freedom of speach like that, and bring my stupid tag name (i thought of in 3 seconds) into it. I have the right to have my say, and so do you. But how dare you call me anti-woman because of my beliefs. You, sir, are a fascist. Not in what you say, but in how you say it. These forums are meant for peaceful civil discussion, and what kind of a discussion about abortion would this be if everyone was for it? I was hoping that people in this site could be respectful of varrying opinions, but it would appear that for you, your's is the right one and there is no room for debate. YOU are the Nazi. If you support abortion, I can respect that, provided you have rational reasons for it. However, what I can not respect is your blatant disregard for opinions other than your own. There is a little saying that i have clung to, and you would do well to give it a look:
"Sir, although I do not agree with what you have to say, I'll fight to the death for your right to say it."
I do not claim that my opinions on this matter, or any other matters for that matter, are universally right. Anybody who thinks their opinions are right no matter what is arrogant, and, ultimately, wrong. Now, I can see that you have an opinion on the matter, and I am fairly confident of my beliefs to have a civil discussion with you about it, however it is impossible while you maintain your self-rightious stance against everything that differs from what you have to say. And so I bid you good day, sir.

[Ownthink]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2005, 10:17 PM
CompaneroDeLibertad, you are an arrogant person. How dare you attack my freedom of speach like that, and bring my stupid tag name (i thought of in 3 seconds) into it. I have the right to have my say, and so do you. But how dare you call me anti-woman because of my beliefs. You, sir, are a fascist. Not in what you say, but in how you say it. These forums are meant for peaceful civil discussion, and what kind of a discussion about abortion would this be if everyone was for it? I was hoping that people in this site could be respectful of varrying opinions, but it would appear that for you, your's is the right one and there is no room for debate. YOU are the Nazi. If you support abortion, I can respect that, provided you have rational reasons for it. However, what I can not respect is your blatant disregard for opinions other than your own. There is a little saying that i have clung to, and you would do well to give it a look:
"Sir, although I do not agree with what you have to say, I'll fight to the death for your right to say it."
I do not claim that my opinions on this matter, or any other matters for that matter, are universally right. Anybody who thinks their opinions are right no matter what is arrogant, and, ultimately, wrong. Now, I can see that you have an opinion on the matter, and I am fairly confident of my beliefs to have a civil discussion with you about it, however it is impossible while you maintain your self-rightious stance against everything that differs from what you have to say. And so I bid you good day, sir.
I hope you realize the irony of what you say as you "blatantly disrespect his opinion" too.

He is just voicing his opinion. No disrespect to you, but I usually have no tolerance for anti-abortionists, just as I don't for Fascists, etc. Should I "respect" their beliefs? Fuck no.

[BeardedBolshevist]

I realize I am taking an unpopular stand, but it is the stand I believe is right. I respect all of you for taking your stands, all I ask for is for my statements to be met with respect and not "who the fuck thinks that?". Please dont give me that crap. I get enough of that bullshit from the pro-bush zionists on IMDB, and I dont need it from people who i agree with on most matters, if not all. Let me make one thing clear, if it were up to me, I would not overturn Roe vs Wade. I would overturn all of "civilization" and have humanity live in a natural setting, instead of this world filled with counter-natural holocausts. I am not a communist, I am sorry for the misleading name, i didnt put much thought into it. I am much more of an environmentalist. And as such, I see abortion as a completely unnatural thing. It goes further than that into a phobia of all hospital and clinic-like settings. I'm pissed enough that I was born in a hospital, but to think that people are being prevented from birth in clinics terrifies me. I just have one question I'd like to ask people, its a hypothetical situation.

A pregnant woman is walking around in Gaza, and some Israeli soldiers start harrassing her. One thing leads to another and they hit her in the stomach as hard as they can, causing a miscarriage, with that as their plan all along, however the woman survives, and aside from the miscarriage is relatively physically unharmed, but emotionally destroyed. You are in charge of trying these men, what is their crime? Is it murder?


Im sick of all this abortion rhetoric, its really a depressing thought. Im also appauled by some people on this forum's blatant disregard for varrying opinions. I say to you know, that idealogy aside, you are no better than the Bushites who harrass the anti-war activists on right wing forums. for shame.




