Question about Che/ Debate Catroism

[Knowledge 6 6 6]

You have to understand how important winning Cuba was from bourgeois rule.

Who would've thought that a band of guerilla fighters would turn a capitalist island into a socialist haven? An island extremely dependent on outside resources. It did so to the world's astonishment and Che had a lot to do with it.

It wasn't only the principles that I admire about him - but what he endured. The journeys throughout South America, the travels through Africa helping to train more fighters. He wasn't for the photo-ops, he was genuinely for the people. And that's something very admirable.

[BeauIdeal]

Originally posted by Knowledge 6 6 6+Sep 8 2005, 12:34 PM--> (Knowledge 6 6 6 @ Sep 8 2005, 12:34 PM) You have to understand how important winning Cuba was from bourgeois rule.[/b]

I am well aware of his importance. But I am also aware of Castro's importance, of Roul's importance and of the importance of the other members of the July 26th Movement. Yet they seem to get little recognition.


Originally posted by Knowledge 6 6 [email protected], 12:34 PM

Who would've thought that a band of guerilla fighters would turn a capitalist island into a socialist haven? An island extremely dependent on outside resources.

A lot of people could have thought that. In China, Mao Tse-Tung had been fighting (successfully) with his guerillas for years. Obviously, China is MUCH larger than Cuba, so perhaps Mao Tse-Tung's theories on guerilla warfare were better founded than Guevara's (especially considering Mao succeeded after his revolution and none of Guevara's movements ever really worked out after Cuba). Also, China was not just in a tough spot economically, it was under invasion by an imperialist nation.

As for the dependence, let us not forget that up until very recently Cuba was just a parasite of the USSR and that after the USSR fell, Cuba's economy was shot to hell. The really good news, though, is it's making a come-back - even if it is through tourism.



Originally posted by Knowledge 6 6 [email protected], 12:34 PM
[...]he was genuinely for the people. And that's something very admirable.

So.... Mao, Kim Il Sung, and arguably Lenin were not for their people? Nor, on a more related platform, was Castro? What I don't see is the reason that one person - a fraction of the revolutionary movement - should have so much support when there is a whole thread almost 20 pages long, I believe, devouted to bashing Stalin, who was not even the biggest problem in the USSR.


[email protected] 8 2005, 01:31 PM
truely fought for the better of latin america not for personal wealth as many other do.

No true revolutionary ever does. If they did, they would no longer be revolutionaries. It is generally after the revolutinos that wealth becomes an issue.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

These sound like the typical Maoist arguments to me. What do you want to hear that Mao was the greatest communist of all time?

Who else put there life on the line fighting in three countries that weren't their own?


(especially considering Mao succeeded after his revolution and none of Guevara's movements ever really worked out after Cuba)

Mao succeeded at what? Have you taken a look at China lately? Are you saying Cuba hasn't been successful, but China has??

What happened to "Guevara's movements" was a product of , you can hardly discount his theories because of what happened in Bolivia. Many of the others that attempted to utilize or "supported" his strategies over simplified them, vulgarized them, and viewed them purely militaristically (like Régis Debray).

Check out "Che Guevara and the Latin American revolutionary
movements" by Manuel 'Barabarroja' Piñeiro.


As for the dependence, let us not forget that up until very recently Cuba was just a parasite of the USSR and that after the USSR fell, Cuba's economy was shot to hell. The really good news, though, is it's making a come-back - even if it is through tourism.

Cuba was never a parasite, the relations with the USSR were based on cooperation and socialist principles of solidarity. The U.S. is a parasite of the world.

[BeauIdeal]

Originally posted by CompaneroDeLibertad+Sep 8 2005, 02:45 PM--> (CompaneroDeLibertad @ Sep 8 2005, 02:45 PM)These sound like the typical Maoist arguments to me. What do you want to hear that Mao was the greatest communist of all time?[/b]

I am not a Maoist. Nor am I a Stalinist, nor any of the other variations. If anything, I am probablyh more "Castroist" - which is a term I hesitate to use - though I just consider myself Marxist/Marxist-Leninist.

I am WELL aware of the shortcomings and failures of China. I do not want Mao to be labelled "the greatest Communist of all time" because he obviously was not. I am not blind to history.


Originally posted by [email protected] 8 2005, 02:45 PM
Are you saying Cuba hasn't been successful, but China has??

