Independent state of Jeruzalem

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

I am starting this new thread about an idea that I carry with me for a pretty long time.

In history there has been douzens of battles for Jeruzalem. Christians, Jews and Muslims have declared it "holy" and are willing to give their life for the city. Now it sometimes happens that if a muslim wants to pray in Jeruzalem, the acces is denied. What feelings do you think that it calls up by the muslim, his way to "Allah" has been denied by "Jews". With result that another suicide bomber hits an Israeli cafe. When it comes in muslim hands(the city), the Jews and Christians will do the samething if acces is denied to their beloved"god".

To avoid more deaths, oppression and suffering of whole nations, we must make the city independant. Not a Israeli govern, not a Palestinian or any other. The city's has to get the same shape as the Vatican. Independant and meant for praying. So they stop killing more ppl for their stupid gods.

How bout this idea of an independant Jeruzalem. It does mean a whole lot of problems, but eventually the killing hopefully stops.

[Pete]

If jerusalem became a free city much improvement will come to the mid-Eastern situation. I think nationalistic pride will get in the way of this. Doesn't Israel consider jerusalem their true capital? This is complete bullshit I know, and I know you are extremely anti-nationalist comrade, but I believe a war will have to be fought just to free the city. Don't count on American support either. They do whatever Israel wants in the region for the most part.

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

Like I said, there will be some pretty heavy problems. But I want reply's on how to make it possible and what u all think of the idea.

[Pete]

I personally think that it is a good idea for the time being. Make it a Marxist-city-state of somesort. Popular revolution in the 'Holy city'

[BasementAddix]

Quote: from CCCP on 5:40 pm on Dec. 14, 2002


To avoid more deaths, oppression and suffering of whole nations, we must make the city independant. Not a Israeli govern, not a Palestinian or any other. The city's has to get the same shape as the Vatican. Independant and meant for praying. So they stop killing more ppl for their stupid gods.

How bout this idea of an independant Jeruzalem. It does mean a whole lot of problems, but eventually the killing hopefully stops.



holy sh#t...i cant believe im actually agreeing with you...lol...ive thought the same thing for a while now myself...and i think its one of the better ideas out there...

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

The different religions will fight for power of Jerusalem within and outside the city.

[canikickit]

It is a good idea, and I believe it has already been suggested (well, dual government has been, at least). Unfortunatly the world is far too much of a disgusting place, and humanity is too pathetic to allow something like this to happen.

Most religious fundamentalists are so wrapped up in their own opinion, that they could never accept such an "evil" proposal.

[truthaddict11]

i agree with victorcommie i believe it may just lead to more terrorist bombings because of fundalmentalists on both sides

(Edited by truthaddict11 at 8:20 am on Dec. 15, 2002)

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

I am thinking of a sort of commite wich fractions of the 3 religions in it, who lead the city together. But the state Israel, US,Arab country's actually everyone involved in this conflict will protest and maybe even military action will follow. But hopefully the mass, the ppl will see that Hamas, Zionists or any other bullshit are not telling the truth and will revolt against them. And the maincause of the whole Middle-East is religion. Maybe if the leaders of the religions can find peace with each other they can even inspire the mass of doing the same thing.

BasementAddix finaly you see light :biggrin:

[Blasphemy]

you can divide the holy city between the israelis and the palestinians. the jewish quarter and the western wall will be under israeli control, and the temple mount and the rest of the old city to the palestinians.

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

Quote: from Blasphemy on 3:05 pm on Dec. 15, 2002
you can divide the holy city between the israelis and the palestinians. the jewish quarter and the western wall will be under israeli control, and the temple mount and the rest of the old city to the palestinians.

What about Christians and Palestian who want to get to the temple mountain or something else in the Israeli zone to pray??

[Babar]

Independent just means Arabist. Jerusalem would become a haven for Muslim terrorists and as an independent state, Israel couldn't target terrorists within it just as it generally cannot with Hizbollah in Lebanon. I also fail to see how an independent state of Jerusalemites would prevent conflict anywhere in the Middle-East, and in Israel it would just mean the Palestinians would have yet another thing to ***** about, I can see it now “The Jews invade holy city in their Holocaust against the Palestinian people”. If you want to destabilise the region then this is certainly the way to do it.