And abortion isnt a right wing thing, thats a political stereotype. and i am angered that people had the audacity to call me pro-life even though i have stated many times that i do not, and would not associate myself with those christian coalition pricks.



If you go onto a forum, be prepared to have discussion with people with different opinions than your own


If you can not respect different opinions, then talk to yourself.

[BeardedBolshevist]

Whatever happened to Peace, Love & Repect? thats what i entered this discussion expecting to find, but I guess the revolutionary left is not the place to find that. You people are no different than any other Internet forum scum, and I'll be damned if im going to take shit from people who proudly display the fact that they have made thousands of posts. This page is no discussion, it is a fascistic rant about "were right, your wrong". This isnt a black and white arguement, there isnt even a ying to your yang. a bunch of bloody conformists, thats all i see here. I think im going to go delete my account. Have fun with your one track record. Ciao

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Next time try checking out the rules of the site (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?act=boardrules) before you register.


This Community is open to all leftists. Right-wingers are not welcome, but tolerated within the 'Opposing Ideologies' forum. Right-wing messages will be ignored or deleted in all other forums and the author will be banned. If you are a right-winger or convinced capitalist and can accept this rule, good. If not, fuck off and never come back!


What is restriction, and what is the Opposing Ideologies forum?

Restriction is a measure the membership uses to focus the debate on this site. We are a group of progressive Leftists, after all. That is about as much as many of us have in common however. We disagree on how the society we envision will work, how best to emancipate the workers and many other issues. We need to debate these things respectfully, amongst ourselves. So we restrict debate about whether we should emancipate the workers at all to the Opposing Ideologies forum.

This is where all right-wingers are sent. This is where anyone who is too disruptive to proper debate is sent. There are other reasons for being restricted to OI of course, but generally, it requires behaviour that is deemed in conflict with the membership's vision for this site.

As for "free speech", it's an abstract concept when seperated from class society. I don't support "free speech" for reactionaries.

Also, you have time and time again brought up moral arguments. It's not about what's "right or wrong". Those are subjective, moral arguments, and have no place in a rational debate between revolutionary leftists.

[BeardedBolshevist]

Fuck you, I am not a right winger, I just have a different opinion on this particular topic. Now i didnt know that there was a Leftist Checklist, and I thought that one single issue doesnt make you whatever on the political spectrum. If thats the way it is, then fuck you, and fuck politics. Congratulations, due to your harsh treatment of this one fucking issue, you have turned an interested person away from your little ideal of the left. I am a green, and last I checked, that was left on the spectrum. I hate capitolism, I despise the Neoliberal consumer society the west has become, and I shed tears for the victims of this society in the third world. If, despite this, you label me as a right winger based on my views on one fucking topic, then whatever, I'll found my own party. yours is fucked. And, whatever its consequence, it is a very small issue. I dont think anybody who died fighting Franco did so so that abortion would be legal in spain. Phil Ochs never wrote a song called "ode to a ball of cells". I dont think the dying words of any Republican fighter in the spanish civil war were "Now they will have the right to choose...". Indeed, I can guarentee that many of those fighters were against abortion, and they were all better socialists than you, so do your fucking posts if you must. You arent helping anything. Now look, ive been turned into the typical forum poster. so if your movement has a checklist with no room for debate, have fun, it will achieve nothing. Do you honestly believe that enough people will adhere to your exact beliefs to change a damn town, let alone the whole of western society? no, you do not organize a revolution based on your political dogma, but rather you tell people to think for themselves and offer guidence. Thats what the 60's were, and the climate is right for that again, only larger. Now if your revolution is one of absolutes, it will fail, my revolution is of freedom, and it is well under way. Not one of my messages was right wing, you are far too simplistic, and extremely black and white. Why was this subject even put up if people are unwilling to accept debate without immediately denouncing the opposition as right wing? shouldnt this be in your fucking opposing idealogies section? If we were to talk, Im sure we'd agree on a great number of things, and I wasnt going to judge you based on this one, but that can never be now.

[Deutsche Ideologie]

Abortion is a sick and unnatural practice, and I wouldn't stay with a girl who had one.. But I'm for it being legal. Making it illegal leads to horrible things. Anyone remember when Romania made abortion illegal? Underground clinics, deaths of thousands of women.

What we need to do is educate this country's youth on sex and learning how to put a fucking condom on your dick before you stick it in a girl's pussy.

