Flying the Stars and Stripes

[rachstev]

Dark Exodus has asked me to expound on why I fly the Stars and Stripes at my home. It wasn't part of the discussion I had previously started, and I eventually decided to discuss the matter. So please remember, this was a request and not some conceit at needing to hear my own, dreary pontification.

Also, I don't see it as much of a debate. I don't believe the presentation of colors at my home is somehthing that will encourage others to think it is good or bad or change their minds.

In presenting the colors of the Stars and Stripes I am not trying to persuade anyone about anything. It is a deeply personal statement. I suppose because it is such an open declaration, there must be some conceit behind my actions, and I accept the duality, that it is both personal and a source of pride.

First of all, I like it. It think it's a beautiful flag. Understand a lot of this is emotion, so don't be upset if I respond with some emotion. There are, no doubt, things in your life to which you attach emotion, because they represent something deeply personal to you. I have never been a "thing" oriented person (ironically, I believe I could practice communism much easier than most who support it, because I am not a materialistic person...and most of my possessions get in the way anyways.) But, I look at the portrait of my family, a picture of an old lover, or see children play in their innocence, and it makes me happy. I have also had emotional reactions to political things. The scene in Casablanca when the whole of the cafe sings the French National Anthem, my visit to the Lincoln Memorial both bring me to tears.

So this must be taken into account as well, that a thing can remind me of something beautiful, and I can react to it.

Next, remember that I have only MY viewpoint to appreciate. So, perhaps there are people who feel the same symbol is one of a negative feeling. No doubt Nazis hate looking at the Stars and Stripes just as I am repelled by a schaztica (sorry about the spelling). I don't pretend the S & S is a symbol that makes everyone happy, though I'm sure it does tens of millions of people; perhaps hundreds of millions.

But, Dark Exodus, we're speaking of ME, and why I fly it, as that was your question.

I suppose it represents to me such freedom in a world history dominated by such immense oppression. Most people I know are glad they are in a nation which has such freedoms, which has a Bill of Rights, which has the ability to openly form associations (a VITAL right; sometimes more important than freedom of speech), that lead the world to destroy pure evil in the 1940's. One of our greatest led us to a newer and better freedom in the 1960's, and like so many other Americans before him, King paid the ultimate price for his leadership. His work breathed new life into the 14th Amendment; another beautiful statement.

I am not blind to our (the U.S.) shortcomings and wrongness we have done. But the only proof that I have that our good outweighs the bad is that there has been no mass exodus (no pun on your name) from the United States, but quite the reverse. Millions of people are trying to come here.

In fact, the last real, national exodus I can remember was the leaving of the eastern section of Berlin for the western section. It is interesting that all of the people who lived under a great socialist state (will everyone on this board please stop telling me Soviet-type naitons were not socialist...I know; I know; you all have a narrow and pure design of what socialism is and East Germany didn't measure up to it.) did not then go to Western Germany and press it to become more like it was, but wanted instead under reunification to be like the West.

I'm sure if there were any kind of revolution movement in, oh, let's say the U.K., there would be some colors that everyone could follow. And "after" the revolution, when you walked up the Party headquarters, and told them it was time to retire colors, because the revolution was won, and it was now time for the state to wither away, they would (after privately laughing to themselves that there was a naive purest before them) tell you that the revolution was not over, and that there were still many battles to fight, which was why you couldn't have direct democracy "just yet"; or trasparency in the government structure "just yet"; or the electricity turn on "just yet".

I look forward to later in my life, when, as so many here have commented, the flag will look differently. I agree. It will have more than 50 stars.


Rachstev

[PRC-UTE]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2005, 06:13 PM
In fact, the last real, national exodus I can remember was the leaving of the eastern section of Berlin for the western section. It is interesting that all of the people who lived under a great socialist state (will everyone on this board please stop telling me Soviet-type naitons were not socialist...I know; I know; you all have a narrow and pure design of what socialism is and East Germany didn't measure up to it.) did not then go to Western Germany and press it to become more like it was, but wanted instead under reunification to be like the West.
Of course west Germany had all that hoarded gold the nazis stashed before their surrender to rebuild their country with, whereas the DDR had far less capital to work with.

I read a poll not long ago that a clear majority in east Germany wanted socialism but thought it should be handled differently than before.


I look forward to later in my life, when, as so many here have commented, the flag will look differently. I agree. It will have more than 50 stars.




Would that 51st Star be Engarland or Canada? :lol: Just messin

[rachstev]

Finally some humor from one of you sad-sacks! OglachMcGlinchey made me laugh. (Get a new name, please!)


Of course west Germany had all that hoarded gold the nazis stashed before their surrender to rebuild their country with, whereas the DDR had far less capital to work with.

Yeah, but Eastern Germany kept all of the cool scientists, and Auric Goldfiger got most of the stuff anyway.



I read a poll not long ago that a clear majority in east Germany wanted socialism but thought it should be handled differently than before.

EVERYONE ON THE PLANET wants socialism, but just wants it to be handled differently.


QUOTE
I look forward to later in my life, when, as so many here have commented, the flag will look differently. I agree. It will have more than 50 stars.

Would that 51st Star be Engarland or Canada? Just messin


What in hell is "Engarland?" And not Canada. If we wanted another bunch of drunks to make up a new state we'd simply to Mississippi twice.

[Amusing Scrotum]

Yeah, but Eastern Germany kept all of the cool scientists, and Auric Goldfiger got most of the stuff anyway.

Huh.
America got far more of the best scientists. For example, Von Braun who headed NASA's Apollo program was an honourary member of the SS. In his factory in WW2 hundreds of thousands of Jews died, working as slaves building rockets in his underground factory. The American Government overlooked his War Crimes, hypocrites, and gave him status and money.
Americas invovlement in WW2 is incredibly dubious, they joined very late, why? To gain the spoils of victory.
Also if you think America at that time had a moral reason towards joining the war, regarding racism, in particular anti-Semitism. Ask yourself, if this was the case, why was there still segregation in America?



EVERYONE ON THE PLANET wants socialism, but just wants it to be handled differently.

Pat Robertson doesn't. ;)


What in hell is "Engarland?" And not Canada. If we wanted another bunch of drunks to make up a new state we'd simply to Mississippi twice.

You can have England. Here in Wales we'd be quite happy if all of Middle England buggered off to America. Anyway, Americas already got most of South America. Don't be greedy.

[FleasTheLemur]

Even me being a Red, you have to agree that some things about America have 'worked'. The Bill of Rights, for example, is one of the finest example of this. Of course, it's the context of all this. Whom had most of the rights until 60 or so years go? Who controls the rights today? Are elected officals truely representive of the population that elected them? Do corporations hold most of the cards?

I'll be the first to agree, The U$A, despite it's short comings, is still the best over-all country on Earth. Of course, this isn't saying much. Have you looked at Earth lately? The majority of it overwhelming sucks. Big time. Is American captialism doing something? Only exploting them for their gain. Is the nations of the world doing something? Only supporting the capitalist.

I like to think of capitalism as kind of a prision... people being forced into to an unfulling faith against their will. No matter how good a prison is, how comfortible it is how nice the guards are.. it's still a prision. You're still being kept against your will.

Captialism is like that. A slight of hand oppression by second-rate magicians, just enough confuse the masses. When a curious bystander asks what's going on, our magicians-polticians proclaim, "It's America, baby! Shut the hell up and be patriotic!"

Is capitalism against the working class? Let me just give a history lesson. The reforms that FDR called for in the 1930s let off a huge stink on Wall Street. Many worried what ol' FDR would do the the corporations of the time. The solution? The military coup, ousting FDR and replacing him with a more capitalist friendly, facist dictator. All they had to do was find a general with tons of experience. They did find one (I forget this name), but he wasn't willing to do it and turned some of the conspiritors in.

I have no idea where I was going with this. But I'm glad I typed it all.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

The Bill of Rights, for example, is one of the finest example of this. Of course, it's the context of all this. Whom had most of the rights until 60 or so years go? Who controls the rights today?

What "rights?" Bourgeois right??


I'll be the first to agree, The U$A, despite it's short comings, is still the best over-all country on Earth.

:rolleyes:

[Amusing Scrotum]

I'll be the first to agree, The U$A, despite it's short comings, is still the best over-all country on Earth.

What?

:o

[rachstev]

I'll be the first to agree, The U$A, despite it's short comings, is still the best over-all country on Earth.


You heard him, Armchair, that's what he said. Deal with it!

[Commie Girl]

The U$A, despite it's short comings, is still the best over-all country on Earth

:lol: :lol: :lol: Thank you for my laugh of the day!

[Amusing Scrotum]

I'll be the first to agree, The U$A, despite it's short comings, is still the best over-all country on Earth.


You heard him, Armchair, that's what he said. Deal with it!

The following list is of countries which I consider far better than the US -

Britain, France, Germany, Sweden, Denmark, Finland, Holland, Spain, Belgium, Switzerland, Austria, Luxemburg, and Canada.

It is in no particualr order.

Please tell me how the US is better than any of these? Other than of course the obvious reason, that the US is richer.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

No doubt Nazis hate looking at the Stars and Stripes just as I am repelled by a schaztica (sorry about the spelling).

Oh yeah? Ever heard of the American Nazi Party? (http://www.americannaziparty.com/) They love the "stars and bars" just as much as you! In fact they fly it in all their public appearances! So do most other neo-nazi groups! So does the KKK!


I am not blind to our (the U.S.) shortcomings and wrongness we have done. But the only proof that I have that our good outweighs the bad is that there has been no mass exodus (no pun on your name) from the United States, but quite the reverse.

"Good outweighs the bad?"

What outweighs the genocide of 8 million Native Americans and theft of their land, enslavement of millions of Africans, followed by segregation, followed by continued discrimination, use of chinese laborers at slave labor rates to construct the rail road system, attack by the military of unarmed men, women and children involved in workers strikes, hundreds of interventions in other countries, assassinations of world leaders, theft of a large portion of Mexico's land, colonization of Puerto Rico, the Philippines, Hawaii, Cuba, etc. etc. etc.


Millions of people are trying to come here.

You'll have that when a country built on stolen land using slave slavor steals the material resources of the rest of the world and uses them to make itself the richest country on earth. The motives of most immigrants are purely economical..


Americas invovlement in WW2 is incredibly dubious, they joined very late, why? To gain the spoils of victory.
Also if you think America at that time had a moral reason towards joining the war, regarding racism, in particular anti-Semitism. Ask yourself, if this was the case, why was there still segregation in America?