That is not what I am saying. Take a look:


Originally posted by [email protected] 2005, 02:31 PM
The really good news, though, is it's making a come-back


Originally posted by [email protected] 8 2005, 02:45 PM
Cuba was never a parasite, the relations with the USSR were based on cooperation and socialist principles of solidarity.

Which is why the Cuban economy shrunk at the same time as the fall of the USSR? The truth of the matter is Cuba depended on the USSR almost to the exclusion of any other nation. This is a paraistic tendency.


[email protected] 8 2005, 02:45 PM
The U.S. is a parasite of the world.

Here is a statement that rings with truth!

_________

But now I have another question:

Why is there so much division within the "Communist" part of the political spectrum? You obviously held much distaste for me by believing I was a Maoist (though I assure you I am not), but what reason is there to loathe a comrade?

[Big Boss]

That's true. That is a cuestion that I have been asking myself for some time. Can someone please answer it for me and for BeauIdeal?

[Knowledge 6 6 6]

Because it's a fact man. Listen, communism is way too broad to say that anyone falling underneath this banner totally agrees with every other comrade - it isn't true by any stretch of the imagination.

You have orthodox communists, who believe that with the correct leadership, communism can exist. Basically, if Marx/Engels had run a society, they would be showing true communism because they understand what is necessary in organizing the state itself.

Then you have more fanatic communists who take the role of a dictator. 'Castroism' falls under this, as well as Maoism, Stalinism, etc. Now, many would argue when I put Castro here, but remember that Castro still calls all the shots in Cuba. If we were to go by the book of communism, then one would realise that the communal whole decides what is best. Instead, Castro does this for Cuba; recently he decided to give everyone rice-cookers after signing a trade agreement with China.

In many cases, you have leaders who are looking to pursue their own personal agenda, and it is very rare that you find a leader genuinely for the people. I direct you all to take a look at Hugo Chavez in Venezuela. Amazing leader who believes in 'democratic socialism'. If he continues his ways, he will become the only orthodox communist out there.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

I am not a Maoist. Nor am I a Stalinist, nor any of the other variations. If anything, I am probablyh more "Castroist" - which is a term I hesitate to use - though I just consider myself Marxist/Marxist-Leninist.

Was does Castroism entail?


I am WELL aware of the shortcomings and failures of China. I do not want Mao to be labelled "the greatest Communist of all time" because he obviously was not. I am not blind to history.

Good.



That is not what I am saying.

Oh no?

"perhaps Mao Tse-Tung's theories on guerilla warfare were better founded than Guevara's (especially considering Mao succeeded after his revolution and none of Guevara's movements ever really worked out after Cuba)."


Which is why the Cuban economy shrunk at the same time as the fall of the USSR? The truth of the matter is Cuba depended on the USSR almost to the exclusion of any other nation. This is a paraistic tendency.

The USSR was Cuba's main trading partner. What does that prove? If the U.S. stock market crashed tommmorow the world economy would plummit. Does that prove that the world has a "parasitic tendency" towards the U.S.?


But now I have another question:

Why is there so much division within the "Communist" part of the political spectrum? You obviously held much distaste for me by believing I was a Maoist (though I assure you I am not), but what reason is there to loathe a comrade?

I "obviously" held much distaste? I'll take your word on it. Who said anything about loathing? And who said you were my comrade?

But this topic has been brought up a hundred times..

Unity on the left? (http://www.redstar2000papers.com/theory.php?subaction=showfull&id=1082988280&archive=&cnshow=headlines&start_from=&ucat=&) by Redstar


Now, many would argue when I put Castro here, but remember that Castro still calls all the shots in Cuba. If we were to go by the book of communism, then one would realise that the communal whole decides what is best. Instead, Castro does this for Cuba; recently he decided to give everyone rice-cookers after signing a trade agreement with China.

:lol: What a joke.

Yes, Fidel Castro, one man, orchestrates the entire planned economy of a country with 11,000,000+ citizens. The National Assembly, Ministries, local organs of People's Power, CDRs, Federation of Cuban Women, unions, etc. etc. are all just there for show.. get real.

The Truth About Cuba (http://freepeoplesmovement.org/ry/rys5a.html) & Let's Talk About Cuban Democracy (http://freepeoplesmovement.org/ry/rys5b.html)


I direct you all to take a look at Hugo Chavez in Venezuela. Amazing leader who believes in 'democratic socialism'. If he continues his ways, he will become the only orthodox communist out there.

:lol: That's even better..

