Freeganism

[Palmares]

I've often thought about different ways of living life more inline with my political beliefs (living a moral life as it were), but have found both vegetarianism and vegan both restricting, and even perhaps too extreme (I believe in the possibility of having animals on a small farm that I take good care of and perhaps could one day eat).

Then myself and some friends got more into stealing and dumpster diving food.

Then we came across freeganism.


Freeganism is the practice of consuming food that has been thrown away by someone else (e.g. supermarkets) in order to minimize the destructive impact consumption has on the environment.

Acting in this way, a Freegan has little responsibility for the material, energy and resources used in the production process of the goods he consumes since the goods have already exited the production-consumption cycle of money exchanged for goods.

In most developed countries, the quality demands and hygiene standards of consumers are so high that many foods stay perfectly edible for long periods of time after their expiry or "best before" dates. Naturally, the best seasons for freeganism pertaining to food goods are autumn and spring, when waste bins remain at refrigerator temperatures.

Freeganism in itself does not mean a person is following a certain kind of dietary behavior, though it is common that freegans practice vegetarianism or veganism.

Many people practicing this diet have been forced into it simply by lacking the income necessary to purchase food normally, rather than making a conscious decision to sustain themselves by scavenging when other choices are available.

Freeganism is also used to describe people who are vegan, 'unless it's free.' Unlike the above, these people do not necessarily eat food that was already thrown away, but rather they eat non-vegan food that is offered to them, or that would otherwise be thrown away. However, they may often have the same motives, or they may simply be acquiescing to their friends, relatives, or coworkers attempts to feed them non-vegan food.

Though I do not yet fully live by this, I am attempting some sort of transition to it, and hence to live a much more authentic existence.

Opinions?

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

You want my honest opinion?

Seems like a worthless load of bullshit to me.

[Clarksist]

I think freeganism is very admirable. As long as you aren't stealing from the proletariat, I see absolutely nothing wrong with it.

Freegan is even more humane to animals that veganism, as the dead animal will just goto waste if it is thrown away.

[Organic Revolution]

i live freegan to an extent... but, i wont eat anything with animal products.

[bed_of_nails]

I will consume anything that moves (sometimes while it is still moving. Slightly primitive), but I am trying to avoid places that purchase supplies from places that treat animals the worst.

It is an honorable idea, and I would enjoy eating only meats that had been thrown out if I could stomach the thought of eating out of a dumpster. If you have a friend on the inside this is the greatest thing ever though.

[Clarksist]

i live freegan to an extent... but, i wont eat anything with animal products.


Yeah, I'm a vegetarian (as I am still living at with parents) and I can afford not to live freegan style.

But when I see meat about to be thrown away, I try to save it for my carnivore friends. I don't want an animal to die for absolutely nothing.

[Eastside Revolt]

Call me a pussy but I ain't giong dumpster diving anytime soon. :P

I do however eat lots of free food, and lots of food that most people would throw away. However I do commit the horrible drime of eating meat from the supermarket.

[Clarksist]

Call me a pussy but I ain't giong dumpster diving anytime soon.


That's what I thought. You need to go to a fresh and clean dumpster, and retrieve right as people have dumped things. The back of pizza places is a mountain of free food.

Usually with fruit (I've found) you just need to wash them off a little and they are absolutely fine. If you still think its unclean, cook them and that should kill anything bad in it.

Dumpster diving is one of those things that if you do it once, it suddenly seems a-okay. Its amazing how much I can take now after eating a loaf of bread in a supermarket's dumpster. There was a small spot of mold. Take thate off, and its fine.

BTW: 1,000 post!!! W00T!!!

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

I thought supermarkets locked up their bins?

[Organic Revolution]

the ones around me used to, until i cut the locks every night.

[The Feral Underclass]

I know lots of freegans. I suppose I am to an extent, although I also buy food...Like chips.

[rahul]

..........interesting!
i never came accross an ism like this in india....

here, if you tell poeple that "i'd follow this process" they are certainly going to call you a mad man(generally beggars do that here{..if you feel bad...sorry}).
.....i personally somehow liked this freeganism!

[Donnie]

I may do dumpster diving if it's needed i.e. no cash but I certainly wouldn't limit my diving to just vegan food. I'm a meat eater you see; I love fish and chips (It's my new eating phase; eat fish and chips all the time) ;P

[Hate Is Art]

Bin Diving, and the left-wing reaches new levels of class and dignity :rolleyes:

[Monty Cantsin]

i've done it, it's kind of a slow process were you go further and further.

[Black Dagger]

Originally posted by Digital [email protected] 17 2005, 11:19 PM
Bin Diving, and the left-wing reaches new levels of class and dignity :rolleyes:
Leftists care about being 'classy' and 'dignified'? :blink:

[Raisa]

yall are nasty. why dont you just go eat shit in the supermarket and then leave?

aint nothing revolutionary about eating shit.

Be gangsta, just grab your balls, slide into the store, eat a banana, eat some grapes, get a sandwich made, eat it and toss the wrapper ,grab some candy and eat it while you walk out the store.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

yall are nasty. why dont you just go eat shit in the supermarket and then leave?

aint nothing revolutionary about eating shit.

It is a fact that supermarkets and eateries throw away large amounts of perfectly edible food.


Bin Diving, and the left-wing reaches new levels of class and dignity :rolleyes:

You see this one of the effects of class society - those who get by on less are looked down upon for no good reason.

[Palmares]

Originally posted by CompaneroDeLibertad+Sep 16 2005, 01:10 PM--> (CompaneroDeLibertad @ Sep 16 2005, 01:10 PM) You want my honest opinion?

Seems like a worthless load of bullshit to me. [/b]
Why?


Originally posted by NoXion+--> (NoXion)I thought supermarkets locked up their bins?[/b]

Usually, and also most bins are. However, they are at least some bins unlocked (though the lokced bins are usually locked for a reason - good stuff inside), not to mention that they are techniques to open locked bins, such as bolt cutting and unhinging the bin.


Originally posted by Donnie
I may do dumpster diving if it's needed i.e. no cash but I certainly wouldn't limit my diving to just vegan food.

It's not really a matter of trying to eat according to a vagen ethic or aything, but rather that is all the food you can really eat from dumpsters. Meat from dumpsters are almost guaranteed not to be eatible by the time you come across it in the bin. However, it is possible to have eatible cheese and milk etc. So vegetarianism is also applicable.

Thinking about it, it is possible to also get stuff like tuna that won't go off so fast.


Monty [email protected]
i've done it, it's kind of a slow process were you go further and further.

You approached it fairly conservatively (we did it togther by the way), so you really didn't get a great grasp for it. If you find a good supply of stuff, it isn't that slow at all.


Raisa
yall are nasty. why dont you just go eat shit in the supermarket and then leave?

aint nothing revolutionary about eating shit.

Be gangsta, just grab your balls, slide into the store, eat a banana, eat some grapes, get a sandwich made, eat it and toss the wrapper ,grab some candy and eat it while you walk out the store.

Huh?

Anyway, essentially what you are pointing to is stealing. Indeed, that is a similar way of life, infact it is a tactic of freeganism. However, it is used less due to the fact that one, it is much harder to do, especially due to security, and the amount of actual food you could get.

Also, food from a store, that is still in the store, hasn't actually been wasted yet. And by virtue, if you take a product from there, you are affecting (in however small a way) the demand for the product, and thus not reducing waste at all (a fundamental element to freeganism).

[FatFreeMilk]

Though I do not yet fully live by this, I am attempting some sort of transition to it, and hence to live a much more authentic existence.
WTF? How so?


And by virtue, if you take a product from there, you are affecting (in however small a way) the demand for the product, and thus not reducing waste at all (a fundamental element to freeganism). Ahem, there is always going to be a demand for food.

This is the most logical thing to do if you were living in the street but that's about it. To do it out of choice is disgusting.

[Palmares]

Though I do not yet fully live by this, I am attempting some sort of transition to it, and hence to live a much more authentic existence.
WTF? How so?

By authentic, I am referring to the existential concept of living true to one self, like how Marx saw little different in theory and practice.



And by virtue, if you take a product from there, you are affecting (in however small a way) the demand for the product, and thus not reducing waste at all (a fundamental element to freeganism). Ahem, there is always going to be a demand for food.

This is the most logical thing to do if you were living in the street but that's about it. To do it out of choice is disgusting.

