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Dean
15th September 2005, 19:12
Is the final actualization[sic?] of globalization a necessity for a real marxist socialism to occur?

We all know that Marx believed that capitalism was a necessary step in the historical development of economic realities which would eventually create a communist state of things.

Globalization, which is essentially colonialism, involves more people in the oppression of capitalism. I think it follows that this would lead to a more prevalant class consciousness amongst the colonized (note the strong communist movements in india, for example).

The anti-communist sentiments among the populace of the middle east and china are due to soviet oppression and chinese "communist" oppression, respectively. Brazilians attempted to elect a socialist president, though he turned out to be a farce - regardless, this shows us that a majority of Brazilians want egalitarianism to be a strong aspect of their government.

I don't believe that nations which are already heavily socialist must be colonized to achieve this class consciousness - the populace already has some degree of class consciousness, and this ought to be sustained by the oppressive nations' attempts to overthrow popular leaders and economic sanctions which hurt the people of such socialist nations.

What do you think of the notion that globalization is a step in the development of capitalism that must be achieved in non-socialist states before a realistic, global class consciousness can be achieved?

Remember, this isn't specifically about morals, it's about historical development.

Hate Is Art
18th September 2005, 00:17
No doubt Globalization is a new development in Capitilism, brought on by increased communications networks and such.

The challenge for marxists in the 21st Century is going to be to adapt to this relatively unexpecte change and adapt our ideas to suit it. The next big socialist revolution is going to take place in the third world against a globalized, foreign capitilist class.

The empty promises they have made won't last too long.

But I'm not entirely sure what question you're asking so?

JC1
18th September 2005, 00:44
Remember, this isn't specifically about morals, it's about historical development.

Exactly. The Anti-Globalization is dominated by Petit-Bourgoise Peaseants and Small bizniz men who are afraid there property will be threatend by capital.

HOWEVER!

We, as Communist's should oppose "globalization" (witch is in essence, Imperialism without Soviet Anti-Imperialism) with our own program. We should step on the scene and say "Capitalism is proggresing the world, mildly. We Communists can develop a country with a Planned Economy or a Land Reform light years ahead of what Capitalists are willing, or capable, of doing".


The anti-communist sentiments among the populace of the middle east

Are no as big as there made out to be. There are currently Large Communist orginizations in Lebenon (HSL), Israel(CPI), Palistine(PFLP/DFLP), Iraq (WCPI), Kurdistan (WCPI/WCPI, Again), Turkery (Various Org's) Iran, et cet era.

Severian
18th September 2005, 03:23
Originally posted by Digital [email protected] 17 2005, 05:48 PM
No doubt Globalization is a new development in Capitilism, brought on by increased communications networks and such.
I don't agree....well, depending on what you mean. I think the fundamental trend has been present in capitalism from the beginning. The Communist Manifesto talks about it, the tendency to break down all Chinese walls and national boundaries.

What's new is how far the trend has gone, as the economic interconnection of the world increases over time.

It should be emphasized that this is one of the progressive aspects of capitalism, which is increasing the number of wage-workers, the gravediggers of capitalism, all over the world.

Many of the particular fears about globalization are not new either, for example this sounds a lot like the kind of thing Michael Moore writes about the fear of manufacturing disappearing in the U.S.:


little clusters of wealthy aristocrats drawing dividends and pensions from the Far East, with a somewhat larger group of professional retainers and tradesmen and a larger body of personal servants and workers in the transport trade and in the final stages of production of the more perishable goods; all the main arterial industries would have disappeared, the staple foods and manufactures flowing in as tribute from Asia and Africa.

It's from a 1902 book by Hobson, quoted in Imperialism by Lenin. 'Course more than a century later, this hasn't materialize, as Lenin comments, "The author is quite right: if the forces of imperialism had not been counteracted they would have led precisely to what he has described..... We must not, however, lose sight of the forces which counteract imperialism in general, and opportunism in particular, and which, naturally, the social-liberal Hobson is unable to perceive." Forces not limited to the Soviet Union - certainly not limited to the Kremlin bureaucracy, indeed it played the role of imperialism's social-opportunist partner. The USSR didn't even exist yet when Lenin wrote that accurate observation.
The chapter of Imperialism I've been quoting (http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1916/imp-hsc/ch08.htm#v22zz99h-276-GUESS)

Fundamentally, we're still living in the age of imperialism that Lenin described.

So to sum up an answer Dean's original question, I don't necessary think that the "final actualization" of capitalist globalization is a precondition for socialist revolution - indeed I'm not sure that capitalism can completely realize it, that will remain one of the tasks of building socialism and communism...on an international basis, the only way possible.