Don't forget to tell people that Cuban's aren't allowed to use the internet and that Raul eats babies with hot sauce. :rolleyes:

[Amusing Scrotum]

That's even better..

Don't forget to tell people that Cuban's aren't allowed to use the internet and that Raul eats babies with hot sauce.

Only on Tuesdays and Fridays. The rest of the week Raul sticks to eating teenagers in an orange sauce.


Why is there so much division within the "Communist" part of the political spectrum? You obviously held much distaste for me by believing I was a Maoist (though I assure you I am not), but what reason is there to loathe a comrade?

Personally I dislike Leninists, Stalinists, Maoists and other authoriterean Communists because whilst they harp on about Revolution and the emacipation of the working class, they basically believe in eletist ideals not to disimilar to Borgouis Politicians.

I think Chomsky said it best -



I'm afraid it's hard for me to answer this. If the left is understood to include 'Bolshevism,' then I would flatly dissociate myself from the left. Lenin was one of the greatest enemies of socialism, in my opinion, for reasons I've discussed. The idea that workers are only interested in horse-racing is an absurdity that cannot withstand even a superficial look at labour history or the lively and independent working class press that flourished in many places, including the manufacturing towns of New England not many miles from where I'm writing - not to speak of the inspiring record of the courageous struggles of persecuted and oppressed people throughout history, until this very moment. Take the most miserable corner of this hemisphere, Haiti, regarded by the European conquerors as a paradise and the source of no small part of Europe's wealth, now devastated, perhaps beyond recovery. In the past few years, under conditions so miserable that few people in the rich countries can imagine them, peasants and slum-dwellers constructed a popular democratic movement based on grassroots organisations that surpasses just about anything I know of elsewhere; only deeply committed commissars could fail to collapse with ridicule when they hear the solemn pronouncements of American intellectuals and political leaders about how the US has to teach Haitians the lessons of democracy. Their achievements were so substantial and frightening to the powerful that they had to be subjected to yet another dose of vicious terror, with considerably more US support than is publicly acknowledged, and they still have not surrendered. Are they interested only in horse-racing?

[Knowledge 6 6 6]

You all are so quick to defend Castro..yet not one of you would ever live under him. If you think he's some saint...then why is he STILL violating human rights? That's what I thought..

Hypocrisy amongst many leftist contingents is contageous.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

You can't say anything as to who would or wouldn't live in Cuba. How do you know? People have families, homes, etc. and they wouldn't just up and move to any country, let alone a poor country like Cuba. But for the people of the third world, Cuba is a beacon -- but you wouldn't know anything about that.

I would gladly live in Cuba rather than the Dominican Republic. I've been there many times, worked in work brigades, etc. How many times have you been there? Your entire knowledge of Cuba comes from bourgeois media sources.

"Human Rights" has been another arguments of the imperialists for years.. :lol: Why don't you talk about the exact problems instead of throwing out the old "human rights" swear word. Cuba surpasses every country in Latin America, and many first world countries in many, many things.. where's the human rights for all the starving, homeless, and unemployed people of the world? I don't hear you talking about the human rights of the 3.5 million homeless people in the U.S., or the 70 million with little or no health care coverage in the U.S. How about the 33% of Black men in prison in the U.S., where's their "human rights?"

Post some sources.

I don't think Fidel is "some saint," I don't believe in saints. Do you?

What hypocrisy? What are you talking about? Do you even consider yourself leftist?

The Cuba Truth Project (http://www.freepeoplesmovement.org/cuba)

[Amusing Scrotum]

You all are so quick to defend Castro..yet not one of you would ever live under him

I am 18 and skint. What am I going to shove a stick of dynamite up my arse and propel myself to Cuba. When I land, not knowing any Spanish, shall I demand everyone starts speaking in English just because I think Fidel is great and I want to live under him.
By this same logic, me disliking the Blair Government is stupid because I live under it.
No Cuba is not perfect, but, it is pretty damn good and if my opinion is no good because I've never lived there, then I guess I should keep my opinions about the suffering of Africans, the oppression of Asians etc. to myself because I have never lived in these countries so I cannot have an opinion.
Also have you lived in Cuba? I hope you have otherwise making a daft statement like that, is, well daft.

[fernando]

Why is Guevara so loved? He stuck to his principals, he kept on working even after the Revolution, the voluntary labour projects were something that Cuban politicians werent too fond of since they didnt want to get dirty, however Che kept on working.

