The bourgeois

[Karl Marx's Camel]

Where did the borgeois get their first foothold, and how many attempts did it take before they finally succeeded in creating a bourgeoisie society?

[Led Zeppelin]

France, three.

[Reds]

Well it could be the US war of independance but you chould always say it was in England with the magna carta and the over throw of the monarcy by th parliment in the English civil war.

[LSD]

Well it could be the US war of independance

No you really couldn't.

The US was still a fundamentally pre-capitalist society untill the mid-nineteenth century. Following the war of independence, American society was still largely based on feudal and mercantalist paradigms.

The institution of slavery which was at the heart of most of her economic progress for the latter half of the seventeenth and beginning of the 19th centuries is directly acapitalist.


but you chould always say it was in England with the magna carta

The actual Magna Carta itself is often overemphasized as some sort of "foundational" document for individual rights. In actuallity, it was nothing but the establishment and emancipation of property. It gave land-holders rights over their land.

In many ways, it marked the beginnings of the end for feudalism, but the landed aristocracy that forced James to sign were by no means bourgeois. They were classical feudal lords, nothing more.

True capitalist production was still hundreds of years away.


and the over throw of the monarcy by th parliment in the English civil war.

And replacing it with Cromwell? Hardly!

1649 may read like 1793, but it wasn't. Replacing a DR king with a military King does not constitute a bourgeois revolution, it constitutes a coup d'êtat. The long Parliament, or more realistically, elements within it, may have been trying for a bourgeois siezure, but it's not what happened.


France

Absolutely.

The first real major victory for the bourgeois came in the French Revolution. It is the first lasting bourgeois win.

Of course, one victory does not translate to the rest of the world. It still took a while before the tendrils of the revolution spread. Spain did not turn until 1808. Germany until the 1870s. Insofar as England, it was a much more gradual process. But certainly by 1815 or so, it was well on its way.

In the US, the real bourgeois revolution didn't come until 1861 and the Civil War. In Russia, it didn't really happen until 1991, although she did have an effective state-bourgeoisie for about 70 years.

[Karl Marx's Camel]

In Russia, it didn't really happen until 1991, although she did have an effective state-bourgeoisie for about 70 years.

But did they not have a capitalist mode of production in the urban areas, before the October revolution? I have read that capitalism had developed in three decades before the revolution came along.

[slim]

I think capitalism in Britain took a strong hold in the 1830's with Chartism.

[Reds]

what about prussia?

[Amusing Scrotum]

I think capitalism in Britain took a strong hold in the 1830's with Chartism.

Pardon my ignorance, but weren't the Chartists the male equivalent of the Suffragets?
If so how exactly did demanding voting rights make Capitalism stronger?

[enigma2517]

But did they not have a capitalist mode of production in the urban areas, before the October revolution? I have read that capitalism had developed in three decades before the revolution came along.

Emphasis on urban.

Russia was mostly a backward, agricultural country at that time.

That proletariat (if you even want to call it that) made up about 5, at the most 10 percent of the entire population.

Change takes place over time, nation-states don't just become capitalist overnight. Russia was heading there, but since the majority of its populace did not yet feel the change its not really valid to say that capitalism existed in Russia, it was still developing.

[Karl Marx's Camel]

Would someone give us a bakground on the failed attempt by the bourgeois, in France?

[slim]

Armchair socialism,

I think that the vote and all the riots that went with it basically got the working class to conform to the bourgoise in a post napoleonic age when tensions were high. If the working class had an opportunity for revolution in the past, that was it. Since then the working class have been largely bribed by the false securties of the vote and the illusion of democracy.