IRA and Sein Feinn [Archive]

The Grey Blur

17th September 2005, 15:07

Originally posted by Le [email protected] 17 2005, 02:15 AM
I know this girl who is very proud of her Catholic Irish hertage. I frequently get her goat by saying the Irish were at fault for not diveserving their crops and leading to the Potatoe Famine. It really pisses her off. Any who, we started talking about the IRA and Sien Finn, and she said that they were protestant, while I said they were Catholic. She then claimed they were Left wing, while I said they were Right wing. Who's right?
OK, the thing about the Irish Famine is not only disrespectful but stupid (making fun of famine victims is as bad as making 'gas chamber' jokes about Jews), the Irish famine victims had to pay crippling amounts of money to unjust Bitish land-lords just to stay on their land, thus they did not have enough money to diversify their crops from the cheapest and best-growing source - na prataí. Also the British government should have done more to help those affected.

Your freind is obviously a retard as are you. First off, you should make a clear distinction between the IRA and Sinn Féin; Sinn Féin are the major republican political party in Ireland who have contested the British Government, unionists and Free State lackeys over equality, sectarianism and a United Ireland. They are of a majority Catholic (listen up all you generalizing pricks) but have had many a protestant in their ranks, as the case of Cllr. Billy Leonard (a former RUC officer who joined Sinn Féin.)

I am sooooo pissed off that people continue this shit about the IRA after my reply in another thread where I broke down the various incarnations of The IRA and could not be fucked writing it all out again.

Sinn Féin are left-wing end-of-story.

The Grey Blur

17th September 2005, 15:15

Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2005, 02:47 AM
There left wing catholics (dont ask).
Being Catholic has always been second-place to being a republican. For example I don't go to mass on Sunday don't pray etc but I would be considered a Catholic by a loyalist and a Unionist.

Also, the Catholic church in the north of Ireland during the troubles was the most spiteful, self-aggrandizing creature; it refused to give support to a the IRA, to Sinn Féin, it basically sat on its fucking white horse telling man-on-the-street Catholics not to fucking help the IRA while it fucking well sat there cronieing up to those Bastards in Downing Street...Guess What!?...They're now hailing themselves as the saviours of Irish culture!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

FUCK OFF!!!

The Grey Blur

17th September 2005, 15:21

Originally posted by black banner black [email protected] 17 2005, 03:31 AM
The IRA and Sinn Fein are (generally) Catholic, but they're also left-wing. It really depends on which IRA we're talking about... though most of them are in defense of Catholic Irish folks, as opposed to the loyalists who are mostly Protestant.
I would guess he was talking about the Provos as they are the most popular, the only group who are ready and wiling to do whatever is neccessary to achieve a United Ireland, and the group that are seen by the majority of republicans as the true IRA.

They defended opressesed Republican estates during the troubles abut have ceased there activities as a gesture that hopefully will force the Unionists off their fat arse and into talks with Sinn Féin.

The Grey Blur

17th September 2005, 15:22

Originally posted by Sir Aunty Christ+Sep 17 2005, 08:31 AM--> (Sir Aunty Christ @ Sep 17 2005, 08:31 AM)
black banner black [email protected] 17 2005, 04:31 AM
The IRA and Sinn Fein are (generally) Catholic, but they're also left-wing.
Generally.

I know a couple of Sinn Fein members and they spout the most Capitalistic nonsense I've ever heard. [/b]
BullSHIT!

The Grey Blur

17th September 2005, 15:27

Originally posted by rioters [email protected] 17 2005, 09:53 AM
they were fighting for autonomy and independence. the ira and sinn fein weren't so much bound by their politics as their religion/nationalism. so i wouldn't really classify them left OR right. while they were suspected to have ties with leftie regimes in south america, they were also suspected to have ties with nazi germany. they had some cool left-wing members though.

and yeah, they were definitely catholic. no doubt about that.
The IRA have no ties with South America, they had no ties with Nazi Germany (and that was Collin's era IRA you're mistakingly accusing of things, not the provos as I believe he was referring to)

Again the IRA were not entirely catholic and again I have to yat again re-iterate that religion is secondary, they are not like the orangemen - they're not some club for bigots, the Provos were well-discplined,well-organized freedom fighters

The Grey Blur

17th September 2005, 15:50

Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2005, 11:35 AM
they were IRISH. no more, no less. they bargained opportunisticly with nazi germany during WWII cuz the american representative in ireland at that time was unsympathetic to irish neutrality, while the german rep actually didnt want ireland to be invaded, by england, america OR germany. also there was an old IRA/IRB mentality, probably stemming from WW1, that "britains problem is irelands opportunity". but after the war, they started dealing with lefty movements around the world, as they posed the new threat to imperialism.

personally, i supported the ira when they wanted irish freedom and unity, ie when they were left-wing, but by the time they decommissioned they were a bunch of thugs and gangsters. i think that with them out of the picture, the old vice of sectarianism can be swept aside, the workers can put aside their differences and create a workers republic of ireland!

oh, and will somebody please kill ian paisley?
They had no links to Nazi Germany, it was during the first world war when the 1916 revolution occured they (the old Irish Volounteer army) attempted to procure arms from Germany.

That thing you said

"but after the war, they started dealing with lefty movements around the world, as they posed the new threat to imperialism."

is hilarious, wtf are you talking about? The IRA were taking out British Army snipers on the Falls Road, not battling imperialism around the world.

Where are you from that you can say that shit about the IRA you fucking West-Brit? Do you know any IRA members? By this I mean Provos (obviously).
I just can't get over the fact that you pretend to know something the politiacl situation when you write this shit.

"by the time they decommissioned they were a bunch of thugs and gangsters."

They were not 'thugs and gangsters' they were dedicated men who knew that the only way to move forward was to cease activity. They did not decommision all their weapons either.

"I think that with them out of the picture, the old vice of sectarianism can be swept aside, the workers can put aside their differences and create a workers republic of ireland!""

WHAT!?!?!?!?!??! What about the loyalists and unionists? What about the armed forces and their spy-towers? What about dissidents? What about the free state? What about devolution? What about...Get your head out of the clouds and live in the real world.

Killing Paisley would be stupid as he is 79 and has a form of lung cancer, also he would simply be replaced as well as martyred.

Sir Aunty Christ

17th September 2005, 15:56

Originally posted by Rage Against The Machine+Sep 17 2005, 03:53 PM--> (Rage Against The Machine @ Sep 17 2005, 03:53 PM)
Originally posted by Sir Aunty [email protected] 17 2005, 08:31 AM

black banner black [email protected] 17 2005, 04:31 AM
The IRA and Sinn Fein are (generally) Catholic, but they're also left-wing.
Generally.

I know a couple of Sinn Fein members and they spout the most Capitalistic nonsense I've ever heard.
BullSHIT! [/b]
I didn't say ALL Sinn Fein members. Just a couple that I know.

bcbm

17th September 2005, 16:10

They had no links to Nazi Germany, it was during the first world war when the 1916 revolution occured they (the old Irish Volounteer army) attempted to procure arms from Germany.

That's not entirely true... remember Sean Russell? The IRA flirted with the Nazis in an "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" sort of game, but if I recall it didn't really go anywhere.

Socialist Dave

17th September 2005, 16:19

There'd be no point, y'know with him being 79 and all that. Anyway he isn't martyr material.

He is a secterian, loyalist bastard. He is martyr material.

Paisley isn't really treated like a hero by unionists. Some people (too many people) agree with him but many don't.

He would be if he was murdered.

Also, the Catholic church in the north of Ireland during the troubles was the most spiteful, self-aggrandizing creature; it refused to give support to a the IRA, to Sinn Féin, it basically sat on its fucking white horse telling man-on-the-street Catholics not to fucking help the IRA while it fucking well sat there cronieing up to those Bastards in Downing Street...Guess What!?...They're now hailing themselves as the saviours of Irish culture!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The IRA were, and still are a terrorist organisation. They've blown up hundereds of innocent people. Why would they support them? And anyway there are virtualy no Irish Republicans in the IRA since the good friday agreement. They're just drug pushers and gangsters now. Lokk at the Robert McCartney case. They brutaly murdered an innocent man who was trying to protect his friend after a misunderstanding in a bar. How is that protecting a minority, the thing they are meant to be doing?

Redmau5

17th September 2005, 16:38

Sinn Féin are left-wing end-of-story.

So you believe that if Sinn Fein was in power in a 32-county Irish republic they'd set us on the path to socialism? :lol:

I don't think Sinn Fein politicians would give up their salaries that easily.

BullSHIT!

So when top republicans like Sean "Spike" Murray own three businesses and have houses in Spain, Sligo etc., that's not capitalistic? Open your eyes for fuck sake.

You only have to walk through the areas and you can tell which houses belong to Sinn Fein councilors and ex-Provos.

The IRA have no ties with South America,

So what about the Colombia three? They just magically ended up in South America training members of FARC did they?