But I think the further development of capitalist globalization is continuing to build up more and more favorable objective conditions for workers' revolution and socialism. As it has since the origin of capitalism and the world market.

Hate Is Art
18th September 2005, 18:05
I don't agree....well, depending on what you mean. I think the fundamental trend has been present in capitalism from the beginning. The Communist Manifesto talks about it, the tendency to break down all Chinese walls and national boundaries.

What's new is how far the trend has gone, as the economic interconnection of the world increases over time.

I meant globalization on this scale has increased. Things such as the British Empire, the tecnological advance in thing's like the media and comms., telephone, telegraph have all made the world a little bit smaller.

But it was never on the huge scale we have now.


But I think the further development of capitalist globalization is continuing to build up more and more favorable objective conditions for workers' revolution and socialism. As it has since the origin of capitalism and the world market.

Agreed.

KC
18th September 2005, 18:25
Is the final actualization[sic?] of globalization a necessity for a real marxist socialism to occur?

Globalization is a necessity for communism to occur.



Globalization, which is essentially colonialism, involves more people in the oppression of capitalism. I think it follows that this would lead to a more prevalant class consciousness amongst the colonized (note the strong communist movements in india, for example).

The communist movement in India will do nothing but develop capitalism; a world-wide following is needed for a communist revolution to succeed.



The anti-communist sentiments among the populace of the middle east and china are due to soviet oppression and chinese "communist" oppression, respectively. Brazilians attempted to elect a socialist president, though he turned out to be a farce - regardless, this shows us that a majority of Brazilians want egalitarianism to be a strong aspect of their government.

Socialism isn't a society. Rather, it's a transitional phase between capitalism and communism. It isn't expected to last long, and when it is attempted on a long term scale, it usually fails.



I don't believe that nations which are already heavily socialist must be colonized to achieve this class consciousness - the populace already has some degree of class consciousness, and this ought to be sustained by the oppressive nations' attempts to overthrow popular leaders and economic sanctions which hurt the people of such socialist nations.

That depends. Unless capitalism is destroyed while these countries are socialist, then these countries are probably going to return to capitalism anyways.



What do you think of the notion that globalization is a step in the development of capitalism that must be achieved in non-socialist states before a realistic, global class consciousness can be achieved?


I think that's completely true.



The challenge for marxists in the 21st Century is going to be to adapt to this relatively unexpecte change and adapt our ideas to suit it. The next big socialist revolution is going to take place in the third world against a globalized, foreign capitilist class.

No it won't. Only if you want to develop capitalism.



The empty promises they have made won't last too long.


Yes, and people will want a better standard of living. They will demand it. However, if there is a revolution, it will do nothing but create a temporary socialist state, or help the development of capitalism.



We, as Communist's should oppose "globalization" (witch is in essence, Imperialism without Soviet Anti-Imperialism) with our own program. We should step on the scene and say "Capitalism is proggresing the world, mildly. We Communists can develop a country with a Planned Economy or a Land Reform light years ahead of what Capitalists are willing, or capable, of doing".

Globalization isn't something to be "opposed." It is a necessary step in the evolution of capitalism. In fact, globalization should be applauded by communists. Since globalization is an example of the evolution of capitalism, then the faster it happens the sooner capitalism will fall apart. The problem with the system has to be personal for people to want to revolt against capitalism and for communism. The circumstances have to be just right for this to happen. People won't care if you say you can do better; they will care when they need better.

JC1
20th September 2005, 02:48
Globalization is a necessity for communism to occur.

That may have been true in 1917. But most country's that are semi-fuedal/ semi-colonial have a very nice industrial base.


The communist movement in India will do nothing but develop capitalism; a world-wide following is needed for a communist revolution to succeed.

Redstarist Determinism. The Indian prolatariat is strong like steel.



Globalization isn't something to be "opposed." It is a necessary step in the evolution of capitalism. In fact, globalization should be applauded by communists. Since globalization is an example of the evolution of capitalism, then the faster it happens the sooner capitalism will fall apart. The problem with the system has to be personal for people to want to revolt against capitalism and for communism. The circumstances have to be just right for this to happen. People won't care if you say you can do better; they will care when they need better.

Globalization is not happening.

Imperialism is happening. When the deterministic Menshivik's like Redstsar begrudgingly recognizied that Imperialism was marrying Big imperialist Capital with the Latinfundia and liquadating the Natinol Bourgoise, they needed a new engine for development under capitalism. They parroted the hype about "globalization" originaly aired by the librel's who opposed a few new free trade deal's.