Anyone that has the slightest knowledge of ww2 history [so most americans are out] knows it was the Red Army that defeated the fascists.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Please tell me how the US is better than any of these? Other than of course the obvious reason, that the US is richer.

That can't even be used fairly. The U.S. has some of the widest gaps of disparity between race and class in the world!

[Amusing Scrotum]

That can't even be used fairly. The U.S. has some of the widest gaps of disparity between race and class in the world!

I meant in terms of the total wealth of the country as a whole.

[rachstev]

Be nice, Commie Girl when posting on my threads!

That's two point for me:

First, that you are WAY out of line in your not accepting America being the best country;

Second, that you didn't respond to my post on your "Keep your hands on my child", or what ever that was.

Be nice, or we'll make your home our 51st through 60th states. (Not all provinces will be accepted, you see.)

Rachstev

[Amusing Scrotum]

Be nice, Commie Girl when posting on my threads!

Your thread? :angry:


First, that you are WAY out of line in your not accepting America being the best country;

Well sell America to me then. What is so great about America?


Be nice, or we'll make your home our 51st through 60th states. (Not all provinces will be accepted, you see.)

I'll swap you, New York for Wales. Seems a fair deal to me. :lol:

[Commie Girl]

:lol: Not many people in the world will accept that the U$ is the best country....see the following post, I DO agree with this


Britain, France, Germany, Sweden, Denmark, Finland, Holland, Spain, Belgium, Switzerland, Austria, Luxemburg, and Canada.

unless your criteria is best at murder.

We dont have to be nice, you are restricted to OI and Canada is by far a better country to live in, people here DO NOT want to be a part of the U$, so I guess you will still only have 50 states.

I will check out your reply in No child left behind thread.

[rachstev]

Armchair:

Of course MY thread; I'm a capitalist, that's what we do, declare everything to be owned by us.

[Amusing Scrotum]

Of course MY thread; I'm a capitalist, that's what we do, declare everything to be owned by us.

What happened to the moderate progressive of a few days ago?

[rachstev]

Commie girl,

How can you say that not many people consider the United States of America to be the best country.

Millions of people each year are not trying to enter the nations you mentioned on your list. Actually, I have nothing against Canada. It is, I'm sure, a fine place. But ideology aside, people vote first with their feet. And more people try to nationalize as U.S. citizens than Canada.

This has never been argued against to my satisfaction on this board. I doubt you will be able to do so either.

We'll just leave it at my being right and your being wrong.

Rachstev

[rachstev]

Armchair,

Um....

I was only joking.

R.

[Amusing Scrotum]

I was only joking.

So was I. Humour seems to be lost over the internet.

Though you still haven't sold the "American Way" to me.

[FleasTheLemur]

Alright. In my defense... I used to be Libertarian until six months ago.. and then I moved to the other square.

However, I regret nothing and I will back my statements.


Originally posted by Me+--> (Me)The Bill of Rights, for example, is one of the finest example of this. Of course, it's the context of all this. Whom had most of the rights until 60 or so years go? Who controls the rights today?[/b]

Then...


Originally posted by [email protected]

What "rights?" Bourgeois right??

Exactly. Current American rights are too 'flexible'. If attempt to use your rights against the government, it's stick-time then probably jail time. If you notice, I said "Who controls the rights' today?" That answer would be NOT the worker, but the Bourgeois.

Notice! Despite the fact that they're intpreted on the whim of overpayed cappie judges and racists cops, they're still damn good rights. I know that if I ran a socialist state, I'd want my citizens to be able to speak freely, assemble freely, vote freely (with no gaddamn poltical parties this time!), take up arms and fight my government if politicans abused it (They won't while I'm alive!) and hold fair, honest and speedy trials with no chance of being charged for the same crime twice. Good rights, but twisted and distorted by the oppressors.

Let's do another.


Me
I'll be the first to agree, The U$A, despite it's short comings, is still the best over-all country on Earth.

Even I agree that this probably wasn't put in the orginal context I ment it to be. I should have dropped 'despite it's short comings'. But I can't take back what I typed.

If you noticed, the VERY NEXT thing I typed was "That isn't saying much." I think of American 'supremecy' this way; It's like being the winner of a shit-eating contest. You may have won first price, but you're still a shit eater. Of course, I bias for the U$A as opposed to other nations may come from the fact I live in Applachia and Applachia is apart of America.

If Applachia region was annexed by Canada, then Canada would become number one. Of course, what would REALLY be nice is the Socialist Republic of Applachia... Couldn't you imagine a military consisting of people wearing coon-skin army caps with a little red star on them and yelling "Montani semper liberi" as the charged villiantly into battle against the American, captialist oppressors. Hell, being from the Applachian region, I'm treated like a foreginer when I visit "America". I was literally in culture shock when I seen my first true sububria. If you want a history of poverty and explotation, look no further than the moutants I call home. It almost reminds one of 1940's Cuba...

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2005, 09:50 PM
Commie girl,

How can you say that not many people consider the United States of America to be the best country.

Millions of people each year are not trying to enter the nations you mentioned on your list. Actually, I have nothing against Canada. It is, I'm sure, a fine place. But ideology aside, people vote first with their feet. And more people try to nationalize as U.S. citizens than Canada.

This has never been argued against to my satisfaction on this board. I doubt you will be able to do so either.

We'll just leave it at my being right and your being wrong.

Rachstev
The funny part is that the guy ignores my whole post.

The funnier part is that he tries to deny that there is are many, many people who want to immigrate to the countries previously mentioned.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Notice! Despite the fact that they're intpreted on the whim of overpayed cappie judges and racists cops, they're still damn good rights. I know that if I ran a socialist state, I'd want my citizens to be able to speak freely, assemble freely, vote freely (with no gaddamn poltical parties this time!), take up arms and fight my government if politicans abused it (They won't while I'm alive!) and hold fair, honest and speedy trials with no chance of being charged for the same crime twice. Good rights, but twisted and distorted by the oppressors.

1. If you "ran" a state, it wouldn't be socialist.

2. Most of the "rights" you mentioned are "bourgeois rights." You are abstracting them from material reality (class society).

[rachstev]

Companero De Liberated,

I'm sorry. I wasn't ignoring your post. It's just been a heluva day. You wouldn't believe it. God, it would be nice to be a socialist every now and then. No worries.

I'll get around to reading and rebutting to whatever you wrote,

Rachstev

[Commie Girl]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2005, 07:10 PM
Companero De Liberated,

I'm sorry. I wasn't ignoring your post. It's just been a heluva day. You wouldn't believe it. God, it would be nice to be a socialist every now and then. No worries.

I'll get around to reading and rebutting to whatever you wrote,

Rachstev
:lol: I havent had this many laughs in a loooong time. Yes, we socialists have noooo worries! This guy is way better than any of the other cappies around!

[rachstev]

Overpaid cappie judges. This place busts me up. What a riot. You should all write for the next Woody Allen picture, "There's Nothing Wrong with Banging Your Step-Daughter, As Long As You Work for the Masses."

Ok, Comenero De Whatever,

Just for kicks, where do you live?

But to the point, you seem to be obsessed with this Indian lands issue.

I don't think the Indians owned any lands, generally speaking. For the most part (the vast majority) they were disgustied by the idea of land ownership, an English concept that our Colonial forebares brought over with them. The Europeans didn't treat them fairly, that's for sure, and tried to kill off a good number of them, but I could make a good case for the idea, even through socialist arguments, that land should be open to all.

You won't get any support of slavery from me. It was the worst thing for the southern states. Set them back a full 70 years compared to the states where slavery was outlawed.

On this issue of slavery: Portugese and Spanish enslaved for hundreds of years. As an institution, various states of the United States had slave codes for about 90 years. I've always found it wildly irresponsible to only focus on slavery in the United States, and let everyone else from the Ancient Egyptians and Romans all the way to the 1800's Europeans off the hook. Until very recently, the past 10 years, the world's largest slave colonies were the People's Republic of China and the Soviet Union. And don't even get me started on North Korea. And your comment about the Russians, who suffered the most by the Germans, no argument there, mainly fighting the facists. Oh my God do you live in la-la land.

Where did you go to school? People's Brainwashing Academy?

So what are you going to do about all of this American hatred you have? Where are you and with what army are you coming? What's your grand scheme anyway?

I wrote this post because someone named Black Exodus wanted to know why I flew the Stars and Stripes. If you read my response you can perhaps understand if, even if you disagree. So what's your problem with it. We have different points of view. You coming over to tear it down from my pole? What are you gonna do about it? What's your grand plan? Commie Girl's moving to Cuba. Is that your big play?

Rachstev

[rachstev]

Commie Girl, are you still around? Thought you were leaving to Havana by now.

R.

[FleasTheLemur]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2005, 12:38 AM

Notice! Despite the fact that they're intpreted on the whim of overpayed cappie judges and racists cops, they're still damn good rights. I know that if I ran a socialist state, I'd want my citizens to be able to speak freely, assemble freely, vote freely (with no gaddamn poltical parties this time!), take up arms and fight my government if politicans abused it (They won't while I'm alive!) and hold fair, honest and speedy trials with no chance of being charged for the same crime twice. Good rights, but twisted and distorted by the oppressors.

1. If you "ran" a state, it wouldn't be socialist.

2. Most of the "rights" you mentioned are "bourgeois rights." You are abstracting them from material reality (class society).
1.) Good point, though there is going be a figure head this new true socialist country, at least until the people realize that they're in control. This isn't so much a political debate as a sociologist/psychologist debate. Even if the government was based on only an assembly, an individual is going to stand out more than other in that assembly and people are going to relate to him/her more so. Of course, the point of the socialist government is to move the proles away from that kind of thinking.

2.) Again, good point. These rights ARE abstract and thus are up for manipulation by the Bourgeois and we need "material rights" to make everyone truely equal all around. However, one of the key reasons the USSR failed is because people was not allowed to voice their displeasure with the corrupt Stalinist state until it was so late in the game that people equated personal freedoms with the monster that is Capitalism We need to insure that people are equal on all fronts.

[FleasTheLemur]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2005, 01:29 AM
Overpaid cappie judges. This place busts me up. What a riot. You should all write for the next Woody Allen picture, "There's Nothing Wrong with Banging Your Step-Daughter, As Long As You Work for the Masses."