Of course there is always going to be a demand for food... :rolleyes:

What I am referring to is that by being freegan, you are affecting the demand less. It may well be the case that this affect is minute, but the nature of what some call "puritan" (sp?) practices is that they are at heart ethical/moral stances, as they are not infact inherently revolutionary.

And since this is a practice out of morality, it is hence not as you said, to be the most logical thing for people living on the street to do. They would do it out of desperation, freegans do it out of the morality of not contributing to the waste of the capitalist system. Do you see the different?

Did anyone here even read what freeganism is actually about? <_<

[h&s]

The way a REAL revolutionary lives
What the fuck is revolutionary about eating other people&#39;s left-overs? What are you changing? How does this benefit anyone else but you and your wallet?
Do something really revolutionary, and get involved in society.

[voyagetoinfinity]

hahah dumpster diving is awesome, our local bagel store would throw away hundreds of bagels every nite and we&#39;d get them. they were sanitary (in a plastic bag) and tasted great. especially since they were free.

[Palmares]

Originally posted by h&[email protected] 21 2005, 07:43 PM

The way a REAL revolutionary lives
What the fuck is revolutionary about eating other people&#39;s left-overs? What are you changing? How does this benefit anyone else but you and your wallet?
Do something really revolutionary, and get involved in society.
The title was a joke. Guess you didn&#39;t get it.

Read the rest of the thread before you jump to conclusions though, as I actually mentioned already that this is not a revolutionary (or at least inherently revolutionary) practice, but rather an ethical/moral one.

Doing something even more revolutionary would be to one, be involved in society, and two, have your lifestyle in line with what would accord to a truly authentic anti-capitalist existence.

[h&s]

I know the title was a joke, but you were implying it, and you are now and I have read all of the thread.
This is not a &#39;true&#39; anti-capitalist lifestyle. The only worthy anti-capitalist lifestyle is that of the working class, that way we get to change society instead of complaining about it and trying to bypass it.
Trying to distance yourself from capitalism is pointless, and this is just that.

[Palmares]

So what if I imply it? That hardly changes my point.

Now, in order for you to give me the impression that what you call the working class lifestyle is infact the only "worthy" anti-capitalist lifestyle, you would best describe what that actually is.

You see, in the society we currently live in, what it would mean to live as a working class person really doesn&#39;t hold alot of meaning these days (in my opinion).

It really leads one to think how much capitalist bourgeois culture really has injected itself into our lives, whether we realise it or not. And then again, how much then marks one as a virtual "intellectual leftist" etc?

Are you perhaps referring to something like when Orwell left his bourgeois lifestyle and experienced what the working class of his time experienced?

But addressing your point about a freegan-type existence being pointless, I really have to ask: why? Because it doesn&#39;t change anything? How much it really does change it contentious indeed, but as i have said many times, that really isn&#39;t what it is about.

So when it comes down to it, most arguements against such practices are based outside of what it&#39;s basic premise is, and hence isn&#39;t a valid criticism.

Since this view relies on ethics, it point to it as "pointless" would pertain to it being disproved ethically.

[Regicidal Insomniac]

Dumpster-diving is great. I don&#39;t need to in order to survive, but if I&#39;m ever really low on cash or need to cook for alot of people I&#39;ll gladly cook up &#39;garbage&#39;. Also, it&#39;s not just about the food: you wouldn&#39;t believe the stuff you can find in dumpsters. I&#39;ve found heaps of working calculators in the Radio Shack dumpster; art supplies from craft store dumpsters; books and magazines from behind bookshops. The list goes on: briefcases, electric blankets, office furniture, neon signs, CDs, cameras, musical instruments, sports equipments - you can find most anything in a dumpster if you look in the right places&#33;

[h&s]

Now, in order for you to give me the impression that what you call the working class lifestyle is infact the only "worthy" anti-capitalist lifestyle, you would best describe what that actually is.
Just a normal working lifestyle. I see trying to work outside that will never help the class break out from capitalism.


You see, in the society we currently live in, what it would mean to live as a working class person really doesn&#39;t hold alot of meaning these days (in my opinion).
It does where I live.
The vast majority of Western country&#39;s populations are working class. If you can&#39;t see that you need to rethink you class outlook.


It really leads one to think how much capitalist bourgeois culture really has injected itself into our lives, whether we realise it or not
So what? That doesn&#39;t change anything.


Are you perhaps referring to something like when Orwell left his bourgeois lifestyle and experienced what the working class of his time experienced?
No. I&#39;d have to be borgeios for that. I just aim for my lifestyle to stay generally at what it is now.


But addressing your point about a freegan-type existence being pointless, I really have to ask: why? Because it doesn&#39;t change anything? How much it really does change it contentious indeed, but as i have said many times, that really isn&#39;t what it is about.

Since this view relies on ethics, it point to it as "pointless" would pertain to it being disproved ethically.
OK. I was considering the implied political implications of this.
I don&#39;t mean to offend you - you can have any ethical lifestyle you want.
I just think that politically this is a step backwards if anything.

[Clarksist]

What the fuck is revolutionary about eating other people&#39;s left-overs? What are you changing? How does this benefit anyone else but you and your wallet?


You are affecting more than your own wallet, as you are living without purchasing food from major corporations.

[h&s]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2005, 08:32 PM

What the fuck is revolutionary about eating other people&#39;s left-overs? What are you changing? How does this benefit anyone else but you and your wallet?


You are affecting more than your own wallet, as you are living without purchasing food from major corporations.
So what? Does that benefit anyone? If anything it worsens the conditions of the companie&#39;s workers due to lost profits.
Anyway, thats wrong. Someone has to buy the food before you, so only one person benefits.

[Raisa]

Im inspired to look in the dumpster now if they really do got cool shit in there, cause I hardly got any money any damn way, but shit-
i dont think it is a bourgeois infection of my lifestyle to want fresh food.

[Jimmie Higgins]

I don&#39;t see any real harm to freeganism if that&#39;s what you want to do, but politically, it&#39;s bunk. I mean the ruling class could care less if you&#39;re a freegan, it dosn&#39;t challenge their rule at all. People have been freegans, not by choice, for as long as there have been urban centers; it&#39;s called being homeless and, again, that dosn&#39;t challenge the rulers of society.

I&#39;m glad that people recognize that there has to be something done about how crazily our society is run and want to do something about it, but freeganism is a dead end in all ends other than "feeling moral" for the induvidual freegan.

It&#39;s like when I was younger and punks I knew felt like the only moral way to live was to be a squatter and not contribute anything to the corrupt system. It&#39;s not that different from people in the 60s generation "droping-out" and living on a commune and thereby, bypassing the capitalism (for themselves) rather than confronting and fighting it head-on.

[The Feral Underclass]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2005, 04:10 AM
You want my honest opinion?

Seems like a worthless load of bullshit to me.
You think the recycling of food so it isn’t wasted is a "worthless load of bullshit"? Considering the millions of people dying of starvation, it seems hypocritical for someone who wants to end the suffering of human beings can be so contemptable of something like this.

[The Feral Underclass]

Originally posted by h&[email protected] 21 2005, 10:43 AM

The way a REAL revolutionary lives
What the fuck is revolutionary about eating other people&#39;s left-overs? What are you changing? How does this benefit anyone else but you and your wallet?
Do something really revolutionary, and get involved in society.
It isn&#39;t about eating people’s leftovers or mouldy food out of a bin. It&#39;s about re-using perfectly edible food that supermarkets throw out because they&#39;re one day over its sell by date, instead of it being wasted.

We live in a consumer society where we produce more than we need to satisfy a whim. They produce millions of sandwiches of different flavours so we can have a choice, and when people don&#39;t eat them, they throw them away, regardless of their quality.

We have this idea that if food is a day over then it can’t be eaten, but this is just another spectacle of consumer society, where we program ourselves to believe a conditon imposed on us. Instead of actually being rational about it we allow corporations to tell us what quality is. Why? Because they can profit from it.

Food is inedible when it’s rotten, not because a food company has stamped a date on it. In a world where people starve, wasting food is fundamentally wrong.

People who get off their arses, go and get into a food skip and take out the food that is perfectly fine and eating it, instead of buying food for a consumer driven corporation, who profits from us, is far more preferable to someone who claims to be opposed to such things.

[Gnosis]

Freeganism is good.

