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Blasphemy
20th December 2002, 15:39
a lecturer from Betselem, The Israeli Information Centre For Human Rights in the Palestinian Territories, came to our school to lecture. this was done because of the human rights week, and there were other lectures as well, and you could choose whichever one you want.

well, this guy really opened my eyes to a lot of stuff that i didn't know about, simply because the patriotic media in israel just doensn't publish it. arbitary arrests, extra judicial executions, road blocking and other actions taken by israel which infringe upon human rights in the most coarse way.

the lecture could have been much better if a part of the rightist minority in my school didn't come just to interrupt. they kept yelling and cursing at the poor guy, and at me, because i was backing him up. so anyway, during the lecture some stupid idiot says that parents of suicide bombers should be killed, because they are responsible for the deaths of the israelis killed in the attack their sons perpetrated. i told him that no person deserves to die, and got some really offensive reactions. some people even kindly suggested to slaughter me, but i had to gently reject their friendly offer.

so the point is this: death in israel became too much of a regularity. people don't have any problem killing other people, including innocent people, to solve political conflicts. murder has become an instrument the government should use in order to promote its goals. i think it's quite sad, because we have stopped thinking about all the other people, surrounding the person we wish to kill. we stopped thinking about the friends and brothers and sisters and parents and children of these people. not only palestinians, but also israelis. i always said that attacking soldiers in the territories is legitimate, but when you really think about it, it isn't. killing another person is never legitimate. when people are surrounded by death, they are filled with hatred towards the people who are responsible for the death, but mosly people who had nothing to do with it. i mean, people hate the palestinians/israelis as a whole, and fail to distinguish between those who take part in the killing, and those who don't.

but then again, is it really okay to hate those who do take part in the killing? once we start hating, we translate out hate to actions, violent actions, in order to satisfy out destructive feelings of hatred. but these actions don't hurt only the one your hatred is directed against. ultimately, you hurt yourself, because you actions bred hate at the heart of someone close to the person you killed, and you become the target. and about the soldiers. when people hear that palestinians killed israeli soldiers in the territories, they don't say to themselves "that's okay, because they are in the territories, and it is actually a legitimate way to fight an occupying force". they think to themselves "fucking palestinians, let's bomb them with f-15s." so eventually, for every person killed, soldier or civilian, the hatred is fueled more and more.

now, the majority of the israeli left, including the head of the labour party, Amram Mitzna, say that negotiations should start, but we should fight terrorism like there are no negotiations, and have negotiations like there's no terrorism. so, they support the use of force in order to fight terrorism, although all of us here knows that the "war on terror" is an illusion. the use of violence, will fuel the hatred that already exists, and the negotiations will be pointless, because people will have no desire to make peace.

my conclusion is this: violence is never a solution. it can't be a solution, even as a part of diplomatic negotiations, because violence is part of the problem, but mainly the hatred, which is fueled by the violence. with every tank that rolls into jenin, and every terrorist shooting at civilians in tel aviv, the chance of a normal life drifts farther and farther away.

this lecture, altough the lecturer did not state any political opinion, only made me more sure of my pacifism. that's all folks, and thanks for listening.

Non-Sectarian Bastard!
20th December 2002, 16:37
I heard something about a tape made by Palestinian humanright activists about Israel warcrimes, but this film is forbidden in Israel. Can someone tell me more?

Blasphemy
20th December 2002, 18:02
yes. the film is called "Jenin Jenin" and is was made by an israeli-arab film director called Muhammad Bachri. Jenin Jenin shows the conflict, and mainly the vast israeli military operation - Shielding Wall - which took place a few months ago, from a palestinian point of view. the movie was banned in israel because it "incites against israel and has many lies in it".

this, of course, is crap. every movie like that is bound to have some lies and untruths in it, but that's no reason to ban it. a few weeks ago, a movie presenting an israeli point of view was shown on TV, and nobody had any problem with it.

there was a special presentation of Jenin Jenin in the hebrew university and in the Left Bank study center, but i couldn't make it unfortunately. i'll try and see the movie so i can give you more accurate information about the contents of it.

one more thing. another reason which was given for the banning of the movie, is that some time ago, the brother of the husband of the sister of the adopted son of Muhammad Bachri's step sister was arrested for terrorist activity (this isn't of course the true relations between the two, but they are extremely distant relatives through marriage).

abstractmentality
20th December 2002, 18:28
Quote: from Blasphemy on 7:39 am on Dec. 20, 2002
killing another person is never legitimate.

my conclusion is this: violence is never a solution. it can't be a solution, even as a part of diplomatic negotiations, because violence is part of the problem, but mainly the hatred, which is fueled by the violence. with every tank that rolls into jenin, and every terrorist shooting at civilians in tel aviv, the chance of a normal life drifts farther and farther away.

i thank you for this. i believe i am as pacifistic as you have displayed yourself to be here.

concerning the censorship of things: two people at my university went to (i think) bethleham this summer to volunteer their time. they said that they had to bring a digital camera, put them on a computer, and email themselves in order to get the pictures, because if they had regular rolls of film, when trying to leave for home on the plane, the rolls would have been exposed to light by somebody at the airport checking bags, making them useless.