(Snipped to save space)
Can you hold a debate without reverting to cutdowns?

[rachstev]

I was putting down Woddy Allen and making a joke at his expense. Please have a thicker skin and a sense of humor. You're going to fight for a revolution one day. It's going to get ugly. Be able to laugh at yourself.

R

[Mujer Libre]

Flying your country's flag at your house iseems so silly to me. I mean, yeah we all know what country we're in. :o
And to me it would just remind me of a country fonded on the disposession of indigenous peoples. (I live in Australia, and I maintain that we're destined to become the 51st state)

I also want to reiterate what someone earlier said about East Germans not being so impressed with the West. I've heard accounts of people who, when the wall fell, went to the West, bought some stuff... weren't impressed and went home.

Also, many migrants (from my experience particularly Indian ones) don't go to the US because they like the country at all. It's just an opportunity for them to work, make some money and go home. They aren't starry-eyed at the prospect at a new life in te US, where the streets are paved with gold.


I don't think the Indians owned any lands, generally speaking. For the most part (the vast majority) they were disgustied by the idea of land ownership, an English concept that our Colonial forebares brought over with them. The Europeans didn't treat them fairly, that's for sure, and tried to kill off a good number of them, but I could make a good case for the idea, even through socialist arguments, that land should be open to all.
I thought the concept of Terra Nullius had ended at the Mabo decision... :rolleyes:
(Ok, that's an Australian event, but it applies)
Just because a Western, individualistic notion of land tenure didn't exist does NOT mean people did not own or have a relationship with the land. I'd assume that the idea was the land 'belonged' to the group occupying it and that they could all use it, not just one individual. I don't have a problem with that at all.

[Reds]

God bless America...

[Martin Blank]

Reading rachstev's comments on the Stars and Stripes, I am very much reminded of the way that the average war veteran thinks of the flag they fought under -- a very emotional, almost visceral, reaction. For them, it is not so much that they see it as their country's flag, as they see it as their flag. This is where the personal aspect, like rachstev talks about, comes in. It represents what they fought for, not what their government fought for.

I have heard this a lot when talking with veterans -- even politically conscious ones. On an intellectual level, they may reject the U.S. flag as the symbol of imperialist hubris and aggression, but there is always that contradiction of an emotional attachment. While they may reject the flag, they will not "disrespect" it. And the odds are that their coffin will be draped in the Stars and Stripes -- their Stars and Stripes.

(Students of U.S. history also see this, for example, among veterans of the Confederate armies during the Civil War. Many rank-and-file veterans of the Armies of Lee, Johnston, Bragg, Hood, etc., came to reject the reasons and motivations for secession and the founding of the CSA -- including slavery. And yet, many of those same Confederate veterans requested they be buried under the Stars and Bars -- the Confederate "First National" -- or Starry Cross -- the Confederate battle flag.)

Miles

[Elect Marx]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2005, 12:13 PM
Also, I don't see it as much of a debate. I don't believe the presentation of colors at my home is somehthing that will encourage others to think it is good or bad or change their minds.
I would have a much lower opinion of you, just seeing jingoist banners.


In presenting the colors of the Stars and Stripes I am not trying to persuade anyone about anything. It is a deeply personal statement. I suppose because it is such an open declaration, there must be some conceit behind my actions, and I accept the duality, that it is both personal and a source of pride.

Pride in what? What is so personal about a flag concept implemented before you where born? Why would you make an "open declaration" if you were not "trying to persuade anyone about anything?" Obviously you want to affect others in some way.


First of all, I like it. It think it's a beautiful flag.

The Nazi flag has a nice aesthetic to it as well, as does the confederate navel jack flag people like to fly. Really; less people suffered under the influence of those flags; perhaps you should take their "beauty" into consideration? <_<


Understand a lot of this is emotion, so don&#39;t be upset if I respond with some emotion.

On a message board the best you can do is use "Smilies," though your emotions always influence your content; hopefully your text will have rational thought behind it.


I have never been a "thing" oriented person (ironically, I believe I could practice communism much easier than most who support it, because I am not a materialistic person...and most of my possessions get in the way anyways.)

I have heard leftist make such statements about material possession before. How can you make such a generalization about communists? I&#39;m still waiting for the statistical analysis of the domestic communist.


But, I look at the portrait of my family, a picture of an old lover, or see children play in their innocence, and it makes me happy. I have also had emotional reactions to political things.

Are you complaining the people most dear to you to a symbol rooted in a history of needless suffering and bloodshed?


The scene in Casablanca when the whole of the cafe sings the French National Anthem, my visit to the Lincoln Memorial both bring me to tears.

Why?


So this must be taken into account as well, that a thing can remind me of something beautiful, and I can react to it.

If only all people did but some look at others and see profit, the chance to facilitate their predatory social dominance. To many of them, death is beautiful enough, when their wallets grow accordingly.


Next, remember that I have only MY viewpoint to appreciate.

Can you not empathize with others? Obviously you were interested enough in what others though to post this thread.


So, perhaps there are people who feel the same symbol is one of a negative feeling.

Yes; the US flag symbolized the efforts of bigots, rapists, robbers, slave-owners and murderers. Who are you relating to of these people?


I don&#39;t pretend the S & S is a symbol that makes everyone happy, though I&#39;m sure it does tens of millions of people; perhaps hundreds of millions.

Heroin can make you happy and antifreeze tastes quite good too... mmm death.
If only we could stare at our glorious flag 24-7 we would all be so happy&#33;
If this makes you happy, perhaps you need to consider those suffering because of the regime that has carried your glorious flag. Life as livestock is great until you are the one butchered.


I suppose it represents to me such freedom in a world history dominated by such immense oppression.

Ah, like the freedom the Native American people had? How about the people brought forcibly from Africa; how have they enjoyed their liberation? Perhaps the people in Mexico enjoyed the freedom of dying because they wanted to live where their ancestors did? Women have also enjoyed having the freedom of being property, much like how children have had almost as much freedom as your household appliances... hmm, so many historical freedoms. Remember how communists have been free to struggle for a classless society?


Most people I know are glad they are in a nation which has such freedoms, which has a Bill of Rights,

Are they? Do most people even know the Bill of Rights?


which has the ability to openly form associations (a VITAL right; sometimes more important than freedom of speech)

Exactly; this is why communists haven’t been persecuted, why leftist materials/groups haven&#39;t been policed and why protesters, as well as active organizers are never kidnapped, imprisoned or murdered for exercising their rights.


that lead the world to destroy pure evil in the 1940&#39;s.

Right but until the US was attacked, the "pure evil" was a viable trading partner and for some reason those pesky Jews kept trying to get into our country...


One of our greatest led us to a newer and better freedom in the 1960&#39;s, and like so many other Americans before him, King paid the ultimate price for his leadership. His work breathed new life into the 14th Amendment; another beautiful statement.


An interesting coincidence was that he was becoming more radical and anti-imperialist before his assassination.


I am not blind to our (the U.S.) shortcomings and wrongness we have done. But the only proof that I have that our good outweighs the bad is that there has been no mass exodus (no pun on your name) from the United States, but quite the reverse. Millions of people are trying to come here.

So because people are coming for the wealth the US is importing from the rest of the world, that means the "good outweighs the bad?" :huh:


In fact, the last real, national exodus I can remember was the leaving of the eastern section of Berlin for the western section. It is interesting that all of the people who lived under a great socialist state (will everyone on this board please stop telling me Soviet-type naitons were not socialist...I know; I know; you all have a narrow and pure design of what socialism is and East Germany didn&#39;t measure up to it.) did not then go to Western Germany and press it to become more like it was, but wanted instead under reunification to be like the West.

This is quite a ramble; could you please make a coherent point? People have rallied together for fascist regimes time and time again; does that validate them?


I&#39;m sure if there were any kind of revolution movement in, oh, let&#39;s say the U.K., there would be some colors that everyone could follow. And "after" the revolution, when you walked up the Party headquarters, and told them it was time to retire colors, because the revolution was won, and it was now time for the state to wither away, they would (after privately laughing to themselves that there was a naive purest before them) tell you that the revolution was not over, and that there were still many battles to fight, which was why you couldn&#39;t have direct democracy "just yet"; or trasparency in the government structure "just yet"; or the electricity turn on "just yet".

Yes; making us stories is fun but this has no bearing on reality.


I look forward to later in my life, when, as so many here have commented, the flag will look differently. I agree. It will have more than 50 stars.

Great&#33; new flags to burn.

[rachstev]

CommunistLeague wrote a very valid point about our citizens. It is very queer about us:

We have a very long history or respecting and distrusting our government. Our Republic&#39;s early discussions by the Framers of the Constitution had the same issues as well, in their arguing over just how powerful the federal, central authority should be.

230 years later, it&#39;s still an issue.

For us, it is very comfortable to have these same views.

And yes, naturally, when one fights for the United States, and the flag, no doubt it becomes a personal achievement for them, in THEIR flag.

But we have not had a time of great unity in a long time, and America has become polarized, though the group on the "left" of course, is an American left, and nothing like many European "left" points of view.

I don&#39;t know all that much about European style, but in the U.S., most, certainly not all, ultra-left movements become folded into the greater Democratic Party, if they wish to be effective. Perhaps one day they will fare better.

Personally, I agree with Washington, that the nation be best served by no parties, and our Constitution doesn&#39;t mention them.

One of the weirder things from our 1780&#39;s past, is that, when it comes to elections, we vote as states, and all rights of voting is through the states. Amending our Constitution is VERY difficult, as it was meant to be.

313C7 iVi4RX (Good lord, what does all that mean?)

You wrote a very detailed and intelligent discussion, and it will take me a while to respond. thank you for your time and patience.

Rachstev

[Ownthink]

"313C7 iVi4RX (Good lord, what does all that mean?)"

That&#39;s Elect Marx for all you non-leet speakers.




Pwnd.

[rachstev]

Owlthink, thanks for the heads up on the language.

Elect Marx-guy ("313C7 iVi4RX), here&#39;s 1/2 of a response from what you wrote:

I would have a much lower opinion of you, just seeing jingoist banners.