Most people aren't "pro-abortion" they're simply pro-choice and aknowledge that a woman's body is hers, not the state's. The government banning abortion is more backward than abortion itself.

[FleasTheLemur]

After monitoring the 5th arguement on this board, I've come to see both sides of the issue rather clearly and I've come to the ultimate understanding that this issue is dumb. For every point, there's a counter-point. For every study, there is a yet another study. Every attack is canceled out by another attack and the issue is therefore, stupid.

On one stereotypical side, you have the country music listening, NASCAR watching, bible thumping reactionary who takes Bush's word as the gospel and usually the book-smarts of a sock. On the other stereotypical side, you have the jazz listening, PBS watching, member of the (pseudo?) intelligensia who wants to help the poor even though they can't relate to them on any level and usually has the street-smarts of a sock. Watch as they both argue back and forth about an issue that will have no possitive or negitive effect if it was allowed to continue or allowed to be made illegal. Is abortions going end world hunger? Will no abortions cure AIDS? Is abortions going to end Capitalism?

The answer to all these question no. Whether or not abortions are legal holds little if no merit on issues that really matters. It's just one of those dumb issues the Right uses to keep people distracted. It's dumb and at best, should be ignored.

"Blah Blah Blah, women's rights" - Can your peaches! There is REAL feminist issues to fight over. After 40 or so years of progress, women earn less then men under capitalism, hold less seats in government (even though females are usually half the population) and the stereotype of women still perpetuates itself in the media. Women may have left the kitchen, but only to go to work. When they return home, it's right back to the kitchen again while the husband watches 'the big game'. Why aren't people up in arms about that?!

"Blah Blah Blah, baby's rights" - Put a lid on it! There's REAL children's issues to caterwaul about. Children are regularly subject to child abuse. Kids are being regularly beaten up for their material possesions. When children commit murder for whatever reason, they're almost instantly convicted as adults, but when a horny preteen has sex with his teacher, suddenly he becomes a child again the teacher is convicted. One in five kids live at or below the poverty line. Why isn't anyone debating over that?

ARG! This debate is dumb! You hear me? A society with or without abortions is still going to have the problems I proclaimed above as well as many problems we can see around us. You may pick part my arguement by stating "Well, if blah blah blah.." No. Just no. If my non-existant wife ever got prego, I probably won't want her to have an abortion, mainly because I'm a loser that needs his immortality (just incase the dumber issue of God existance is proven on the side of the atheist). Everyone else? I don't care if they got abortions, I just care if the capitalist is exploting them. Fuck pro-lifers. Fuck pro-choosers. This issue is dumb. The End, No one wins, go argue about something with MORE merit, mmk?

[Ownthink]

Originally posted by [email protected] 29 2005, 01:39 PM
After monitoring the 5th arguement on this board, I've come to see both sides of the issue rather clearly and I've come to the ultimate understanding that this issue is dumb. For every point, there's a counter-point. For every study, there is a yet another study. Every attack is canceled out by another attack and the issue is therefore, stupid.

On one stereotypical side, you have the country music listening, NASCAR watching, bible thumping reactionary who takes Bush's word as the gospel and usually the book-smarts of a sock. On the other stereotypical side, you have the jazz listening, PBS watching, member of the (pseudo?) intelligensia who wants to help the poor even though they can't relate to them on any level and usually has the street-smarts of a sock. Watch as they both argue back and forth about an issue that will have no possitive or negitive effect if it was allowed to continue or allowed to be made illegal. Is abortions going end world hunger? Will no abortions cure AIDS? Is abortions going to end Capitalism?

The answer to all these question no. Whether or not abortions are legal holds little if no merit on issues that really matters. It's just one of those dumb issues the Right uses to keep people distracted. It's dumb and at best, should be ignored.

"Blah Blah Blah, women's rights" - Can your peaches! There is REAL feminist issues to fight over. After 40 or so years of progress, women earn less then men under capitalism, hold less seats in government (even though females are usually half the population) and the stereotype of women still perpetuates itself in the media. Women may have left the kitchen, but only to go to work. When they return home, it's right back to the kitchen again while the husband watches 'the big game'. Why aren't people up in arms about that?!