Where are you from that you can say that shit about the IRA you fucking West-Brit? Do you know any IRA members? By this I mean Provos (obviously).

So you have to be from somewhere in order to pass judgement on people? By your logic I can't judge the Nazis as im not from Germany.

They were not 'thugs and gangsters' they were dedicated men who knew that the only way to move forward was to cease activity. They did not decommision all their weapons either.

I agree. There are still many good men and women in the IRA who have gave their whole lives to the struggle and yet still have nothing to show for it. But there is also a hell of alot of scum in the IRA nowadays, who are only concerned with money and a reputation.

bulrog

17th September 2005, 16:41

The IRA didn't kill McCartney, the men happened to be in the IRA but they didn't act on the IRA's behalf, they acted on their own accord.

Socialist Dave

17th September 2005, 16:42

No, that's exactly what the IRA are like these days. They're just mobsters.

The Grey Blur

17th September 2005, 20:53

Originally posted by Socialist [email protected] 17 2005, 03:50 PM
The IRA were, and still are a terrorist organisation. They've blown up hundereds of innocent people. Why would they support them? And anyway there are virtualy no Irish Republicans in the IRA since the good friday agreement. They're just drug pushers and gangsters now. Lokk at the Robert McCartney case. They brutaly murdered an innocent man who was trying to protect his friend after a misunderstanding in a bar. How is that protecting a minority, the thing they are meant to be doing?

The IRA were, and still are a terrorist organisation

You believe they are terrorists, I believe they defended my people when no one else would.

They've blown up hundereds of innocent people.

Wrong, they attacked loyalist gangs, the British Army and the British Government, occasionally there was tragic deaths that the IRA regretted but if you wish to bully, murder and oppress people in there homeland you should not be surprised when they retaliate with force.

And anyway there are virtualy no Irish Republicans in the IRA since the good friday agreement.

I would be interested in ascertaining where you got that information from as it grossly inaccurate. If there were no Irish Republicans left in the Irish Republican Army why did they agree to Sinn Féin request to cease activites?

They're just drug pushers and gangsters now.

Ah, yes the eternal, desperate cry - They're Criminals!, Sectarian Criminals! - The IRA have never dealt in drugs, ever. No one deals drugs in Nationalist areas and if they do deal drugs initially bought from loyalist, basically every single whack of blow bought is another twenty quid in a loyalist kingpin's pockets. My idiot-ass dope-smoker friend has to go to the Shankill to buy his shit. Of the same people that murdered his uncle and cousin.

Look at the Robert McCartney case.

The people that murdered Robert McCartney were dealt with immediately by the IRA. They have no part in republicanism. Also, the McCartney family has turned their bereavment into some sort of publicity stunt, they travel about around the place spreading untruths about Provo intimidation. My friend who lives in the Short Strand said that they have constantly, perhaps purposefully, mis-construed attempts by local women's groups to show solidarity.

How is that protecting a minority, the thing they are meant to be doing?

*Civil Rights & Equality for Catholics

*Defense of Nationalist communities

*The destruction of Stormount goverments exclusively run by Unionists

*To eliminate every trace of Imperial Britain from Ireland

These are "the things they are meant to be doing" since 1969

The Grey Blur

17th September 2005, 21:08

Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2005, 04:09 PM

Sinn Féin are left-wing end-of-story.

So you believe that if Sinn Fein was in power in a 32-county Irish republic they'd set us on the path to socialism? :lol:

I don't think Sinn Fein politicians would give up their salaries that easily.

BullSHIT!

So when top republicans like Sean "Spike" Murray own three businesses and have houses in Spain, Sligo etc., that's not capitalistic? Open your eyes for fuck sake.

You only have to walk through the areas and you can tell which houses belong to Sinn Fein councilors and ex-Provos.

The IRA have no ties with South America,

So what about the Colombia three? They just magically ended up in South America training members of FARC did they?

Where are you from that you can say that shit about the IRA you fucking West-Brit? Do you know any IRA members? By this I mean Provos (obviously).

So you have to be from somewhere in order to pass judgement on people? By your logic I can't judge the Nazis as im not from Germany.

They were not 'thugs and gangsters' they were dedicated men who knew that the only way to move forward was to cease activity. They did not decommision all their weapons either.

I agree. There are still many good men and women in the IRA who have gave their whole lives to the struggle and yet still have nothing to show for it. But there is also a hell of alot of scum in the IRA nowadays, who are only concerned with money and a reputation.
I'm sorry but honestly your stuff sounds like it was quoted out of The Daily Mail or something, I just cannot take you seriously.

I remember I argued with someone else about the whole 'Sinn Fein holiday home' bullshit. Gerry Adams lives in Norfolk Street, it's an estate close to me, he has a home in Donegall as do quite a few republicans, so what?

Sinn Féin are more concerned with unemployment, violence, governing than whether are not they're capitalistic.

The Columbia three were never convicted of anything apart from having false passports.

The rest of the bullshit you try to pass of as fact is laughable.

The Grey Blur

17th September 2005, 21:10

Originally posted by Socialist [email protected] 17 2005, 04:13 PM
No, that's exactly what the IRA are like these days. They're just mobsters.
And how would you know? I'm not trying to say I'm this expert on IRA stuff or that people outside ireland can't comment but honestly...where do you guys find these lies? How can you believe them?

Batman

17th September 2005, 21:13

Where do we start? I suppose, at the start? ;)

I know this girl who is very proud of her Catholic Irish hertage. I frequently get her goat by saying the Irish were at fault for not diveserving their crops and leading to the Potatoe Famine. It really pisses her off.

First of all, there was no famine in Ireland. The potatoe crop failed but there was no famine. The food in which the Irish people produced had to sold in order to pay for their high rent and tax rents to the landlord and capitalist class. i.e the British Imperialists. The food was shipped from Irish ports and were sold in north England, places like Newcastel, the industrial heartland of the Britain. Thus the Iirsh people ran the industrialisation of the British Empire while they starved to death because of the system. The system of Capitalism.

Any who, we started talking about the IRA and Sien Finn, and she said that they were protestant, while I said they were Catholic. She then claimed they were Left wing, while I said they were Right wing. Who's right?

Sinn Fein is neither Catholic nor Protestant. They're Republicanism. Republicanism is anathema to sectarianism and reaction of any kind. They would be classed as Left-Wing. Personally I'd consider them Social-Democratic but it's up to the person themselves really.

slim

17th September 2005, 21:47

However,

Home rule protestants in the north are anti republican due to its pro 32 county perspective and this usually makes Sinn Fein, the IRA and Republicanism steriotypically catholic.

Redmau5

18th September 2005, 13:51

I'm sorry but honestly your stuff sounds like it was quoted out of The Daily Mail or something, I just cannot take you seriously.

No, it's taken from watching Sinn Fein change as i've grew older. I used to support Sinn Fein, but im totally disillusioned with them now. By the way, is there a RA man holding a gun to your head when you type? Because you don't seem to see any fault in them, at all.

I remember I argued with someone else about the whole 'Sinn Fein holiday home' bullshit. Gerry Adams lives in Norfolk Street, it's an estate close to me, he has a home in Donegall as do quite a few republicans, so what?

I know where he lives. The point is most of the people who vote for them can only dream of owning holiday homes. Sinn Fein have become completely alienated from the Republican working-class which they are supposed to represent. Sinn Fein politicians have done extremely well out of the political situation here, while most of the people who truly worked for a united Ireland are now lying in Milltown and the City cemetary.

Sinn Féin are more concerned with unemployment, violence, governing than whether are not they're capitalistic.

They're also concerned with keeping the money rolling in. :rolleyes:

The Columbia three were never convicted of anything apart from having false passports.

Were they in Colombia on holiday?

The rest of the bullshit you try to pass of as fact is laughable.

Keep on telling yourself that.

Socialist Dave

18th September 2005, 14:53

RATM, I admire the old IRA, before the Good Friday agreement. I don't doubt that have killed many loyalist bastards. But you can't deny that they have killed hundereds of people. How do you explain the bombings in in England that they were responsible for? They were attacking innocents, there was no need for it.

Sir Aunty Christ

18th September 2005, 14:55

Originally posted by Socialist [email protected] 18 2005, 03:24 PM
RATM, I admire the old IRA, before the Good Friday agreement. I don't doubt that have killed many loyalist bastards. But you can't deny that they have killed hundereds of people. How do you explain the bombings in in England that they were responsible for? They were attacking innocents, there was no need for it.
I think you are very confused.

Batman

18th September 2005, 18:16

Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2005, 09:18 PM
However,

Home rule protestants in the north are anti republican due to its pro 32 county perspective and this usually makes Sinn Fein, the IRA and Republicanism steriotypically catholic.
Theobald Wolfe Tone, the Founding member of modern day Irish Republicanism was a Protestant.