(Edited by abstractmentality at 6:26 pm on Dec. 20, 2002)

Non-Sectarian Bastard!
20th December 2002, 20:25
I wanna see the film. So if someone can put it on the internet or something. Tnx for info m8. Militarys break cameras if they know that crimes of them are on it. And considering that crimes are a case of 24/7 for the Israeli army, you can hardly show any films about the real face of the Israel/Palestine conflict.

Panamarisen
20th December 2002, 21:54
I agree with you, Blasphemy, in your first statements of the thread. I think they are really wise.

HASTA LA VICTORIA SIEMPRE!

deimos
20th December 2002, 22:28
Blasphemy, i agree with you!But israel will stop its terror politics soon.I'm working on an essay about israel and i was surprised by the Israeli GDP growth.........The israeli economy suffers from the conflict, and israel will also be wiped out as soon as the US empire falls if they keep on terrorizing ppl like now...
Lets hope that the ppl in Israel will vote for the labour party. I heard that the party has chances again because Likud is accused of some crime, corruption or something like that.
And ofcourse, lets hope that teh palestinians will forget their hatred.

Blasphemy
20th December 2002, 23:09
in the past two months, there were a few things that really changed the way i look at things, and not necessarily for the best. i mean, i'm not as optimistic as i've always been.

i was at another lecture, which was given by two people from the Israeli-Palestinian bereaved families forum. there was an israeli, who lost his daughter in a terrorist attack, and a palestinian who lost both his brothers in the intifada (they were shot by israeli soldiers).

they were talking about how they have decided to dedicate their lives to the making of peace after the horrible tragedies that tore their lives apart. it was a very emotional lecture. but one thing really made it powerful. when they were finished, they were open to question, and the first question which was asked was by a girl who lost her sister just a month ago in a terrorist attack.

she said something i did not expect to hear. she said she has to hate the palestinians, because they took her sister away from her. she can't talk about peace and coexistence, because she suffered in a way we cannot ever begin to comprehend. and i don't think that the palestinian was at all offended. he understood her, and felt compassion, even though she hates him. and i, as someone who did not go through the agony she went through, cannot say a thing, because i have no right to do so. i cannot argue with her. that's why it was so sad, to see how people are capable of hating someone else. i'm not blaming her for her hatred at all, because it's something beyond her. she can't control it. she said what she really feels, and no one has the right to critisize her.

that's the tragedy. i can talk about peace, and protest and do everything in my power, but the sheer hatred is something beyond my reach. she hates them, and there is nothing anyone can do about it. nothing anyone can say about it. she will continue hating, and her hatred will be fueled by the continuing conflict.

Non-Sectarian Bastard!
20th December 2002, 23:15
Powerfull. Makes me think, would I dedicate my life killing "Americans, Pakis, Arabs" if my parents died in Kabul during the Mujahideen attacks.

El Che
21st December 2002, 02:59
Isrealies will end up killing the majority of palestinians and crushing all palestinian resistence. Unless some sort of cataclysm happens. What can you say? What can you do? Not a damn thing. Just sit back and watch the revolting, sickening show.

Comrade Daniel
21st December 2002, 12:36
Isn't there a way to stop the killing on both sides, I don't believe Isralians will stop. Altough I'm believing in a free palstine I don't see much of research on the palestine sides. Who is wrong I don't know but the cruelty has to end one day (doesn't it).

Non-Sectarian Bastard!
21st December 2002, 12:46
How much pressure u put on someone, how more he struggles.

If it really comes so far (let's not hope so) then it means the end of the dialogue that the Israeli people has with the Palestinian. It would mean that Politicians and religious leaders would be the only contact with the other side (shit!) and tja they can tell their own truth to the people.

It would mean more military actions, more suicide actions. And a lot of interference from Captalist countrys and activists.

guerrillaradio
21st December 2002, 14:34
El Che's right. This is the danger of extremism you see. The best that we can hope for is for Mitsna (sp??) to win the next Israeli election, as he is considerably less hardline than Sharon.