Furthermore Che wanted to keep on spreading the revolution, while Castro was forced to keep these things in Cuba because of the US/USSR relationship of "peaceful coexistence"

There was this story about the Cuban Revolution I dont know if its true or not, but it mentioned that Castro eventually had his own chef cook, while Che ate what the normal troops ate (which meant sometimes even rotted meat), this is probably also why people look up to Che, he in a way became one of the "low" men.

[MoscowFarewell]

Originally posted by Knowledge 6 6 [email protected] 10 2005, 04:08 PM
You all are so quick to defend Castro..yet not one of you would ever live under him. If you think he's some saint...then why is he STILL violating human rights? That's what I thought..

Hypocrisy amongst many leftist contingents is contageous.
I'm Cuban. I can tell you how it is. So you can shut the fuck up.

[Knowledge 6 6 6]

And MoscowFarewell gets the award for best response. So tell me, how'd you do it?

Idiot.

Listen and listen good - if you think that Castro's great. Great, I'm glad you feel so strongly about him. However if you think for a minute that there is no bad to him...I feel sorry for you. I feel sorry for anyone who thinks that Castro's the greatest leader of all time, because he isn't.

MoscowFarewell - you provide alot of insight into Cuba. Kudos to your knowledge. Kudos to your education. You sound as stupid as George W. Bush is at making excuses for New Orleans. Now shut the fuck up and read some facts about your precious leader.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/castro/sfeatu...ews_bofill.html (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/castro/sfeature/sf_views_bofill.html)

(Now before everyone jumps at me saying 'oh he's just another right-wing political exile in Miami criticizing Castro...actually READ the damn thing and tell me about political freedom Castro grants everyone).


And before I finish, I want to ask a question to everyone here who supports Castro:

Why were those executions during the Cuban revolution necessary? If Castro was so sure of himself and his regime...why would he want to kill large landowners? I mean, someone with as much confidence as Castro should easily allow opposition to exist...wait, that doesnt happen now does it?

If you think I'm feeding you shit, then whatever. Go preach your ultra leftist propoganda to someone else - because I'm sick of telling you all shit you never hear about your glorious leader Fidel.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Ultra-leftist??? LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You should look up terms before you use them..


Now shut the fuck up and read some facts about your precious leader.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/castro/sfeatu...ews_bofill.html

The president of the Miami-based Cuban Committee for Human Rights = End of story. Next time you should quote Elian's Aunt :lol:


Why were those executions during the Cuban revolution necessary? If Castro was so sure of himself and his regime...why would he want to kill large landowners? I mean, someone with as much confidence as Castro should easily allow opposition to exist...wait, that doesnt happen now does it?

Why do you say things you've obviously never researched? Do you understand what a revolution is? Do you know about the trials that happened after the revolution? Do you know about the crimes that were committed by those executed? Do you know the number of executions in Cuba vs. those in pre-revolutionary Cuba? Or in Cuba vs. the U.S.??

And purely for my personal entertainment, who do you think is the "greatest leader of all time?"

[KC]

Originally posted by wikipedia
Hundreds of suspected Batista era agents, policemen and soldiers were put on trial for human rights abuses and war crimes, including murder and torture. Most of those convicted of murder were executed by firing squad, and the rest received long prison sentences.


One of the first policies by the newly formed Cuban government was eliminating illiteracy, implementing land reforms, and raising living standards.


Castro also nationalized all United States and other foreign-owned property in the nation on August 6, 1960. Large companies owned by upper class Cubans were also nationalized, including the plantations owned by Fidel Castro's family.

Sounds horrible :rolleyes:

[Knowledge 6 6 6]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2005, 03:27 AM
Ultra-leftist??? LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You should look up terms before you use them..


Now shut the fuck up and read some facts about your precious leader.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/castro/sfeatu...ews_bofill.html

The president of the Miami-based Cuban Committee for Human Rights = End of story. Next time you should quote Elian's Aunt :lol:


Why were those executions during the Cuban revolution necessary? If Castro was so sure of himself and his regime...why would he want to kill large landowners? I mean, someone with as much confidence as Castro should easily allow opposition to exist...wait, that doesnt happen now does it?

Why do you say things you've obviously never researched? Do you understand what a revolution is? Do you know about the trials that happened after the revolution? Do you know about the crimes that were committed by those executed? Do you know the number of executions in Cuba vs. those in pre-revolutionary Cuba? Or in Cuba vs. the U.S.??