Redmau5

18th September 2005, 18:43

Originally posted by Socialist [email protected] 18 2005, 02:24 PM
RATM, I admire the old IRA, before the Good Friday agreement. I don't doubt that have killed many loyalist bastards. But you can't deny that they have killed hundereds of people. How do you explain the bombings in in England that they were responsible for? They were attacking innocents, there was no need for it.
So it's ok to bomb our own people, just not the English?

And remember, the British army was killing innocents over here as well.

bcbm

19th September 2005, 21:32

Does anybody have the exact figures on who's been killed (ie soldiers, loyalists paramils, etc)? I know they're out there.

Seven Stars

19th September 2005, 21:33

You all shouldn't bother arguing about Republicanism with these so called lefties, they go on and on about Revolution but when it actually happens they condemn it. While we may have our differences about republican politics, Makaveli_05, Rage Against The Machine, and Batman, but we share the same basic goal and a common history. People on this forum who claim to be left wing but then go and call the IRA terrorists are nothing but wannabes who are completely out of touch with the real world.

bcbm

19th September 2005, 21:50

Indeed, revolution rarely fits itself into the perfect mold some people want.

Redmau5

19th September 2005, 21:54

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2005, 09:04 PM
You all shouldn't bother arguing about Republicanism with these so called lefties, they go on and on about Revolution but when it actually happens they condemn it. While we may have our differences about republican politics, Makaveli_05, Rage Against The Machine, and Batman, but we share the same basic goal and a common history. People on this forum who claim to be left wing but then go and call the IRA terrorists are nothing but wannabes who are completely out of touch with the real world.
I for one would not call the IRA terrorists, and I would defend them through thick and thin. I have no problem with the IRA, just Sinn Fein politicians who claim to represent our community.

NSov

20th September 2005, 12:47

Hope ye don't mind another voice.

The IRA movement came into existance in the late 1910s and after the civil war almost became extinct. It lead two failed campaigns in the 40s and 50s, with no more then a handfull of supporters. What made the IRA was the prodestant burnings of Catholic homes in 1969. The Unionist community gave the IRA a reason dete and forced the people of the North into the arms of the IRA.

At a peace march in 1971 (72?) the British Army shot dead 13 inocent people and planted weapons on some of them. They shot dead one man waveing a white handkerchif as he tried to help a wonded victim.

These where the incidents that allowed the IRA to come to position that it was in at the height of the troubles. Unionists bought the IRA to power, gave them a reason to arm and train, and to bomb. The IRA had a few bad messups when it came to bombing operations most certinaly. Inocent people were killed in a war they had participation in. What some here are trying to do is condem the IRA due to the death of inocent people. Then we should condem communisim becuase the purges happened!

Revolution isn't all fun and games. The British army rolls a dice and gets a 4, and needs to role a two or higher or one of it's battalions gets attacked. They only get a 1, and Gerry Adams roles a 5 to wipe them off the table.

Sadly, as we in Ireland know, inocent people do die in the name of freedom and Justice. Was it just that a family of 7 catholics could only have 1 vote between them when a unionist and his wife had 3? Was it just that large catholic families were left without houseing while young single prodestants where put to the front of the line? "A Prodestant Parliment for a Prodestant people" some unionist nut (Lord Beeverbroke if I remember correctly) once said. It was this discrimitary system that allowed the IRA to become so strong. What were the nationilists and republicians to do, sit back and take it?

But I do agree that the Columbia 3 should be sent to prision for aiding (if they did, which I don't belive they did) a left wing organisation...LEFT... the way some of you are talking I think your centerists. "lets lead a revolution!!! No, it's raining, might get my Armani wet, lets wait awhile!" Most certinaly FARC are going about there campaign wrong. In recent years the IRA saw how hard it was to work without the support of the people. Anyway, the evidence of the prosocuters chief witness was completely ridiculed by the defense lawyers, the government just needed scape goats

The Grey Blur

20th September 2005, 15:44

@Makaveli - If what you say is true then why do people vote for them year after year, why does the majority of catholics, working class or otherwise, support them - are you the only one who can see through their ploy?

Redmau5

20th September 2005, 18:23

Originally posted by Rage Against The [email protected] 20 2005, 03:15 PM
@Makaveli - If what you say is true then why do people vote for them year after year, why does the majority of catholics, working class or otherwise, support them - are you the only one who can see through their ploy?
Who else are they gonna vote for, the SDLP? Great choice there.

And sometimes it can be intimidating when a couple of men bang on people's doors and ask "have you voted yet?"

Sir Aunty Christ

20th September 2005, 18:33

Originally posted by Makaveli_05+Sep 20 2005, 06:54 PM--> (Makaveli_05 @ Sep 20 2005, 06:54 PM)
Rage Against The [email protected] 20 2005, 03:15 PM
@Makaveli - If what you say is true then why do people vote for them year after year, why does the majority of catholics, working class or otherwise, support them - are you the only one who can see through their ploy?
Who else are they gonna vote for, the SDLP? Great choice there.

And sometimes it can be intimidating when a couple of men bang on people's doors and ask "have you voted yet?" [/b]
During the last Assembly the DUP were running buses to the polling station so I took the bus...

and voted for an entirely different party.

bulrog

20th September 2005, 19:21

The lack of good leftist alternatives can be an issue for a lot of people, the only socialist party I saw was The Socialist Environmentalist Alliance, not a very strong force in politics at all (I would mention the workers Party but their hopeless).

Not once did I see a socialist party candidate in Belfast, not even the posters.

Batman

20th September 2005, 20:39

Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2005, 06:52 PM
The lack of good leftist alternatives can be an issue for a lot of people, the only socialist party I saw was The Socialist Environmentalist Alliance, not a very strong force in politics at all (I would mention the workers Party but their hopeless).

Not once did I see a socialist party candidate in Belfast, not even the posters.
The Workers Party actually got more votes than the Socialist Party (CWI) in the last election.

The reason there is a lack of a Socialist alternative in the six counties and in Ireland as a whole is because of partition and the fact that the struggle for National Liberation is not yet complete.

UP THE RA! :D

The Grey Blur

21st September 2005, 16:39

No, it's taken from watching Sinn Fein change as i've grew older.

What did you expect them to do? Continue the war, when we have gone as far as armed struggle will bring us? Did you expect them to forever stay some ancient dinosaur? They progress ahead, adapt and evolve; I suggest you do the same.

I used to support Sinn Fein, but im totally disillusioned with them now.

Why? In what way have they diverged from their original plans that has upset you - is it the lack of a socialist leaning? - if so you could support the IRSP. (as Óglach would no doubt inform you)

By the way, is there a RA man holding a gun to your head when you type? Because you don't seem to see any fault in them, at all.

The same could be said of Redstar2000 when he speaks of the great communists philosiphers or Óglach when he speaks of the IRSP, it is called belief

I know where he lives. The point is most of the people who vote for them can only dream of owning holiday homes.

They vote for Sinn Féin so that one day in a United Ireland their sons and daughters can own holiday homes.

Also, what is wrong with Adams buying a holiday home?

Sinn Fein have become completely alienated from the Republican working-class which they are supposed to represent.

You are one of those people who believes that all republicans should be living in ghettoes, mired in their own shit. The truth is that republicanism is just as much a second generation middle class thing now as it was a first generation working-class thing - how have republicans managed this? - by taking advantage of opportunities that without Sinn Féin would never have existed.

+ the fact that more and more former SDLP voters now vote for Sinn Féin

Sinn Fein politicians have done extremely well out of the political situation here,

Lies, where is evidence, use sources.

My dad was Sinn Féin coucillour for 8 years, we're middle-class.

while most of the people who truly worked for a united Ireland are now lying in Milltown and the City cemetary.

You mean (in chronological order);

Jim Murphy
Paul Best
Colm Mulgrew
Derek Highstead
Noel Jenkinson
Máire Drumm
Séan Ó Cónaill
Peter Corrigan
Jeff McKenna
Paddy Brady
John Davey
Tommy Casey
Sam Marshall
Eddie Fullerton
Pádraig Ó Seanachaín
Tommy Donaghy
Bernard Ó' Hagan
Pat McBride
Paddy Louhran
Danny Cassidy
Sheena Campbell
Malachy Gray
Peter Gallagher
Alan Lundy
Pat McGeown

-all Sinn Féin members.

Were they in Colombia on holiday?

No, but why do you think IRA members being in Columbia is an issue?

Keep on telling yourself that.

I'll do that, oh and by the way,

FÁGAIGÍ AS BEALACH SLUAITE NA BHFIANN!

P.S How old are you? Because if you are old enough you could be working or involved with any number of things that could benefit you community (and yourself) yet instead you sit here arguing with me and critiscising Sinn Féin when you should be taking advantage of the opportunities you have open to you because of them.

Redmau5

21st September 2005, 18:18

What did you expect them to do? Continue the war, when we have gone as far as armed struggle will bring us? Did you expect them to forever stay some ancient dinosaur? They progress ahead, adapt and evolve; I suggest you do the same.