[h&s]

TAT:
Yeah, I get your point, and it is a good one.
I just don&#39;t see what relevance freeganism has to everyday people.
I think that there are better ways to spend your time than promoting this.


People who get off their arses, go and get into a food skip and take out the food that is perfectly fine and eating it, instead of buying food for a consumer driven corporation, who profits from us, is far more preferable to someone who claims to be opposed to such things.
Why?
The point is to change these things, not trying to be morally superior and bypassing them.

[tantric]

we, ACTUALLY....

some of the ecology grad students i know (of) take this to a new extreme: they eat road kill.

no joke. they drive a highway at sunset and spray tag all the &#39;kill, then come back at dawn. no tag = fresh meat.

i am NOT kidding. i am SO glad i&#39;m vegetarian.

now, i support this. it&#39;s not as good as stealing your food from walmart™, but whatever works. fighting capitalism is not about running your mouth. it&#39;s about finding new ways to live, and about practicing what you preach.

for my part, when i was the night cashier at kroger, i gave away the food i was supposed to throw away, mostly to people on WIC and foodstamps. every night, i was tasked with taking ~15 rotisserie chickens (EWWWW&#33;) and trashing them. why? well, because if you give them away, people won&#39;t be hungry, and not-hungry people buy fewer groceries.

to waste food in the name of profit in a world where people starve by the millions is evil, pure and simple. if you fight that, you are fighting the good fight. rock on.

[h&s]

You never seen the roadkill cookbook? Apparently it was a bestsellar&#33; :D


now, i support this. it&#39;s not as good as stealing your food from walmart™, but whatever works. fighting capitalism is not about running your mouth. it&#39;s about finding new ways to live, and about practicing what you preach.

1. Stealing food from Walmart only disadvantages the workers, no-one else. If bosses see their profits going down, they&#39;ll just pay the workers less, as all profit is wages not payed to workers. If a Walmart had a bad theft problem, the workers would be put under so much pressure to stop it.
2. Fighting capitalism is not about finding new ways to live; thats called being a hippy. Fighting capitalism is aout overthrowing capitalism and its ruling class.

[tantric]

apparently you have never worked at walmart. do you really think the workers get paid any more than the minimum? why would they? if walmart paid any less, they could not keep workers. or, more to the point, the less they pay, the more their workers steal. i don&#39;t see you unionizing anything.

violent revolution is insane. "overthrow capitalism", you and what army? vs. the usgov. right. you have hand guns, they have neutron bombs. thanks to technology, the state now has an overwhelming and unbeatable advantage. find another way.

this is off topic, unless this moderator is more flexible than the last, it will be nixed. pun intended ;-)

[The Feral Underclass]

Originally posted by h&[email protected] 26 2005, 04:13 PM
I just don&#39;t see what relevance freeganism has to everyday people.
We are everyday people.


I think that there are better ways to spend your time than promoting this.


People who get off their arses, go and get into a food skip and take out the food that is perfectly fine and eating it, instead of buying food for a consumer driven corporation, who profits from us, is far more preferable to someone who claims to be opposed to such things.
Why?
The point is to change these things, not trying to be morally superior and bypassing them.

Ah yes, the party line.

First of all it isn&#39;t about being "morally superior" or "bypassing" everything. I see that the Socialist Party doesn&#39;t teach you logic.

It&#39;s not one or the other; one thing this way or one thing that way. You can, shock horror, combine things.

Surely it is better to live a lifestyle that reflects your ideas while participating in struggle, than not doing it?

[The Feral Underclass]

Originally posted by h&[email protected] 27 2005, 02:16 PM
1. Stealing food from Walmart only disadvantages the workers, no-one else. If bosses see their profits going down
No it doesn&#39;t. Walmart don&#39;t price their wages based on hopw many products they have had stolen from them.

And what would you suggest someone does if they have no money to buy themselves some food?


If a Walmart had a bad theft problem, the workers would be put under so much pressure to stop it.

They already are.


2. Fighting capitalism is not about finding new ways to live; thats called being a hippy.

I never realised before how narrow-minded you are.

It has nothing to do with being a hippy. Finding new ways to live your life than participating in exploitative and oppressive institutions is completely rational and better to do than not doing it.

Secondly, it isn&#39;t, like I said already, one or the other.


Fighting capitalism is aout overthrowing capitalism and its ruling class.

But we live right now, and some people do things which help them survive. Would you rather people didn&#39;t survive as long as it was in a nice little package of work/wages/taxes?

[Palmares]

Originally posted by h&[email protected] 27 2005, 11:16 PM
1. Stealing food from Walmart only disadvantages the workers, no-one else. If bosses see their profits going down, they&#39;ll just pay the workers less, as all profit is wages not payed to workers. If a Walmart had a bad theft problem, the workers would be put under so much pressure to stop it.
Corporations actually get paid an estimation, by the government, of how much they would lose from stealing, so workers aren&#39;t really hurt much, if at all.

By virtue of this, not stealing from a corporation infact gives them free money from the government.

[h&s]

Originally posted by The Anachist Tension+--> (The Anachist Tension)Ah yes, the party line.

First of all it isn&#39;t about being "morally superior" or "bypassing" everything. I see that the Socialist Party doesn&#39;t teach you logic.
[/b]
Oh of course. I am a member of the SP so that must automatically mean that what I post is what I have been told. I forgot that I can&#39;t think for myself.
And I haven&#39;t even talked to anyone at SP about anarchism, except for brief discussions about protests.
You know better than that.
And to me, it does seem very much like bypassing society.


Surely it is better to live a lifestyle that reflects your ideas while participating in struggle, than not doing it?
I don&#39;t see how this lifestyle reflects my ideas. I already live in a way that means I do not waste food. To me anti-capitalism is about working with others to change things, this is more like changing things one person at a time.
I think that changing other people&#39;s outlook and ways is a much better way of solving the problem, than eating their waste. If people can be persuaded not to throw food away the problem is solved. That is much better than eating the waste, as that is reacting to the problem.


No it doesn&#39;t. Walmart don&#39;t price their wages based on hopw many products they have had stolen from them.
But they would worsen conditions for the workers if profits were hit.


And what would you suggest someone does if they have no money to buy themselves some food?
Steal it or get it from bins, if not from shelters. I&#39;m not saying that this is wrong, I&#39;m just saying that it doesn&#39;t fit in with politics.


They already are.
So not adding to it would be the right thing to do?


I never realised before how narrow-minded you are.

It has nothing to do with being a hippy. Finding new ways to live your life than participating in exploitative and oppressive institutions is completely rational and better to do than not doing it.
How is just giving somthing a label being narrow-minded? I never said that there was anything wrong with it, neither did I say that people shouldn&#39;t do it.
This is a hippy-like thing to do as it is about creating a new society instead of changing the old


But we live right now, and some people do things which help them survive. Would you rather people didn&#39;t survive as long as it was in a nice little package of work/wages/taxes?
As I have already said, if people need to do this, there is nothing wrong - there&#39;s nothing wrong with it anyway.
I don&#39;t quite get what you mean with the rest of it though.

--------

tantric
violent revolution is insane. "overthrow capitalism", you and what army? vs. the usgov. right. you have hand guns, they have neutron bombs. thanks to technology, the state now has an overwhelming and unbeatable advantage. find another way.
Who said anything about an armed army revolution? I am talking about worker&#39;s revolution, where workers seize power in their workplaces, and then the state. Yes the army&#39;s going to get involved against it, but they&#39;re hardly going to nuke picket lines are they?

[Regicidal Insomniac]

If shoplifting actually affected corporate profits, I&#39;d do it a hell of alot more often.

[Severian]

Originally posted by h&[email protected] 27 2005, 07:16 AM
Y1. Stealing food from Walmart only disadvantages the workers, no-one else. If bosses see their profits going down, they&#39;ll just pay the workers less, as all profit is wages not payed to workers. If a Walmart had a bad theft problem, the workers would be put under so much pressure to stop it.
Eh...no. Even Wal-Mart usually says theft will lead to higher prices, not lower wages.

The bosses pay us as little as we&#39;ll put up with (aka the socially determined value of labor-power). Lower profits do not automatically mean lower wages any more than higher profits automatically mean higher wages&#33;


2. Fighting capitalism is not about finding new ways to live; thats called being a hippy. Fighting capitalism is aout overthrowing capitalism and its ruling class.

