NATO

[Insomnia]

hello comrads, i am new to this, i just registered tonight after downloading Carlos Puebla`s song last night (Sunday).
I opened this topic because of the american globalisation plague spreading east. after the last NATO conference my country (Romania) was invited to join the north-atlantic organisation. this is just to give the americans acces to my country`s military bases and air space for an attack on Iraq. I think it`s wrong to interfere in other another country`s internal problems and politics. this should have been stopped some time ago. the expansion towards east must stop at a point. it must stop now!
thank you

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

lola double topic

(Edited by CCCP at 9:44 pm on Dec. 23, 2002)


(Edited by CCCP at 9:44 pm on Dec. 23, 2002)

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

Agree. That fuckface Romian government has signed a treaty with the US government to not to give any American soldiers who have commited a crime to the international court. The US even threats Holland, because the court stands in The Hague with an invasion if they arrest an American soldier.

[Comrade Daniel]

yeah, I heard about a possible attack in The Hague, they wan't to be the boss everywher fucking yanks. Also the NATO may not conclude more countries.

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

The most fucked up thing is that even the Dutchmedia reported it just a few seconds, while there is a possibility of an attackon it's nation. Stupid Captalists!!

[deimos]

Aren't the dutch people upset?

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

No they don' t know it. When I told a few friends of mine they got upset. They thuaght I was lying untill I gave them a newspaper where it stood.

[Comrade Daniel]

Some dutchies think it's better this way. fuckers

[Pavan Sohal]

They should transfer the court to a nation that America will not mess up ties with, no matter what it does, specifically Canada.

[Insomnia]

You guys are drifting away from the subject. i want to hear more opinions on this matter and possible solutions...maybe a boycot at the next meeting dor the expantion of NATo towards eastern europe. if the ywill expand here the hope for the rebirth of socialism in eastern europe will be lost.

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

Won't the locals work against you? Because the most East-Europeans want to join the Western world for more prosperity. But protests at their meetings places would be nice.

[Bolschewik]

Quote: from CCCP on 8:12 pm on Dec. 25, 2002
Won't the locals work against you? Because the most East-Europeans want to join the Western world for more prosperity. But protests at their meetings places would be nice.

Yeah. That's the consensus being manufactured by the imperialists in Washington and the Hague. I didn't expect for open minded leftists to actually believe that. The truth is, the only thing that spread east in the 90's was misery, injustice, corruption, and inequality.

People like Insomnia are not radicals. It isn't radical to be a socialist in Eastern Europe. A sharp contrast is still very visible just in the way the city of Berlin voted: the PDS (DDR ex-ruling party) received more support in ostberlin, while only receiving 6% in the western half of the city.
http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/upload/germany_elections.jpg Considering this is over a decade after the annexation of the DDR, the numbers are quite impressive. In Russia, the communist party is stable as the largest political party at the moment. Michael Parenti write more qualitative analysis on the capitalist restoration in eastern europe, which will explain such support, in his book Blackshirts and Reds (http://www.michaelparenti.org/BlackShirts.html). I can assure you the capitalist restoration in eastern europe is not a paradise, but imperialist devestation. Eastern europe needs to build a good anti-imperialist bloc to resist nato, it is all too weak and unorganized at the moment. Perhaps if Lukashenko and Belarus unites with Russian Federation, as one nation, the ball may start rolling. It is too hard to see at the moment.

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

Thanks, but how bout nationalist feelings?? It's those feelings who seperate it in the first way.

[Insomnia]

The next convention of the NATO comition for the joining of these east-european countries will be in a couple of years and won`t be held in Romania anyway. the thing is there are a lot of ppl that think it was better with Socialism. the country`s economics is almost half what it was back in 1989 when the Comunist dictator was executed. people aren`t happy with the current situation economical, military or otherwise. also a large percent of the population think that the west (capitalism mostly) bring only bad things, habbits and rot the minds of their children (middle-aged or old people) and i think this is fair ground on which to expose my position.
In couclusion i would like to know if i would organise a boycot at the next NATO reunion if i would have any comrads to support me because i feel that something needs to be done about this, a government`s decision isn`t necesarily the people`s decision, and in this case it isn`t at all. a lot of romanians don`t see the pourpose of joining (at least the good parts for us because they aren`t any) and i expect a good feedback from the people too.
Thank you.

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

What sort of boycot were you thinking of?

[Insomnia]

I`m thinking blocking the entrance to the institution, holding up signs and some televisions (i`m sure that there will be a lot of them) will take our interviews, make all public and we will have followers not only on that country but all over the continent. there will be hesitation on signing the actua pact and maybe we can change something.

[Insomnia]

ARE YOU WITH ME COMRADES ???

[Bolschewik]

@insomnia
comrade, I would be with you if I still lived in Eastern Europe and had a chance to organize against a nato expansion. what are you suggesting to those which are not physically able to "demonstrate" or "boycott"?