I know the war got us as far as we can go, but tell me, what's the difference between the SDLP and Sinn Fein? As far as I can see, very little. And by the way, do you support the Policing Board?

Why? In what way have they diverged from their original plans that has upset you - is it the lack of a socialist leaning? - if so you could support the IRSP. (as Óglach would no doubt inform you)

There was a statement made in 1986 in which Gerry Adams said that if Sinn Fein ever gave up the armed struggle they couldn't count him as a member. Martin McGuinness said something similar. That's a pretty big diversion (I'll get you the sources later by the way). Yes, the lack of socialist leaning does annoy me.

The same could be said of Redstar2000 when he speaks of the great communists philosiphers or Óglach when he speaks of the IRSP, it is called belief

So you can't find any fault with Sinn Fein at all? That's not belief, that's fanaticism

They vote for Sinn Féin so that one day in a United Ireland their sons and daughters can own holiday homes.

But it's not just about a United Ireland, it's about now. The SDLP have always wanted a United Ireland, but yet they still lose votes. So it's not the first priority on alot of people's minds.

Also, what is wrong with Adams buying a holiday home?

What's wrong is he got rich off the struggle, like most other Sinn Fein political bureacrats who do very little yet still get paid bucket loads.

You are one of those people who believes that all republicans should be living in ghettoes, mired in their own shit

Who are you to say what I believe? No, I don't believe all republicans should live in ghettoes, I don't believe anyone should be living in ghettoes. But the fact of the matter is alot of them still do, while their "leaders" are living in their nice middle-class residence worrying about the next car they're gonna buy.

The truth is that republicanism is just as much a second generation middle class thing now as it was a first generation working-class thing - how have republicans managed this? - by taking advantage of opportunities that without Sinn Féin would never have existed.

I don't want "middle-class republicans". James Connolly would be spinning in his grave.

+ the fact that more and more former SDLP voters now vote for Sinn Féin

Again, middle-class voters who now see extreme similarities between the SDLP and Sinn Fein, which is why they switch.

Lies, where is evidence, use sources.

My dad was Sinn Féin coucillour for 8 years, we're middle-class.

So sitting doin nothing and still getting paid for it isn't doing well?

And if you're middle-class, you've obviously done well.

No, but why do you think IRA members being in Columbia is an issue?

You brought it up.

P.S How old are you? Because if you are old enough you could be working or involved with any number of things that could benefit you community (and yourself) yet instead you sit here arguing with me and critiscising Sinn Féin when you should be taking advantage of the opportunities you have open to you because of them.

17. Why don't you praise the Civil Rights Movement? They done far more in making the plight of catholics known than Sinn Fein did.

The Grey Blur

21st September 2005, 18:35

COMPUTER FUCKED UP< WILL RESPOND SOON

Seven Stars

21st September 2005, 20:23

Rage Against The Machine, you must be blind if you can not see how Provisional Sinn Fein have went against the orginal goals of Irish Republicanism. The Republican Movement is a Revolutionary Movement, the provisonals have now gone down the reformist constitutional path, leaving Republicanism behind. They have done what Collins, Dev, Goulding and countless others have done, sold out the Irish Republic. They have given up weapons given to them for the liberation of Ireland, weapons that belong to the Irish people. They are now apart of the British System in Ireland and are administering british rule in Ireland.

"Has any man here the hardihood to stand up and say that it was for this our fathers suffered, that it was for this our comrades have died in the field and in the barrack yard?"
- Austin Stack, on partition

VietMinH

21st September 2005, 21:39

Just a little something, in the London bombings by the IRA a lot of the funding came from the good ol US of A....and lets not forget about Osama's mujahadeen...

The Grey Blur

21st September 2005, 21:41

Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2005, 07:54 PM
Rage Against The Machine, you must be blind if you can not see how Provisional Sinn Fein have went against the orginal goals of Irish Republicanism. The Republican Movement is a Revolutionary Movement, the provisonals have now gone down the reformist constitutional path, leaving Republicanism behind. They have done what Collins, Dev, Goulding and countless others have done, sold out the Irish Republic. They have given up weapons given to them for the liberation of Ireland, weapons that belong to the Irish people. They are now apart of the British System in Ireland and are administering british rule in Ireland.

"Has any man here the hardihood to stand up and say that it was for this our fathers suffered, that it was for this our comrades have died in the field and in the barrack yard?"
- Austin Stack, on partition
I will get to Makaveli soon enough <_<

Provisional Sinn Fein

Who's this?

Anyway, since the link in your sig shows you to be a continuity supporter I have one question for you?

What the hell has the continuity done? The only continuity members I know are car-thiefs who use the 'Continuity' as a cover.

Redmau5

21st September 2005, 21:52

I will get to Makaveli soon enough

What? :blink:

Seven Stars

21st September 2005, 23:27

Originally posted by Rage Against The Machine+Sep 21 2005, 09:12 PM--> (Rage Against The Machine @ Sep 21 2005, 09:12 PM)
[email protected] 21 2005, 07:54 PM
Rage Against The Machine, you must be blind if you can not see how Provisional Sinn Fein have went against the orginal goals of Irish Republicanism. The Republican Movement is a Revolutionary Movement, the provisonals have now gone down the reformist constitutional path, leaving Republicanism behind. They have done what Collins, Dev, Goulding and countless others have done, sold out the Irish Republic. They have given up weapons given to them for the liberation of Ireland, weapons that belong to the Irish people. They are now apart of the British System in Ireland and are administering british rule in Ireland.

"Has any man here the hardihood to stand up and say that it was for this our fathers suffered, that it was for this our comrades have died in the field and in the barrack yard?"
- Austin Stack, on partition
I will get to Makaveli soon enough <_<

Provisional Sinn Fein

Who's this?

Anyway, since the link in your sig shows you to be a continuity supporter I have one question for you?

What the hell has the continuity done? The only continuity members I know are car-thiefs who use the 'Continuity' as a cover. [/b]
You know very well who Provisional Sinn Fein are, and people who use the name of the CIRA as a cover are not actualy members. It was the CIRA who attacked the RUC on the 12th and it was the Provos who condemned their actions.

The Grey Blur

21st September 2005, 23:28

I know the war got us as far as we can go, but tell me, what's the difference between the SDLP and Sinn Fein? As far as I can see, very little. And by the way, do you support the Policing Board?

Where did this come from? What does this matter? Here is an old post I made about this just copied and pasted - can't remember what thread it was in and I don't care, I'm not starting a stupid arguement.

The difference between the SDLP and Sinn Féin;

Sinn Féin supported the provos in the armed struggle, they were and still are grass-roots republicans, they supported the hunger-strikers, etc.

But I take it you mean in the here and now what the difference is;

A lot of young, imaginative councillours and assembly people - the average age of the SDLP member is 43, the average age of Sinn Féin - 27.

The complete commitment to furthering of republican causes; securing money for Irish-language schemes, youth clubs, prisoner's association's, etc.

Sinn Féin are in touch with their electorate; whatever you may think Sinn Féin gain the most votes in working-class and middle-class areas by engaging with the people.

But the biggest difference is that there is no difference; the SDLP and Sinn Féin have joined forces on many a Nationalist issue to put pressure on Unionists/British/Irish Government.

And by the way, do you support the Policing Board?

No, it is out of touch with the people; only one member of the public turned up for the last meeting. Also, it has no real power - every decision it makes has to be ratified by the British Government - it defeats the purpose of giving power to local people.

There was a statement made in 1986 in which Gerry Adams said that if Sinn Fein ever gave up the armed struggle they couldn't count him as a member

Sinn Féin never started armed struggle, that's the IRA :P

That's a pretty big diversion

Overlooking you're earlier mistake, you actually expected the IRA to continue the armed struggle forever?

I'll get you the sources later by the way

See that you do

Yes, the lack of socialist leaning does annoy me.

Sinn Féin are hardly right wing but if it's a unrealistic socialist dream you're looking for (sorry Óglach :P ) get involved with the IRSP, ÓglachMcGlinchey will no doubt assist you there.

So you can't find any fault with Sinn Fein at all? That's not belief, that's fanaticism

It was the IRA you referred to, not Sinn Féin - something about a gun to my head - or something like that ah-hah-hah-heh-heh...YOU'VE GOT TO HELP ME PLEASE! THEY FORCE ME TO POST TERRORIST PROPAGANDA!!! PLEASE! SEND FOR THE RUC ! QUICKLY!....I mean yesss, everything's fine, hunky-dory...please...

But it's not just about a United Ireland, it's about now. The SDLP have always wanted a United Ireland, but yet they still lose votes. So it's not the first priority on alot of people's minds.

A United Ireland is inevitable - fact.