"Blah Blah Blah, baby's rights" - Put a lid on it! There's REAL children's issues to caterwaul about. Children are regularly subject to child abuse. Kids are being regularly beaten up for their material possesions. When children commit murder for whatever reason, they're almost instantly convicted as adults, but when a horny preteen has sex with his teacher, suddenly he becomes a child again the teacher is convicted. One in five kids live at or below the poverty line. Why isn't anyone debating over that?

ARG! This debate is dumb! You hear me? A society with or without abortions is still going to have the problems I proclaimed above as well as many problems we can see around us. You may pick part my arguement by stating "Well, if blah blah blah.." No. Just no. If my non-existant wife ever got prego, I probably won't want her to have an abortion, mainly because I'm a loser that needs his immortality (just incase the dumber issue of God existance is proven on the side of the atheist). Everyone else? I don't care if they got abortions, I just care if the capitalist is exploting them. Fuck pro-lifers. Fuck pro-choosers. This issue is dumb. The End, No one wins, go argue about something with MORE merit, mmk?
No.

[poster_child]

ARG! This debate is dumb! You hear me? A society with or without abortions is still going to have the problems I proclaimed above as well as many problems we can see around us. You may pick part my arguement by stating "Well, if blah blah blah.." No. Just no. If my non-existant wife ever got prego, I probably won't want her to have an abortion, mainly because I'm a loser that needs his immortality (just incase the dumber issue of God existance is proven on the side of the atheist). Everyone else? I don't care if they got abortions, I just care if the capitalist is exploting them. Fuck pro-lifers. Fuck pro-choosers. This issue is dumb. The End, No one wins, go argue about something with MORE merit, mmk?

Maybe it's not an issue for you because you never will, or never have been in a position where you a pregnant and you do not want to have a baby. Don't be selfish. This affect's people's lives.

[BeardedBolshevist]

"The custom of procuring abortions has reached such appalling proportions in America as to be beyond belief...So great is the misery of the working classes that seventeen abortions are committed in every one hundred pregnancies."
-Emma Goldman

The way to fight abortion isnt through meaningless laws and court decisions. That stops nothing. I doubt there is anybody here who thinks that it is a jolly matter, and that abortion is pleasant. The numbers have increased since Goldman's day, to where now it is 25 out of every hundred. We are asking the wrong question of "whether or not women should be allowed to have abortions?", as all laws will inevitably be broken, be they just or unjust is of no consequence. The right question is "why do so many people want abortions?" and this is what must be tackled. My personal belief is that if we were to adopt a more natural society, the world would be better. If we were to follow the examples of the ancient celts and mayans, to name a few, the world would be better on all matters. You must remember that Humanity itself is a parasite on mother earth, and mother earth has the right to abort us. Objectively speaking, that would probably be best for all life, and to be pro-life, one must inevitably become anti-human. Mother earth does not have that oppurtunity however, and unless things change on all levels, humanity will self-abort. Whatever the hot issue, whatever the circumstance, we are all in the same boat. If we want that boat to keep afloat, we must have respect for all life, however large or however small. If we want to terminate any of it, well, you'd best have a damn good reason. Why, then, are abortion rates so high here? Same reason as to why suicide is on the rise. Consumer-induced distance from life and what matters. I seriously doubt 1/4 ancient celtic women even considered abortion. this was a better society. what fucked it up you may ask? quite simply, Christianity, or rather, istitutionalized Christianity .I admire Jesus, he was more or less of an ancient hippie, but I Hate the rest of christianity with a strong passion, mores the pity. in the words of Phil Ochs, the great folk musician "beneath the greatest love lies a hurricane of hate", and the homophobic Billy Graham, or the terrorist Bush, or any other "christians" dont follow the teachings of love gave to humanity by Jesus, rather they follow something more along the lines of every verse in the bible that wasnt uttered by jesus. but I digress. Some of the posts on this topic give me a feeling that some people actually HATE the unwanted unborn. purge yourselves of hate, have only love and the world will be a good place. People before profits. One of my favorite religious verses (I try to respect all religions, they all have something to teach, but I remain agnostic because I dont think I will ever be able to comprehend the smallest fraction of the ultimate truth, nor will anybody) is one from the Baha'ai Faith that goes along the lines of "Blessed is he who preffers his brother before himself." Judge these words as you will, and peace and love be upon you all.