Yes, and thanks. Glad somebody finally pointed that out.

Alternative lifestyles and individual solutions are all about making an accomodation with the system; a little niche you can live in while the system grinds on.

Eventually it will probably find a way to make a buck off your rebellious lifestyle. Maybe there&#39;ll be a Mountain Dewi commercial featuring dumpster-divers soon. Y&#39;know, they find a case and forget about all the other great stuff in the dumpster so they can "Do the Dew." &#39;Cause the Dew is rebellious and eXtreme, just like they are.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Freeganism ain&#39;t stealing, it&#39;s relieving people of unwanted stuff.

I really don&#39;t see what "wrong" with Freeganism per se - but I can see why people object to it as an alternative to actual revolution.

For fuck&#39;s sake people, it&#39;s free food. Stop *****ing.

[h&s]

I never meant to ***** about it. I am just incapable of actually writing what I really want to say&#33;

[Vanguard1917]

aint nothing revolutionary about eating shit.

:D Very well said&#33;

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2005, 05:50 PM

aint nothing revolutionary about eating shit.

:D Very well said&#33;
It&#39;s not shit. It&#39;s food that&#39;s only one or two days past it&#39;s sell-by date.

[Severian]

Originally posted by [email protected] 30 2005, 03:21 AM
I really don&#39;t see what "wrong" with Freeganism per se - but I can see why people object to it as an alternative to actual revolution.
Right. I don&#39;t care if somebody wants to dumpster-dive, or become a vegetarian, or adopt some sexual-liberation-oriented lifestyle, or whatever.

But when somebody says that lifestyle is "revolutionary", or "The way a REAL revolutionary lives", I gotta say: bullshit.

There&#39;s also an implied opposition to food-safety laws I don&#39;t care for; saying they&#39;re overly cautious. I&#39;m sure the supermarket industry agrees.

[Organic Revolution]

Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2005, 11:50 AM

aint nothing revolutionary about eating shit.

:D Very well said&#33;
i can get the same meal you eat from the dumpster, for free. dumpster food is perfect, and like noXion said, it is only 1, 2 or at the most 3 days past its experation. i have come by food in dumpsters that was 8 days before experation. what is the point of wasting your money in the store, when you can get the stuff from the back?

[Vanguard1917]

i can get the same meal you eat from the dumpster, for free. dumpster food is perfect, and like noXion said, it is only 1, 2 or at the most 3 days past its experation. i have come by food in dumpsters that was 8 days before experation. what is the point of wasting your money in the store, when you can get the stuff from the back?

You can eat what you personally want to eat. All I&#39;m saying is that this is not a suitable basis for providing an entire society with food, and it is in no way whatsoever revolutionary. Your perspective also has a primitivist, anti-mass production prejudice to food production and consumption. The fact that hunger has been largely eradicated in advanced capitalist societies is precisely due to the mass production and distribution of food.

Why exactly are you so hostile to supermarkets? If your reason is the exploitation of labour, then i&#39;m with you. But if it&#39;s because you have some sort of problem with the large-scale production of food, and you wish to return to some sort of petit-bourgeois small market place, when we used to get our Sunday steak from the local grubby butcher, then you want to turn back historical progress and you are therefore a reactionary.

[Regicidal Insomniac]

... this is not a suitable basis for providing an entire society with food...

Okay, I&#39;m curious: where has anyone advocated that all farms, markets, and kitchens should be replaced with a complex series of waste reciplicals?


Your perspective also has a primitivist, anti-mass production prejudice to food production...

Seriously, where are you getting this stuff from? How is re-using waste produced by capitalism synonomous with the hatred of civilization? This isn&#39;t about mass-production, it&#39;s about mass-waste; and both happen to be mutually inclusive under capitalism.


... hunger has been largely eradicated in advanced capitalist societies...

Which is why tens of millions of Americans experienced food insecurity last year and why close to a million Canadians have to visit the Food Bank every month...


... then you want to turn back historical progress and you are therefore a reactionary.

:blink:

[apathy maybe]

Saying that freeganism hurts workers is like saying that me not eating McDonalds or other crap hurts their workers. Bullshit. If enough people did it, well I guess they would go out of business and thus I guess the workers would have to get new jobs. But saying that I should eat crap because otherwise it would hurt workers is bullshit. I should in fact go and buy a car, and a computer etc. because otherwise those people who make the things would not have jobs. And we can&#39;t hurt the workers can we&#33;


Freeganism is about not contributing to the capitalist system, or else contributing as little as possible. If you hate capitalism, then you should not support it. That means no buying stuff. So how do you survive? You steal it or otherwise get it for free.

And personally I don&#39;t give a shit if some &#39;worker&#39; does not get a pay rise, or even gets a pay cut because I did not buy some piece of crap.


Being revolutionary is about how one lives. If a person does not live in line with their ethics or morals, then they are being hypocritical. Simply being a member of the working class doesn&#39;t mean shit, especially if you continue to consume crap.

Freeganism is about not being part of the consumer culture. You can be a revolutionary, and you can be a freegan. One almost implies the other.

[crimsonzephyr]

sorry to resurrect a three year old thread but i am really interested in freeganism.

I'm a vegetarian now. I am way too young to be an all out freegan though, as i am only a sophomore in highschool...

I hate investing money in food, why should we have to pay money to live? Food should be free

[Zurdito]

my opinion is that consumer activism fatally flawed in that only people with money can practice consumer activism in the first place, as only they have power as consumers. I think the idea that consumers should "let their wallets do the talking" fits comfortably within market logic and market ideology.

"Producer" activism however - ie worker activism - empowers those who do not have power as consumers, rather than placing them at the whim of their bosses responses to the demands of consumers - including "moral" ones.

EDIt: I just realised how old this is. it's frustrating to reply to people who have disappeared. Maybe you could have started a new thread instead?

[Dystisis]

i live freegan to an extent... but, i wont eat anything with animal products.
Why? You don't like the taste? That, or if it's a medical reason, I see no reason why not...
To each his/her own I guess.

Personally I eat loads of meat products. I've never tried dumpster diving because I haven't needed it economically (yet).

[Aduro]

I've flirted with dumpster diving before, and frankly, I was disgusted by some of the things that businesses throw out. I dumpstered a whole load of edble fruit that could of gone to waist.
In the near future, I plan to dive a lot more, and try to live a freegan life, this will be as soon as I leave school though.
I might even set up a local Food not Bombs chapter, if I keep horeding enough food.

[Vanguard1917]

I've often thought about different ways of living life more inline with my political beliefs (living a moral life as it were), but have found both vegetarianism and vegan both restricting, and even perhaps too extreme (I believe in the possibility of having animals on a small farm that I take good care of and perhaps could one day eat).

Then myself and some friends got more into stealing and dumpster diving food.

Then we came across freeganism.



Though I do not yet fully live by this, I am attempting some sort of transition to it, and hence to live a much more authentic existence.

Opinions?

Voluntarily eating out of bins? Now i've heard it all.

[Cencus]

I used to live in a squat in London bout 17 years ago. There was about 10 of us all complete pissheads, we used to live on the local co-op skip and spend all our money on beer. We'd get loads of stuff I remember boxes of cheese crisps microwave popcorn! over and above the usual bread and veggies a day out n such like. I'd never take anything that wasn't wrapped. No one ever got food poisoning or even the runs so it does work but you do start to miss fresh bread :)

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Voluntarily eating out of bins? Now i've heard it all.

When will you drop the pointless snobby attitude and realise that in wasteful capitalist society not all things that are thrown away are useless?

Personally, if one can save money by grabbing hold of free food, especially if it's going to waste anyway, one would be totally bonkers not to go for it.

[Vanguard1917]

Eating out of bins is an insult to human dignity. It's what some of the world's most desperate people are sometimes forced to do - because they are poor and have no choice. The real bonkers thing is that some middle class Westerners do this out of choice, as some kind of bizarre political statement.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Eating out of bins is an insult to human dignity.

An entirely unsupported statement. Haven't you seen exactly what supermarkets et al throw out? The sheer wastefulness boggles the mind and is far more harmful than making use of perfectly good food that is simply thrown away.

I would say that it is more of an insult to human dignity for enirely edible food to be thrown to waste while there are people in the world who don't get enough to eat.


It's what some of the world's most desperate people are sometimes forced to do - because they are poor and have no choice.

And I don't think less of them for it. Why is buying things "better"?


