White Collar Workers

[workersunity]

What is the Marxian view on White collar workers, the non-manual labor workers, they dont own any means of production, the people like doctors,lawyers, yet most of them live comfortably, Im troubled here.

[Clarksist]

What is the Marxian view on White collar workers, the non-manual labor workers, they dont own any means of production, the people like doctors,lawyers, yet most of them live comfortably, Im troubled here.


That depends.

A doctor who does not own his own practice, a lawyer who does not own his own firm, these are members of the proletariat regardless.

The doctor must see the set amount of patients in a set amount of time, and cannot spend more time personally treating his patients as he may want. The lawyer may be forced to defend a client whom he wishes not to defend.

These cases are cases of exploitation of the worker. They may not seem as extreme as others, but it is still a wrong which can be righted.

Doctors who own their own practice, and lawyers who are head partners in their firms are not limited to the bourgeoisie, however.

As long as they are hiring others and exploiting them, they are. And as long as they own the means of production, or the means of attaining capital, they are not members of the proletariat.

But if they do, they are proletarian workers, and are just a big a part of the revolution as any industrial worker. Che himself was a doctor of medicine before become the revolutionary we know him as today.

[workersunity]

thanks, that covers it up a little bit, i appreciate it, I hope others will give their two cents as well

[Martin Blank]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2005, 11:40 PM
What is the Marxian view on White collar workers, the non-manual labor workers, they dont own any means of production, the people like doctors,lawyers, yet most of them live comfortably, Im troubled here.
First of all, there are two kinds of "white collar workers": petty bourgeois and proletarian.

Proletarian "white collar workers" -- or, as Kim Moody formulated it, "white shirt, blue collar" -- are people like secretaries, clerical staff, telemarketers, call center workers, etc. Petty bourgeois "white collar workers" are professionals who either are, or could just as well be, independent consultants.

Doctors and lawyers are a good example of this. Some kinds of doctors, like D.O.s, usually cannot go off on their own and start their own medical practice. They have no choice but to work for a hospital, clinic or another doctor. These kinds of doctors are highly-skilled workers, akin to journeymen carpenters, plumbers, etc.

Lawyers are a slightly different animal. Their ability to be an independent professional -- a petty bourgeois -- is more dependent on their experience and training than their actual skill level. The class line blurs, but it does not disappear. A lawyer who works in a firm, but is not a "partner", can generally be said to be in a category similar to that of the D.O. mentioned above. Similarly, a lawyer working as an employee of the state falls into the same category.

It should at all times be remembered, however, that among these doctors and lawyers, petty-bourgeois consciousness is quite powerful. The attainment of the position of the independent professional -- the doctor or lawyer with his or her own practice -- is considered the goal of these people, and the thought of spending the rest of their lives selling their labor power scares and angers them. So, there will be a great deal of hostility not only to the idea of siding with the proletariat in struggle, but to being considered akin to a proletarian themselves.

Miles

[workersunity]

Ya Thats pretty much what i said but, it wasnt nearly as well said, thanks Miles for that answer, thats what i was hoping for

[OleMarxco]

Okay, now this has me wonderin' a bit too, but not too much ;)
What 'bout journalist's, artist's, priest's (!), and the like? :P

Sure, the priest's religious, but they do offer services too....
As for the journalist, they do alot of "ground-work" in reportin'
stuff and coverin' event's, as for the artist, well, they're entertainer's
and creators of music. So....what do y'all think? Are they proletar's,
or are they burgerouise!? White-Collar indeed, that's fer sure.

[Donnie]

Priests live off the labour of others. They don't work because they have to praise the god idea 24/7. Priests also have some status of power over the working masses.

[Black Dagger]

Originally posted by CommunistLeague+Sep 14 2005, 05:38 PM--> (CommunistLeague @ Sep 14 2005, 05:38 PM)
[email protected] 13 2005, 11:40 PM
What is the Marxian view on White collar workers, the non-manual labor workers, they dont own any means of production, the people like doctors,lawyers, yet most of them live comfortably, Im troubled here.
First of all, there are two kinds of "white collar workers": petty bourgeois and proletarian.