Right now the main issues are unemployment, economy, education and sectarianism. But a United Ireland is always there - if the rift of sectarianism is healed and a devolved goverment is set up it means better education increases it means better economy it means better employment which thus leads to less and less sectarianism thus leading closer and closer to a United Ireland.

This is just my personal spin on things and is probably not quite as straightforward but I wanted to put across my own opinion.

Also, The SDLP have not "always wanted a United Ireland" after the civil rights achievements they were satisfied with sitting on their rears not helping poor Catholics (thus generating the need for Sinn Féin.)

What's wrong is he got rich off the struggle, like most other Sinn Fein political bureacrats who do very little yet still get paid bucket loads.

Political bureaucrats - that's just plain dumb.

Also where are the sources! I asked yet you deliver nothing. You are formulating lies that Sinn Féin helped the struggle just to make money of it.

Last time I'll say this - Why did 24.3% of people in the six counties vote foe them? Why are they not fed up and tired of this manipulation? Because it doesn't happen, stop inventing conspiracies.

But the fact of the matter is alot of them still do, while their "leaders" are living in their nice middle-class residence worrying about the next car they're gonna buy.

You see? You don't not believe nationalists should be able to move out of the 'ghettoes' unless they are...wait a second! You really don't have any reasons why Sinn Féin members shouldn't be middle-class, you seem to think only SDLP voters should be in middle class areas.

Are you middle-class? I am yet I have no shame about it. I used to live in Beechmount in a mini-bunker when my dad was in SF, we eventually moved to Coolnasilla which although it isn't Beverly Hills is a nice place. I'd say Coolnasilla is 90% Sinn Féin voters, all middle-class - where's the problem?

Finally,it actually doesn't make a difference whether you are well-off are not, it is your beliefs that set you aside.

I don't want "middle-class republicans"

Then you don't want about half Sinn Féin's voters

Again, middle-class voters who now see extreme similarities between the SDLP and Sinn Fein, which is why they switch

No, they see ingenuity and imagination as well as true republicanism in Sinn Féin while they see a party on its way out in SDLP.

So sitting doin nothing and still getting paid for it isn't doing well?

I honestly want to hit you right now. My dad worked his fucking balls off for Sinn Féin and had to endure Unionist taunts, Loyalist bombs and RUC bullets while doing his represented his constituents so he hardly sat there doing nothing. Oh, and the pay for being a councillour isn't that amazing - you usually need another job as well - my dad worked for the Andytown News and its sister titles to earn his main pay.

You brought it up.

No, Rioters Bloc did.

Why don't you praise the Civil Rights Movement? They done far more in making the plight of catholics known than Sinn Fein did.

I am proud of the Civil Rights Movement and the changes it managed to secure but I am prouder still of Sinn Féin which is Ireland's oldest political party, was side-by-side with the hunger strikers, which built and sustained the Nationalist communities of the Falls and Andersontown and which continues now to provide a democratic and peaceful solution to an ancient and bloody struggle for self-determination.

No slogans at the end this time, just the truth.

Sir Aunty Christ

22nd September 2005, 16:52

Originally posted by Rage Against The [email protected] 21 2005, 11:59 PM
I'd say Coolnasilla is 90% Sinn Féin voters, all middle-class - where's the problem?
I'll highlight the problem by asking two question:

1. How many of those middle-class Sinn Fein voters want a change to the economic system rather than just a change in the political status?

2. Would they be happy living in Bertie's Capitalist Paradise?

Redmau5

22nd September 2005, 19:03

Sinn Féin never started armed struggle, that's the IRA

:blink:

They are one and the same. There's no need to get down to technicalities, you know what I meant. Adams was saying that if Sinn Fein and the IRA ever abandoned "the armalite and ballot box", he would no longer support them. I can't find the exact source, but it was at the 1986 Ard Fheis. Bulrog will back me up on this, as it was him that provided me with the information.

Was it not Danny Morrison, chief Sinn Fein strategist, who made the historical comment about the ballot box in one hand and an armalite in the other? Oh wait, I forgot, we couldn't keep up the armed struggle forever. :rolleyes:

Overlooking you're earlier mistake, you actually expected the IRA to continue the armed struggle forever?

First off, I made no mistake. I did not expect the armed struggle to continue forever, but why did Sinn Fein members make such statements if they had no intention of keeping up the armed struggle?

Sinn Féin are hardly right wing but if it's a unrealistic socialist dream you're looking for (sorry Óglach* ) get involved with the IRSP, ÓglachMcGlinchey will no doubt assist you there.

No one said they were right-wing. But they aren't leftist either. And if you believe that the socialist dream is "unrealistic", then why the fuck are you on a Revolutionary Leftist board? You should be in OI.

It was the IRA you referred to, not Sinn Féin - something about a gun to my head - or something like that ah-hah-hah-heh-heh...YOU'VE GOT TO HELP ME PLEASE! THEY FORCE ME TO POST TERRORIST PROPAGANDA!!! PLEASE! SEND FOR THE RUC ! QUICKLY!....I mean yesss, everything's fine, hunky-dory...please...

Pathetically sad.

A United Ireland is inevitable - fact.

Agreed.

Also, The SDLP have not "always wanted a United Ireland" after the civil rights achievements they were satisfied with sitting on their rears not helping poor Catholics (thus generating the need for Sinn Féin.)

I think you'll find they have always been an anti-partitionist party. But of course not up to the standards of mighty Sinn Fein, saviours of the Catholic community in the North, even though you admitted there is very little difference between the two parties. :rolleyes:

Also where are the sources! I asked yet you deliver nothing. You are formulating lies that Sinn Féin helped the struggle just to make money of it.

Sources for my opinions? Im not saying there aren't alot of good people in Sinn Fein, but their politicians have done well from the struggle. Being a politician is a very well paying job. They are part of an assembly in Stormont, an assembly which is currently defunct, yet they still get paid upwards of £40,000 a year for it. So they aren't actually doing anything, and are still being paid. How is that not doing well?

Last time I'll say this - Why did 24.3% of people in the six counties vote foe them? Why are they not fed up and tired of this manipulation? Because it doesn't happen, stop inventing conspiracies.

Why are the working-class not fed up with exploitation? It takes time. The capitalist could easily say "Exploitation? It doesn't happen. Stop inventing conspiracy theories."

Middle-class voters decided to jump onto the Sinn Fein bandwagon because they are now as moderate as the SDLP. There is also the issue of voters being intimidated into voting by "representatives" of Sinn Fein.

You see? You don't not believe nationalists should be able to move out of the 'ghettoes' unless they are...wait a second! You really don't have any reasons why Sinn Féin members shouldn't be middle-class, you seem to think only SDLP voters should be in middle class areas.

I don't see why anyone should be middle-class, that's why im a Marxist. I don't like the bourgeois, so I am hardly going to support a party whose politicians are bourgeois.

Are you middle-class? I am yet I have no shame about it. I used to live in Beechmount in a mini-bunker when my dad was in SF, we eventually moved to Coolnasilla which although it isn't Beverly Hills is a nice place. I'd say Coolnasilla is 90% Sinn Féin voters, all middle-class - where's the problem?

No, I am not middle-class. I don't see why you are posting on this board if you see nothing wrong with the middle-class. The problem is im a Marxist, so I don't look upon bourgeois parties and bourgeois voters very well.

Finally,it actually doesn't make a difference whether you are well-off are not, it is your beliefs that set you aside.

It sounds like you're saying "It doesn't make a difference if you are rich or poor, as long as you're Irish." That's very nationalistic, and as im a communist, it makes a significant difference to me.

Then you don't want about half Sinn Féin's voters

I don't want a middle-class. I don't want any class.

No, they see ingenuity and imagination as well as true republicanism in Sinn Féin while they see a party on its way out in SDLP.

But as you said, there's very little difference. So it's out with the old, in with the, well, old.

I honestly want to hit you right now. My dad worked his fucking balls off for Sinn Féin and had to endure Unionist taunts, Loyalist bombs and RUC bullets while doing his represented his constituents so he hardly sat there doing nothing. Oh, and the pay for being a councillour isn't that amazing - you usually need another job as well - my dad worked for the Andytown News and its sister titles to earn his main pay.

Both my parents done time for the Provisional IRA, so I don't think I need to go in what they had to endure. My mother even missed her father's funeral because she was in jail at the time and she was refused day-leave.

Ground level Sinn Fein councillors don't bother me, it's the leadership. Im sure your father is a very hard-working man, but just because the councillors are hard-working doesn't mean it runs through out the party, especially at the top.

No, Rioters Bloc did.

My mistake.

I am proud of the Civil Rights Movement and the changes it managed to secure but I am prouder still of Sinn Féin which is Ireland's oldest political party, was side-by-side with the hunger strikers, which built and sustained the Nationalist communities of the Falls and Andersontown and which continues now to provide a democratic and peaceful solution to an ancient and bloody struggle for self-determination.