The real bonkers thing is that some middle class Westerners do this out of choice, as some kind of bizarre political statement.

I'm personally not aware of this as anything but a way of getting something which should be free in the first place. Dumpster diving enabled me to eat well while I was squatting - it wasn't about making political statements, it was about filling empty bellies.

[apathy maybe]

Vanguard, statements like those are the reason people think you are actually a closet capitalist. Capitalists hate people getting things for free, and so apparently do you.

Anyway, I'll share one experience I've had with dumpster diving (a couple of years ago now).

I went down to the usual place, and discovered a big box of eggs. Obviously someone had dropped the box, and in each carton one or two eggs were broken.

So what did I do? I grabbed heaps of free, good eggs. I ripped off the bits of carton that had been damaged, and filled them up.

Why did I dumpster dive? Because it meant that I could save my money, and in the end fly around the world. It isn't "middle class" to save money.

[Mujer Libre]

Also, as NoXion got at, dumpster-diving is not the same as ferreting around in say, household waste.

Supermarket dumpsters aren't even all that grubby- they're just full of fantastic fresh fruit and vegetables, day old bread and slightly damaged goods. That is the undignified part- that there are people out there who need the food that gets thrown out for no good reason- not that there are people out there willing to make use of it.

VG- how do you feel about curb-scavenging? It's basically the same principle.

[Everyday Anarchy]

What if you were strolling by and saw an employee about to throw out a bunch of just expired juice... if he asked you if you'd like it for free, there'd be no stigma about saying yes. One minute later (if you hadn't been strolling by at that time), the juice is in the dumpster. Now if anybody takes it, they're a disgrace to humans?

I'm sorry if this was brought up earlier in this post, but I'm curious, Vanguard, if you would or ever have accept(ed) food from a Food Not Bombs chapter.

[Vanguard1917]

Dumpster diving enabled me to eat well while I was squatting - it wasn't about making political statements, it was about filling empty bellies.

So you did not do it out of choice, then? You did it out of a lack of choice. You wouldn't eat out of bins if you did not have to.

What i referred to as bonkers are those people who do do it out of choice, as some kind of strange political/lifestylist statement. People like the person who started this thread:


I've often thought about different ways of living life more inline with my political beliefs (living a moral life as it were), but have found both vegetarianism and vegan both restricting, and even perhaps too extreme (I believe in the possibility of having animals on a small farm that I take good care of and perhaps could one day eat).

Then myself and some friends got more into stealing and dumpster diving food.

Then we came across freeganism.

[crimsonzephyr]

So you did not do it out of choice, then? You did it out of a lack of choice. You wouldn't eat out of bins if you did not have to.

Of course he did it out of lack of choice. If we lived in a world where food was supplied for all why would we waste our time digging through dumpsters? As of the current times same people cant afford food, others can but tend not to waste their money. It is also a way to stay alive without supporting big corporations, which we all should believe in here.

[Black-Star]

Freeganism has nothing to do with bringing about social change. Fair enough that its effective at avoiding consumerism, but where does it go from there? Do people really hope to bring about the revolution through dumpster diving and shoplifting? Do you really expect the masses to take you seriously? people are not going to be expected to eat out of bins after the revolution so why should it be any different now? Freeganism entails a dependency on the scraps of capitalism. I dont completely dismiss it as having no merit. However i see that most of the advocates of freeganism and dumpster diving are bourgeoisie individualist morons with no real concept of working class struggle at all, rather are post modernist nihilists who are intrested in escapism rather than confronting capitalism head on. Thats not to say im making assumptions of those who have made posts in regards to this topic, i am speaking from first hand experience on certain would be "revolutionaries" who instead of reading books and essays with some kind of merit, are too busy burying their noses in atrocious rubbish like crimethinc. Freeganism is a personal individualist choice that shouldnt have anything to do with working class struggle. Vegetarianism and veganism are different in the sense that animal rights should be an integral part of the liberation struggle. For further reading i suggest Bob Torres Making A Killing: The Political Economy of Animal Rights

[LavenderMenace]

"What i referred to as bonkers are those people who do do it out of choice, as some kind of strange political/lifestylist statement. People like the person who started this thread:

Quote:
I've often thought about different ways of living life more inline with my political beliefs (living a moral life as it were), but have found both vegetarianism and vegan both restricting, and even perhaps too extreme (I believe in the possibility of having animals on a small farm that I take good care of and perhaps could one day eat).

Then myself and some friends got more into stealing and dumpster diving food.

Then we came across freeganism."

I think what that person was referring to was the 'morality' behind the 'free' part of freeganism. (They asked for other's opinions and so, probably shouldn't be attacked.) Yes, freeganism uses capitalism's scraps. No, freeganism will not begin and end the revolution. What I would suggest is spending more time learning ways to sustain yourself wherever you might be living (urban gardening?). Though I have no problem, morally or otherwise with eating out of a dumpster - I like saving money and why should it all that marvelous food go to waste?

As far as the political statement of 'freeganism' - it's another symbolic thing, which most demonstrations and 'lifestyles' (word choice?) we must admit, are; most things we do are in some way connected to capitalism. I'm not saying this to infer we shouldn't do anything, I just don't prefer that cynical argument. Just saying, we're going to have to use the scraps of capitalism in order to overthrow it.

[apathy maybe]

Having been one of the people the thread starter talked about (way back in 2005 mind you), I know that they were not meaning this thread to be a promotion of a "revolutionary lifestyle" or something.

Indeed, the whole point of freeganism is (as pointed out) about living a more authentic life, one more in line with the revolutionary beliefs of the thread starter.

So, I'm against capitalism, and desire to overthrow it, in the mean time I try and participate as little as possible (or at the least contribute as little as possible). Perfectly compatible ideas, perfectly logical.

The thread start knew (and knows) that freeganism isn't revolutionary in and off it self. They aren't stupid.


@LavenderMenace
This thread is originally from 2005, at least one of the attackers (Vanguard1917) is a well known capitalist apologist and should be ignored on most issues. Just so you know ;).

[Black-Star]

I know the thread starter personally and my response was not aimed at him at all, I was making a point that the majority of those that subscribe to Freeganism are in fact doing nothing to bring about social change, rather there partaking in bourgeoisie escapism by dumpster diving and squatting without even considering getting involved in a workers union or an anarchist collective. Whatever welfare payments they get are spent on alcohol and drugs and when it comes to the mutual part of mutual aid cant even fork out loose change for Food not Bombs or pay to get into benefit events. (Note also I'm targeting this at particular so called "revolutionary stereotypes") but it wouldn't surprise me that this is the mentality of many would-be activists out there that have an extremely immature concept of what revolutionary activity really is.

[apathy maybe]

Umm, I wonder if I know you. Probably not ;). (I made a type in my thread above, since fixed.)

Personally I would suggest that if people are simply dumpster diving to save money, and not as a political statement (as such), then it isn't freeganism at all.
Just like not eating meat because you can't afford it isn't vegetarianism.

Freeganism is more then just getting free food, (otherwise shop-lifting would be considered freeganism), it is about not contributing to capitalism and not increasing demand (shop-lifting creates demand, it requires the liberated items to be replaced).

As for people who think that living a lifestyle is revolutionary, well they are wrong, but most of us know it, and having that argument on RevLeft isn't going to help anyone (it would mostly be an agree-fest).

[RedAnarchist]

I've only ever done it once, but to suggest its somehow bad is just idiotic, unless getting a free cheese butty meant that I did something wrong.

[LavenderMenace]

-apathy maybe, thanks for the tip.

[chimx]

Once when I was homeless and jobless for a little over a month I would eat food from dumpsters. I never had to stop being vegan though.

Most freegans that I have met seem to have used it as a means for breaking their veganism.

[Sankofa]

I worked at a local grocery store in my town for three years during high school, and it's just now occuring to me how much Freeganism makes sense.

You wouldn't believe how food gets tossed for the pettiest of reasons; food boxes with simple rips/tears, dented canned foods and juice jugs, bread and other soft products that were a little smushed...hell, I remember a manager throwing out an entire case of Hostess snacks because the packaging was dusty on the outside from being in the back!

The thought of going out back and scoring a haul of perfectly edible free food never once crossed my mind.

In my opinion, all the negativity Freeganism has received here is due directly from our up bringing in this extreme capitalist society. If people see you rooting through the trash, no matter how practical and sanitary it may be, they might think you're poor!