[BuyOurEverything]

The way to fight abortion isnt through meaningless laws and court decisions. That stops nothing. I doubt there is anybody here who thinks that it is a jolly matter, and that abortion is pleasant. The numbers have increased since Goldman's day, to where now it is 25 out of every hundred. We are asking the wrong question of "whether or not women should be allowed to have abortions?", as all laws will inevitably be broken, be they just or unjust is of no consequence. The right question is "why do so many people want abortions?" and this is what must be tackled.

But very few people here oppose abortion at all so that's irrelevant.

Anyways, amid all the rhetoric surrounding abortion, it all comes down to if a fetus is human or not. If it is, than abortion would be no different than murdering children and no one should support it under any circumstances, regardless of whether it would threaten the mother's health. Or, it is not a human, in which case having an abortion is not different than killing a sheep or taking an antibiotic. And, as anyone with a half a brain and even a loose grasp on science knows, a fetus is not a human. End of fucking discussion.

[Ownthink]

Here, let me try and end the debate:

If the fetus cannot survive on its own outside the mothers womb and relies solely on her body's resources for it to live in the first place, she can do whatever she wants to it.

But after it can survive on its own and the only thing that needs to be done is just taking the thing out, then I believe that it should NOT be aborted.

90% of abortions are performed in the first trimester anyways, when the fetus is about the size of a dot.

[EwokUtopia]

What does everybody think about FORCED abortion, like that that occurs in China? Is that murder? is that not a crime at all? is that somewhere in between? Personally it creeps me out, I saw a scene where a forced abortion occured in a movie about the rape of Nanking, and it creeped the shit out of me. As for wether or not a fetus is a person, thats kinda a yes and no answer. If it is old enough to survive outside the womb, then why not put it in a tube instead of abort? everyones happy then, mother has no fetus, fetus lives. Im in a really grey area on this topic, as I am with most hot debates. I personally dont think anybody can be right when everybody is wrong. Did anybody see that episode of thats my bush where the pro-life and pro-choice camps got together? that was a good one. Has anybody actually survived abortion? im sure there must be one example....Cher does seem like a likely candidate. One thing that nobody mentioned is that the fetus has different DNA than the mother, Im not a scientist (i hate science), so i was just wondering if anybody has something to say on this topic? I probably shouldnt get involved in this discussion, its not going to end anytime soon, and violent words will be thrown. One thing I am for is stem cell research. In my opinion, we should make a million Ariel Sharon clones, abort them, and harvest their stem cells, that way if it turns out that a fetus is a person, we just killed ariel sharon a million times, and so it doesnt really matter. I honestly believe this issue should be resolved with the flipping of a coin. but thats my solution to everything. the coins are wiser than we give them credit for, they will show us the right answer.

[EwokUtopia]

Heres an interesting little fact, by the way, a third of pregnancies are aborted by the body naturally before the woman even knows she is pregnant. Its not really relevant to anything, i just found that kind of shocking. Abortion is really more of an issue in the 3rd world anyways, they are far too overpopulated (so are we, but less so), so perhaps they need looser laws than us. too many people in the world nowadays, that scares me, If there were only maybe 500 million people alive, the world would be better. 6 billion people means that when technology fails (and it will) there will be a hell of alot of dead people. I dont know what the solution to this is...maybe make more people gay? if 10% of the world was straight, we could control population. Im not gay or anything, but I tend to get along with gay men better, I also get along with girls better. fuck masculinity. I am a lesbian trapped in a mans body.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

It's not that there are too many people, it's that there's not enough justice. The world is perfectly able to support all the humans alive now plus some; but capitalism doesn't allow their needs to be met.

[EwokUtopia]

If thats true, how come the rise in humans has been so great in the last century? its all related to technology, which will innevitably fail. if you look at a population graph begining 70,000 years ago (the newest issue of adbusters has one) its scary. in the last 200 years, the population line of the graph went from basically a horizontal line to a vertical line. At any rate, i dont like the connection of people in the world, i feel so small as being one of six billion. we should all have small, tightly nit town communities where everyone is equal and we all love eachother, like the Ewoks had, hence my name. They beat the empire man, we can learn from them.


This really doesnt pertain to abortion I know, but going off topic is the best, just like it said in catcher in the rye (love that book!).