Built and sustained the Nationalist communities? They were here long before Provisional Sinn Fein and they managed to survive. And many people I know hate Sinn Fein or couldn't give a fuck about them, so it's hardly representative of the whole nationalist community.

Would they be happy living in Bertie's Capitalist Paradise?

I know I wouldn't. A United Ireland which is just as capitalistic as a partitioned Ireland is worthless.

bulrog

22nd September 2005, 19:10

I will vouch for this: "If at any time Sinn Fein decide to disown the armed
struggle they won't have me as a member." - Gerry
Adams, 1986 Ard Fheis

And Danny Morrison did coin the phrase ''The ballot box and the armalite'', that's coming from Sinn Féins cheif strategist of the time.

Page where quote came from (http://rwg.phoblacht.net/mackersarchieve11.html)

The Grey Blur

23rd September 2005, 17:01

They are one and the same

(You're sounding dangerously like a unionist politician there ;) )

The Provisional IRA and Sinn Féin are obviously linked but not so inextricably that they could be considered "one and the same")

There's no need to get down to technicalities, you know what I meant

I do my best on message boards not to be overly pedantic but this wasn't just a 'technicality'.

Adams was saying that if Sinn Fein and the IRA ever abandoned "the armalite and ballot box", he would no longer support them. I can't find the exact source, but it was at the 1986 Ard Fheis. Bulrog will back me up on this, as it was him that provided me with the information.

Wrong Danny Morrison, publicity director for Sinn Féin said at the 1981 Ard Fhéis

"Who here really believes we can win the war through the ballot box? But will anyone here object if, with a ballot box in this hand and an Armalite in this hand, we take power in Ireland?"

While we're quoting Sinn Féin members from over 20 years ago here's one from the 96 ardfhéis by Gerry Adams

"I can understand that some comrades view a change of the abstentionist policy as a betrayal of republican principles. Some of you may feel that a republican organisation making such a change can no longer call itself ‘republican’. If there are delegates here who feel like this I would remind you that another republican organisation has already done what you fear we are going to do tomorrow. I would remind you that the Army Authority of Oglaigh na hEirean, the rank and file volunteers, assembled in the General Army Convention, has democratically made a judgement on this issue and that Oglaigh na hEireann has remained united in its determination to pursue the armed struggle and is united in its confidence in us and in our ability to pursue the political struggle."

"Some republicans believe that politics is the property of the establishment, that so-called ‘constitutionalism’ and politics are the same thing and thus that politics are inherently corrupt and corrupting. The logic of this is that de Valera was okay until he went into Leinster House, or that the opportunism of the Clann na Poblachta leadership only occurred after their entry into the Free State parliament. If we still believe that, then we don’t know our own history and we have little concept of the class nature of this struggle."

but why did Sinn Fein members make such statements if they had no intention of keeping up the armed struggle?

Sinn Féin have supported the IRA's armed struggle but when it became feasible for Sinn Féin to create peace and a democratic government in the Six Counties the IRA willingly laid down their guns. What happened? The Brits screwed us over and the IRA if its own accord took up arms again. Then a true chance for peace arrived and the IRA have just recently given nationalism it's biggest boost in a time - ceasing activities - with this move the IRA removed the unionists major bogey-man scare factor and their main (only) reason for not siiting down with Sinn Féin.

But they aren't leftist either.

I would consider them social-democrat.

And if you believe that the socialist dream is "unrealistic", then why the fuck are you on a Revolutionary Leftist board? You should be in OI.

I said the IRSP's socialist dream in the Six Counties was unrealistic, and I said it in a non-serious manner, it was more of a taunt at Óglach than a statement of fact.

Also, you didn't respond to

get involved with the IRSP, ÓglachMcGlinchey will no doubt assist you there

Agreed.

Well, at least we agree on something.

I'm sick and tired of you're insinuations that Sinn Féin just made money of working for the people they represent, what about the last thirty years, what about all the dead Sinn Féin members, did they make a sort of 'last Sinn Féin politician left standing after this gets the fat government paycheque' deal?

Also, I completely support the Marxist ideal but what about right now? You said it 'takes time' , yes ,the revolution did take time, it took 100 years, maybe in a United Ireland we'll have a socialist 32-counties but now is the time to be realistic and get a basis for a democratic and fair government.

P.S. Who will you vote for in a year's time?

PRC-UTE

24th September 2005, 17:52

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2005, 06:34 PM

Sinn Féin are hardly right wing but if it's a unrealistic socialist dream you're looking for (sorry Óglach* ) get involved with the IRSP, ÓglachMcGlinchey will no doubt assist you there.

No one said they were right-wing. But they aren't leftist either. And if you believe that the socialist dream is "unrealistic", then why the fuck are you on a Revolutionary Leftist board? You should be in OI.
ah, he's just giving me shit.

I think the pov he expresses is, socialism's a good idea, but not something about to happen.

Le People

25th September 2005, 02:33

Originally posted by Rage Against The [email protected] 17 2005, 10:38 AM

OK, the thing about the Irish Famine is not only disrespectful but stupid (making fun of famine victims is as bad as making 'gas chamber' jokes about Jews), the Irish famine victims had to pay crippling amounts of money to unjust Bitish land-lords just to stay on their land, thus they did not have enough money to diversify their crops from the cheapest and best-growing source - na prataí. Also the British government should have done more to help those affected.

Your freind is obviously a retard as are you. First off, you should make a clear distinction between the IRA and Sinn Féin; Sinn Féin are the major republican political party in Ireland who have contested the British Government, unionists and Free State lackeys over equality, sectarianism and a United Ireland. They are of a majority Catholic (listen up all you generalizing pricks) but have had many a protestant in their ranks, as the case of Cllr. Billy Leonard (a former RUC officer who joined Sinn Féin.)

I am sooooo pissed off that people continue this shit about the IRA after my reply in another thread where I broke down the various incarnations of The IRA and could not be fucked writing it all out again.

Sinn Féin are left-wing end-of-story. [/quote]
I apologize for offending your people. See, I'm from the States and when ever I see some one sporting the old Irish pride routine, ussually they end up being right wingers. It's just that they were born and raised in Ameirca usually and I find it silly to take pride in a country that their great great grandparents were from. I'm only joking, and I'ev stopped now. I have emense respect for the Northern Irish and their struggle, and I hope you break from the Queen. Does the IRA have a phrase you know, like "BREAD,LAND AND PEACE"?

bulrog

25th September 2005, 11:44

Tiocfaidh Ár Lá (pron. ''Chucky Our La'')

Our Day Will Come

Sir Aunty Christ

25th September 2005, 12:00

RATM, you haven't answered my questions.

Redmau5

25th September 2005, 15:34

The Provisional IRA and Sinn Féin are obviously linked but not so inextricably that they could be considered "one and the same")

They are two sides of the same coin.

I do my best on message boards not to be overly pedantic but this wasn't just a 'technicality'.

It was.

Wrong Danny Morrison, publicity director for Sinn Féin said at the 1981 Ard Fhéis

I wasn't talking about what Morrison said at the 1986 Ard Fheis, I was talking about what Adams and McGuinness said.

Sinn Féin have supported the IRA's armed struggle but when it became feasible for Sinn Féin to create peace and a democratic government in the Six Counties the IRA willingly laid down their guns. What happened? The Brits screwed us over and the IRA if its own accord took up arms again. Then a true chance for peace arrived and the IRA have just recently given nationalism it's biggest boost in a time - ceasing activities - with this move the IRA removed the unionists major bogey-man scare factor and their main (only) reason for not siiting down with Sinn Féin.

That has absolutely nothing to do with what I said. You said "Did you expect them to keep up the armed struggle forever?". No, I didn't. But why were such statements made at the 1986 Ard Fheis if the Sinn Fein leadership had no intention of keeping up the armed struggle?

I would consider them social-democrat.

Whoop de fucking doo.

I said the IRSP's socialist dream in the Six Counties was unrealistic,

The IRSP don't have a "socialist dream in the Six Counties", they have a socialist dream for the Thirty-two Counties.

Also, you didn't respond to

You responded to very little of what I said about Sinn Fein. You also didn't respond to various other member's posts about the IRA and Sinn Fein.

I'm sick and tired of you're insinuations that Sinn Féin just made money of working for the people they represent, what about the last thirty years, what about all the dead Sinn Féin members, did they make a sort of 'last Sinn Féin politician left standing after this gets the fat government paycheque' deal?

No, im not talking about the Sinn Fein of the last thirty years. I used to support Sinn Fein, but the Sinn Fein of recent times really left me disillusioned. The fact that they do very little yet still get quite a substantial salary really annoys the hell out of me. And it's the same with some of the corrupt members of the Provisional IRA, who have their holiday homes and their massive houses, while other members have very little. So yes, they do make money out of the struggle. It's an undeniable fact. Yet there are so many decent members of the IRA and Sinn Fein who have very little. So how do you explain that?

P.S. Who will you vote for in a year's time?