Call me what you want, but I don't see the problem getting something for free what I would usually pay for, especially when there's nothing wrong with the food.

[apathy maybe]

I worked at a local grocery store in my town for three years during high school, and it's just now occuring to me how much Freeganism makes sense.

You wouldn't believe how food gets tossed for the pettiest of reasons; food boxes with simple rips/tears, dented canned foods and juice jugs, bread and other soft products that were a little smushed...hell, I remember a manager throwing out an entire case of Hostess snacks because the packaging was dusty on the outside from being in the back!

The thought of going out back and scoring a haul of perfectly edible free food never once crossed my mind.

In my opinion, all the negativity Freeganism has received here is due directly from our up bringing in this extreme capitalist society. If people see you rooting through the trash, no matter how practical and sanitary it may be, they might think you're poor!

Call me what you want, but I don't see the problem getting something for free what I would usually pay for, especially when there's nothing wrong with the food.
And this is one reason why many people are freegans. Because they see all this perfectly good food being wasted.

Thank you for posting this, it is a better case of what gets thrown out and why then anything that I could provide.

So, for all you rejects who still have a problem, capitalism wastes food, why pay for perfectly good food if you don't have to? (Even if you can.)

[Sloth]

i think it's an excuse to be a bum.

if you want free food than grow it.

[Plagueround]

i think

Please don't lie.


it's an excuse to be a bum.

As opposed to having to depend on insanely high and rising food prices? Certainly it isn't "revolutionary", but it isn't stupid or an excuse to be a bum.


if you want free food than grow it.

That's not really free now is it?

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

i think it's an excuse to be a bum.

You can "think" whatever you please, but the facts of matter are that it's better than paying for ridiculously inflated food prices.

What's wrong with being a bum?


if you want free food than grow it.

It costs money to buy seeds, and you need land to grow it own. Considering I live in a flat with no grounds on it, growing food is out of the question for me and others in my situation.

[Vanguard1917]

If you're strapped for cash, then fair enough. You eat out of bins out of necessity. But celebrating eating out of bins as being some kind of moral virtue, and turning it into some bizarre political identity or 'anti-consumerist' lifestyle choice ('freeganism'), is what i call nuts.

In an ideal world, no one would have to go into bins to find food. To state the obvious, not everyone can 'dumpster dive'. It's neither possible nor desirable. For a start, there aren't enough bins for 6.5 billion people to eat out of, even if they desired to do so. As a Western and often middle class lifestyle choice, 'freeganism' can only ever be a minority activity - so i'm not sure why its being put forward by some as a viable alternative to shopping.

[ZeroNowhere]

It sounds like 'Reagan'. Kinda. Thus, it is bad and makes you a Republican. :rolleyes:

[Sankofa]

Since this thread's already been bumped! Following many months after my initial post, I've actually been doing a little Freeganism every now and again.

Example: There's a Little Caesars (pizza restaurant chain) near my uni; and usually every night, they have extra pizza left over. Guess what they do with it?

They put the boxed pizza in a garbage bag and throw the damned things in the dumpster!

I've managed to eat for a whole week off perfectly edible throw-away pizza. I just open the dumpster gate, reach in, take out a garbage bag, rip it open and viola! free food; costs me $0.00. Put it in the microwave and you're good to go.

Does that make me a bum? I dunno, but I'm too busy thinking of ways to spend my extra cash to worry about it. :)

[bcbm]

Dumpstered pizza is the shit.

[Lamanov]

I've often thought about different ways of living life more inline with my political beliefs ... Then we came across freeganism.

What political beliefs are those? Ah, wait, don't tell me, don't tell me... You're some sort of an "anarchist", aren't you? You wanna "practice what you preach", right?

Aah, yes, anarchist politics are completely in tune with "freeganism". We just love how capitalist system creates waste, unemployment and stupid subcultural escape routes, so we want to combine them all into one happy "anarchic" free-love anti-work "adventure".

I mean, why pay for shit, when you can pick stuff out of a dumpster? Why work then? There are people, voluntary servants of the System, those stupid assholes, who already do all the work. They are called "workers". Ha ha! Imagine that. We also don't drive: it's not very nature friendly; but we do hitchhike rides from those asshole workers who drive on their way to work. That we can do...

:rolleyes:

[Plagueround]

I think the only thing more annoying than self-righteous lifestylists are the self-righterous anti-lifestylists, who shun anything and everything that is different from our current capitalist mode of living and production on the basis that anything else is "anti-progress".

Right-wing lifestylism! :lol:

[FreeFocus]

I've not considered freeganism for myself, personally, but would not bash anyone for their choice. I respect people who change their lifestyles in accordance with their beliefs. Really, it's the only appropriate thing to do (as much as it can be done in one's circumstances). Still, lifestylism is no substitute for organization and action, although I understand people's frustration with a seemingly static world and their desire to live how they'd like.

What I support is a group like Food Not Bombs, which combine grassroots organization with lifestyle changes.

[Vanguard1917]

I think the only thing more annoying than self-righteous lifestylists are the self-righterous anti-lifestylists, who shun anything and everything that is different from our current capitalist mode of living and production on the basis that anything else is "anti-progress".


What's anti-"capitalist mode of living" about voluntarily eating out of bins?


Right-wing lifestylism! :lol:

What's leftwing about voluntarily about eating out of bins?

Obviously, nothing at all. There is nothing anti-capitalist, leftwing or morally virtuous about the 'freegan' lifestyle choice. And, as DJ-TC rightly pointed out, such middle class lifestylism is often based on negative assumptions about the masses, i.e. those stupid idiots who are obsessed with consumerism. Like i pointed out in my previous post, the freegan lifestyle can only ever be adopted by a tiny minority. Why? Because even if everyone did suddenly desire to eat out of skips, there just aren't enough skips to feed 6.5 billions people. In other words, whether it is conscious of this, dumpster-diving is an elite activity.

[Jazzratt]

In other words, whether it is conscious of this, dumpster-diving is an elite activity.

Minority and elite are not exactly the same. Eating out of skips, generally, is practiced by people who haven't even heard the word "freegan", they are doing it because they have to.

While there is nothing morally commendable or politically meaningful in a dumpstered mealthere's nothing reprehensible in it. As many here have pointed out it certainly saves money for other things and, with a little knowledge, can be perfectly safe. Lining up to attack the practice, to me, is juts nonsensical.

[Vanguard1917]

Minority and elite are not exactly the same. Eating out of skips, generally, is practiced by people who haven't even heard the word "freegan", they are doing it because they have to.

I'm aware of that. I'm refering specifically to people who do it voluntarily as a lifestyle choice and a political statement - i.e. "freegans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freegan)".



Lining up to attack the practice, to me, is juts nonsensical


Even though, as a political statement, it is based on some pretty idiotic assumptions about society and people in general?

Read the wikipedia article on "freeganism" that i just linked. It is not just a practical means of consuming food for free; it's seen by those who ascribe to the lifestyle as some kind of politically and morally superior way of living. If they're superior, guess who's apparently inferior? The unethical consumerism-addicted masses.

In reality, though, as i keep emphasising, digging into bins is not a viable alternative to shopping for society as a whole. There is absolutely nothing superior about it.

[Rascolnikova]

In reality, though, as i keep emphasising, digging into bins is not a viable alternative to shopping for society as a whole. There is absolutely nothing superior about it.

I almost never buy clothing new. This is not a viable alternative to shopping for society as a whole--but it reduces my consumer impact.

As long as there is enough waste to live off of, it's a good idea for someone to be using it.

[Vanguard1917]

I almost never buy clothing new. This is not a viable alternative to shopping for society as a whole--but it reduces my consumer impact.

Whatever floats your boat, i guess. If you buy second-hand clothes because it makes you feel better about yourself, go for it. Unlike anti-consumerist campaigners, what you wear and where you shop really do not concern me in the slightest.

It is ironic that the very people who moan the most about mass consumption are at the same time the ones who are the most obsessed with consumption. Working class people tend to have a relatively very practical attitude towards consumption; it's a means to live and not some kind of political or moral statement about themselves. The same can't be said of the middle class anti-consumerists, who seem to define themselves precisely through their own consumption choices. Organic, fairtrade, locally produced, free range, whatever: such choices are seen to define themselves as individuals who are more ethical, sophisticated and righteous. This is counterposed to the people who don't share their shopping habits - i.e. the masses - who are unethical, vulgar, lack good taste, improper, unconscientious.