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

Quote: from Babar on 3:18 pm on Dec. 15, 2002
Independent just means Arabist. Jerusalem would become a haven for Muslim terrorists and as an independent state, Israel couldn't target terrorists within it just as it generally cannot with Hizbollah in Lebanon. I also fail to see how an independent state of Jerusalemites would prevent conflict anywhere in the Middle-East, and in Israel it would just mean the Palestinians would have yet another thing to ***** about, I can see it now “The Jews invade holy city in their Holocaust against the Palestinian people”. If you want to destabilise the region then this is certainly the way to do it.

Wow what an ignorance. It could stabilize the situation in the Middle-East because the maincause of the numerous fights there are caused because of the "holy" city Jeruzalem.

How can independent mean arabist, if I say that the city should be ruled by leaders of the 3 religions involved in this situation.

"Jerusalem would become a haven for Muslim terrorists and as an independent state, Israel couldn't target terrorists within it just as it generally cannot with Hizbollah in Lebanon."

So you think that the military actions of Israel aren't terror. The Palestinian spreads terror with his bombs just like the Israeli (army) does with it's bombs, so why do u call the Palestinian "terrorist" and the Israeli not. Numerous numbers of tanks, infantery, apaches, airplanes to arrest one guy wich usually causes "just a few deaths for the freedom of the Israeli ppl and the world"

Nice and stable region u got mister. Plz read something about the Palestinian side and not just about the Israeli. Bet ur sources are only those lame Captalist media. I read captalist sources and "the real free press".

Read this lame boy http://www.guerrillanews.com/human_rights/doc887.html

[Blasphemy]

Quote: from CCCP on 5:09 pm on Dec. 15, 2002

Quote: from Blasphemy on 3:05 pm on Dec. 15, 2002
you can divide the holy city between the israelis and the palestinians. the jewish quarter and the western wall will be under israeli control, and the temple mount and the rest of the old city to the palestinians.

What about Christians and Palestian who want to get to the temple mountain or something else in the Israeli zone to pray??


christians and muslims will have no reason to go and pray in the israeli zone, for the simple reason that their holy sites will be under palestinian rule. i said the temple mount will be palestinian.

christian/muslim citizens of israel will be allowed to pass freely to the palestinian zone to pray in the holy sites, and then return freely to the israeli zone. divide the area between israel and palestine, and allow free passage from side to side.

[Babar]

“Wow what an ignorance. It could stabilize the situation in the Middle-East because the maincause of the numerous fights there are caused because of the "holy" city Jeruzalem.”

Hamas, the PLO, etc demand that Jerusalem should be part of 'Palestine'. To say that 'the numerous fights' 'there' are caused because of Jerusalem is silly, it's a territorial dispute involving all of what's now Israel. I understand that it’s the Marxist perspective that believes that it’s not a religious conflict and I go along with it, your analysis is far more similar to that of the New Republic than the Socialist Worker.

“How can independent mean arabist, if I say that the city should be ruled by leaders of the 3 religions involved in this situation.”

...simply because it was previously held by a Jewish state. What you're advocating would add to the conflict there is no reason for anything other than an increase of Islamic militancy in Jerusalem under this plan.

“So you think that the military actions of Israel aren't terror.”

The result of Israeli counter-terrorist operations may in part be terror but this is never the intention, nor is the intention even to kill innocent civilians. However, almost all Palestinian attacks against Israel involve the targeting of civilians, the result (and intention) of this of course always being terror.

“The Palestinian spreads terror with his bombs just like the Israeli (army) does with it's bombs, so why do u call the Palestinian "terrorist" and the Israeli not.”

Because it's the intention of Palestinian terrorists to cause terror, it's the intention of the IDF to prevent terror.

“Numerous numbers of tanks, infantery, apaches, airplanes to arrest one guy wich usually causes "just a few deaths for the freedom of the Israeli ppl and the world"”

If Israel wanted to then it could simply carpet bomb any Palestinian town in order to assassinate those who are responsible for terrorism, Israel however doesn't do this - it sends soldiers and sometimes uses helicopters to pin point terrorists. The number of civilians killed could be reduced if Palestinian terrorists stopped using civilians as human shields.

“Nice and stable region u got mister. Plz read something about the Palestinian side and not just about the Israeli. Bet ur sources are only those lame Captalist media. I read captalist sources and "the real free press".