No one. I don't believe in parliamentary politics.

bulrog

26th September 2005, 21:49

Originally posted by Rage Against The [email protected] 23 2005, 04:32 PM
I would consider them social-democrat.

Sounds dangerously close to ''The Social Democratic and Labour Party''.

bulrog

26th September 2005, 21:54

Originally posted by Rage Against The [email protected] 21 2005, 10:59 PM
I used to live in Beechmount in a mini-bunker when my dad was in SF
And your da was a councillor for 8 years? Think I realise who you're da is.

ComradeOm

27th September 2005, 13:22

Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2005, 03:05 PM
But why were such statements made at the 1986 Ard Fheis if the Sinn Fein leadership had no intention of keeping up the armed struggle?
The reason for that being that while Seinn Fein may have socialist politics, the IRA rank and file certainly do not. In 1986 Adams and co had not consolidated their hold on the IRA and any open move towards peace would have seen them run out of town. Adams has operated by gradually introducing measures that have edged the armed wing towards peace, one inch at a time. In effect Adams has achieved what the Officials leadership could not by lying to the membership for over a decade. When the split did come it was a pale shadow of the one that first established the Provos.

The Grey Blur

27th September 2005, 20:51

Originally posted by bulrog+Sep 26 2005, 09:25 PM--> (bulrog @ Sep 26 2005, 09:25 PM)
Rage Against The [email protected] 21 2005, 10:59 PM
I used to live in Beechmount in a mini-bunker when my dad was in SF
And your da was a councillor for 8 years? Think I realise who you're da is. [/b]
Lol, that sounds so creepy. PM me, who you think. (BTW it's not Gerry Adams or one of the super-stars) :P

PrideoftheProletariat

11th October 2005, 19:41

All the IRA simply is is a different capitalist political force that is trying to take control of Ireland. Their revolutionary movement would do nothing to help the progress of socialism. Their fight is simply, as has been said earlier a nationalistic/religious movement. I happen to have many family members in Northern Ireland. A lot of them are proud members of the UDR, the Ulster Defence Regiment; basically Northern Ireland response to the IRA. They have to deal with the terrorism tactics of the IRA. My family members have had bomsbs go off at their homes on multiple occasions by the IRA. My family has to put up with the crap these Irish capitalist terrorists do. And in fact the vast majority of people in Ireland really don't care if they join up with the rest of Ireland. The vast majority just want things to stay the way they are. Ireland's policies are far more authoritative and religion-influenced than that of the UK's.

BOZG

11th October 2005, 20:10

Originally posted by Rage Against The [email protected] 17 2005, 02:48 PM
Sinn Féin are left-wing end-of-story.
A left-wing organisation that implemented and would still implement a whole variety of neo-liberal, right-wing cuts and attacks on the working class? You're deluded.

The IRA didn't kill McCartney, the men happened to be in the IRA but they didn't act on the IRA's behalf, they acted on their own accord.

I always find these arguments fascinating. As soon as there is any sort of media attack on the Republican paramilitaries over a death linked to them, damage limitation is automatically applied. Deny all knowledge and links to the death. That's a fair enough argument in certain circumstances but happens far too often with the paramilitaries. Another one is that when IRA weapons are used in murders that are "sanctioned" by the IRA, just claim they were given to these people for different purposes. Honestly, either those arguments or bullshit, or the paramilitaries need to start vetting their members far more rigorously because there's apparently a whole swath of vicious psychopaths among their ranks.

Not once did I see a socialist party candidate in Belfast, not even the posters.

We only stood in South and East Belfast in two wards so it would be quite easy to not see our posters but trust me, they were up. I spent enough fucking time doing them. :)

The Workers Party actually got more votes than the Socialist Party (CWI) in the last election.

More votes doesn't mean a better programme.

The reason there is a lack of a Socialist alternative in the six counties and in Ireland as a whole is because of partition and the fact that the struggle for National Liberation is not yet complete.

Interesting, considering that "National Liberation" is unacheivable under capitalism and can only be won on the basis of a socialist alternative and working class unity. "National liberation" under capitalism would only occur on the forced entry of the Protestant working class into a united capitalist Ireland and would absolutely be physically resisted by them. There are honest, genuined fears among Protestant workers about such a state and no capitalist system can alleviate those fears. Forced entry would more than likely result in an armed resistance by the Protestant community, which the Irish state would find necessary to supress and oppress, much in the same manner that the British state did, realising the fears of the Protestant community.

Redmau5

11th October 2005, 20:35

All the IRA simply is is a different capitalist political force that is trying to take control of Ireland.

I wouldn't exactly call them capitalist.

Their fight is simply, as has been said earlier a nationalistic/religious movement.

Nationalistic? Yes, in the sense that they want their homeland to be re-united. As do I. Nationalistic in a right-wing sense? Certainly not.

As for religion? :lol:. The struggle here has very little to do with religion. The IRA never had any religiously-motivated objectives.

I happen to have many family members in Northern Ireland. A lot of them are proud members of the UDR, the Ulster Defence Regiment; basically Northern Ireland response to the IRA.

The Ulster Defence Regiment were scum. Many of its soldiers were also members of Loyalist paramilitaries, and the organisation often colluded with Loyalist paramiltaries. 192 UDR soldiers were killed by the IRA during the troubles. In my opinion they couldn't have killed enough of the bastards.

From Wikipedia:

Formed in 1970, it was designed to replace the controversial B-Specials of Northern Ireland. Throughout its history the UDR was dogged by accusations of collusion with loyalist paramilitaries, many of whose members were also serving UDR soldiers, and had a reputation for brutality and maltreatment of civilians. Brigadier David Millar, the former commandant of the Fifth Battalion (County Londonderry), once admitted that if he expelled any of his soldiers for belonging to an illegal loyalist paramilitary group, he would be left without a regiment.

Two UDR soldiers, who were also members of the Ulster Volunteer Force, were convicted of the 1975 murder of three members of the Miami Showband in a Ulster Volunteer Force attack. In 1989, 28 UDR soldiers were arrested by the Royal Ulster Constabulary as part of the Stevens Inquiry into security force collusion with paramilitaries. Six of those arrested were later awarded damages over their arrests. In 1999 David Jordan, a former UDR soldier, broke down in a bar and admitted to being part of a patrol that killed nationalist councillor Patsy Kelly in 1974. Jordan also implicated former Democratic Unionist Party Northern Ireland Assembly member Oliver Gibson in the murder.

Initially, seven battalions were raised, immediately making it the largest regiment in the British Army. Within two years, a further four battalions were added, taking the total to eleven. To begin with, the regiment consisted entirely of part-time volunteers, before a full time cadre was added in 1976. At first, the regiment was 82 per cent Protestant and 18 per cent Catholic, but this ratio became 99:1 as the regiment began to emulate its predecessor organisation. The full-time element of the regiment eventually expanded to encompass half the total personnel. The UDR was also the first regiment in the British Army to fully integrate women into its structure, when the so-called Greenfinches took over clerical and signals duties, which allowed male members of the regiment to return to patrol duties. One Greenfinch, Eva Martin, was killed during the Troubles.

They have to deal with the terrorism tactics of the IRA.

But they didn't deal with the terrorist tactics of the UVF/UDA/UFF/LVF etc., because they worked with them.

My family members have had bomsbs go off at their homes on multiple occasions by the IRA.

And?

My family has to put up with the crap these Irish capitalist terrorists do

What about the crap the Catholic population had to pur up with before they decided to fight back? It was OK for the Loyalists and the police to murder and injure Catholics, but when they fight back you start squealing? You have a fucking cheek to call anyone terrorists and at the same time defend the conservative, reactionary UDR, which was only there to keep the status quo.

And in fact the vast majority of people in Ireland really don't care if they join up with the rest of Ireland.

What? Where did you get this bullshit from?

The vast majority just want things to stay the way they are

As above.

Ireland's policies are far more authoritative and religion-influenced than that of the UK's.

Religiously-influenced? Maybe. Authoritative? No.

bcbm

11th October 2005, 20:43

I happen to have many family members in Northern Ireland. A lot of them are proud members of the UDR, the Ulster Defence Regiment; basically Northern Ireland response to the IRA. They have to deal with the terrorism tactics of the IRA.

Good lord... you need a history lesson badly. Do you have any idea why the IRA, or more specifically, the Provos took up arms in the late 60's? Do you have any idea what the fuck was going on in Northern Ireland then?

BOZG

11th October 2005, 20:44

Makaveli,
He's right to an extent. In the South, while generally the mood is for unification, it's an armchair attitude. There's no mood to be active or militant and unification. It's a nice idea effectively but it doesn't mean much if it doesn't happen. This attitude is also an unthinking one, where nobody really analyses the actual effects that unification would have, economically or socially.