"Anti-consumerism" is really, in essence, just good old-fashioned middle class snobbery.

[Plagueround]

What's anti-"capitalist mode of living" about voluntarily eating out of bins?

Not anti-capitalist. Find where it says anti-capitalist in my post...I said different. People do these things as an alternative. Just because people do this as an alternative to having to pay for hugely overpriced food, whether they can afford it otherwise or not, does not make the activity automatically elitist or a bad idea. In particular, you actually attack the act and are reviled by it, as if someone who can afford to buy the food should "suck it up" and pay for the food instead of eating perfectly good food that a bunch of dipshits throw away for a profit margin.




What's leftwing about voluntarily about eating out of bins?

Obviously, nothing at all. There is nothing anti-capitalist, leftwing or morally virtuous about the 'freegan' lifestyle choice.Obviously, nothing at all. But just as people who think they're making a huge "left wing" difference by living a particular lifestyle are superior or better than the masses, you do the exact opposite of that by attacking anyone who's not living the normal consumerist lifestyle that capitalism has pushed on people. It's almost as if you want everyone to be "the best capitalist they can" until we replace the system (although I think you really are just a cappie). By doing this, you make yourself no better, if not worse, than deluded, self-righteous lifestylists. I will openly attack both of you for your disgusting elitism.


And, as DJ-TC rightly pointed out, such middle class lifestylism is often based on negative assumptions about the masses, i.e. those stupid idiots who are obsessed with consumerism.And this is what should be attacked.


Like i pointed out in my previous post, the freegan lifestyle can only ever be adopted by a tiny minority. Why? Because even if everyone did suddenly desire to eat out of skips, there just aren't enough skips to feed 6.5 billions people.No shit. I don't think anyone is advocating that at all. I've often thought the same thing about other lifestylist choices like buying from thrift stores and running vehicles off of vegetable oil...if everyone did it, it wouldn't reduce the impact people are making (whether or not it actually has any effect on production I don't have evidence for either way). However, there is nothing inherently wrong with these ideas...people should not have to go buy brand new clothes or purchase a load of expensive groceries if there are perfectly fine alternatives to doing so. So long as it is approached with a "do what you can" attitude (which the majority of people I know that do such things do, the elitism seems to be more focused on the internet) and not a "I'm better because I do this" there really isn't a problem other than you being offended because you think someone is challenging your precious capitalist mode of production.

If you focused half of that energy attacking capitalism instead of leftists, or were at least a tiny bit less apologetic of capitalism and more understanding of current leftists, we would probably have achieved revolution by now. :rolleyes:


In other words, whether it is conscious of this, dumpster-diving is an elite activity.I'll go tell that to all those homeless people out there on my streets. Fucking elitists. Might want to rephrase that one.

By the way, I don't know about anyone else here, but I'm certainly not middle-class at all. Maybe I'm close before taxes and student loan payments gut my paychecks, but certainly not after. You're attacking the fictional lifestylist middle class like Reagan demonized the "Black Welfare Queen".

[bcbm]

What political beliefs are those? Ah, wait, don't tell me, don't tell me... You're some sort of an "anarchist", aren't you? You wanna "practice what you preach", right?

Aah, yes, anarchist politics are completely in tune with "freeganism". We just love how capitalist system creates waste, unemployment and stupid subcultural escape routes, so we want to combine them all into one happy "anarchic" free-love anti-work "adventure".

I mean, why pay for shit, when you can pick stuff out of a dumpster? Why work then? There are people, voluntary servants of the System, those stupid assholes, who already do all the work. They are called "workers". Ha ha! Imagine that. We also don't drive: it's not very nature friendly; but we do hitchhike rides from those asshole workers who drive on their way to work. That we can do...

:rolleyes:

Wow, you extrapolated A LOT from one little fucking sentence. Beyond that, your assumptions are completely wrong. What an asshole. :glare:

[Vanguard1917]

Not anti-capitalist. Find where it says anti-capitalist in my post...I said different.


That was the implication. Since shopping is a 'capitalist mode of living', voluntarily eating out of bins must be somehow being against capitalism.



But just as people who think they're making a huge "left wing" difference by living a particular lifestyle are superior or better than the masses, you do the exact opposite of that by attacking anyone who's not living the normal consumerist lifestyle that capitalism has pushed on people. It's almost as if you want everyone to be "the best capitalist they can" until we replace the system (although I think you really are just a cappie).


There you go again: the idea that by consuming and wanting to consume, working class people are somehow being 'capitalists'.

They should all voluntarily reduce themselves to digging out bins instead, should they? Why not? It is an 'alternative' to the 'capitalist mode of living', after all...



people should not have to go buy brand new clothes or purchase a load of expensive groceries if there are perfectly fine alternatives to doing so.


But then you are insisting that 'freeganism' is some kind of alternative to shopping, when it obviously isn't.



If you focused half of that energy attacking capitalism instead of leftists


Didn't we agree that there's nothing leftist about eating out of bins? How can i be attacking leftists if we have already established that there's nothing leftist about "freeganism"?



I'll go tell that to all those homeless people out there on my streets.


The term 'dumpster diving' (as a practice associated with 'freeganism') refers to people who go into bins voluntarily as a political or moral statement.

I am not critising people who have to eat out of bins out of necessity - although, of course, i am fully against the fact that people in this day and age continue to be forced to do so. In other words, unlike the "freegan" "anti-consumerists", i don't celebrate the practice and choose to opt into it.

Also, as i pointed out in my previous post, it is actually the "anti-consumerists" themselves who are ones engaging in anti-working class elitism.

[Plagueround]

That was the implication. Since shopping is a 'capitalist mode of living', voluntarily eating out of bins must be somehow being against capitalism.

What that actually reveals is either a fundamental flaw in your logic or reinforces the fact that you're just a cappie in red. It is not against capitalism, but it is an alternative to always having to shop for food. The capitalist mode of living requires us to sell our labor for wages to buy said food, therefore, yes, it is the "capitalist mode of living". However I've made it rather clear that is is a viable alternative for some as opposed to always having to rely on that mode of production. Clearly it's not "fighting the system", but is does offer an alternative. There is a difference.


There you go again: the idea that by consuming and wanting to consume, working class people are somehow being 'capitalists'.

They should all voluntarily reduce themselves to digging out bins instead, should they? Why not? It is an 'alternative' to the 'capitalist mode of living', after all...We should add a chit chat award for "poster who puts the most words in other people's mouths". You'd clean up.

The idea of consumption is not inherently capitalist. The idea that one must always adhere to the capitalist mode of production or they are arrogant and trying to claim superiority to others than is classic capitalist rhetoric. I would hope that, with as well versed in all this as you claim to be, you would know the difference between consumption and capitalist consumerism.

As a side note, I would hope in a communist society, since it would be geared toward providing and not profit, we would do a slightly better job of not doing stupid shit like making more food than could possibly be consumed in a day, then throwing it away.


But then you are insisting that 'freeganism' is some kind of alternative to shopping, when it obviously isn't.I would say by the large number of people posting about how much free food they manage to get and thus spend money on other things, it clearly is an alternative for some. I've also mentioned it isn't viable for everyone and is not something everyone would be able to do, but you've left that out so you can continue your myopic attack of anything you disagree with.


Didn't we agree that there's nothing leftist about eating out of bins? How can i be attacking leftists if we have already established that there's nothing leftist about "freeganism"?I don't know if you noticed or not, but this is a site for leftists. Compare your attacks against the people on this site to the way you constantly apologize for capitalism and you might get it. I wasn't saying that in relation to this post and this post alone.


The term 'dumpster diving' (as a practice associated with 'freeganism') refers to people who go into bins voluntarily as a political or moral statement.The term dumpster diving refers to diving into a dumpster to get food out of it. Anything people want to add to that, they can answer for.


I am not critising people who have to eat out of bins out of necessity - although, of course, i am fully against the fact that people in this day and age continue to be forced to do so.Ronald and Margaret would be proud of you. Been paying attention to the news lately?


In other words, unlike the "freegan" "anti-consumerists", i don't celebrate the practice and choose to opt into it.The two are not mutually inclusive. This is why you should be attacking the attitude and not the act.