Read this lame boy”

I assume with this you’re trying to tell me I’m misinformed, I’d like to point out that just because someone doesn’t agree with you doesn’t mean they’re misinformed. Or, if I’m so ‘misinformed’ then it should be easy to point out exactly what areas of knowledge I’m lacking, alternatively you could resort to personal attacks.

[Babar]

Oh for God's sake, Temple Mount does not exist - the Romans destroyed it rather a long time ago! How the hell can you claim to know anything about any potential solution if you don't know that?

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

Isn't on temple mountain a few Israeli and Jew monuments??

If not ur idea is fine. From what I know now.

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

Dude....

When a Palestinian is born he doesnt think :"he lets blow up Israeli's and make their lives miserable". Things happen in their lives that they start to hate Israelis.

They commit acts of terror to prevent and/or revenge acts of terror against them. And there are numerous cases inwich Israeli soldiers kill Palestinian without a good reason, if u had read the article u would see it from the other side.

[Babar]

"Isn't on temple mountain a few Israeli and Jew monuments??"

In 70 AD Temple Mount was destroyed by the Romans, Muslims built The Dome of the Rock over it (I think) a few hundred years later, so no it's not a 'Jew monument', Jews are banned from praying at the Dome of the Rock by the Israeli government.

"When a Palestinian is born he doesnt think :"he lets blow up Israeli's and make their lives miserable". Things happen in their lives that they start to hate Israelis."

Palestinians needn't ever see an Israeli in their lives, the hatred comes from indoctrination and admittedly from occupation but occupation could stop within weeks if the Palestinians stopped suicide bombings.

“They commit acts of terror to prevent and/or revenge acts of terror against them. And there are numerous cases inwich Israeli soldiers kill Palestinian without a good reason, if u had read the article u would see it from the other side.”

I've read The Fateful Triangle by Noam Chomsky - I wasn't swayed by that and I'm sure as hell not swayed by that article.

[Blasphemy]

Quote: from CCCP on 10:06 pm on Dec. 15, 2002
Isn't on temple mountain a few Israeli and Jew monuments??

If not ur idea is fine. From what I know now.


there's the western wall, but it's not in the area of the mosques. it can easily be seperated.

[Babar]

Research a little bit on the Oslo accords please.

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

What happens to you when ur mother is beeing murdered?? Hate against the killer?? Hate against the supportives of the killer??

Just about 5% is anti- Jew and what gives Israeli the right to prison the rest because of that 5%.

And gives it u the right to put a whole nation prisoned in refugeecamps for already 40 years just because u are afraid??
And what do those accords mean? Nothing the strongest can break it and when the weakest party breaks it, it gets punished, with the justification that the weaker party broke its agreement.

Take the accord of Geneve. The US of A broke it while they were treathing the Taliban and Al'Qaida. (Everyone knows that there is no one who hate them more than me) Beating them, putting them in way too small cells, no light , no contact to other ppl except the CIA fuckers.

Did anyone do something back?? Why not??




(Edited by CCCP at 5:31 pm on Dec. 16, 2002)

[Blasphemy]

CCCP, the oslo peace accords are the best thing that ever happed to israel, along with the withdrawal from lebanon.

oslo showed and put into practice the willingness of both sides to abandon their arms and work together to create a brighter future for the middle east. according to oslo, both sides recongized the other side's right to exist, and thus opened the way to diplomatic negotiations. under oslo, palestinians living in the cities were somehow released from the occupation, which was suppose to end completely in 1999 according to the agreement.

make no mistake, if rabin was still alive today, oslo would have been completed, and the occupation would have been a thing from the past.

[deimos]

Babar i already saw your terrible posts in the lyceum.

Palestinians needn't ever see an Israeli in their lives, the hatred comes from indoctrination and admittedly from occupation but occupation could stop within weeks if the Palestinians stopped suicide bombings.
why should the Paöestinians stop? The Israelis, or better, the fucking zionists who are among the Israelis, have stoleen the land of the palestinians. They still steal more of palestine every time they build new settlements. The israelis should make the first step, they are responsible for the mess. Its too late to sent the jews out of palestine many of them have been living in Palestine since 1949. They shouldn't be sent away again...But Israel should abolish the Right of "Return"(it should be called "the right to steal someones land")

(Edited by deimos at 7:46 pm on Dec. 16, 2002)

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

Right on!! The only Israelis the common Palestinian has contact with are colonists (wich are mostly zionists) and soldiers. Both very Palestine unfriendly. And isn't Samson's words in the Toran who say:"Let me die with the enemy".