In most country's, the materialk condition's exist for socialism. And even where they dont, reveloution is happening (EG Nepal).

tambourine_man
20th September 2005, 04:18
In most country's, the materialk condition's exist for socialism.

this is true, especially if we understand the communist revolution as an international phenomenon.
i do not think that we should applaud globalization, neo-imperialism, as the catalyst for revolution. rather, understand that capitalism is something that can be overcome only through an international effort; an effort that, considering the industrial development of much of the world, renders the notion of distinct national "capacities" to succesfully implement communist policy pretty meaningless.

there were some communists in pre-/nazi germany who believed (by a misinterpretation of the dialectic) that the establishment of a fascist dictatorship would necessarily strengthen the revolutionary spirit of the proletariat by emphasizing class stratification, thereby hastening the victorious revolution. obviously, this did not happen. probably because fascism is a completely negative and destructive force with absolutely no progressive elements. in much the same way, "globalization" at this point in the economic and industrial development of the world is nonessential and very harmful, a completely negative force, and should never be interpreted as necessity, least of all by those on the revolutionary left.

also, excluding kerala (to a certain extent), the communist movement in india is extremely disjointed and scattered, ideologically and geographically. as is the situation in most other poor nations, any communist revolution there would inevitably assume a nationalistic and authoritarian character. so, i emphasize the importance of class unity throughout the world, international action, and permanant revolution.

Severian
20th September 2005, 09:55
Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2005, 09:49 PM
[ rather, understand that capitalism is something that can be overcome only through an international effort; an effort that, considering the industrial development of much of the world, renders the notion of distinct national "capacities" to succesfully implement communist policy pretty meaningless.
Good point; that's a pretty dead-end debate.


there were some communists in pre-/nazi germany who believed (by a misinterpretation of the dialectic) that the establishment of a fascist dictatorship would necessarily strengthen the revolutionary spirit of the proletariat by emphasizing class stratification, thereby hastening the victorious revolution. obviously, this did not happen. probably because fascism is a completely negative and destructive force with absolutely no progressive elements. in much the same way, "globalization" at this point in the economic and industrial development of the world is nonessential and very harmful, a completely negative force, and should never be interpreted as necessity, least of all by those on the revolutionary left.

I'm sorry, but you've given no reason whatsoever to think this is a valid analogy. On the one hand, there's the rise of a frenzied petty-bourgeois mass-movement which completely smashed the workers' organizations and created a totalitarian regime. On the other, there's the objective tendency of capitalism to break down national borders, which has been part of it from the beginning.

What do those two things have in common?

The Garbage Disposal Unit
20th September 2005, 18:33
I really don't think Imperialism is a progressive force at all - it doesn't so much proletarianize masses of people as dispossess and subjegate them. It doesn't lay the groundwork of meaningful development so much as radically skew it. As long as imperialism dominates, development is uneven, the growth of indigenous national bourgeoisies is stunted, and the power of first-world bourgeois hegemony is reinforced.
A meaningful proletarian internationalism requires, undeniably, globalization in an authentic sense (that is, the development of technologies and whatnot of communication and transportation, subsequent secularization, breakdown of borders, etc.) and the defeat of "so-called globalization" (WTO and friends of American global dominance) which only serves to hinder this development.

tambourine_man
21st September 2005, 00:22
I'm sorry, but you've given no reason whatsoever to think this is a valid analogy. On the one hand, there's the rise of a frenzied petty-bourgeois mass-movement which completely smashed the workers' organizations and created a totalitarian regime. On the other, there's the objective tendency of capitalism to break down national borders, which has been part of it from the beginning.

What do those two things have in common?

i only meant to illustrate another instance of certain belief that a totally destructive phenomenon is progressive and necessary, and the consequent outcome.

Sa'd al-Bari
21st September 2005, 00:36
What do you think of the notion that globalization is a step in the development of capitalism that must be achieved in non-socialist states before a realistic, global class consciousness can be achieved?
Globalization in indeed a process in the material development of capitalism. However, it is not a progressive force that communist should see as something to be necessarily achieved. Capitalism has essentially ceased to be a progressive force basically since the dawn of imperialism; it does not necessarily need to reach any higher stage for revolution to become possible. On the other hand, with the fall of the Eastern Bloc, capitalism has opened more markets for exploitation. Concessions made to placate the working class are being removed and the capitalists no longer feel restraint in plundering the world at will. A new more “naked” imperialism has meant that nations who try to harbor their resources for their own purposes or fail to fall in line with the interests of the imperialist are subject to being targeted extremely violently. This heightened struggle and openly aggressive imperialism will create a more revolutionary atmosphere this century than what was seen in the past.