Also, as i pointed out in my previous post, it is actually the "anti-consumerists" themselves who are ones engaging in anti-working class elitism.Only the ones that use that as their reason, which is a category you decided you would lump everyone into because you're not keen on the idea. The problem here is some people engage in a lack of separation from revolutionary activity and lifestyle activity. But that doesn't mean anything that isn't revolutionary is an inherently bad idea, so long as the people perpetuating these ideas are not falsely promoting them as such and trying to maintain a level of superiority over others...something most people in this thread have adamantly claimed they don't support, despite your insistence to the contrary.

[Revy]

Whoa! I haven't talked about this in a long time. I'm a vegan, but not a "freegan" as I really am grossed out by the idea of dumpster diving. Also I don't think there is anything vegan about eating food with animal products even if it's going to be wasted. It might still be freegan but it's not vegan.

[Vanguard1917]

It is not against capitalism, but it is an alternative to always having to shop for food. The capitalist mode of living requires us to sell our labor for wages to buy said food, therefore, yes, it is the "capitalist mode of living". However I've made it rather clear that is is a viable alternative for some as opposed to always having to rely on that mode of production. Clearly it's not "fighting the system", but is does offer an alternative. There is a difference.



Exactly. You feel that eating out of bins provides an alternative to the 'capitalist mode of living'. In other words, it provides an alternative to capitalism.



The idea of consumption is not inherently capitalist. The idea that one must always adhere to the capitalist mode of production or they are arrogant and trying to claim superiority to others than is classic capitalist rhetoric.



Again, you are arguing that bin-dipping isn't 'adhering' to capitalism, whereas shopping is.

In other words, you look down on working class people who choose not to eat from bins, and, as a self-described anti-capitalist, you praise those who choose to eat from bins.



I would say by the large number of people posting about how much free food they manage to get and thus spend money on other things, it clearly is an alternative for some. I've also mentioned it isn't viable for everyone and is not something everyone would be able to do, but you've left that out so you can continue your myopic attack of anything you disagree with.



Yes, it is only possible for a tiny minority to choose to live in such a way. That is my point: it will always be a minority lifestyle, which makes it idiotic that it is advocated as somehow being politically and morally superior by those who take part in it.



I don't know if you noticed or not, but this is a site for leftists. Compare your attacks against the people on this site to the way you constantly apologize for capitalism and you might get it. I wasn't saying that in relation to this post and this post alone.


Answer my question. How is ridiculing 'freeganism' the same thing as attacking leftists if we have already reached an agreement that 'freeganism' has fuck all to do with leftism?



you constantly apologize for capitalism


Either provide evidence for such claims, or don't make them.



The term dumpster diving refers to diving into a dumpster to get food out of it. Anything people want to add to that, they can answer for.

I'm refering to 'dumpster-diving' as it specifically relates to 'freeganism'. And freeganism 'is an anti-consumerist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-consumerism) lifestyle whereby people employ alternative living strategies based on "limited participation in the conventional economy and minimal consumption of resources".' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freeganism)

In other words, bin-dipping in freeganism is a political and lifestyle choice - it is not done as a result of necessity.



Ronald and Margaret would be proud of you. Been paying attention to the news lately?


What in god's name are you going on about? It has become rightwing to oppose the fact that poor people are forced to eat out of trashcans, has it? Are you even concentrating? Do you think before typing?

[Plagueround]

Exactly. You feel that eating out of bins provides an alternative to the 'capitalist mode of living'. In other words, it provides an alternative to capitalism.

It provides an alternative to not always having to engage in that exchange. It does not provide an alternative to the extent that it will collapse capitalism or fight it, but for those that wish to do it, it provides them an opportunity to spend money on other things, eat when they're strapped for cash, or just get some free food.


Again, you are arguing that bin-dipping isn't 'adhering' to capitalism, whereas shopping is.I've made the difference quite clear. Feel free to actually read my posts and then try again.


In other words, you look down on working class people who choose not to eat from bins, and, as a self-described anti-capitalist, you praise those who choose to eat from bins.How could you possibly come to this conclusion when I make it clear that I find this notion backwards and stupid? I don't praise those who choose to eat from dumpsters. I support the notion that they can do that if they want, and that it is not revolting or anti-worker to do so.


Yes, it is only possible for a tiny minority to choose to live in such a way. That is my point: it will always be a minority lifestyle, which makes it idiotic that it is advocated as somehow being politically and morally superior by those who take part in it.I agree. But it doesn't mean you have to look down on everyone who does it. That has been my point all along. Their reasons are varied, but you want to lump everyone, including myself in as elitists.


Answer my question. How is ridiculing 'freeganism' the same thing as attacking leftists if we have already reached an agreement that 'freeganism' has fuck all to do with leftism?Seriously, I'm not going to answer anything you say until you actually address what I am talking about. Go reread my post where I make it clear that your attacks on leftists were not in relation to this thread.


Either provide evidence for such claims, or don't make them.If anyone needs evidence of this, all they need to do is read your posts. Believe me when I say most people on this site think you're a fraud.


I'm refering to 'dumpster-diving' as it specifically relates to 'freeganism'. And freeganism 'is an anti-consumerist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-consumerism) lifestyle whereby people employ alternative living strategies based on "limited participation in the conventional economy and minimal consumption of resources".' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freeganism)Bravo for wikipedia. However, if you were only referring to freeganism as the above definition, you would have no greater problem with people dumpster diving, which you have expressed in this thread.


In other words, bin-dipping in freeganism is a political and lifestyle choice - it is not done as a result of necessity.Ok. So perhaps you could start addressing those that have made a clear distinction between the two instead of talking down to them.


What in god's name are you going on about? It has become rightwing to oppose the fact that poor people are forced to eat out of trashcans, has it? Are you even concentrating? Do you think before typing?The way you phrased that sentence was worded to where it could imply you were against the notion being true, or that you were against it being a neccesity for some. My apologies...when you hear the same rhetoric from someone for so long, the things they say often take on a different form than perhaps they intended.

[Vanguard1917]

It provides an alternative to not always having to engage in that exchange.


Yes, you see it as an alternative to the 'capitalist mode of living'. And since you see this capitalist 'exchange' as being not a good thing, you must logically believe that 'freeganism' is a better way of living, since it is somehow a way of opting out of capitalism.



How could you possibly come to this conclusion when I make it clear that I find this notion backwards and stupid? I don't praise those who choose to eat from dumpsters.


Ah, but you do praise it. You see it as a way to opt out of capitalism (or the 'capitalist mode of living').



Seriously, I'm not going to answer anything you say until you actually address what I am talking about. Go reread my post where I make it clear that your attacks on leftists were not in relation to this thread.



But presumably you see my criticism of freeganism in similar vein. If that's leftism, then i'm simply not a leftist.



If anyone needs evidence of this, all they need to do is read your posts.


That's not providing evidence for your claims, is it?



Bravo for wikipedia. However, if you were only referring to freeganism as the above definition, you would have no greater problem with people dumpster diving, which you have expressed in this thread.



I'm not sure what you mean.



Ok. So perhaps you could start addressing those that have made a clear distinction between the two instead of talking down to them.



I made it very clear from the start that i am criticising the behaviour, assumptions and motivations of those who follow the 'freegan' lifestyle - i.e. the eating out of bins voluntarily as a means to make a political and moral statement.



My apologies

No need for apologies. Just try to pay attention to what is actually being said and try to speculate less about what might be going on in my head. I think the source of your confusion as to my views stems from your unwillingness to seriously consider the arguments i have made. Reflex reactions are best avoided in debates.

[Rascolnikova]

I don't see why it's so difficult to have a distinction between what is useful for individuals in the short term and global socialism, while recognizing value to both.

Personally, I've always felt one should have two political programs; as detailed as possible concept of the ideal, and a program of action on the current conditions based on movement towards that ideal. If freganism reduces the exploitation of those who practice it and gives them more resources with which to participate in class struggle, while at the same time provoking reflectiveness among the politically unaware, it is ethically desirable.

[Liberateeducate]

As someone whose had to steal to eat and go to community centers and soup kitchens for food, I resent the fact people make like some political gesture out of it.
eating out of a dumpster is not something to get highfives for with your buddies, its something no one should be forced to do.

[Revy]

It seems like a good way to survive. Homeless people have been doing it for ages.

It's often done as some kind of political thing, which is rather absurd. Usually nonsense about not participating in the capitalist market as a consumer.