Recently I was watching a documentary about the views of Palestinian after the Israeli actions filled with hatred. Here are some great quotes wich were said by the ppl's there.

-Mother of suicidebomber:
"The victims of the conflict are the people of both nations, victims among the people are just replaceble chickens for the leaders. They would seek for a peacefull solution if they lost a beloved one.

-Palestinian woman:"we will be the next Indians of the world."

-Another Palestinian woman:"In our harts we feel that it's time for Arafat to resign, but due to Sharon and the US we keep on proudly supporting him."

-Palestinian politician:"It's hard to convince Palestinians that Israeli are humanbeeings too, if the only Israelis they see are the colonists and soldiers."

-Israeli filmmaker:"My fear to be killed by a Palestinian doesn't give Sharon the right to lock up the entire Palestinian nation.

-Palestinian psycholog: Every time I see men with their hands against the wall while an Israeli soldier screams at them, every time I see Palestinians getting beaten, waiting infront of a roadblockade I think what is going on in his head?? Is he thinking how to take revenge for the continueing himualiation (or somethin, can't spell, hehe). There is now a feeling of beeing powerless, how would they solve that?? This is called in the psycholigy world "reaction-formation". On of the ways to take revenge is suicide bombing. Sad irony: they think that they are stopping the terror at this way but roadblokkades are a factory for suicidefeelings."

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

To Blasphemy,

like I said and ur piece confirms that: the strongest party decides what happens, no matter if there is a treatment.

[Santa Clara]

I think you should all read some Edward Said, Avi Shlaim and Mark Tessler. My history teacher had us reading them when we studied the conflict.
Back to CCCP's original idea of an independent state. When UN Resolution 141(I think) was passed to create two states in 1948, Israel and Palestine, Jerusalem was actually an international zone under the control of neither Israeli's or Palestinians. In fact, many countries actually still do not recognise the legitimacy of Jerusalem as Israel's capital and have thier embassies in Tel Aviv.
Just thought you'ld all like to know.

[Blasphemy]

i don't think such resolution was ever passed. there was the partition plan, but since the arabs rejected it, i don't think it ever got to the UN. i belive the resolution only talked about a jewish state, but i might be mistaken.

there was resolution 242, but that's from 1967 and about the occupied territories.

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

Actually European and American whites considerd the Jews as a inferior race and I think that it could be possible that something like resolution 141 excisted. Especially when u consider the Brittish and American struggle against the Israeli state. The Brittish navy stopped ships full of jew immigrants and in the us there was/is racism against Jews and other minoritys.

(Edited by CCCP at 5:13 pm on Dec. 17, 2002)

[Blasphemy]

okay, i checked about the resolution. resolution 141 does exist, but it talks about the admission of somalia to the UN.

[Santa Clara]

Sorry, it was resolution 181, and it proposed 'Independent Arab and Jewish States and the Special International Regime for the City of Jerusalem'. It came into force and the Arab's attacked the new Jewish State, that was when they first took over the Occupied Territories. They also occupied Jerusalem, that is the crux of the illegal occupation of Palestinal territory.

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

We could make parts of the city only accesible for muslims or other just for jew or christians. But that only divides the people and it's racism. By making Jeruzalem independant you seperate religion and state. And bring contact under no pressure from a state between common people of the Palestinian and Israeli state.

[Blasphemy]

i just want to make sure that by saying jerusalem, we mean only the old city, and nothing else.

i don't think there is anything racist about it. you divide the city between the two nations, in such a way that believers from both sides will be able to pray in the sites holy to them. inside the old city, no physical segregation is necessary. perhaps the best solution will be to from a dual municipality (was it mentioned in this thread before?), with a jewish mayor and an arab deputy mayor, who will switch places every two years. half of the officials there will be jews, and the other half arabs. that way, the needs of both sides will be kept.

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

I mean racist because ur acces to a place is denied because ur origin and believe. For ur system u need more peace and corperation between the 2 nations. If the Israelis and Palestinian will have a fight they will use their power in the city and that will divide the city again.