Well, you may have a low opinion of me anyways. I spoil my family something awful, and raise my children to honor their country and be proud they are Americans. We actually have several flags, and recently flied a large California Bear Flag in honor of Admission’s Day. (I suppose Nebraska has some similar holiday). There’s even a Columbus Day Flag (that is, there is a Ferdinand y Isabela banner), and I suppose you probably think that’s Native American Genocide Day, or some such. Anyway, we have fun with the ones from the Revolutionary Wartime. The kids like them. My other faults is that I like to gamble on sports, drink large amounts when I’m not around my family, gamble on the sports book, and smoke cigars. But I’m there for my family and friends, and would do anything for them. But, like I said, I have my faults, and displaying the jingosit banner is the least of them.

Pride in what? What is so personal about a flag concept implemented before you where born? Why would you make an "open declaration" if you were not "trying to persuade anyone about anything?" Obviously you want to affect others in some way.

Well, I think I mentioned that I accept my duality about this, that though it is a personal statement, there must be some conceit there. As I said, it’s a duality I just have to accept. And it’s about what the flag stands for to me, which, as I have read lower, means different things to you.




The Nazi flag has a nice aesthetic to it as well, as does the confederate navel jack flag people like to fly. Really; less people suffered under the influence of those flags; perhaps you should take their "beauty" into consideration?…

a message board the best you can do is use "Smilies," though your emotions always influence your content; hopefully your text will have rational thought behind it…

I have heard leftist make such statements about material possession before. How can you make such a generalization about communists? I&#39;m still waiting for the statistical analysis of the domestic communist.

Are you complaining the people most dear to you to a symbol rooted in a history of needless suffering and bloodshed?…

The scene in Casablanca when the whole of the cafe sings the French National Anthem, my visit to the Lincoln Memorial both bring me to tears.
Why?

So this must be taken into account as well, that a thing can remind me of something beautiful, and I can react to it.
If only all people did but some look at others and see profit, the chance to facilitate their predatory social dominance. To many of them, death is beautiful enough, when their wallets grow accordingly.


In answering all of this, I’m not trying to cheat you by getting out of it, but emotions are emotions; asthetics are asthetics. There is no reasoning to 1/2 of these feelings. If I tried to explain it to you, I might also try and explain to you why I like Blue more than Green, or explain other mysteries like the universe, or women, or the last episode of Seinfeld.

For you, it appears the worst moment in history was July 4, 1776, or when the Mayflower landed in Plymoth, or something like that.

All history is a story of conquest. It appears to be our nature. Even revolutionary movement must involve conquest at some point, I suppose the beginning. But what America has done since then, from my point of view, is beautiful. I suppose you stick around here because you want to work for or fight for change. Some of the things you wrote about imply that you hate America. I applaud you in a sense; I could never do that. I would take a more immediate action than you have, or I would leave.

Again, I’m not trying to avoid what you wrote. Most socialists at this website don’t like patriotism. I’m on the O.I. board, I suppose, because I like patriotism.

Overall I suppose I am the worst thing to your cause. The moderate. The supporter of the nation despite its occasional (through from your POV, usual) blunders. You believe my eyes are shut, when simply I don’t think your cause is worthy of opening them.

Generally, to explain this as best I can, the ideals you support have already been examined by Madison, Hamilton and Jefferson. They determined that ANY group or person who would need total power will lie to the people and betray them. Your Revolution you would fight for would produce a beast you couldn’t control, and the idealists, perhaps such as yourself, would be the first to be shot after their purpose had been served.


Can you not empathies with others? Obviously you were interested enough in what others though to post this thread.

I think you probably mean another word. (My spelling is awful and I usually don’t care, but I think you meant “empathize”.)

Here, it wouldn’t matter. If you had a truly socialistic society, could you empathize with those who wanted more personal freedom, or wanted to produce a play the community said NO to, using direct democracy, or so on and so on…The list is endless. But you would say no to such people because of the collective good. This empathy would be useless, as you come from a different point of view.



Yes; the US flag symbolized the efforts of bigots, rapists, robbers, slave-owners and murderers. Who are you relating to of these people?
Heroin can make you happy and antifreeze tastes quite good too... mmm death. If only we could stare at our glorious flag 24-7 we would all be so happy&#33;

If this makes you happy, perhaps you need to consider those suffering because of the regime that has carried your glorious flag. Life as livestock is great until you are the one butchered.

Well, in this area I don’t know if I could believe you. If you were visiting a nation that were being attacked for reasons outside of your interests by another nation, would you not run to the U.S. Embassy for protection? I don’t know what you’d do in such a circumstance. Do you? Really?



Ah, like the freedom the Native American people had?

No question about it, they were conquered. Should I put away my flags because of that? What about the American Indians who are 1/4 Indian and 3/4 European; what should they do? 1/8 European? 1/2? 1/16 American Indian, 1/4 Afro-American, 1/3 Irish (oow, I’d like to meet her&#33;) what do they do?


How about the people brought forcibly from Africa

How about those who have stayed and flourished? How about those who are proud to be Americans? Why don’t large numbers of them leave? Why would they want to? What will you of them? Have you ever heard of the All African Peoples Revolutionary Party? They believe in a movement for all black people THROUGHOUT THE WORLD to leave their current countries, go to Africa, and create a Pan-African, continental country using “Scientific socialism” as their foundation. Again, what about all the partially African? Where should they go? Ask Himmler and Gerbles I suppose, they might know what to do.

Guess how much &#036;&#036; is in the AAPRP treasury currently, Zero. Guess how many African-Americans have left to go to African and work for the goal of the AAPRP. Guess how many African leaders have agreed with the concept and have said, “Come on over…here’s 20,000 square miles for your new nation.

What do you do with a guy who’s black and marries a white girl who flies the Stars and Stripes? What about their children? What about my neighbors who are black Republicans who fly their flag also (but only on holidays)?


Perhaps the people in Mexico enjoyed the freedom of dying because they wanted to live where their ancestors did?

Here you are being very duplicitus. I can’t believe you wrote this without thinking through all of what you wrote. Wow&#33;

Tell me about the “rights” of people of partially French origin to emigrate to France. What about those who are partially Chinese, do they get to become Chinese again w/out any problems?

When the Treat of Guadelupe-Hidalgo was signed, Mexicans and Americans could freely move about for 5 years before choosing residency. So, let’s say I’m an American of Mexican decent, should Mexico automatically let me live there because my great-great granny lived there? Where do you cut it off? What right does anyone have to “live where there ancestors lived?” My old gf was Mexican, and my college roommate was from Guatemala. He used to get mad at her because he accused Mexico of stealing the Yukaton peninsula from Guatemala. So far, what have YOU done to insure reparations for the Guatemalans?

I could go on and on and on about this one. I’ll simply close by having you go to the U.S. State Department’s website and examine the figures of immigration to the U.S. from outside countries and try to beat it. Good luck.



OK, I need a break. You wrote me along argument, and I have to get lunch now. I’m going to take a nice two hours for lunch, then play with either a video output problem in a transmitter, or write some beautiful prose on an appeal for a friend’s client who believes he was owed more in an insurance settlement.

Til then,

R.

[Elect Marx]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2005, 01:21 PM
Well, you may have a low opinion of me anyways. I spoil my family something awful,
Yes; in that case I would have a rather low opinion of you.
Spoiling your children is really a relative matter but you could be indulging them in property fetishes to the extent that they are completely alienated from their fellow human beings and obsessed with commodities; I cannot really say.


and raise my children to honor their country and be proud they are Americans.

Passing on the supremacist traditions then? So do you think that your family is better than another family in another country? What a great accomplishment it is to be born here&#33; Perhaps you should teach your children to be proud of helping others in need? I suppose that isn&#39;t a big tradition here though...


We actually have several flags, and recently flied a large California Bear Flag in honor of Admission’s Day. (I suppose Nebraska has some similar holiday).

Yes; I am sure there are a great many holy days in celebration of "our" supremacy over others. Aren&#39;t pompous displays of depriving other great?


There’s even a Columbus Day Flag (that is, there is a Ferdinand y Isabela banner), and I suppose you probably think that’s Native American Genocide Day, or some such.

Damn straight; Columbus was a disgusting murderous bigot. Here’s an article on the matter (http://www.indians.org/welker/byecolum.htm).


Anyway, we have fun with the ones from the Revolutionary Wartime. The kids like them.

I don&#39;t suppose you go into how many people were needlessly sent to their death for the aims of capitalist profiteers?


My other faults is that I like to gamble on sports, drink large amounts when I’m not around my family, gamble on the sports book, and smoke cigars.

Far be it from me to judge; slowly killing yourself and wasting away your money is the least of my grievances with you.


But I’m there for my family and friends, and would do anything for them. But, like I said, I have my faults, and displaying the jingosit banner is the least of them.

Are you really? So far you have stated that you indulge them and enamor them with rhetoric. I get more that you are setting them up for a lifetime of disappointment and disillusion of their values if they do ever recognize the lies of their imperialist upbringing but I suppose they could always go on in the tradition of anti-human activity.



Pride in what? What is so personal about a flag concept implemented before you where born? Why would you make an "open declaration" if you were not "trying to persuade anyone about anything?" Obviously you want to affect others in some way.

Well, I think I mentioned that I accept my duality about this, that though it is a personal statement, there must be some conceit there. As I said, it’s a duality I just have to accept. And it’s about what the flag stands for to me, which, as I have read lower, means different things to you.

Yes, whereas the flag means to me what it has historically stood for; it means what exactly to you? What can even be personal about a flag with no relation to you? The flag in no way stands for you, it stands for your obedience and it in-fact stands against you, as you are a slave to the flag.



The Nazi flag has a nice aesthetic to it as well, as does the confederate navel jack flag people like to fly. Really; less people suffered under the influence of those flags; perhaps you should take their "beauty" into consideration?…

a message board the best you can do is use "Smilies," though your emotions always influence your content; hopefully your text will have rational thought behind it…

I have heard leftist make such statements about material possession before. How can you make such a generalization about communists? I&#39;m still waiting for the statistical analysis of the domestic communist.

Are you complaining the people most dear to you to a symbol rooted in a history of needless suffering and bloodshed?…


The scene in Casablanca when the whole of the cafe sings the French National Anthem, my visit to the Lincoln Memorial both bring me to tears.
Why?



So this must be taken into account as well, that a thing can remind me of something beautiful, and I can react to it.
If only all people did but some look at others and see profit, the chance to facilitate their predatory social dominance. To many of them, death is beautiful enough, when their wallets grow accordingly.


In answering all of this, I’m not trying to cheat you by getting out of it, but emotions are emotions; aesthetics are aesthetics.