And purely for my personal entertainment, who do you think is the "greatest leader of all time?"
As I said in my post; read the damn thing. Obviously you cannot decipher what I mean, because maybe you think I'm some capitalist. Whatever.

Just ask your precious Castro if he'd even allow you to come on the internet. And you still haven't answered any of my questions relating to the insecurity of your glorious leader, so that alone speaks volumes of what you read about Cuba.

There were crimes committed by some of those captured - molesting children, raping women, enslaving workers, etc. I agree to that extent - but listen man, there is NO right-winged opposition to Castro in Cuba on the sole basis of political homogenization. You have to understand that political freedom DOES NOT EXIST in Cuba. If it did, you would see prominent right-wing figures alongside left-wing figures outside Castro. But you don't.

Recently this year, there was a man who spraypainted across a Cuban church, claiming the majority of Cuba was not with Castro.

If you don't understand both sides then...well, your views stay distorted. Sorry man, I like balanced opinions.

The greatest leader of all time? hm. Of the people I've studied, it would have to be a tie between Bhagat Singh of India, or Malcolm X. Had they not been killed, I'm sure they'd be the best leaders of their respective countries. Hope you've been entertained.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

As I said in my post; read the damn thing. Obviously you cannot decipher what I mean, because maybe you think I'm some capitalist. Whatever.

It's not a reliable source. And you're calling people "ultra-leftist" in this thread, which shows you obviously don't understand what the term means.


Just ask your precious Castro if he'd even allow you to come on the internet. And you still haven't answered any of my questions relating to the insecurity of your glorious leader, so that alone speaks volumes of what you read about Cuba.

Are you back on this again? I've proven several times that Cuban's have internet access. I've been to Cuba several times and used the internet. I talk to comrades from Cuba online every day -- infact I just talked to one! I've posted things Cubans have wrote me about politics in Cuba, etc. But you just ignore it all right?

And this whole thing about "Castro" "Castro" is a bit infintile. Anyone who thinks one man runs a planned economy and state apparatus in a country of 11 million is kidding themself.

I'm possitive I've read much, much more than you on the subject -- your sheer ignorance makes this obvious, and more importantly, as I've mentioned time and time again, I've been to Cuba several times. I lived and worked there. What can you possibly tell me?


but listen man, there is NO right-winged opposition to Castro in Cuba on the sole basis of political homogenization. You have to understand that political freedom DOES NOT EXIST in Cuba. If it did, you would see prominent right-wing figures alongside left-wing figures outside Castro. But you don't.

Why is this bad again? You're major gripe is that there's no right-wing opposition? In Cuba? Do you understand what a revolution is? I'm being serious.

I don't know what you're looking for after a revolution... bourgeois democracy, where right-wing capitalists run for elections??


Recently this year, there was a man who spraypainted across a Cuban church, claiming the majority of Cuba was not with Castro.

:blink:

Oh yeah? One time a man spray painted "AC DC Rules" on a wall in Brooklyn. They don't.

See sig.


The greatest leader of all time? hm. Of the people I've studied, it would have to be a tie between Bhagat Singh of India, or Malcolm X. Had they not been killed, I'm sure they'd be the best leaders of their respective countries. Hope you've been entertained.

:lol: Actually I have, thanks.

[Knowledge 6 6 6]

If you think political homogenization is right, then it obviously shows how horrible your leadership is.

If you honestly can say that all right-winged ppl need to be executed for the progression of the state, then right there, you've proven my point. Sorry man, I like political freedom vs. whatever you call Cuba.

I like the ability to speak my mind in a state and have the right to do so. Go speak with your Cuban comrades and have a field day with 'em. Go to Cuba and live there if you love it so much. Stop talking about how horrible capitalists are and become a communist or whatever you call yourself.

No matter which system you choose - capitalist, or socialist, etc. there WILL be flaws. If you yourself cannot admit these flaws and accept 'em...well, continue doing whatever it is that you do.

As long as it has some relevance.

Whatever, no point arguing with you; you've already made up your mind. Go live in Cuba if you think it's the greatest.

[MoscowFarewell]

Originally posted by Knowledge 6 6 [email protected] 13 2005, 02:55 AM
And MoscowFarewell gets the award for best response. So tell me, how'd you do it?

Idiot.