@cccp
nationalism is in two forms: one is a good form of nationalism which i support 100% at times. this is the anti-imperialist pro-liberation nationalism, as currently experienced by a number of countries in América. the other nationalism is the developed-world nationlism, ultra nationalism, which is more or less sympathetic to neo-nazism and white supremacy. this has too spread east, but it is indeed overplayed; the nationalism is large relative to the communist era, where most eastern european nations had hardline policies of antifascism (for obvious reasons)

[Insomnia]

i intend to do this and i hope it turns out good, with visible results. for those of you who agree to come with me and do something worth doing at the next NATO conference i have a profound respect. but from those of you who will not be able to be with us that day there is only one thing i ask : be with us in mind, because our minds are the only things that will always be free. they can enslave a country, but they can`t enslave a mind.

[Comrade Daniel]

Compañero Insomnia, I'm with you 100%.
Let's protest (altough I'm 13 :().

they can enslave a country, but they can`t enslave a mind. Great spoken nice little speech I would say :)

[Insomnia]

For those of you who wish to support me in this cause and are too young, don`t worry, the NATO conference for expansion in eastern europe will be held in 2007 so i think we have enough time to plan everything carefully and you will have time to grow.

[Insomnia]

For those of you who wish to support me in this cause and are too young, don`t worry, the NATO conference for expansion in eastern europe will be held in 2007 so i think we have enough time to plan everything carefully and you will have time to grow.

[Ze]

Comrade, use all that is available to you to further your cause. Virtual Activist Training Manual (http://netaction.org/training/)

(Edited by Ze at 4:04 pm on Dec. 26, 2002)

[Insomnia]

Comrade Ze i apreciate your concern but i don`t need a fuckin` manual to tell me how to fight back the capitalist pigs. do you think that V. I. Lenin used a manual when installed Socialism in Russia? or did Che Guevara use a fuckin` manual? i think not.

P.S : Great men use their own ideeas.

[Bolschewik]

Insomnia,

you live in romania, right? how old are you? i have to inquire about your current president Iliescu. i read somewhere where his party was portrayed as "authoritarian extreme left", however i would not expect such people to support nato imperialists. what are iliescu's and the partidul democratiei sociale din românia politics?

[Insomnia]

Comrade i will answer your question. i`m only 17 but i have great plans, aspirations an so on... as for the president of my country and his party is thought to be leftist but it`s not. the just kiss the american president`s ass just like the president, the prime minster and the romanian secret service (my sister works in internal affairs and she told me) . my source confirms it. on the other hand what you read is not totally untrue. the current president was in an important position when the Comunism fell back in 1989. my opinion is (my syster`s too) that certain people tolerated the comunism and took important positions just to take over the country when the dictator was executed. of course the capitalist pigs have to interfere in every country`s internal politics and they interfered in my country`s too. the helped start the people`s riot in Timisoara which degenerated into a massive conflict (the military was shooting in the ppl on the street at the direct order of Ceausescu). the dictator fled but was captured, trialed (unfair trial of course) and executed.
I will gladly answer any questions you ask me.

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

There is only one sort of nationalism. That's blind proud for your nation's borders. No matter if it's anti captalist or anti imperialist. That's called national-socialism(hitler) or national bolchevism(the same only other name).

[Bolschewik]

CCCP:

You are incorrect. What you are describing is "blind patriotism", but it is still indeed patriotism. Nationalism isn't as simplistic as an extention of patriotism (as you make it appear to be). Nationalism is a struggle for liberation, self-determination, and independence. Fidel Castro is a nationalist in his desires to keep his country and his culture from the yankee imperialists. This is why there is such a rise of "nationalism" in the post-Communist Eastern Europe. Under communist rule, there were no kiosks selling western shit in public parks, there were no billboards with a name of an American-based corporation sprayed on them. Chiefly in Eastern Europe, nationalism is being supportive of your own nation, opposing the cultural imperialism of the West.

[Comrade Daniel]

Bolschewik cccp is right. there's only one sort of nationalism and that one is wrong!!!!!!!!!!!

[Bolschewik]

Daniel:

You have contributed nothing new to this discussion whatsoever. To what specifically do you object of the nationalist policies of Castro? Of the the nationalist policies of Hugo Chávez? Of the nationalist movements in the rest of América? Do you support protectionism in the third world, or free-trade? Should domestic workers' interests be put in front in front of transnational corporations? Do you support a nation's right to self determination, and freedom from yankee imperialism? All the leaders and movements that support the above mentioned are nationalist in one way or another.

[Insomnia]

from a discussion on a revolutionary topic you guyz ended up in a childish contradiction. who cares what it`s called? i don`t. why should we know about it, it`s name &stuff we should feel it and not be able to describe it. that`s dedication

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

"Both" sorts kill in the name of their country. Beeing independant of captalism is different than nationalism. Nationalism is blind proud and independance is something else. Do you have the feeling that Americans are independant

But however there is no reason to be proud on the soil on wich you are born. Your typ of nationalism is a sort of way for other nations to acknowledge another nation. Take the Palestinian - Israel conflict. Israeli doesn't a acknowledge the Palestinian nation. But now comes the point:

Eventually it's the goal that we have a united earth. And as soon as you make different nations, you are making a sort of breach between them. This is noticable when foreigners enter a new country. The language, culture, behavingscode etc is different. When you are making a new country, these things get shaped automaticly. People feel proud of their independance, their language, their culture etc. and are not willing to join a new country. If we are uniting the world, we are making a new country. And are encountering this problem of pride and a breach.