Well, you are side-stepping the tough questions but I suppose that is only because you don&#39;t have valid answers to them. Like I&#39;ve said; I am sure you also appreciate the aesthetic of the Nazi flag and fly it proudly.


There is no reasoning to 1/2 of these feelings. If I tried to explain it to you, I might also try and explain to you why I like Blue more than Green, or explain other mysteries like the universe, or women, or the last episode of Seinfeld

I very much get the no reasoning part. This isn&#39;t about preferences; this is about you flying an imperialist flag and celebrating the suffering and death of countless millions.


For you, it appears the worst moment in history was July 4, 1776, or when the Mayflower landed in Plymoth, or something like that.

I couldn&#39;t really pick a "worst moment in history." Since that event though, people have died more often here for the property of those in power and even before that, they were dying in other places around the world, it was simply more peaceful here.


All history is a story of conquest.

Would you like to make a completely unjustified assertion? Now conflict theory, if you are familiar with Marx does document much of the historical struggle fought for the "benefit" of ruling classes.


It appears to be our nature.

How about we take the example of the murdered people we were just talking about, the Native Americans; or have you forgotten?

Well let me remind you: the Native American people didn&#39;t conquered and mass-murder other societies, so your claim is absolute BULLSHIT.


Even revolutionary movement must involve conquest at some point, I suppose the beginning.

So you are comparing the destruction of murderous oppressors to killing men women and children by the millions? I suppose that is an entirely same comparison.


But what America has done since then, from my point of view, is beautiful.

Such as? Is war beautiful? Is child labor beautiful? Is slavery beautiful? Is starvation beautiful? Are rape and other acts of torture beautiful? Please do point out what American cultural trapping you hold so dear.


I suppose you stick around here because you want to work for or fight for change.

Was it that clear? I should hope so.


Some of the things you wrote about imply that you hate America.

How so? Let me make it quite clear: I hate American imperialism, because I am an anti-imperialist.


I applaud you in a sense; I could never do that. I would take a more immediate action than you have, or I would leave.

What "more immediate action" would you take?


Again, I’m not trying to avoid what you wrote. Most socialists at this website don’t like patriotism. I’m on the O.I. board, I suppose, because I like patriotism.

Are you implying that you are some sort of socialist? Again; what is to like about American imperialism?


Overall I suppose I am the worst thing to your cause. The moderate.

Not really; the worst are the fundamentalist and imperialist zealots.


The supporter of the nation despite its occasional (through from your POV, usual) blunders.

Yes; please do tell the ten of thousands dying daily, "oops, sorry, my blunder."
Mass murder, torture and constant exploitation aren&#39;t occasional blunders, they are intentional atrocities.


You believe my eyes are shut, when simply I don’t think your cause is worthy of opening them.

Not just your eyes; you are in denial because you don&#39;t want to challenge your thought system and apply any sort of ethical standards to your "pride."
As for my cause goes, you don&#39;t display any knowledge of my cause as far as I have seen.


Generally, to explain this as best I can, the ideals you support have already been examined by Madison, Hamilton and Jefferson. They determined that ANY group or person who would need total power will lie to the people and betray them.

Exactly; you don&#39;t know the first thing about a communist movement. I would never allow concentration of power (like we have now).
Your statement proves that you are completely delusional about the hierarchy of current political systems.


Your Revolution you would fight for would produce a beast you couldn’t control, and the idealists, perhaps such as yourself, would be the first to be shot after their purpose had been served.

Blah, blah, blah… Stop pretending you know what I stand for. All you have to do is ask me my platform, whereas you frame your political beliefs as "emotions" and run away.

By the way, I am a philosophical materialist, not and idealist.



Can you not empathies with others? Obviously you were interested enough in what others though to post this thread.

I think you probably mean another word. (My spelling is awful and I usually don’t care, but I think you meant “empathize”.)

You caught me, cursed spellchecker.


Here, it wouldn’t matter. If you had a truly socialistic society, could you empathize with those who wanted more personal freedom, or wanted to produce a play the community said NO to, using direct democracy, or so on and so on…The list is endless. But you would say no to such people because of the collective good. This empathy would be useless, as you come from a different point of view.

Now this is about my views? Evasion? No, that wouldn&#39;t happen; in an actual free society (AKA classless), people would be able to have any play they like.



Yes; the US flag symbolized the efforts of bigots, rapists, robbers, slave-owners and murderers. Who are you relating to of these people?
Heroin can make you happy and antifreeze tastes quite good too... mmm death. If only we could stare at our glorious flag 24-7 we would all be so happy&#33;

If this makes you happy, perhaps you need to consider those suffering because of the regime that has carried your glorious flag. Life as livestock is great until you are the one butchered.

Well, in this area I don’t know if I could believe you. If you were visiting a nation that were being attacked for reasons outside of your interests by another nation, would you not run to the U.S. Embassy for protection? I don’t know what you’d do in such a circumstance. Do you? Really?

What point are you trying to make? That is completely irrelevant. Why don&#39;t you answer my question?



Ah, like the freedom the Native American people had?

No question about it, they were conquered. Should I put away my flags because of that?

Yes; if you act as if you are against genocide, you should not be a hypocrite and wave a banner of genocide.


What about the American Indians who are 1/4 Indian and 3/4 European; what should they do? 1/8 European? 1/2? 1/16 American Indian, 1/4 Afro-American, 1/3 Irish (oow, I’d like to meet her&#33;) what do they do?

Hopefully they will burn any flags they have at a public demonstration. I am not saying anyone should base this on "heritage." We are all related, we are humans and these crimes are against us all.



How about the people brought forcibly from Africa

How about those who have stayed and flourished? How about those who are proud to be Americans

Those people should be ashamed. Those living off of the exploitation and blood money of any background should be ashamed. American pride is no better than Nazi pride.


Why don’t large numbers of them leave? Why would they want to?

Stop changing the subject, I never said anyone should leave.


What will you of them?

I want everyone to stand up for one another, I want and end to exploitation, and needless suffering & death.


Have you ever heard of the All African Peoples Revolutionary Party? They believe in a movement for all black people THROUGHOUT THE WORLD to leave their current countries, go to Africa, and create a Pan-African, continental country using “Scientific socialism” as their foundation. Again, what about all the partially African? Where should they go? Ask Himmler and Gerbles I suppose, they might know what to do.

What the fuck are you talking about? That is a stupid idea. Scientific socialism is the previous term Marx used for communism.


Guess how much &#036;&#036; is in the AAPRP treasury currently, Zero. Guess how many African-Americans have left to go to African and work for the goal of the AAPRP. Guess how many African leaders have agreed with the concept and have said, “Come on over…here’s 20,000 square miles for your new nation.

Your point?


What do you do with a guy who’s black and marries a white girl who flies the Stars and Stripes? What about their children? What about my neighbors who are black Republicans who fly their flag also (but only on holidays)?

I have nothing against "inter-racial" anything; in fact it likely even benefits people to have genetic diversity. As for the flag flying, same guy, same shit; only he likely can look back a few generations and see his family directly enslaved under that flag.



Perhaps the people in Mexico enjoyed the freedom of dying because they wanted to live where their ancestors did?

Here you are being very duplicitus. I can’t believe you wrote this without thinking through all of what you wrote. Wow&#33;

I thought it through, I meant it and still do.


Tell me about the “rights” of people of partially French origin to emigrate to France. What about those who are partially Chinese, do they get to become Chinese again w/out any problems?

This wasn&#39;t a statement of nationality but living where you were born, just having the right to stay on the land your family has worked, not being thrown off without any reason other than greed.


When the Treat of Guadelupe-Hidalgo was signed, Mexicans and Americans could freely move about for 5 years before choosing residency. So, let’s say I’m an American of Mexican decent, should Mexico automatically let me live there because my great-great granny lived there? Where do you cut it off? What right does anyone have to “live where there ancestors lived?” My old gf was Mexican, and my college roommate was from Guatemala. He used to get mad at her because he accused Mexico of stealing the Yukaton peninsula from Guatemala. So far, what have YOU done to insure reparations for the Guatemalans?

Neither of us to my knowledge has any political sway as far as I can tell; no thanks to your jingoist rhetoric. You hold your breath until the US government equally distributes land, I&#39;ll organize the best I can. I am not saying I can guarantee success but I guarantee your failure.

There is no reason to displace anyone unless they are hoarding land or have recently stolen the land from others out of greed.


I could go on and on and on about this one. I’ll simply close by having you go to the U.S. State Department’s website and examine the figures of immigration to the U.S. from outside countries and try to beat it. Good luck.

Was that ever my goal?


OK, I need a break. You wrote me along argument, and I have to get lunch now. I’m going to take a nice two hours for lunch, then play with either a video output problem in a transmitter, or write some beautiful prose on an appeal for a friend’s client who believes he was owed more in an insurance settlement.

Have fun; I&#39;m waiting for the second half...

[Dark Exodus]

I suppose it represents to me such freedom in a world history dominated by such immense oppression.

It doesen&#39;t help when much of this oppression stems from the said &#39;free&#39; country.


I am not blind to our (the U.S.) shortcomings and wrongness we have done. But the only proof that I have that our good outweighs the bad is that there has been no mass exodus (no pun on your name) from the United States, but quite the reverse. Millions of people are trying to come here.

The problem with America is its influence abroad, not at home. The people affected by this are too poor to travel.

I do not see how people can be proud of a country, less-so proud of a country based on half-truths and indoctrination.

[quincunx5]

I do not see how people can be proud of a country, less-so proud of a country based on half-truths and indoctrination.


Every country is based on half-truths and indoctrination.

Every country has a monopoly on violence and courts.

The rulers of nations only care about the rulers of nations. Their only obligation is to do the minimum about of work to vaguely satisfy their constituents. Or use persuasive measures to make it look like good work is being done.

[Forward Union]

Originally posted by [email protected] 18 2005, 04:07 PM


I do not see how people can be proud of a country, less-so proud of a country based on half-truths and indoctrination.


Every country is based on half-truths and indoctrination.

Every country has a monopoly on violence and courts.

The rulers of nations only care about the rulers of nations. Their only obligation is to do the minimum about of work to vaguely satisfy their constituents. Or use persuasive measures to make it look like good work is being done.
Exactly

[Commie-Pinko]

Anyone that has the slightest knowledge of ww2 history [so most americans are out] knows it was the Red Army that defeated the fascists.