PRC-UTE

11th October 2005, 21:12

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2005, 07:22 PM
All the IRA simply is is a different capitalist political force that is trying to take control of Ireland. Their revolutionary movement would do nothing to help the progress of socialism. Their fight is simply, as has been said earlier a nationalistic/religious movement. I happen to have many family members in Northern Ireland. A lot of them are proud members of the UDR, the Ulster Defence Regiment; basically Northern Ireland response to the IRA. They have to deal with the terrorism tactics of the IRA. My family members have had bomsbs go off at their homes on multiple occasions by the IRA. My family has to put up with the crap these Irish capitalist terrorists do. And in fact the vast majority of people in Ireland really don't care if they join up with the rest of Ireland. The vast majority just want things to stay the way they are. Ireland's policies are far more authoritative and religion-influenced than that of the UK's.
The UDR was used to take the place of the B Specials, a 100% Protestant militia. It was not a response to the IRA as it was formed before the Provisionals came into being. You can read this on their own site: UDR (http://www.regiments.org/regiments/uk/inf/970udr.htm). The Official IRA had already moved to a reformist left centre platform and sold the bulk of its weapons.

There's no justiifcaiton for the UDR, other than for continuing to keep Catholics in their place. Your sectarian post shows that.

PRC-UTE

11th October 2005, 21:15

Originally posted by black banner black [email protected] 11 2005, 08:24 PM

I happen to have many family members in Northern Ireland. A lot of them are proud members of the UDR, the Ulster Defence Regiment; basically Northern Ireland response to the IRA. They have to deal with the terrorism tactics of the IRA.

Good lord... you need a history lesson badly. Do you have any idea why the IRA, or more specifically, the Provos took up arms in the late 60's? Do you have any idea what the fuck was going on in Northern Ireland then?
:lol:

Aye, he doesn't seem to know about internment without trial, bloody sunday, falls road curfew, the burning of bombay street . . .

bulrog

12th October 2005, 17:15

He's a comlplete gobshite, been listening to too much UDR propaganda from them bastard relatives of his, as has been said, he's a fucking cheek to call anyone a terrorist when he glorifies the UDR.

My family members have had bomsbs go off at their homes on multiple occasions by the IRA. My family has to put up with the crap these Irish capitalist terrorists do.

Any casualties? I sincerely hope there was.

slim

13th October 2005, 18:46

Cmon,

Through all the terrors who really wants more casualties?

Enough innocent blood has been spilt for the English overlords. All we're doing is dividing ourselves and the bickering is weakening us and putting them in a stronger position. Once the English are gone then maybe politics can be resolved without guns or violence. Genocide is not an option. We are one people. The Irish.

The Grey Blur

13th October 2005, 19:52

Man, I was gonna respond to that idiot who supported the UDR and big Mak just came in with the killer :lol:

But to that guy (this applies to others as well) - I'm sure you support the revolutionary groups in Columbia, Peru, Nepal etc. so what is your problem with the IRA? It is simply because you do not believe in revolution unless it adheres to your romantic ideals - I'm sure you adore Che (who fucked up in Bolivia and got killed) but the IRA? A faceless organization (smart move, you don't publicize who you are), well-drilled (the British Army were quite legendarily scared of Provos gunmen), well-disciplined ( ill-discipline was dealt with execution - just like Che), was based in and run by the working-class (you make it seem as if they were capatalistic, the truth is they were simply pro-republican, they could care less about political ideology when Catholics were being murdered) and had a clear agenda of anti-Britain.

If revolution is what you believe in you should support it, not blindly, but you should make sure as a "revolutionary" you support any uprising or retaliation of opressed people.

Everyone supports the ANC and their armed-wing battling apartheid, how can you support that then turn around and call the IRA terrorists?

The Grey Blur

13th October 2005, 20:08

You know very well who Provisional Sinn Fein
You mean Sinn Féin ? No need to refer to them as provisional, after all no one's likely to confuse them with "republican" Sinn Féin(an tiny organization operating out of Dublin).

people who use the name of the CIRA as a cover are not actualy members
Oh, come on, at the moment there are two grannies and a gluesniffer out on the Falls Road in the middle of traffic demanding political prisoner status for "CIRA" members, every single one of them brought in on petty charges - car-crime, larceny, etc.

It was the CIRA who attacked the RUC on the 12th
Whoa, you threw a couple of rocks at orangemen over a ten-foot high barrier...I'm sure the Brits are quaking in their boots

the Provos who condemned their actions.
"The Provos" did not condemn the CIRA's brave actions...they condemned the Orangemen's sectarianism and the parades commisions insane ruling.

So, final point - is the CIRA's campaign of intimidation, whoops, I mean determination going to get past the hastily-scrawled-graffiti-while-drunk stage? Or shall we just have to wait patiently until you self-implode?

bulrog

13th October 2005, 20:14

Hey hey RATM lay off them, after all your ''Suppouse to be Irish'', remember? :lol:

(Suppourt Something!) :lol:

For those of you with no idea what i'm talkin about, it was graffiti on Beechmount avenue written by the ''Conituity IRA'', they need to employ some literate graffiti artists.

The Grey Blur

13th October 2005, 20:28

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2005, 07:55 PM
Hey hey RATM lay off them, after all your ''Suppouse to be Irish'', remember? :lol:

(Suppourt Something!) :lol:

For those of you with no idea what i'm talkin about, it was graffiti on Beechmount avenue written by the ''Conituity IRA'', they need to employ some literate graffiti artists.
Best Belfast graffiti ever - "THE McCARTNEYS BORE ME " - the voice of the people!

bulrog

13th October 2005, 20:40

New peice on the Grovenor Road - IRA SELLOUTS - SUCMBAGS!

PRC-UTE

13th October 2005, 21:09

The best is "FREE CHAIRMAN GARTLAND"

:lol:

bulrog

13th October 2005, 21:10

Mr Super Dollar and his ''revolutionary conspiracy against capitalism'', that just so happened to make him a very rich man.

The Grey Blur

15th October 2005, 15:35

A left-wing organisation that implemented and would still implement a whole variety of neo-liberal, right-wing cuts and attacks on the working class? You're deluded.
No, a left-wing organization that would help support the working-class communities that they represent as well as combat the political fascism of parties like the DUP.

I always find these arguments fascinating.
Pretty morbid

As soon as there is any sort of media attack on the Republican paramilitaries over a death linked to them
The McCartney murder is the first time since the cease-fire that the IRA have been accused of a death.

Deny all knowledge and links to the death. That's a fair enough argument in certain circumstances but happens far too often with the paramilitaries. Another one is that when IRA weapons are used in murders that are "sanctioned" by the IRA, just claim they were given to these people for different purposes. Honestly, either those arguments or bullshit, or the paramilitaries need to start vetting their members far more rigorously because there's apparently a whole swath of vicious psychopaths among their ranks.

The murderers weren't under Provo direction, they were drunks in a bar that got in an arguement that escalated into a brawl (something that happens in every city in Britain & Ireland at closing time), eventually ending with the death of Robert McCartney. It is tragic but the wrong thing to do is point the finger of blame at the IRA, the men were immediately expelled, an apology was issued, Gerry Adams called for the men and the community to cooperate with the PSNI, they were not protected in any way by the IRA - yet it took the PSNI two weeks to arrest the men and take a statement from a witness - there was no cover-up or "damage limatation." Not to mention the fact that Loyalist paramilitaries have killed more than thirty men from protestant communities in worse circumstances since 1994; where is the pressure on the UVF or the DUP to take responsiblity for the murder of Raymond McCord? (a young man killed in the same manner as Robert McCartney in 1997)

We only stood in South and East Belfast in two wards

What party are you talking about?

The reason there is a lack of a Socialist alternative in the six counties and in Ireland as a whole is because of partition and the fact that the struggle for National Liberation is not yet complete.
This is an excellent point and I agree with it, a United Ireland must be a priority for socialists in Ireland.

Forced entry would more than likely result in an armed resistance by the Protestant community, which the Irish state would find necessary to supress and oppress, much in the same manner that the British state did, realising the fears of the Protestant community

Why would protestants resist? You only have to look at the way protestants behave in the South (the consider themselves Irish, they sing the national anthem, they partake in Irish culture) to see there is no ill-feeling to protestants amongst Irish people, I mean Ireland has gone from being the "papist-state" that Ian Paisley riled against to a largely religiously apathetic country.
I think some Unionists would be reluctant to engage in a United Ireland, they are so used to having everything their on way but they will have to accept that the majority of people in Ireland want unity.
If you meant loyalist paramilitaries -you see the loyalists don't actually care all that much about United Ireland, I mean they're opposed through their nature but it isn't some pricipled battle against Nationalism or anything like that - the reason the UVF,LVF and all those other little scumbags oppose a United Ireland is because they know a proper government would shut down their drug, robbery and extortion operations. The British Government ignores all that stuff, let's it slide because of the informers they have, they don't want to upset the apple-cart by actually shutting them down, but there would be no such hesitations from a United Irish government.