[Santa Clara]

You can't divide the city, the old part or the new part. Some sites are holy to all religions. I don't know if it's racist but it wouldn't work. You can't have a municipal council with half arab half jew. You need people who are the best for the job, best able to represent the needs of the community as a whole and that might include Christians, or a majority of Arabs, or a majority of Jews.
It should be made an international state as first envisioned by the United Nations. Well, that's what I think anyway, it might be a stupid idea, but at least we are all putting our thoughts out there.

[KickMcCann]

Most people agree that it would be great if Jerusalem was an independent zone like the Vatican is. And that it could be run by a triumvirate of Jewish, Christian, and Muslim leaders. It would be independent of Israel and Palestine, and all people would have equal rights. It's a great idea, but wouldn't it be even better if that system was expanded to encompass all of Israel and Palestine?

(Edited by KickMcCann at 4:35 am on Dec. 19, 2002)

[Santa Clara]

Wouldn't it be great if the whole world was an 'independent zone'? Where we were truely international? The truth is, that is not easy to accomplish and we start with somewhere that, theoretically, is managable. That is, Jerusalem. Basically, by continuing to bankroll Israel without demanding that the Government adhere to UN resolutions, the USA is perpetuating the cycle of violence and general unrest. But then we all know that.

[Blasphemy]

Quote: from CCCP on 10:21 pm on Dec. 18, 2002
I mean racist because ur acces to a place is denied because ur origin and believe. For ur system u need more peace and corperation between the 2 nations. If the Israelis and Palestinian will have a fight they will use their power in the city and that will divide the city again.


in the old city, there should be a dual municipality, and there will be no physical barriers there. that way, movement insdie the old city will not be limited.

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

Whats municipality(soz for my englishareaq)

[Che Entifada]

It's easy to let Jeruzalem an independent state .. and also it's not easy to divide it to an israeli part and another part for the palestinian ... it should be always one city for all people.

The other thing i want to say .. the is much difference between the person who go to pray there and let the others do that too , and the person who don't allow to the others (from other religions) ..

"When UN Resolution 141(I think) was passed to create two states in 1948, Israel and Palestine, Jerusalem was actually an international zone under the control of neither Israeli's or Palestinians. "
Who gave UN the right to divide palestine into two sections ??! and what was the reason for that ? was it empty or what ?? there werent people living there ?!

Anyways .. NO ONE will be able to find solutions for palestine unless the palestinians (outside and inside palestine) return and share in finding the solution .

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

A few thousand years ago jews were kicked out of Palestine/Israel. Maybe the Palestine take some day revenge by doing the samething.

[RGacky3]

the UN tried to make jerusalem an international land (like antarctica), but the palestinians did'nt agree, I'm sure now they would love that, they should have accepted it. Doing this again would b a great idea, BUT making it an indepentant state would be disasterous, they would fight over if it would be a muslim, jewish, or christian state.

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

Yeah thats the biggest problems: (religious) leaders lying about the other sides. I am sure that if the people would meet and talk to each other in normal circumstances they would agree with peace. But making Jeruzalem a none political, none mililtary zone where people can talk to each other without a Israeli soldier or a Hamas sucker in their back.

[Comrade Daniel]

I understand the problems, but it would be great if Jeruzalem is a international land, when it happens it might just show that fighting for territory isn't needed and 3 religions can share the Holy city... would be fantastic. But how to confess the 3 religions it's a better way to share jeruzalem is difficult.

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

I agree, especially those dickheaded conservatives and religious are in the way.

[kingbee]

it would turn into a nother kashmir if they tried. it would be independent, but both sides would accuse each other of trying to take control, and would only lead to more problems. the vaticans completely different- theres no fighting between religions there!

[Comrade Daniel]

Kingbee, don't you think both sides think they are better of with a independent state?

[Doshka]

first of all though i am not in the least bit relegious i can understand the palestinians refusing to loose it...cant you understand that enough land has been stolen from them...i mean its a good idea buts it really doesnt make an ounce of a difference...the issue is the rest of the land...and the people who said wed devide it towhere the palestinianas basically get only the old city is ridiculous...what is that? 3% of the land? the idea was to look for a fair solution!? oh yeah and CCCP, i really like your ideas...you make sense and thats rare

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

Thanks.

Think Palestinians would be happy. Because this way they can still acces the city, without beeing stopped at 9 checkpoints and dozens of zionists and soldiers holding their finger at the trigger.