Proletarian "white collar workers" -- or, as Kim Moody formulated it, "white shirt, blue collar" -- are people like secretaries, clerical staff, telemarketers, call center workers, etc. Petty bourgeois "white collar workers" are professionals who either are, or could just as well be, independent consultants.
[/b]
Mind if you clarify some tings' for me? :)

A school teacher, a proletarian? (White shirt, blue collar).
A uni tutor (i think they're called Teachers Assisants in the US), a proletarian? (White shirt, blue collar).
A uni lecturer, petty bourgeois?

[workersunity]

Most teachers are proletarians of the white-collar type that Miles was talking about, it depends on their circumstances, but most make shit for pay... a university Lecturer, dont the professors do the lecturing so are you talking bout professors, ya white collar proletarians

[Black Dagger]

We dont' use the term 'professors' in oz, or at least no one i know does. I have course lecturers, people who give the lectures, run the courses and are sometimes involved in admin, and then i have tutors who are usually post-grad students, who conduct the tutorials (lil discussion groups things). Although sometimes the course lecturers will also run a tut or two, but there are two defined positions there, course lecturer and tutor. And you're saying that they are both white-shirt blue-collar proles?

[Donnie]

I would consider all teachers ‘intellectual proletariat’. Although the head of departments would be middle class in my eye as they have quiet a lot of power over the rest of the teachers and will probably get better pay.

[workersunity]

Im sorry for the misunderstanding are you in France, or where do you live, I would say the lecturers are those type of proles, The ones involved in managament wouldnt be though

[Martin Blank]

Originally posted by Black [email protected] 14 2005, 02:00 PM
Mind if you clarify some tings' for me? :)

A school teacher, a proletarian? (White shirt, blue collar).
A uni tutor (i think they're called Teachers Assisants in the US), a proletarian? (White shirt, blue collar).
A uni lecturer, petty bourgeois?
I would say that most school teachers are "white shirt, blue collar" workers. This is certainly true for teachers in the elementary and secondary school systems. I would also say that teachers in two-year community colleges also qualify.

Teaching Assistants are usually graduate students working to either help pay for tuition or just make ends meet. So, I would consider them to be part of this section of the working class as well. University lecturers, however, are where you begin to see the division. Non-tenured instructors are probably the highest in this field that can be called working class. Tenured instructors/professors, on the other hand, usually are also the "managers" of other, non-tenured instructors, Teaching Assistants, part-time and adjunct instructors, etc. So, they would be petty-bourgeois, by virtue to their social relations and the subsequent "independence" they have.

Miles

[slim]

Supervisors, regardless of the power or authority they hold, only hold it as a consequence of working for the bourgoise who hold the means of production. Therefore, management and supervisory jobs are only pawns of the bourgoise like the rest of us.

Working class.

[Martin Blank]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14 2005, 04:21 PM
Supervisors, regardless of the power or authority they hold, only hold it as a consequence of working for the bourgoise who hold the means of production. Therefore, management and supervisory jobs are only pawns of the bourgoise like the rest of us.

Working class.
"In countries where modern civilisation has become fully developed, a new class of petty bourgeois has been formed, fluctuating between proletariat and bourgeoisie, and ever renewing itself as a supplementary part of bourgeois society. The individual members of this class, however, are being constantly hurled down into the proletariat by the action of competition, and, as modern industry develops, they even see the moment approaching when they will completely disappear as an independent section of modern society, to be replaced in manufactures, agriculture and commerce, by overlookers (supervisors and managers), bailiffs (policemen, sheriffs, etc.) and shopmen (middlemen, brokers, consultants, bureaucrats, etc.)." (Marx and Engels, "Petty-Bourgeois Socialism", Socialist and Communist Literature, Communist Manifesto (http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/ch03.htm) -- boldface and parentheticals mine)

[HoorayForTheRedBlackandGreen]

The IWW has a branch for computer operations techs, computer network admins, computer programmers, tv/satellite/telephone repair, and other stuff. These guys are wage-slaves too, and I think that the fact that the IWW actually opened a branch for them says a lot.

[Black Dagger]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2005, 08:12 AM
Im sorry for the misunderstanding are you in France, or where do you live, I would say the lecturers are those type of proles, The ones involved in managament wouldnt be though
Are you talking to me? What made you think i live in France? :unsure:
I'm from oz (australia), and am currently living in Aotearoa (new zealand).

and thank you CL for the affirmation.