The sheer volumn of food stuffs, heavy machinery, parts, as well as equipment sent to the Soviet Union by western powers was, quite frankly, staggering. If you google it, you will find that the Soviet Union owned much success to outsiders which allowed them to build such vast quantities of tanks, planes, and weapons.

[Osman Ghazi]

Most of the tanks were produced in the USSR, but it was the planes, which after 1942 gave the Soviets air superiority that came from the West (actually, just the US). But they did recieve a lot of agricultural and industrial support from the US as well.

[Dark Exodus]

Originally posted by [email protected] 18 2005, 04:07 PM


I do not see how people can be proud of a country, less-so proud of a country based on half-truths and indoctrination.


Every country is based on half-truths and indoctrination.

Every country has a monopoly on violence and courts.

The rulers of nations only care about the rulers of nations. Their only obligation is to do the minimum about of work to vaguely satisfy their constituents. Or use persuasive measures to make it look like good work is being done.
Precisely.

[Elect Marx]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2005, 06:37 PM
The funny part is that the guy ignores my whole post.
I feel for you... he&#39;s ignoring my post now.

[rachstev]

Gentlemen,

I am not ignoring your posts. It&#39;s just that I am overworked beyond belief. And on top of it, the Jr. Pee Wee football program my son is in (that&#39;s REAL football, the American kind, not the Euro-trash version) needs me to wire the high school&#39;s board to allow for audio to be in sinc with the score board. And I have to still work on the insurance appeal, and I have to build a bugging device to use at an upcoming pro-Hawaiian seperatist movement meeting in, of all places, Orange County.

But I promise you I will get around to part 2, Elect Marx Guy and Compeno

Yours,

Rachstev

[Elect Marx]

Now are you ignoring this thread rachstev? I must say you have put quite some effort into your new threads and others.

[rachstev]

Actually, 313, their work doesn&#39;t take all that time to handle, yours requires some real effort and thought.

Rachstev

[Dark Exodus]

that&#39;s REAL football, the American kind, not the Euro-trash version

Oh yes, just because we have been playing it since before the country called America existed is no reason to make it more &#39;REAL&#39; than the infinitely superior American kind.

These little comments are speaking volumes about your character.

[rachstev]

Dark Exodus, You don&#39;t know this, unless you&#39;ve been reading everything written to me, but a few members have fun poking at me for my children playing American football, and take various opportunities to tease me about the sport. Actually, my accountant is very involved in AYSO, or whatever it&#39;s called. A lot of people in California enjoy soccer. I&#39;m not one of them, but I appreciate soccer&#39;s importance in the sporting world.

Have some humor, man&#33;



313C7 iVi4RX, Here&#39;s part 2:


Ah, like the freedom the Native American people had? How about the people brought forcibly from Africa; how have they enjoyed their liberation? Perhaps the people in Mexico enjoyed the freedom of dying because they wanted to live where their ancestors did? Women have also enjoyed having the freedom of being property, much like how children have had almost as much freedom as your household appliances... hmm, so many historical freedoms. Remember how communists have been free to struggle for a classless society?

Well, one of the issues is whether any person can bring up the past of a nation and use it against them.

If I were to take your point of view, that the United States was oppresive and exploitive, etc., then why have a 13th, 14th and 15th amendments? These were great triuphs of civil rights that were achieved over many years of hard effort and four years of internal war. If I accept what you believe, why did we create them in the first place?

As you remember, I already discussed many of these issues you have brought up, and dismiss most of them as “talk-talk”, past history and general theory without practical application.

First, as I mentioned, the identification of one American versus another American becomes less meaningful in 2005, and will be even more less so in 2015, and 2025. Inter-racial marriage and procreation religates most of these issues to discussing history only. Americans enjoy many great freedoms protected by the Constitution. As you do not agree with this, I once again put to you the question why 1) re: African Americans, there is no exodus of the United States for Africa and no interest in the AAPRP’s goals of pan-Africanism; 2) re: Mexican Americans, there is no interest in Reconquista and the realization of Aztlan, beyond the cultural connection to La Raza. California, Nevada, Arizona, Colorado, New Mexico and Texas are NOT under attack by an expansion of large populaitons of Mexican Americans in these regions. The vast majority of such people are NOT planning Reconquista.

Re: women and children, we were, as you know founded as a nation by English people who based early colonial and state law on the Common Law present in England after 1066 A.D. Whacha gonna do. With the one exception of Louisiana, which was based upon the Napolianic Code, Common Law was the basis of the other 49 states. As we progressed as a people, these early classifications of women and children as chattel withered away. And far faster than any other nation in history. Today, all states have ad litem civil procedure, insuring children’s rights are defended.




QUOTE
Most people I know are glad they are in a nation which has such freedoms, which has a Bill of Rights,

Are they? Do most people even know the Bill of Rights?

I know the Bill of Rights, and large numbers of Americans, of course, know the biggies. But what does it matter if they don’t. It doesn’t mean their ignorance leads to exploitation. I am facsinated by U.S. Court decisions, so I study it. You are facsinated by X, and your friends and family turn to you for your knowledge in X for advice. People ask me abou their rights all the time, because I have a JD. But they’re more likely to ask me about the Mountain West Conference football teams and Utah’s chances over Wyoming, how to make a good vodka martini (I’m working on 4 double one this morning from yesterday afternoon...eeesh&#33;)

QUOTE
which has the ability to openly form associations (a VITAL right; sometimes more important than freedom of speech)

Exactly; this is why communists haven’t been persecuted, why leftist materials/groups haven&#39;t been policed and why protesters, as well as active organizers are never kidnapped, imprisoned or murdered for exercising their rights.

You are right about that, but we have moved on, and these issues are no longer fair questions in nearly any circumstance. Applications for employment also used to ask your religion as well. Non-Christians had a tough time compared to Christians. But again, it’s really in the past.

QUOTE
that lead the world to destroy pure evil in the 1940&#39;s.

Right but until the US was attacked, the "pure evil" was a viable trading partner and for some reason those pesky Jews kept trying to get into our country...

Here you are mixing up your history. Not an uncommon understanding: In Europe, the United States created lend-lease, an act that gave munitions to England. But, yes, in the early 30’s, we did have trade with Germany. But Germany did not attack us, the Empire of Japan did that, and we were on unfriendly terms with them since they invaded Manchuria province in the early 30’s, and wouldn’t sell them oil. It was one of the main reasons they attacked us in ‘41.

QUOTE
One of our greatest led us to a newer and better freedom in the 1960&#39;s, and like so many other Americans before him, King paid the ultimate price for his leadership. His work breathed new life into the 14th Amendment; another beautiful statement.

An interesting coincidence was that he was becoming more radical and anti-imperialist before his assassination.

I’m sure many individuals wanted to kill King long before his anti-capitalist comments. But believe what you will.


QUOTE
I am not blind to our (the U.S.) shortcomings and wrongness we have done. But the only proof that I have that our good outweighs the bad is that there has been no mass exodus (no pun on your name) from the United States, but quite the reverse. Millions of people are trying to come here.

So because people are coming for the wealth the US is importing from the rest of the world, that means the "good outweighs the bad?"

I’m sorry, I did not understand your comment here.


QUOTE
In fact, the last real, national exodus I can remember was the leaving of the eastern section of Berlin for the western section. It is interesting that all of the people who lived under a great socialist state (will everyone on this board please stop telling me Soviet-type naitons were not socialist...I know; I know; you all have a narrow and pure design of what socialism is and East Germany didn&#39;t measure up to it.) did not then go to Western Germany and press it to become more like it was, but wanted instead under reunification to be like the West.

This is quite a ramble; could you please make a coherent point? People have rallied together for fascist regimes time and time again; does that validate them?

I stand by what I wrote. If you find it a ramble, then you find it a ramble.

QUOTE
I&#39;m sure if there were any kind of revolution movement in, oh, let&#39;s say the U.K., there would be some colors that everyone could follow. And "after" the revolution, when you walked up the Party headquarters, and told them it was time to retire colors, because the revolution was won, and it was now time for the state to wither away, they would (after privately laughing to themselves that there was a naive purest before them) tell you that the revolution was not over, and that there were still many battles to fight, which was why you couldn&#39;t have direct democracy "just yet"; or trasparency in the government structure "just yet"; or the electricity turn on "just yet".

Yes; making us stories is fun but this has no bearing on reality.

I think what I wrote is VERY relevant. Needless to say, I hope you never succeed in your revolutionary ideas, not only for the sake of America, but your health as well. Once the revolution is over, thinkers and purists like yourselves become accident prone, or disappear entirely.

QUOTE
I look forward to later in my life, when, as so many here have commented, the flag will look differently. I agree. It will have more than 50 stars.

Great&#33; new flags to burn.

And your right to burn them brought to you by the United States Contitution’s First Amendment, and those cappie judges on the Supreme Court.


Rachstev

[Dark Exodus]

Have some humor, man&#33;

Seems like I have spent too long on the OI boards.

[Elect Marx]

I have posted my reply in full (parts 1&2). Please use the QUOTE function if you are able or otherwise define quotes, as this would make your responses more legible.


Originally posted by rachstev+Sep 16 2005, 01:21 PM--> (rachstev &#064; Sep 16 2005, 01:21 PM) Well, you may have a low opinion of me anyways. I spoil my family something awful, [/b]
Yes; in that case I would have a rather low opinion of you.
Spoiling your children is really a relative matter but you could be indulging them in property fetishes to the extent that they are completely alienated from their fellow human beings and obsessed with commodities; I cannot really say.


and raise my children to honor their country and be proud they are Americans.

Passing on the supremacist traditions then? So do you think that your family is better than another family in another country? What a great accomplishment it is to be born here&#33; Perhaps you should teach your children to be proud of helping others in need? I suppose that isn&#39;t a big tradition here though...


We actually have several flags, and recently flied a large California Bear Flag in honor of Admission’s Day. (I suppose Nebraska has some similar holiday).

Yes; I am sure there are a great many holy days in celebration of "our" supremacy over others. Aren&#39;t pompous displays of depriving other great?


There’s even a Columbus Day Flag (that is, there is a Ferdinand y Isabela banner), and I suppose you probably think that’s Native American Genocide Day, or some such.

Damn straight; Columbus was a disgusting murderous bigot. Here’s an article on the matter (http://www.indians.org/welker/byecolum.htm).


Anyway, we have fun with the ones from the Revolutionary Wartime. The kids like them.