Listen and listen good - if you think that Castro's great. Great, I'm glad you feel so strongly about him. However if you think for a minute that there is no bad to him...I feel sorry for you. I feel sorry for anyone who thinks that Castro's the greatest leader of all time, because he isn't.

MoscowFarewell - you provide alot of insight into Cuba. Kudos to your knowledge. Kudos to your education. You sound as stupid as George W. Bush is at making excuses for New Orleans. Now shut the fuck up and read some facts about your precious leader.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/castro/sfeatu...ews_bofill.html (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/castro/sfeature/sf_views_bofill.html)

(Now before everyone jumps at me saying 'oh he's just another right-wing political exile in Miami criticizing Castro...actually READ the damn thing and tell me about political freedom Castro grants everyone).


And before I finish, I want to ask a question to everyone here who supports Castro:

Why were those executions during the Cuban revolution necessary? If Castro was so sure of himself and his regime...why would he want to kill large landowners? I mean, someone with as much confidence as Castro should easily allow opposition to exist...wait, that doesnt happen now does it?

If you think I'm feeding you shit, then whatever. Go preach your ultra leftist propoganda to someone else - because I'm sick of telling you all shit you never hear about your glorious leader Fidel.
Listen, jackass, I know because my family is from Santiago, so unlike most of you, I can say from a Cuban point of view. Yes, Fidel isn't all that great, but tell me which recent American President can oust him. Bush? Clinton? Bush Senior? Lets see, how about fuck no. Fidel is better than these current American Presidents, he isn't the best, but he is better than what they had by far. And don't get me wrong, I have no iff on America (living her) or America's entire Presidency. Washington was perhaps one of my favorite leaders of all time.

[fernando]

Originally posted by MoscowFarewell+Sep 12 2005, 11:05 PM--> (MoscowFarewell @ Sep 12 2005, 11:05 PM)
Knowledge 6 6 [email protected] 10 2005, 04:08 PM
You all are so quick to defend Castro..yet not one of you would ever live under him. If you think he's some saint...then why is he STILL violating human rights? That's what I thought..

Hypocrisy amongst many leftist contingents is contageous.
I'm Cuban. I can tell you how it is. So you can shut the fuck up. [/b]
This is not meant as an offense or anything like that, so please dont get me wrong, but if you believe Cuba is so great, why are you living in the US? :unsure:

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

If you think political homogenization is right, then it obviously shows how horrible your leadership is.

What? ??? This doesn't make any sense. Do I believe the working class should (and will) have all power? Yes. I'm a communist.


If you honestly can say that all right-winged ppl need to be executed for the progression of the state, then right there, you've proven my point.

Straw man. Who said anything about all "right-winged" [sic] people being executed? That never happened in Cuba. These people committed crimes and were tried in peoples courts.


Sorry man, I like political freedom vs. whatever you call Cuba.

I call it socialist. And your comment shows your sheer ignorance. Everything in class-divided society reflects class divisions. You can't just say "political freedom" in some abstract sense. Political freedom for whom? To do what?


I like the ability to speak my mind in a state and have the right to do so.

Cubans have the right to speak their minds. Read the book "Conversations with Cuba" by C. Peter Ripley. He's not particularly friendly to the revolution at all. In his book he talks about the first person he ever met in Cuba. The first words out of his mouth were "FUCK FIDEL!"

There goes that argument.


Go speak with your Cuban comrades and have a field day with 'em.

So that means your finally admitting Cubans have internet access?


Go to Cuba and live there if you love it so much. Stop talking about how horrible capitalists are and become a communist or whatever you call yourself.

This isn't even coheirant.


No matter which system you choose - capitalist, or socialist, etc. there WILL be flaws. If you yourself cannot admit these flaws and accept 'em...well, continue doing whatever it is that you do.

When did I say there were no problems in Cuba??

Perfection is an abstract concept.. but as for socialism, it beats the alternative.

As long as it has some relevance.


Whatever, no point arguing with you; you've already made up your mind.

You're right, and it's based on the truth. I've constantly deflated all of your "arguments" with facts.


Go live in Cuba if you think it's the greatest.

Do you have a book of "101 Greatest Bourgeois Arguments" or something? :lol:

What you're saying is not practical at all. Did every communist move to the USSR in 1917? Should all communists move to Cuba now?? Of course not. Is it even possible? No. They should work towards revolution in their own country.

That's why I'm doing. I'm a communist, what are you?