“Globalization” is a symptom of this imperialist development, a highly repressive one continues the exploitation of the working class on a global scale and continues the flow of capital away from the third world and into the main imperialist countries. The working class opposes this and communists should stand behind them in their opposition. In that way we will be supportive of proletarian class interests. Globalization, along with imperialism and capitalism in general, is something we need to stand behind the proletariat in and smash

Severian
26th September 2005, 01:58
Originally posted by Sa'd al-[email protected] 20 2005, 06:07 PM
Capitalism has essentially ceased to be a progressive force basically since the dawn of imperialism; it does not necessarily need to reach any higher stage for revolution to become possible.
True...but there are economic processes happening that make conditions more favorable for proletarian revolutions. The expansion of the working class worldwide, for one obvious example.


On the other hand, with the fall of the Eastern Bloc, capitalism has opened more markets for exploitation.

Has it? They're not exactly experiencing a profit bonanza in the former Soviet-bloc countries, going by the state of the world economy since. And especially the stagnation of the German economy - German capitalists have invested the most in the former Soviet bloc, along with swallowing the GDR.

Instead, as you point out...


Concessions made to placate the working class are being removed

Which is something that typically happens during period of economic difficulty.


and the capitalists no longer feel restraint in plundering the world at will. A new more “naked” imperialism has meant that nations who try to harbor their resources for their own purposes or fail to fall in line with the interests of the imperialist are subject to being targeted extremely violently.

Which never happened before?

Nope, Washington's increased use of military force is driven by two things: One, other means fail it more often, due to the instability of its client regimes, and because it no longer has the possibility of getting the USSR to influence its clients and franchise CPs in order to resolve "regional conflicts". Two, increased conflict and rivalry with other advanced capitalist powers. Both reflect the weakness, not increased strength, of imperialism.


“Globalization” is a symptom of this imperialist development, a highly repressive one continues the exploitation of the working class on a global scale and continues the flow of capital away from the third world and into the main imperialist countries.

Seems like different people are using that word "globalization" to mean different things. Which you gotta expect, since it's a vague term, probably invented by somebody who didn't even claim to be Marxist.

I'm using it fairly literally, to describe a trend older than the imperialist period. Some others are using it as an alias for imperialism....in which case, why use a new term?

I'm guessing from context you're using it to describe certain policies and agreements being pushed by some imperialists under the banner of "free trade." OK, the globalization buzzward was invented in the context of opposing those trade policies, so that's probably the most common meaning. I think this does reflect a certain political fuzziness, though.


The working class opposes this and communists should stand behind them in their opposition.

To say someone "opposes globalization" conceals more than it reveals about their political stand. What are they for?

Many workers in Latin America, for example, oppose the "free trade" agreements because they expand imperialist economic domination of their countries, while allowing the imperialists to retain significant import barriers again Latin American products. Workers and trade unions in Latin America have raised demands against those import barriers. The most progressive forces in Latin America have promoted regional trade blocs, which do not include the imperialist countries, as an alternative. This is a form of anti-imperialist resistance.

In contrast, many workers in the U.S., and certainly the union officialdom, oppose the "free trade" agreements for the opposite reason: to save "American jobs" for "American workers". They may oppose the same things, but what they are for is opposite.

This stand has nothing to do with the interests of the world working class, or certainly class struggle! On the contrary, it involves defending the interests of sections of the U.S. capitalist class. The United Steelworkers of America has been "opposing globalization" through a joint campaign with the main steel companies to save "our companies" and "our industry" by means of import barriers. This provides the steel companies with the cover to blame imports and foreign competition as they weasel out of their pension obligations and screw thousands of retirees...which little opposition from the USWA officialdom.

It also converges with the "economic nationalist" demagogy of wannabe Fuherers like Patrick Buchanan. He kicked off his last presidential campaign at a meeting hosted by the Independent Steelworkers Union in Weirton, PA, a steelmaking town. Those who support protectionism in the name of opposing globalization, are clearing the way for ultrarightist demagogy.

I might comment, incidentally, that despite widespread protectionist sentiment among U.S. workers, neither the labor officialdom nor anyone else has ever been very successful in mobilizing that sentiment in action.

As far as the trade policies of imperialist countries, the stand Karl Marx laid out is still valid today. After pointing out that workers will "go to the wall" under either protectionism or free trade, he said:
But, in general, the protective system of our day is conservative, while the free trade system is destructive. It breaks up old nationalities and pushes the antagonism of the proletariat and the bourgeoisie to the extreme point. In a word, the free trade system hastens the social revolution. It is in this revolutionary sense alone, gentlemen, that I vote in favor of free trade.

(Of course, agreements like NAFTA do not in fact implement free trade; numerous protectionist measures are retained.)

Additionally, we should solidarize with the oppressed countries and the workers of those countries, by demanding the abolition of all trade barriers against their imports in the imperialist countries.

In the semicolonial countries, in contrast, protectionist measures can be a necessary part of resisting imperialist economic domination and developing national industries. Regional trade blocs can also be progressive for this reason.