I don&#39;t suppose you go into how many people were needlessly sent to their death for the aims of capitalist profiteers?


My other faults is that I like to gamble on sports, drink large amounts when I’m not around my family, gamble on the sports book, and smoke cigars.

Far be it from me to judge; slowly killing yourself and wasting away your money is the least of my grievances with you.


But I’m there for my family and friends, and would do anything for them. But, like I said, I have my faults, and displaying the jingosit banner is the least of them.

Are you really? So far you have stated that you indulge them and enamor them with rhetoric. I get more that you are setting them up for a lifetime of disappointment and disillusion of their values if they do ever recognize the lies of their imperialist upbringing but I suppose they could always go on in the tradition of anti-human activity.



Pride in what? What is so personal about a flag concept implemented before you where born? Why would you make an "open declaration" if you were not "trying to persuade anyone about anything?" Obviously you want to affect others in some way.

Well, I think I mentioned that I accept my duality about this, that though it is a personal statement, there must be some conceit there. As I said, it’s a duality I just have to accept. And it’s about what the flag stands for to me, which, as I have read lower, means different things to you.

Yes, whereas the flag means to me what it has historically stood for; it means what exactly to you? What can even be personal about a flag with no relation to you? The flag in no way stands for you, it stands for your obedience and it in-fact stands against you, as you are a slave to the flag.



The Nazi flag has a nice aesthetic to it as well, as does the confederate navel jack flag people like to fly. Really; less people suffered under the influence of those flags; perhaps you should take their "beauty" into consideration?…

a message board the best you can do is use "Smilies," though your emotions always influence your content; hopefully your text will have rational thought behind it…

I have heard leftist make such statements about material possession before. How can you make such a generalization about communists? I&#39;m still waiting for the statistical analysis of the domestic communist.

Are you complaining the people most dear to you to a symbol rooted in a history of needless suffering and bloodshed?…


The scene in Casablanca when the whole of the cafe sings the French National Anthem, my visit to the Lincoln Memorial both bring me to tears.
Why?



So this must be taken into account as well, that a thing can remind me of something beautiful, and I can react to it.
If only all people did but some look at others and see profit, the chance to facilitate their predatory social dominance. To many of them, death is beautiful enough, when their wallets grow accordingly.


In answering all of this, I’m not trying to cheat you by getting out of it, but emotions are emotions; aesthetics are aesthetics.

Well, you are side-stepping the tough questions but I suppose that is only because you don&#39;t have valid answers to them. Like I&#39;ve said; I am sure you also appreciate the aesthetic of the Nazi flag and fly it proudly.


There is no reasoning to 1/2 of these feelings. If I tried to explain it to you, I might also try and explain to you why I like Blue more than Green, or explain other mysteries like the universe, or women, or the last episode of Seinfeld

I very much get the no reasoning part. This isn&#39;t about preferences; this is about you flying an imperialist flag and celebrating the suffering and death of countless millions.


For you, it appears the worst moment in history was July 4, 1776, or when the Mayflower landed in Plymoth, or something like that.

I couldn&#39;t really pick a "worst moment in history." Since that event though, people have died more often here for the property of those in power and even before that, they were dying in other places around the world, it was simply more peaceful here.


All history is a story of conquest.

Would you like to make a completely unjustified assertion? Now conflict theory, if you are familiar with Marx does document much of the historical struggle fought for the "benefit" of ruling classes.


It appears to be our nature.

How about we take the example of the murdered people we were just talking about, the Native Americans; or have you forgotten?

Well let me remind you: the Native American people didn&#39;t conquered and mass-murder other societies, so your claim is absolute BULLSHIT.


Even revolutionary movement must involve conquest at some point, I suppose the beginning.

So you are comparing the destruction of murderous oppressors to killing men women and children by the millions? I suppose that is an entirely same comparison.


But what America has done since then, from my point of view, is beautiful.

Such as? Is war beautiful? Is child labor beautiful? Is slavery beautiful? Is starvation beautiful? Are rape and other acts of torture beautiful? Please do point out what American cultural trapping you hold so dear.


I suppose you stick around here because you want to work for or fight for change.

Was it that clear? I should hope so.


Some of the things you wrote about imply that you hate America.

How so? Let me make it quite clear: I hate American imperialism, because I am an anti-imperialist.


I applaud you in a sense; I could never do that. I would take a more immediate action than you have, or I would leave.

What "more immediate action" would you take?


Again, I’m not trying to avoid what you wrote. Most socialists at this website don’t like patriotism. I’m on the O.I. board, I suppose, because I like patriotism.

Are you implying that you are some sort of socialist? Again; what is to like about American imperialism?


Overall I suppose I am the worst thing to your cause. The moderate.

Not really; the worst are the fundamentalist and imperialist zealots.


The supporter of the nation despite its occasional (through from your POV, usual) blunders.

Yes; please do tell the ten of thousands dying daily, "oops, sorry, my blunder."
Mass murder, torture and constant exploitation aren&#39;t occasional blunders, they are intentional atrocities.


You believe my eyes are shut, when simply I don’t think your cause is worthy of opening them.

Not just your eyes; you are in denial because you don&#39;t want to challenge your thought system and apply any sort of ethical standards to your "pride."
As for my cause goes, you don&#39;t display any knowledge of my cause as far as I have seen.


Generally, to explain this as best I can, the ideals you support have already been examined by Madison, Hamilton and Jefferson. They determined that ANY group or person who would need total power will lie to the people and betray them.

Exactly; you don&#39;t know the first thing about a communist movement. I would never allow concentration of power (like we have now).
Your statement proves that you are completely delusional about the hierarchy of current political systems.


Your Revolution you would fight for would produce a beast you couldn’t control, and the idealists, perhaps such as yourself, would be the first to be shot after their purpose had been served.

Blah, blah, blah… Stop pretending you know what I stand for. All you have to do is ask me my platform, whereas you frame your political beliefs as "emotions" and run away.

By the way, I am a philosophical materialist, not and idealist.



Can you not empathies with others? Obviously you were interested enough in what others though to post this thread.

I think you probably mean another word. (My spelling is awful and I usually don’t care, but I think you meant “empathize”.)

You caught me, cursed spellchecker.


Here, it wouldn’t matter. If you had a truly socialistic society, could you empathize with those who wanted more personal freedom, or wanted to produce a play the community said NO to, using direct democracy, or so on and so on…The list is endless. But you would say no to such people because of the collective good. This empathy would be useless, as you come from a different point of view.

Now this is about my views? Evasion? No, that wouldn&#39;t happen; in an actual free society (AKA classless), people would be able to have any play they like.



Yes; the US flag symbolized the efforts of bigots, rapists, robbers, slave-owners and murderers. Who are you relating to of these people?
Heroin can make you happy and antifreeze tastes quite good too... mmm death. If only we could stare at our glorious flag 24-7 we would all be so happy&#33;

If this makes you happy, perhaps you need to consider those suffering because of the regime that has carried your glorious flag. Life as livestock is great until you are the one butchered.

Well, in this area I don’t know if I could believe you. If you were visiting a nation that were being attacked for reasons outside of your interests by another nation, would you not run to the U.S. Embassy for protection? I don’t know what you’d do in such a circumstance. Do you? Really?

What point are you trying to make? That is completely irrelevant. Why don&#39;t you answer my question?



Ah, like the freedom the Native American people had?

No question about it, they were conquered. Should I put away my flags because of that?

Yes; if you act as if you are against genocide, you should not be a hypocrite and wave a banner of genocide.


What about the American Indians who are 1/4 Indian and 3/4 European; what should they do? 1/8 European? 1/2? 1/16 American Indian, 1/4 Afro-American, 1/3 Irish (oow, I’d like to meet her&#33;) what do they do?

Hopefully they will burn any flags they have at a public demonstration. I am not saying anyone should base this on "heritage." We are all related, we are humans and these crimes are against us all.



How about the people brought forcibly from Africa

How about those who have stayed and flourished? How about those who are proud to be Americans

Those people should be ashamed. Those living off of the exploitation and blood money of any background should be ashamed. American pride is no better than Nazi pride.


Why don’t large numbers of them leave? Why would they want to?

Stop changing the subject, I never said anyone should leave.


What will you of them?

I want everyone to stand up for one another, I want and end to exploitation, and needless suffering & death.


Have you ever heard of the All African Peoples Revolutionary Party? They believe in a movement for all black people THROUGHOUT THE WORLD to leave their current countries, go to Africa, and create a Pan-African, continental country using “Scientific socialism” as their foundation. Again, what about all the partially African? Where should they go? Ask Himmler and Gerbles I suppose, they might know what to do.

What the fuck are you talking about? That is a stupid idea. Scientific socialism is the previous term Marx used for communism.


Guess how much &#036;&#036; is in the AAPRP treasury currently, Zero. Guess how many African-Americans have left to go to African and work for the goal of the AAPRP. Guess how many African leaders have agreed with the concept and have said, “Come on over…here’s 20,000 square miles for your new nation.

Your point?


What do you do with a guy who’s black and marries a white girl who flies the Stars and Stripes? What about their children? What about my neighbors who are black Republicans who fly their flag also (but only on holidays)?

I have nothing against "inter-racial" anything; in fact it likely even benefits people to have genetic diversity. As for the flag flying, same guy, same shit; only he likely can look back a few generations and see his family directly enslaved under that flag.



Perhaps the people in Mexico enjoyed the freedom of dying because they wanted to live where their ancestors did?

Here you are being very duplicitus. I can’t believe you wrote this without thinking through all of what you wrote. Wow&#33;

I thought it through, I meant it and still do.


Tell me about the “rights” of people of partially French origin to emigrate to France. What about those who are partially Chinese, do they get to become Chinese again w/out any problems?

This wasn&#39;t a statement of nationality but living where you were born, just having the right to stay on the land your family has worked, not being thrown off without any reason other than greed.


When the Treat of Guadelupe-Hidalgo was signed, Mexicans and Americans could freely move about for 5 years before choosing residency. So, let’s say I’m an American of Mexican decent, should Mexico automatically let me live there because my great-great granny lived there? Where do you cut it off? What right does anyone have to “live where there ancestors lived?” My old gf was Mexican, and my college roommate was from Guatemala. He used to get mad at her because he accused Mexico of stealing the Yukaton peninsula from Guatemala. So far, what have YOU done to insure reparations for the Guatemalans?