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2005, 11:57 PM
This is not meant as an offense or anything like that, so please dont get me wrong, but if you believe Cuba is so great, why are you living in the US?
Alot of Mexicans like Mexico much better than the U.S. They move to it for economic reasons.

Same reason so many Europeans did last century.

"Cuba has been condemned for not allowing its people to flee the island. That so many want to leave Cuba is treated as proof that Cuban socialism is a harshly repressive system, rather than that the U.S. embargo has made life difficult in Cuba. That so many millions more want to leave capitalist countries like Mexico, Nigeria, Poland, El Salvador, Philippines, South Korea, Macedonia, and others too numerous to list is never treated as grounds for questioning the free-market system that inflicts such misery on the Third World." - Michael Parenti

&

From this (http://www.freepeoplesmovement.org/ry/faq.html) F.A.Q.:

Q: Why do so many people leave Cuba and go to the United States?
A: Actually, by percentage, few Cubans actually leave Cuba, and there are many issues involved. Firstly, before the Cuban Revolution the United States gave very few Cubans visas to come to the United States, but after the revolution the doors were opened wide. Secondly, the United States has held an unjust trade embargo against Cuba for 40 years (which has been condemed several times in the United Nations by almost every country in the world) which has caused the people of Cuba to suffer. Finally, the United States enacted the 'Cuban Adjustment Act', the only act of its kind anywhere in the world, which grants residency to anyone, no matter if they are a criminal or not, who leaves Cuba and reaches the United States in any fashion. Imagine if the same act applied to all of Latin America! How many people from other countries would leave for the United States? How many people leave places like Mexico and the Dominican Republic now?

[tebvie]

For some it's an obsession and for some it's the curiosity that leads to knowledge. I was so unknowledgable in a lot of things, including communism/socialism until I saw a poster of Che. I was at my sisters friends apartment in highschool and I was like who's this and he told me a little, that before you knew it I was doing reserach. It's what he stood for and the courage he had to stand up for ideals that the majority of the world is trying to put down to keep those down down.

[Knowledge 6 6 6]

Originally posted by CompaneroDeLibertad+Sep 14 2005, 12:08 AM--> (CompaneroDeLibertad @ Sep 14 2005, 12:08 AM)
[email protected] 13 2005, 11:57 PM
This is not meant as an offense or anything like that, so please dont get me wrong, but if you believe Cuba is so great, why are you living in the US?
Alot of Mexicans like Mexico much better than the U.S. They move to it for economic reasons.

Same reason so many Europeans did last century.

"Cuba has been condemned for not allowing its people to flee the island. That so many want to leave Cuba is treated as proof that Cuban socialism is a harshly repressive system, rather than that the U.S. embargo has made life difficult in Cuba. That so many millions more want to leave capitalist countries like Mexico, Nigeria, Poland, El Salvador, Philippines, South Korea, Macedonia, and others too numerous to list is never treated as grounds for questioning the free-market system that inflicts such misery on the Third World." - Michael Parenti

&

From this (http://www.freepeoplesmovement.org/ry/faq.html) F.A.Q.:

Q: Why do so many people leave Cuba and go to the United States?
A: Actually, by percentage, few Cubans actually leave Cuba, and there are many issues involved. Firstly, before the Cuban Revolution the United States gave very few Cubans visas to come to the United States, but after the revolution the doors were opened wide. Secondly, the United States has held an unjust trade embargo against Cuba for 40 years (which has been condemed several times in the United Nations by almost every country in the world) which has caused the people of Cuba to suffer. Finally, the United States enacted the 'Cuban Adjustment Act', the only act of its kind anywhere in the world, which grants residency to anyone, no matter if they are a criminal or not, who leaves Cuba and reaches the United States in any fashion. Imagine if the same act applied to all of Latin America! How many people from other countries would leave for the United States? How many people leave places like Mexico and the Dominican Republic now? [/b]
For once, I partially agree with you, but a problem arises -

The Cuban Embargo was done because capitalist America doesn't want to trade with a system that opposes them, and since the invasion of the bay of pigs, there's been a luming insecurity with the US in regards to Cuba. Remember also that up until the collapse of the USSR, Castro was not too worried as the Soviets would supply Cuba with necessities. However as you know (and is well-documented), Cuba faced, and to an extent is still facing a severe economic crisis.

The Embargo will continue because free trade is opposed; free markets, etc. So to say the Embargo caused people to suffer is partially right...but also is wrong because it isn't like Castro would want to do trade with America anyway.