One thing we must admit. This can't continue any longer. Israeli's have to admit that they are not the victims in this tragedy and Palestinians musn't choose the side of religion and nationalism in these hard times.

[Doshka]

please specify what you mean by nationalism...i mean after all it is a national issue and my people who are dying for their land to live feel nothing but nationalistic views....they want their rights and their homes back...it would be almost impossible not to feel nationalistic when you have had your land stolen from you

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

With nationalistic I mean that they put getting their land back at first priority and kick the Israeli's off and hate them.

What they must do, in my opinion, is to live with each other. In my eyes the difference between Israeli's and Palestinians is religion. Look at how much they have in common.

[Doshka]

im sorry but though i agree with mos of your oppinions i cannot agree with this one...yes we all have two eyes a nose and a mouth but the simularities between us and the jews stop there. according to the quran we are reletives from sayidna Ibraheem and his two wives but that was AGES ago if it was true to begin with...it doesnt mean anything today...they dont belong on our land...our country is based on people having the same passports and identity..it has nothing to do with relegion whatsoever...it is they who treat people different according to their faith...they claim t have a democratic country yet that stops if you are anything but jewish...jews lived with us long befor israel and we accepted them with open arms...they kill us for fighting for our homes back, we have never takn someones home from them, weve lived in peace fo over 2000 years...please do me a favor comrade and imagine coming home one dayfrom school or university or work(whatever you go to) and not finding it standing? to find it turned into a pile of rubble..to find your mother and sisters raped, your father arrested and your brothers dead...just imagine the rage..it is what we live with everyday...it is our life...if not personally it surrounds us...suffocating us with hate...they are our friends and neighbors..our uncles aunts, our lovers...our people...and they are being humiliated...a boy living with that in him trys to fight back and is called a terrorist

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

I think that the solution is that people must realise that differences between peoples and groups doesn't matter. Because someone lives on the other side of the wall doesn't mean that you can't live with him normally. Everyone is different, realise that, we can't change it, accept it and let someone be as he is.

Btw: I do understand your fear of death, because I am Afgan.

[suffianr]

Co-existence between the Jews, Muslims & Christians did occur once, several centuries ago. But then the Crusades happened, and that pretty much fucked everything up from then onwards.

The key to power within the Gulf states lies in the control over the instability that swamps Palestine; the nation that presides over the conflict, whether in benevolence or in treachery, holds sway over the nations in deadlock. Whilst the Arabs and Israelis are at each others throats, another party may be consolidating its position, enforcing its will upon both besieged parties. No prizes for guessing who this Imperialist power is...

[elisabeth]

This would (in my PERSONAL OPINION) be the best solution anybody could ever think of. Give the Jewish parts of the city to the Jews and the Arabic to the Palestinians and everything should be ok then. The politics should discuss about it...

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

Thats bullshit because, you are seperating people. And something that I definatly want is bring people together.

[Doshka]

another thing is that this city is not only relegious for jews and hristians..but is a symbol for all three relegions...seperating it like that would cause mass relegious riots from the chistians...demanding their share..and even other relegions...also, the jews have made such a huge portion of the city 'jewish' that we would be left with only the old city...east jerusalem is lost completely and so is half of the west...thats not at all a fair solution..

[Doshka]

sorry i meant it is not only relgious for islam and judism in the first sentence of my last post...my bad

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

Thats what I mean, you can't seperate Jeruzalem. And thats why not to give to a nation.

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

Quote: from suffianr on 2:50 am on Jan. 13, 2003
Co-existence between the Jews, Muslims & Christians did occur once, several centuries ago. But then the Crusades happened, and that pretty much fucked everything up from then onwards.

The key to power within the Gulf states lies in the control over the instability that swamps Palestine; the nation that presides over the conflict, whether in benevolence or in treachery, holds sway over the nations in deadlock. Whilst the Arabs and Israelis are at each others throats, another party may be consolidating its position, enforcing its will upon both besieged parties. No prizes for guessing who this Imperialist power is...



Those were the good days for the Islamic civilasation. Womens, Christians, Jews, other Etnic groups, they were all equal. And built the most beautiful things.

[Doshka]

your right...the remains are there today..NOT well kept unfortunatly...but every civilization falls right? i doubt there is any chance for us to rise again

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

I don't think that we must raise again, I am in favor of internationalism.