Neither of us to my knowledge has any political sway as far as I can tell; no thanks to your jingoist rhetoric. You hold your breath until the US government equally distributes land, I&#39;ll organize the best I can. I am not saying I can guarantee success but I guarantee your failure.

There is no reason to displace anyone unless they are hoarding land or have recently stolen the land from others out of greed.


I could go on and on and on about this one. I’ll simply close by having you go to the U.S. State Department’s website and examine the figures of immigration to the U.S. from outside countries and try to beat it. Good luck.

Was that ever my goal?


[email protected] 23 2005, 10:05 AM

Ah, like the freedom the Native American people had? How about the people brought forcibly from Africa; how have they enjoyed their liberation? Perhaps the people in Mexico enjoyed the freedom of dying because they wanted to live where their ancestors did? Women have also enjoyed having the freedom of being property, much like how children have had almost as much freedom as your household appliances... hmm, so many historical freedoms. Remember how communists have been free to struggle for a classless society?

Well, one of the issues is whether any person can bring up the past of a nation and use it against them.
You are really avoiding the issue here. This isn&#39;t about the "nation," this is about the government, run by the ruling class; the same people that continue to benefit from the resources taken in genocide, torture and other historic atrocities.


If I were to take your point of view, that the United States was oppresive and exploitive, etc., then why have a 13th, 14th and 15th amendments?

Because people fought for them? You are only making my case that the state had to be forced to make these amendments and still does not consider it a great priority that they are upheld.


These were great triuphs of civil rights that were achieved over many years of hard effort and four years of internal war.

Exactly; now who had to fight for them? Was it the working class? Were the rulers the ones to stand up for human rights? Were they the ones to voluntarily free their slaves? Have monarchs historically prioritized the well-being of the public? Has that changed among the rulers?


If I accept what you believe, why did we create them in the first place?

As an appeasement and remember; there was no "we" to it. The working class fought for it but never did they have a hand in the ruling.


As you remember, I already discussed many of these issues you have brought up, and dismiss most of them as “talk-talk”, past history and general theory without practical application.

Really? Where? This is quite a diversion.


First, as I mentioned, the identification of one American versus another American becomes less meaningful in 2005, and will be even more less so in 2015, and 2025. Inter-racial marriage and procreation religates most of these issues to discussing history only.

How is this remotely pertinent? :unsure:


Americans enjoy many great freedoms protected by the Constitution. As you do not agree with this, I once again put to you the question why

Because writing does not equal freedom. A guarantee on paper is worth shit when it is just lip service and people&#39;s basic human rights aren&#39;t even recognized.


1) re: African Americans, there is no exodus of the United States for Africa and no interest in the AAPRP’s goals of pan-Africanism; 2) re: Mexican Americans, there is no interest in Reconquista and the realization of Aztlan, beyond the cultural connection to La Raza. California, Nevada, Arizona, Colorado, New Mexico and Texas are NOT under attack by an expansion of large populaitons of Mexican Americans in these regions. The vast majority of such people are NOT planning Reconquista.

So what? That is entirely irrelevant. My point was that by waving the flag you are sanctioning the actions the US took in murdering and "relocating" indigenous people.


Re: women and children, we were, as you know founded as a nation by English people who based early colonial and state law on the Common Law present in England after 1066 A.D. Whacha gonna do.

Not recognize the "authority" of a continuing history of bigotry and oppression?


As we progressed as a people, these early classifications of women and children as chattel withered away.

This is absolutely the most disgusting thing you have said. To think that the struggle of women and those defending children doesn&#39;t even merit a mention by you. Please do tell your family that you don&#39;t give a shit about what it really took for them to have any semblance of rights.


And far faster than any other nation in history. Today, all states have ad litem civil procedure, insuring children’s rights are defended.

Great&#33; So our child labor and general other sweatshop work can be exported. We have ours, fuck the rest of the world...




Most people I know are glad they are in a nation which has such freedoms, which has a Bill of Rights,

Are they? Do most people even know the Bill of Rights?

I know the Bill of Rights, and large numbers of Americans, of course, know the biggies. But what does it matter if they don’t.

Because knowing them doesn&#39;t guarantee you anything. A pig can still smash your face and walk away, especially if you are among the more disenfranchised members of our great nation.


It doesn’t mean their ignorance leads to exploitation.

More like exploitation leads to ignorance but how is this even relevant?
Are you seriously going to deny that "ignorance leads to exploitation?"


I am facsinated by U.S. Court decisions, so I study it. You are facsinated by X, and your friends and family turn to you for your knowledge in X for advice. People ask me abou their rights all the time, because I have a JD. But they’re more likely to ask me about the Mountain West Conference football teams and Utah’s chances over Wyoming, how to make a good vodka martini (I’m working on 4 double one this morning from yesterday afternoon...eeesh&#33;)

So you see what people&#39;s priorities are; right?




which has the ability to openly form associations (a VITAL right; sometimes more important than freedom of speech)

Exactly; this is why communists haven’t been persecuted, why leftist materials/groups haven&#39;t been policed and why protesters, as well as active organizers are never kidnapped, imprisoned or murdered for exercising their rights.

You are right about that, but we have moved on, and these issues are no longer fair questions in nearly any circumstance.

How about protesters being attacked and murdered? That is still happening. What about the monopoly of news media and the suppression of the left; if you cannot see that you are delusional. Even if you are privileged, that doesn&#39;t mean pigs aren&#39;t still mudding and imprisoning people for their political struggles.




that lead the world to destroy pure evil in the 1940&#39;s.

Right but until the US was attacked, the "pure evil" was a viable trading partner and for some reason those pesky Jews kept trying to get into our country...

Here you are mixing up your history. Not an uncommon understanding: In Europe, the United States created lend-lease, an act that gave munitions to England. But, yes, in the early 30’s, we did have trade with Germany. But Germany did not attack us, the Empire of Japan did that, and we were on unfriendly terms with them since they invaded Manchuria province in the early 30’s, and wouldn’t sell them oil. It was one of the main reasons they attacked us in ‘41.

Actually, my great uncle happened to be on Pearl Harbor when it was attacked; he died not so long ago.

See, I can make off-point statements too. The point is, US corporations worked with the Nazis and they didn&#39;t really care who was mass-murdered in Germany; this was only allowed by the US ruling class, the same people you support waving your flag (you Nazi supporter you ;)). Don&#39;t forget that the authorities you support, knowingly turned away the Jewish people coming for a safe harbor from genocide (don&#39;t you just love those Nazi death camps enough to support their anti-Semitism?).




One of our greatest led us to a newer and better freedom in the 1960&#39;s, and like so many other Americans before him, King paid the ultimate price for his leadership. His work breathed new life into the 14th Amendment; another beautiful statement.

An interesting coincidence was that he was becoming more radical and anti-imperialist before his assassination.

I’m sure many individuals wanted to kill King long before his anti-capitalist comments. But believe what you will.

Yet he survived for many years until he spoke out against systematic exploitation. Maybe he should have just depended on his constitutional rights...




I am not blind to our (the U.S.) shortcomings and wrongness we have done. But the only proof that I have that our good outweighs the bad is that there has been no mass exodus (no pun on your name) from the United States, but quite the reverse. Millions of people are trying to come here.

So because people are coming for the wealth the US is importing from the rest of the world, that means the "good outweighs the bad?"

I’m sorry, I did not understand your comment here.

People are coming because they want a piece of the pie, they are often desperate to survive and somehow you try to use that to show "our good outweighs the bad."
This is an absurd argument; desperation does not equal "good."




In fact, the last real, national exodus I can remember was the leaving of the eastern section of Berlin for the western section. It is interesting that all of the people who lived under a great socialist state (will everyone on this board please stop telling me Soviet-type naitons were not socialist...I know; I know; you all have a narrow and pure design of what socialism is and East Germany didn&#39;t measure up to it.) did not then go to Western Germany and press it to become more like it was, but wanted instead under reunification to be like the West.

This is quite a ramble; could you please make a coherent point? People have rallied together for fascist regimes time and time again; does that validate them?

I stand by what I wrote. If you find it a ramble, then you find it a ramble.

Way to avoid my point...




I&#39;m sure if there were any kind of revolution movement in, oh, let&#39;s say the U.K., there would be some colors that everyone could follow. And "after" the revolution, when you walked up the Party headquarters, and told them it was time to retire colors, because the revolution was won, and it was now time for the state to wither away, they would (after privately laughing to themselves that there was a naive purest before them) tell you that the revolution was not over, and that there were still many battles to fight, which was why you couldn&#39;t have direct democracy "just yet"; or trasparency in the government structure "just yet"; or the electricity turn on "just yet".

Yes; making us stories is fun but this has no bearing on reality.

I think what I wrote is VERY relevant. Needless to say, I hope you never succeed in your revolutionary ideas, not only for the sake of America, but your health as well. Once the revolution is over, thinkers and purists like yourselves become accident prone, or disappear entirely.

Yes, you seem deeply confused. I am not so sure I have ever suggested revolution to you, let alone suggested we allow anyone the power to have people assassinated. Your statement is completely inane.




I look forward to later in my life, when, as so many here have commented, the flag will look differently. I agree. It will have more than 50 stars.

Great&#33; new flags to burn.

And your right to burn them brought to you by the United States Contitution’s First Amendment, and those cappie judges on the Supreme Court.

Bullshit; they have only allowed it at times, they have never defended it or "brought" it to me. Yet another right exercised (under oppression) by workers that you credit to the governing body.

[Ownthink]

@ Rachstev...

Homophobia, Nationalism, and "you suck because you&#39;re not an American"?

I can&#39;t believe you hate us when your the one with that attitude. Go fucking die, you piece of shit.

^ Mods, I&#39;m sorry for that "flame", but come on, this guy was just being another Cappie, up until he announces he&#39;s gonna leave, when his REAL side shows... where he uses homophobic, nationalistic, and "you suck because you&#39;re not an American" insults. PLEASE. And you wonder why we all hate your fucking guts, you flag-flying, nationalistic, homophobic piece of Republican shit. You should be ashamed to even have a son, asshole.


Die.

P.S. ^ Do those count as flames? If so just edit it or something, I don&#39;t want some warning point because I flamed some nationalist Republican.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Ownthink, your sentiments are not uncalled for. While I don&#39;t think you&#39;re going to shake this idiot out of his nationalist delusions, it&#39;s still good to give the opposition a verbal runaround. Cathartic one might say.