Socialism and Nationalism

[Mr Brightside]

What is the position of people regarding the fight to gain Scottish independance. Many past and present have viewed Scottish independance as a positive move towards socialism as the Scottish people are overall more left-wing than those in England. Scottish independance, it is believed by many, would bring a better platform for socialism than the United Kingdom as a whole, this includes the Scottish Socialist Party today and John Maclean in the early 20th century. However, a significant amount of people on the left see this nationalism as entirely negative as the revolution must be international. Although, Scotland or wherever a similar situation occurs, could be used as a platform for world revolution as Cuba was in earlier days. I'd be intereste to hear people's thoughts on this issue and apolagise if my question is poorly worded or explained.

Thanks :)

[YKTMX]

As a Scot, this topic obviously interests me!


the Scottish people are overall more left-wing than those in England.

Firstly, this is an absolute myth - an invention of nationalists. If you look at all the important indicators; levels of strikes, union membership, etc, the Scottish working class have lagged well behind the rest of the UK.

It comes from a dewey eyed history, whereby Red Clydeside and John MacLean become sort of the "ultimate" in working class radicalism - which is nonsense.

As for the SSP, the only reason they have seats is because the Scottish electoral system is favourable to small parties. That's not to say that the SSP haven't done well, or that they're not a positive force. But the idea that it proves that Scots are somehow instrinsically more militant than their counterparts in the rest of Britain is false.


Although, Scotland or wherever a similar situation occurs, could be used as a platform for world revolution as Cuba was in earlier days

Cuba was never a platform for anything. Che had the same ridicilous assumptions about one country being some sort of staging post in a sea of imperialism - it's rubbish.

Having said all that, n balance, I'm in favour of independence - strictly from an anti-imperialist standpoint. The break up of the British state ought to disorientate the ruling class for some time.

[Mr Brightside]

Do you believe that the SSP would enjoy an increase in support if Scotland did break away from the UK (how much)? Voters would not be inclined to vote labour simply to keep the Tories out as the tories have very little support in Scotland but do have a large support in England. Do you support the SSP to any extent? How effective an organisation do you think the SSP is?

Cheers

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Cuba was never a platform for anything. Che had the same ridicilous assumptions about one country being some sort of staging post in a sea of imperialism - it's rubbish.

What you're saying is "rubbish." Any opening made against imperialism should be wholey supported and upheld and does assist the worldwide working class movement.

This is like saying the October revolution didn't have anything to do with the subsequent revolutions.

[Amusing Scrotum]

Do you believe that the SSP would enjoy an increase in support if Scotland did break away from the UK

Marginal increases at best.


Voters would not be inclined to vote labour simply to keep the Tories out as the tories have very little support in Scotland but do have a large support in England

Living in Wales this statement could easily apply here, however, I live in a Labour stronghold. And trust me, if they put a stuffed donkey up for election, it would win a large majority.
Saying that, my new MP could well be a stuffed donkey, I checked her voting records and shes voted with the Government on everything. To make it worse just after she was elected, she referred to her Socialist beliefs in the local paper.

[YKTMX]

Do you support the SSP to any extent? How effective an organisation do you think the SSP is?


Of course I support them. I vote for them, I go to lots of the meetings and events they organise. Most of their members are very good, working class socialists.

As for them benefitting from Scottish independence, I'm unsure. For one thing, one of their main campaigns would be redundant.

[Mr Brightside]

Originally posted by [email protected] 8 2005, 10:49 PM



I live in a Labour stronghold. And trust me, if they put a stuffed donkey up for election, it would win a large majority.

I know what you mean I live in a place the amost the exact same (the late Robin Cooks seat) and I've actually heard Labour supporters say things to that effect, "I'd vote for Labour if they put a monkey up for election" etc.



Of course I support them. I vote for them, I go to lots of the meetings and events they organise. Most of their members are very good, working class socialists.

Ah well I might have seen you around or may well in future.

[Batman]

http://www.ucc.ie/celt/published/E900002-003/index.html

[bolshevik butcher]

Im scottish as well, abnd i have to say that ths ssps nationalism is somehting that worries me. It's really just an oppertunistic attempt to vote grab off the leftwar leaning snp members. I usppose glasgow's rpetty elft wing in places, but here in edinburgh i dont know if i oculd honestly say that it's paticuarly anymore left wing than some places in england.

[Clarksist]

Okay, good, I thought this was going to justify Nazis. Glad to see its something else. :lol:

I say it would be meaningless to Nationalize Scottland, as no revolution of signifigance will come without revolution.

[Commandante_Ant]

As a Scot, i'd love to see my country throw off the shackles of capitalism and become self-dependent. We have a seperate government but we still require English Help. I am not an active member of the SSP, i'm not even a member but i'm a strong supporter of their aims. I'd like to believe that under nationalization, a leftist party ie the SSP, could come to power. A lot of people i talk to arent interested in politics for the simple fact that it doesnt do anything for them, its not interesting. Get the people involved in politics and you've got a peoples army!

I think in the last election, a large majority of Labour votes came from voters disillusioned at life under Labour...but at the same time realising life is better under Labour than under the dreaded Tories.

Off topic here but is anyone going to the Anti-War protest on the 24th September in Glasgow? I'm gonna go...just wondering if there were any other forum members going.

[bolshevik butcher]

There's a protest on the 24th? I thought thta was only in London. I might go now.

[Mr Brightside]

There is also an event called 'Socialism 2005' happening at Glasgow Caledonian University on the 8-9th October. It's described as "a weekend of discussion, debate, music, film, theatre & entertainment".

Socialism 2005 (http://www.scottishsocialistparty.org/pdfs/soc2005.pdf#search='Socialism%202005')

[bolshevik butcher]

Do you have any more information ont he protest on then 24th? I ahvent seen it advertised anywhere.

[Commandante_Ant]

INTERNATIONAL DAY OF ACTION AGAINST WAR

Saturday September 24th - 12pm till 4pm

Protest against the ongoing slaughter in Iraq outside Borders Bookstore, Buchanan Street, Glasgow

Demonstration called by Fight Racism! Fight Imperialism! as part of the international day of mobilisation against war in Iraq. Across the world, people on this day will demonstrate in the major cities and towns against the ongoing imperialist war in Iraq, from New York, to London, from Havana to Caracas. Join the Glasgow protest, be part of it, tell your friends and families. Now is the time to stand up for justice against war and against Imperialism.


I'm very strongly considering going. Should be good...i think its a still protest instead of a march.

[bolshevik butcher]

Ah ok, sounds good. I'll try and make it.